[OB] Adolin's sense of moral - Sadeas' murder

[insert_anagram_here]

I haven't been part of the forums when WoR was released so forgive me if this has been done before.

I'd like y'all to give input about Adolin's sense of morality, because frankly I've started believing he doesn't have a personal sense of moral code. We need evidence that he has a conscience and that his actions are drived by his innate sense of right and wrong, and not by social ideals or his family's laws/code.

To clarify, this is not an Adolin bashing thread, I want to see logical arguments and parts in the books.

I know that we do not have a lot of Adolin POV, so that will probably lead to a lot of misleading and assumptions, but either way whatever parts we can use that indicate what drives his sense of moral are most welcome.

EDIT: CLARIFICATION!!!!

My point for making this thread isn't about what you and I think about his morality, but to define where his morality stands. I believe his morality is 'I'd everything to keep the Kholin family in power' and I ask people to give counter examples from the books that show his personal moral code, where he does something that does not give power to the Kholin family, but he does it either way because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

I added the Sadeas murder as a second question, in order to see where people stand in terms of how moral it is to kill an unarmed evil man. If my comments on Sadeas' murder anger you please do not comment on them. We clearly disagree. My point is not to disagree, but to agree on a common ground, which can only be parts from the books.

/CLARIFICATION!!!!

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I'll start with his worst bit. Sadeas' murder.

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As Adolin walked the dark halls of Urithiru, he tried not to show how overwhelmed he felt. The world had just shifted, like a door on its hinges. A few days ago, his causal betrothal had been that of a powerful man to a relatively minor scion of a distant house. Now, Shallan might be the most important person in the world, and he was . . . 
What was he? 

1. He is troubled that the "world has shifted" with the discovery of Urithiru. Specifically his position within society is changing. Is this so important to him that it gives him an identity crisis?

2. He describes himself as being a powerful man being charitable in betrothing "a relatively minor scion of a distant house". Does he stay betrothed because he wants it or because it was initially the charitable, and now socially logical thing to do? 

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Was that Sadeas? 
It was. The highprince stood with a scouting party of his own. Silently, Adolin cursed the wind that had persuaded Sadeas—of all people—to heed the call to come to Urithiru. Everything would have been so much easier if he’d just stayed behind. 
(...)
Sadeas spun, raising his lantern. “Ah, Prince Adolin.” He wore white, which really didn’t help his complexion—the pale color made his ruddy features seem downright bloody by comparison. 

(...)

“It does. Your father will never trust me again, Adolin, and you know it.” Sadeas’s face darkened. “I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.” 
Adolin stood for a moment, staring Sadeas in the eyes, and then something finally snapped. 
That’s it. 

3. He wanted to kill Sadeas beforehand and his presence challenges his sense of control over himself. He even visualizes Sadeas' face as bloody before he murders him. We also have another part before this scene that shows that he wanted to kill Sadeas before, but the only thing stopping him was "it would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin’s father was working so hard to uphold" edit: It was premeditated, not 'in the heat of passion'.

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Adolin grabbed Sadeas by the throat with his unwounded hand, slamming the highprince back against the wall. The look of utter shock on Sadeas’s face amused a part of Adolin, the very small part that wasn’t completely, totally, and irrevocably enraged. 

4. Something clearly snapped within him. It's just not irrevocably enraged. Is there a 'yet' implied here ? Is this foreshadowing to his future?

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Adolin kept hold, but lost his balance. The two of them fell in a jumble, twisting, rolling. This wasn’t the calculated intensity of the dueling grounds, or even the methodical butchery of the battlefield. 

5. This wasn't 'in the heat of passion' but clearly in cold blood. There is no remorse there and he knows it himself as he does it. Removed because I messed up the quoting!

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“My father,” Adolin said with a grunt, sweat from his nose dripping down onto the blade of the knife, “thinks I’m a better man than he is.” He strained, and felt Sadeas’s grip weaken. “Unfortunately for you, he’s wrong.”
Sadeas whimpered. 

6. He thinks he is a worse man than his father. I this the moment of this realization or has he already done other things that made him conclude to this beforehand? Also, we see him placing his father as his moral code. If his father's placement changes, what will that do to him?

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Storms. Had he just done that? Had he just murdered a highprince? 

