[OB] A look into the names of the Unmade

[ScavellTane]

Quote

“Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Daigonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it! ”

— Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.^[15]

Here the name Daigonarthis is written in one word, but in Mythica it's written as Dai-Gonarthis.

It leads me to assume that the other un-hyphenated Unmade names are just translation errors.

 

Nergaoul <> Ner-Gaoul

Moelach <> Mo-Elach

Chemoarish <> Che-Moarish

Ashertmarn <> Ashert-Marn

 

This further leads me to taking a closer look at the Order names.

Wind-Runner, Sky-Breaker, Dust-Bringer, Edge-Dancer, Truth-Watcher

Light-Weaver, Else-Caller, Will-Shaper, Stone-Ward(er?), Bond-Smith

 

And so..

 

Ashert-Marn <> Reveling Heart

Che-Moarish <> Dust-Mother [Moarish <> Moash(?)]

Dai-Gonarthis <> Black-Fisher

Mo-Elach <> Death-Rattler(?)

Sja-Anat <> Secret-Taker

Yelig-Nar <> Blight-Wind

 

Ba-Ado-Mishram <> [Void(?)]-Light-??

Ner-Gaoul <> ???

Re-Shephir <> ???

I'm not sure how the title of Midnight Mother fits in, as I see a kind of correlation between Re-Shephir <> Will-Shaper.

 

Non of the Unmade titles may be one-to-one. But considering how names/titles are shaped, it seems like the names of the Unmade could very well be their descriptions and their original purpose.

[Sandra]

I like that theory. Also, could the Unmade's names be in Dawnchant?

Ner-Gaoul could stand for something like Thrill-Giver maybe.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Sandra

[SpeakoftheDeval]

One theory i saw a while ago that I liked was that the number of hyphens in an unmades name indicated their level of sentience- Ba-ado-mishram has two and was a high princess among the voidbringers specifically noted as being keen of mind. On the other side of the spectrum is things like Nergaoul or Ashertmarn who have very limited awareness. Sja-anat seems like an exception because she's very clearly more aware than  Re- shephir but maybe she was designed to be re shephir level and has only recently gained enough sentience to upgrade to two hyphens

The hyphen in the more modern reference to Dai-gonarthis is thus interesting because it could imply that in the millennia since the source of that death rattle was first said, Dai-gonarthis has gained enough sentience to classify as Re-Shephir level.

Id be interested to know if in that scene with Jezrien and Dalinar, when Jezrien says oh so which one of the unmade got you then? Whether he refers to dai gonarthis with a hyphen or without. It wouldn't be particularly strong evidence either way because of the amount of time it's been since Jezrien last fought the fisher.

[The One Who Connects]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:59 AM, ScavellTane said:

Here the name Daigonarthis is written in one word, but in Mythica it's written as Dai-Gonarthis.

It leads me to assume that the other un-hyphenated Unmade names are just translation errors.

It's the Unmade wiki page that's in error. Dai-Gonarthis is hyphenated in the Death Rattles page, Dai-Gonarthis's page, the Epigraphs pages for both books, and within both books themselves.

All other hyphens and lack thereof are correct and have been consistent in every iteration of their names within the books, the wiki, and the WoBs.

[stonedshaman]

This might be a little off topic but does anyone else feel like the title "the black fisher"  is a take on the fisher king and that Dai-Gonarthis' abilities will deal with the weather and life of the land

[.S.A.M.K.M]

Comment with the black fisher, seemed more associated with pain, sadness, grief or even depression.

[stormlore]

It's interesting to me that the names of the unmade are similar to real life pagan dieties.  Molech and Chemosh for example.

[Blazenella]

On 12/18/2017 at 9:15 AM, stonedshaman said:

This might be a little off topic but does anyone else feel like the title "the black fisher"  is a take on the fisher king and that Dai-Gonarthis' abilities will deal with the weather and life of the land

Something really weird is that there is supposedly a plague in the Pure Lake that gets reported after the Battle of Narak, which is when the Unmade show back up. Is this the Black Fisher? The environment fits, as well as the Purelakers "Fake Worship" towards a "God".

[stonedshaman]

Brandon has said that the Purelake plague is actually just the common cold and that it was brought by worldhoppers.. .my guess the ones in the Purelake scene in twok

[.S.A.M.K.M]

The dustmother is totally unknown.

[Toaster Retribution]

On 2017-12-15 at 2:57 PM, Ookla the Deval said:

One theory i saw a while ago that I liked was that the number of hyphens in an unmades name indicated their level of sentience- Ba-ado-mishram has two and was a high princess among the voidbringers specifically noted as being keen of mind. On the other side of the spectrum is things like Nergaoul or Ashertmarn who have very limited awareness. Sja-anat seems like an exception because she's very clearly more aware than  Re- shephir but maybe she was designed to be re shephir level and has only recently gained enough sentience to upgrade to two hyphens

The problem with this is that the level of sentience we saw from Sja-anat was much more remarkable than what we saw from Re-Shepir. Re-Shepir appeared to be more on the Nergaoul level of things, while Sja-anat behaved like a real person. It is a good idea otherwise though, if we only manage to figure Re-Shepir out. 