7. Again he doesn't recognize Sadeas as a person or someone that he personally knows but 'a highprince', that's how society views him. He clearly detaches himself from the connection to the victim.

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A second later, a Shardblade appeared beside Sadeas—his father’s Shardblade. Sadeas was dead. 
(...)
Dazed, he stared at that weapon. Neither man had summoned his Blade for the fight. The weapons might be worth a fortune, but they’d do less good than a rock in such a close-quarters fight. 
Thoughts coming more clearly, Adolin picked up the weapon and stumbled away. He ditched the Blade out a window, dropping it down into one of the planterlike outcroppings of the terrace below. It might be safe there. 

8. He is considering of retrieving the Shardblade later on, either for the fortune, himself or father. I'd personally bet on 'for his father'. 

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Adolin stumbled back to not get blood on his clothing, though his cuffs were already stained.

(...)

After that, he had the presence of mind to cut off his cuffs, remove his chalk mark on the wall by scraping it free with his own Blade, and walk as far away as he could before finding one of his scouting parties and pretending he’d been in that area all along. 

9. He is cool headed enough to not get blood on his clothing, cut off his cuffs and erase all evidence that proved that he was there in the first place. Another evidence of cold blood.

Edited December 8, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
removed point 5 as invalid, rephrasing to make the purpose of this thread clearer

[Willow]

I believe that before OB came out, there was a rough average of 3 threads a week about exactly this subject but it's still interesting.

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

1. He is troubled that the "world has shifted" with the discovery of Urithiru. Specifically his position within society is changing. Is this so important to him that it gives him an identity crisis?

I think Adolin is simply the type of person who knew from a young age what his responsibilities would be, and had accepted those, and was capable of fulfilling them (well). A massive shift such as what happened at the end, where suddenly he is incapable of keeping up would be hard to swallow for someone who puts a lot of his self-worth on his ability to fulfill his duty.

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

5. This wasn't 'in the heat of passion' but clearly in cold blood. There is no remorse there and he knows it himself as he does it.

I'm not sure how you can say this wasn't in the heat of the moment, when the quote you put right before this says he was utterly enraged. When something is done in cold blood, it means something 'is done without feeling or mercy, ruthlessly'. There was definitely feeling there, he was angry at Sadeas stating he was going to try and murder Adolin's family. Regardless of whether it was right of Adolin to do this, this was a snap decision made from a deep emotion (anger).

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

7. Again he doesn't recognize Sadeas as a person or someone that he personally knows but 'a highprince', that's how society views him. He clearly detaches himself from the connection to the victim.

I think this is a connection to earlier thoughts by Adolin. He hates Sadeas, and has wanted to duel him for a long time, to get justice for the wrongs Sadeas did to his family. Only Adolin was never capable of manoeuvring Sadeas into that position, because of Sadeas' place as a highprince. They're above the law in many ways. This action by Adolin goes against all the social Alethi rules Adolin has always kept to so well, which is why Sadeas' position is emphasized (Also Sadeas has never done anything that would make Adolin respect him as a person).

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

8. He is considering of retrieving the Shardblade later on, either for the fortune, himself or father. I'd personally bet on 'for his father'. 

I don't think he's considering that the weapon would be worth a lot, it's just a quote that says 'because something is very valuable (monetarily), doesn't mean it's valuable in all situations (a close quarters fight). I think that when he says it might be safe what he means is it might remain undiscovered, to cover up the murder.

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

9. He is cool headed enough to not get blood on his clothing, cut off his cuffs and erase all evidence that proved that he was there in the first place. Another evidence of cold blood.

This seems more like he went into a state of shock, which could have brought clarity, and calmed him down enough to figure out what he needed to do to remain undiscovered. If he had truly done this in cold blood, he would've probably figured out a method that didn't force him to do some quick damage-control after the murder.

 

About your other point, about Adolin's morals. We've seen at several points in the book that his actions do stem from his innate moral code. As an example, take his defense of the prostitute in Sadeas' camp, when he also met Kaladin for the first time. Adolin broke an appointment with another lighteyes and inconvenienced himself to help a woman that many people would have and did ignore. He saved her, and escorted her to a safer place, without any advantage for himself.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Willow

[insert_anagram_here]

@Willow Thank you for the feedback on Sadeas murder, we agree on a lot of points.

I'd like to discuss whether he has a sense of morality outside of his 'sense of duty as a Kholin and royal family'. For example, if he lost his place as royalty of his nation, or if his Father lost power, or if the social classes of light-eyes/dark-eyes were disbanded, would he still be a moral person?

So you personally believe that 'defense of the prostitute in Sadeas' camp' and 'broke a pre-made appointment with another lighteyes to help a woman' show his personal sense of moral? Also, can you point me into those bits in the books?

 

52 minutes ago, Willow said:

I'm not sure how you can say this wasn't in the heat of the moment, when the quote you put right before this says he was utterly enraged.

You are right! I clearly messed up the quotes there.

The cold blood bit is evident in number 3., because he wanted to kill Sadeas beforehand. But you are right, I'll remove 5. because it's null and void.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Willow]

44 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

So you personally believe that 'defense of the prostitute in Sadeas' camp' and 'broke a pre-made appointment with another lighteyes to help a woman' show his personal sense of moral? Also, can you point me into those bits in the books?

I was building on an argument someone made before OB that Adolin wasn't actually very good at following the codes of war Dalinar forces his sons to follow, and that he very often goes with a more impulsive but moral choice (aka breaking his promise to visit a friend vs helping a woman in need), but I didn't argue (I decided to remove it in my original post without changing the wording of that sentence, oops) or attribute it properly, sorry. The event happened in chapter 46 of the Way of Kings.

There's also his gift of the shards to Kaladin in WoR (early in part 4, but I don't have a physical copy of WoR right now). According to the rules of duelling Adolin holds so high, he is the rightful owner of all the shards, but he chose to give a set to Kaladin, because it wouldn't have felt right otherwise. He also chose to believe Kaladin about Amaram, when everyone else found the idea of Amaram doing anything wrong ridiculous. Adolin did have his suspicions about Amaram, and he knows Kaladin well enough by now that he figures Kaladin wouldn't lie about it, but his action still speaks of a willingness help people, again without personal gain (he also sat in prison for three weeks to support Kaladin), and actually a pretty big personal loss (shards are expensive, as your first post said).

I think we've seen several times that Adolin tries very hard to hold himself to certain conventions society finds important (or which his father, who Adolin respects deeply, finds important). He's a bit of a perfectionist about them, actually (if he comports himself perfectly, he can't disappoint his family), yet at several points he throws them into the wind when he sees a situation he can't ignore, to do what he believes is right.

The fact that he ignores the 'socially accepted thing' to help these people probably means he would still do it even if he lost his position in society. It might even be easier. There's also some intersting information from Oathbringer that we can't discuss here, unfortunately.

 

44 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

The cold blood bit is evident in number 3., because he wanted to kill Sadeas beforehand. But you are right, I'll remove 5. because it's null and void.

I think he definitely wanted to get rid of Sadeas, by which I mean make sure that Sadeas would never be able to harm his family again, for which I can't blame him, after what happened in tWoK. I'm not sure that means killing him. If he could make sure Sadeas was back in Alethkar (disgraced), and lost his influence, I think Adolin would be content. Well, after he got the chance to stomp on Sadeas a few times.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Willow

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, Willow said:

The event happened in chapter 46 of the Way of Kings.

I've found the prostitute bit. It's on location 13481 of the Way of Kings.

After reading it though, I still cannot see Adolin's personal sense of moral here either. He doesn't place himself in danger or against a more powerful person. It could be a public exhibition of power, as he only scared away the Sadeas officer by only summoning his Shardblade. When the prostitute offers him service without charge:

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The young brightlord raised an eyebrow. “Tempting,” he said, “but my father would kill me. He has this thing about the old ways.” 

So he is aware of what happening here will reach his father's ears. He probably did it to show off Kholin power and their ability of upholding the old ways.

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But the man had stepped up to protect the woman.

No, Kaladin told himself forcefully. He was just looking for a way to embarrass one of Sadeas’s officers. Everyone knows there’s tension between the camps. 

Granted Kaladin is prejudiced against light-eyes, but you have to admit that is a sound argument right there.