[SpeakoftheDeval]

21 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The problem with this is that the level of sentience we saw from Sja-anat was much more remarkable than what we saw from Re-Shepir. Re-Shepir appeared to be more on the Nergaoul level of things, while Sja-anat behaved like a real person. It is a good idea otherwise though, if we only manage to figure Re-Shepir out. 

Well, like I said, I think its pretty obvious that sja-anat is changing- she can now enlighten true spren as well as lesser and now apparently wants to defect from Team Odium. So I'd say that back in the days of the Desolations she was re shephir level intelligence because they were both designed by Odium to fill a similar place in his void hierarchy- as she's gained intelligence, she's potentially become less voidish. There is even a possibility that she is later given a third part of her name when she properly joins team Urithiru, perhaps because she personally realised this hierarchy and feels like she deserves the honour of a promotion.

Normal single hyphen unmade being re shephir level intelligence is also, the way I see it, supported by Yelig-nar because he doesn't seem particularly aware from the little we have seen of him and if he turns out to have been sentient while we saw him then we only ever see him bonded so he'd have an unnaturally augmented awareness anyway.

[Hempknight]

The name Dai'gonarthis made me wounder if it was like days gone are these maybe another way of saying days gone by. A bit like Re'shaphier being like re shaper. Maybe the weeping is some effect of it. As it happens at the end of the year and washes away the past. Bit far fetched but made me think. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Hempknight

[Hempknight]

On 18/12/2017 at 3:15 PM, stonedshaman said:

This might be a little off topic but does anyone else feel like the title "the black fisher"  is a take on the fisher king and that Dai-Gonarthis' abilities will deal with the weather and life of the land

This would work with my theory of it having something to do with the weeping.

[Angsos]

sja-anat is definitely on the person side of the IQ chart because she's either smart enough to form a complicated trap or she really does want to defect and can successfully lie to Odium. In the audiobook, they don't pronounce the S so why sja-anat have that first letter then.

[Toaster Retribution]

10 hours ago, Hempknight said:

This would work with my theory of it having something to do with the weeping.

The idea is interesting. The Weeping doesn't seem to be very evil though. The only thing it does is take away access to Stormlight for two weeks. And even if you believe that Black Fisher is blocking all the highstorms, he doesn't seem to be good at it. The Stormfather could easily summon one during the Weeping in WoR. Personally, my guess would be that the Weeping is more of a tradition, or a weather pattern. But it is a cool idea, that the BF is behind it.

[Yata]

16 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The idea is interesting. The Weeping doesn't seem to be very evil though. The only thing it does is take away access to Stormlight for two weeks. And even if you believe that Black Fisher is blocking all the highstorms, he doesn't seem to be good at it. The Stormfather could easily summon one during the Weeping in WoR. Personally, my guess would be that the Weeping is more of a tradition, or a weather pattern. But it is a cool idea, that the BF is behind it.

Weeping's rain is also cremless and the crem is influenced by Cultivation so thematically speaking it's possible the Weeping is the timeframe when H&C's Influence is at their min.

But I agree with you, I don't see the Unmade as Weeping's cause

[Hempknight]

True it doesn't seem very evil. But it does have cremless rain. There's no stormlight infusion during the time, and kaladins depression gets a lot worse during the weeping. So it seems to have a weather effect and and affect on the moods of people. just a thought I had. 

[RShara]

6 hours ago, Hempknight said:

True it doesn't seem very evil. But it does have cremless rain. There's no stormlight infusion during the time, and kaladins depression gets a lot worse during the weeping. So it seems to have a weather effect and and affect on the moods of people. just a thought I had. 

Kaladin has Seasonal Affected Disorder.  When there's a lack of sunlight and such, he gets more depressed.

Quote

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

The Weepings--Shallan and Kaladin react very differently to them.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do.

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

It just seems to me that the Weepings feel very close to Cultivation.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The primary thing you’re noticing -- and I'm not going to say there's not any magical influence -- but the primary thing you're noticing is that Kaladin has seasonal affective disorder and Shallan likes the rain. That's the primary thing you're noticing. I like the rain--my wife hates it. My wife gets depressed when it rains and I love when it rains.

source

 

[Hempknight]

Thanks Rshara I'd not seen that before. I used to look at it like weather depression aswell. A crazy theory I had was that the black fisher was caught in one of the perfect gemstones and taken off roshar to a neighbouring planet (maybe Braize) and he effects Roshar in the weeping when the planets are maybe close enough for him to have an effect there. Haha but don't know now I'd  not seen those WOB before. 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Hempknight