If Adolin was already suspecting Amaram, it exactly proves that he used Kaladin's testimony as a justification to his suspicion and not because he was kind-hearted enough to believe him. Either way, I want to find this bit and this part: 

1 hour ago, Willow said:

because it wouldn't have felt right otherwise

and this part:

1 hour ago, Willow said:

to support Kaladin

 

1 hour ago, Willow said:

I think he definitely wanted to get rid of Sadeas, by which I mean make sure that Sadeas would never be able to harm his family again, for which I can't blame him, after what happened in tWoK. I'm not sure that means killing him. If he could make sure Sadeas was back in Alethkar (disgraced), and lost his influence, I think Adolin would be content. Well, after he got the chance to stomp on Sadeas a few times.

Currently, I think that Adolin's sense of moral(if you can call it that) is "I'll do anything to keep my family and my father in power". And by anything he means even it breaks his father's code.

But he does try to uphold his father's code, except if he can get away with not to. Not because he feels it's the right thing to do, it's not about Justice, Equity and Good Conscience for him, but because by upholding Dalinar's law, and enforcing it on the rest of society, he makes sure his family stays in power.

I understand the love for his family but I wouldn't kill another person for it. Not even if I could get away with it. That's the kind of sense of moral I think he lacks. The part of you that says 'that's another sentient being, you don't have the right to take it's life'. As you say, I would make sure Sadeas was back in Alethkar (disgraced), and lost his influence, but I would not kill him.

Edited December 8, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Yezrien]

I’ve never weighed in on this issue before, but... doesn’t the murder prove that he is a moral person? He may not follow an external code, but he is clearly driven by a sense of morality. He didn’t kill Sadeas because of a personal grudge, he did it because Sadeas is a deeply immoral person, who explicitly intended to continue hurting good people for his own benefit. The rules and codes of society failed to stop Sadeas’s crimes, so Adolin took the matter into his own hands. It’s vigilante justice, but it’s still justice.

It sounds to me like the real question here is how you define morality. Is it moral to protect good people from bad people, even if that means getting your hands dirty? Or is it moral to obey the law at all times, even when an unjust law allows evil men to get away with murder?

Are you a Windrunner or a Skybreaker? (No wonder those two never got along.)

[king of nowhere]

The original post looks like a huge attempt at using exact words to twist meanings. from the whole context of it, adolin snapped, in a moment of stress, under sadeas' provocations.

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

1. He is troubled that the "world has shifted" with the discovery of Urithiru. Specifically his position within society is changing. Is this so important to him that it gives him an identity crisis?

you take it so lightly. Many other posters argued that such a huge shift into his personal world should have affected him more. it's not about social status, we have seen adolin cares little for it (proof: the way he treats everyone the same, and spoilers from the end of OB). it's about his place in the world.

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2. He describes himself as being a powerful man being charitable in betrothing "a relatively minor scion of a distant house". Does he stay betrothed because he wants it or because it was initially the charitable, and now socially logical thing to do? 

all the times we see him, it's clear he's in love with shallan

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3. He wanted to kill Sadeas beforehand and his presence challenges his sense of control over himself. He even visualizes Sadeas' face as bloody before he murders him. We also have another part before this scene that shows that he wanted to kill Sadeas before, but the only thing stopping him was "it would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin’s father was working so hard to uphold" edit: It was premeditated, not 'in the heat of passion'.

considering what sadeas did (especially at the tower) it would have been strange if adolin had not wanted to kill him. Still, that's not what premeditated means. premeditated would mean that adolin planned to kill sadeas. he didn't (unless you count the plans of cornering him into a duel, which would have been legal according to alethi law anyway). adolin would have liked to kill sadeas, but he never planned for it or took steps to make it happen, except in a duel. that's not what premeditated means.
 

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6. He thinks he is a worse man than his father. I this the moment of this realization or has he already done other things that made him conclude to this beforehand? Also, we see him placing his father as his moral code. If his father's placement changes, what will that do to him?

 

So, from this small remark you would assume proof that he did other bad things in the past that we are not aware of? doesn't look much like an argument. no, adolin simply knows he cannot be as stoic as his father. adolin has always been more hotheaded. as for what would he do if dalinar were to change, do you think the adolin we read about could have condoned dalinar's actions during his warlording days (again, going into this fully would be OB spoilers) if he had known them in full?

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7. Again he doesn't recognize Sadeas as a person or someone that he personally knows but 'a highprince', that's how society views him. He clearly detaches himself from the connection to the victim.

 

this is using one specific word to draw all kinds of conclusions. sadeas is called highprince many times, it does not mean those who call him highprince do not see  him as a person. heck, if adolin had been "I killed sadeas" would you have argued that he gives no respect to social standing because he didn't think of sadeas as highprince?

As far as connection to the victim, adolin think that he killed "sadeas" many times later. and their connection was one of enmity. really, sadeas tried to kill him and his father multiple times, and almost succeeded twice on his father and three times on him. can you really argue that adolin should respect sadeas as a human being?

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9. He is cool headed enough to not get blood on his clothing, cut off his cuffs and erase all evidence that proved that he was there in the first place. Another evidence of cold blood.

adolin is in shock. Also, he is capable of putting aside other considerations and focus on the here and now. it's fairly clear from the way it is written. you can't really take it as evidence of cold blooded murder unless you already reached that conclusion beforehand and are ignoring all the context and the rest of the chapter.

 

Furthermore, I want to call the greatest adolin's expert we have, @maxal: she will do him better justice than me.

[insert_anagram_here]

15 minutes ago, Ookla the Apostate said:

I’ve never weighed in on this issue before, but... doesn’t the murder prove that he is a moral person? He may not follow an external code, but he is clearly driven by a sense of morality. He didn’t kill Sadeas because of a personal grudge, he did it because Sadeas is a deeply immoral person, who explicitly intended to continue hurting good people for his own benefit. The rules and codes of society failed to stop Sadeas’s crimes, so Adolin took the matter into his own hands. It’s vigilante justice, but it’s still justice.

It sounds to me like the real question here is how you define morality. Is it moral to protect good people from bad people, even if that means getting your hands dirty? Or is it moral to obey the law at all times, even when an unjust law allows evil men to get away with murder?

Are you a Windrunner or a Skybreaker? (No wonder those two never got along.)

Killing another person either good or evil is not moral, that's why we have created laws. To incarcerate the evil ones and not necessarily kill them. Otherwise police officers should be allowed to kill on the spot. So no, murdering Sadeas because he was a threat to the Kholin family, clearly is not a moral thing to do. It's not even lawful. He was driven by a sense to protect his family, specifically his father's power. That's what made him snap.

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“I will take this from him. This city, these discoveries. It’s just a setback.” 

The only time I find it moral to kill another person is only in defense of another person, that means that their life is in intimidate danger. But not if you have the choice to stop them without bringing them any harm. Sadeas wasn't even able to defend himself, much less in position to kill anyone. He didn't even say he was going to kill Dalinar, just take his power.

[Willow]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Granted Kaladin is prejudiced against light-eyes, but you have to admit that is a sound argument right there.

Maybe, but though I can't find it now, I believe even Kaladin eventually says that Adolin rescued the woman for another reason than to simply embarrass Sadeas' soldiers. I'll try to find it. Also, in the beginning of that scene, Adolin was clearly trying to be friendly and not make trouble. It was the other soldier who tried to escalate it into a fight, which forced Adolin to summon his shardblade.

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

If Adolin was already suspecting Amaram, it exactly proves that he used Kaladin's testimony as a justification to his suspicion and not because he was kind-hearted enough to believe him. Either way, I want to find this bit and this part: 

There are actually three events here.
1. Adolin believes Kaladin when he says Amaram is a murderer
2. Adolin gives Kaladin a set of the shards he won in the 4 to 1 duel
3. Adolin goes to prison to support Kaladin

The first, Adolin has long had the feeling that Amaram was not quite what he is believed to be (a great general and a great man), so when someone very far below Amaram (far enough that Kaladin could never actually get justice), he decides to believe him (which isn't the easy choice, on the surface, Amaram is perfect and Adolin could very easily ignore this, especially since his father and Amaram are friends.

The second, Adolin technically won all the shards in that duel, but decided to give a set to Kaladin out of a sense of fairness, because Adolin would have been dead without his help, even if he's angry at Kaladin for screwing up their chance to duel Sadeas

The third, Adolin willingly locks himself in prison for three weeks to support someone he didn't actually like all that much before (Kaladin and Adolin definitely spend the first half of WoR being very annoying to each other). Chapter 66 of WoR:

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"What is happening? The king put Dalinar's heir in here?"
"The king didn't have anything to do with it, the jailer said. "Brightlord Adolin insisted. So long as you were in here, he wouldn't leave. We tried to stop him, but the man's a prince. We can't storming make him do anything, not even leave. He locked himself away in the cell and we just had to live with it."
---
Kaladin jogged up to the man. "Why?"
"Didn't seem right, you in here." Adolin said, eyes forward.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Willow

[insert_anagram_here]

11 minutes ago, Willow said:

Chapter 66 of WoR:

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"What is happening? The king put Dalinar's heir in here?"
"The king didn't have anything to do with it, the jailer said. "Brightlord Adolin insisted. So long as you were in here, he wouldn't leave. We tried to stop him, but the man's a prince. We can't storming make him do anything, not even leave. He locked himself away in the cell and we just had to live with it."
---
Kaladin jogged up to the man. "Why?"
"Didn't seem right, you in here." Adolin said, eyes forward.

Thank you! This is exactly what I needed here. I'll read up the whole chapter and get back to you.

@king of nowhereI've read your post and I've added the [OB] prefix if you wish to go explicit on any Oathbringer bits. I'll get back to your post as well in a few hours.

[Yezrien]

 

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Killing another person either good or evil is not moral, that's why we have created laws. To incarcerate the evil ones and not necessarily kill them. Otherwise police officers should be allowed to kill on the spot.

Personally I agree with you. I think killing is wrong, and there’s almost always a more moral alternative. But that’s my code, and perhaps your code. Adolin might live by a different code, a set of morals uniquely shaped by the militaristic culture he lives in. And the fact that he might disagree with me on a few points does not make him immoral or amoral. We can’t impose our own rules on others, or condemn them for not believing exactly as we do. 

Adolin committed murder, which is wrong. He is not a saint. But I don’t think you can declare that he has no moral sense based on legalistic technicalities and subjective definitions. 

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

 So no, murdering Sadeas because he was a threat to the Kholin family, clearly is not a moral thing to do. It's not even lawful. He was driven by a sense to protect his family, specifically his father's power. That's what made him snap.

The only time I find it moral to kill another person is only in defense of another person, that means that their life is in intimidate danger. But not if you have the choice to stop them without bringing them any harm. Sadeas wasn't even able to defend himself, much less in position to kill anyone. He didn't even say he was going to kill Dalinar, just take his power.

I think you’re making assumptions about Adolin’s motives. I don’t think he was just trying to protect his family’s power. There was so much more at stake than just Kholin dominance of Alethi politics. Sadeas was a threat to the monarchy, and the unity of Alethkar itself. By undermining Dalinar, he would have undermined the world’s readiness for a desolation. This doesn’t make the murder defensible, but it makes Adolin’s motives less selfish and petty than you might think they are.

[StormingTexan he/him]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Killing another person either good or evil is not moral, that's why we have created laws. To incarcerate the evil ones and not necessarily kill them. Otherwise police officers should be allowed to kill on the spot. So no, murdering Sadeas because he was a threat to the Kholin family, clearly is not a moral thing to do. It's not even lawful. He was driven by a sense to protect his family, specifically his father's power. That's what made him snap.

So is a police officer killing a criminal who is an eminent threat to him or one of his fellow officers immoral? Now I guess it could be debated that Sadeas was not an eminent threat but I would argue he was even if his eventual attempt AGAIN to kill Dalinar (and possible Adolin) would again be hidden under subterfuge. 

[GoddessIMHO]

Any time we talk of morality we can get bogged down. There are absolutists and relativists. The death penalty argument in our US culture shows that quite well.

Here, we are talking about the in world culture of the Alethi and the constant attempts by one high prince to kill both the other and his heirs. Sadeus also killed many of their loyal soldiers who were the friends and comrades of Adolin. Sadeus is also the man who ruthlessly used the bridgemen as cannon fodder with no thought to them as humans.

You question Adolin's morals for doing this but every in world person not of Sadeus's house responded to the news with "good riddance". And yes, his father wants him to be the anti-Blackthorn while Adolin wants to live up to his father's ideals but doesn't know his father was a brutal vengeful killer before his turn around. Plenty of drama.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

My favorite way to do these discussions is to take the in-world philosophies and apply them to the character's actions. All is taken from WoK 39 Burned Into Her. 

1: Philosophy of Starkness- Kill or be killed: Adolin is exonerated. 

2: Philosophy of Purpose- Actions are not evil, intent is evil. Adolin immediately prior attempts a reconciliation, and then asks why Sadeas is crafting lies. While he mentions that he couldn't stand there looking at Sadeas's smug face, in light of his attempts to assuage Sadeas with logic and conversation, and then this statement, it seems his intentions were to prevent future conflict, and not revenge, imo, and I don't condemn him for it. 

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“Sadeas was a monster. He repeatedly tried to get us killed. His betrayal caused the deaths of many of my friends. When I formally challenged him to a duel, he wiggled out of it. He was smarter than me. Smarter than Father. He’d have won eventually. So I killed him.”

OB 108 Honor's Path

3: Philosophy of Ideals-removing evil is ultimately moral. Sadeas is the one character I've said before is evil and irredeemable, from his role in Rathalas to his refusal to take Parshendi prisoners. This justifies Adolin above all. 

4: Philosophy of Aspiration- Objective must be weighed against method. Removing Sadeas is worthy, everyone agrees. Hoid, Shallan, Dalinar, Navani. "If the goal is worthy, then the steps taken are worthwhile, even if some of them—on their own—are reprehensible."

I also have to agree with this:

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

The original post looks like a huge attempt at using exact words to twist meanings. from the whole context of it,

For example, in the OP, when Adolin mentions the value of the Blades.

 

8 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

8. He is considering of retrieving the Shardblade later on, either for the fortune, himself or father. I'd personally bet on 'for his father'. 

He mentions their value to show the irony that in a fight for their life, neither man attempts to summon their priceless Blades because they are useless for close quarters combat. Adolin has no intentions of retrieving the Blade because there's no way he or his family could ever use it again. I'd go over these scenes again and make sure that you aren't pushing your own interpretations that aren't supported by the texts. For instance, with Shallan, I never interpreted that as Adolin suddenly being intimidated by Shallan's power, but suddenly feeling inferior and as though he no longer has enough to offer her in the relationship.  This is evidenced when he says something similar to what you allege about the charity, immediately curses, apologizes, and demonstrates the problem is his insecurities by saying he's worried he's going to screw it up.

Quote

“I don’t know. You’re a Radiant, Shallan. Some kind of half-divine being from mythology. And all along I was thinking we were giving you a favorable match.” He stood up and started pacing. “Damnation. I didn’t mean to say it like that. I’m sorry. I just … I keep worrying that I’m going to screw this up somehow.”

OB 13 Chaperone

Adolin had never had a reason to doubt his place in the world before. Even with an alcoholic absentee father as his only parent, he was poised, confident, and sure of himself. Now, he's in over his head. It's understandable to not know his place in the world after a lifetime of self assurance based on hard earned competence.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[aemetha he/him]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Apostate said:

Personally I agree with you. I think killing is wrong, and there’s almost always a more moral alternative. But that’s my code, and perhaps your code. Adolin might live by a different code, a set of morals uniquely shaped by the militaristic culture he lives in. And the fact that he might disagree with me on a few points does not make him immoral or amoral. We can’t impose our own rules on others, or condemn them for not believing exactly as we do. 

I'm going to quote my explanation for my argument from another thread here:

Quote

Morality is a subjective cultural norm. It is clear that the murder of Sadeas violates that norm because of the need to conceal the act and the fear of the reaction to the act becoming public knowledge. If the act is immoral, then as a member of that culture the perpetrator of said act should feel remorse over it. Greater good and greater evil don't really factor into it, nor the individuals justifications made to themselves about the act - if they are acting in a manner contrary to the accepted standards of morality without contrition, they are, by definition, immoral in the view of the average member of that culture.

So the thing here is, Adolin doesn't get to decide what is moral and immoral. Those definitions are societal norms, and as I said in that other thread, there is evidence that his act violated those norms. He can be acting in good faith and with good intention, and those acts still be considered immoral, and in fact we see this also in the actions of Taravangian.

[insert_anagram_here]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Apostate said:

Adolin might live by a different code, a set of morals uniquely shaped by the militaristic culture he lives in. And the fact that he might disagree with me on a few points does not make him immoral or amoral. We can’t impose our own rules on others, or condemn them for not believing exactly as we do. 

You are basically saying the same thing I wanted to say, but I've lost my words in the process. We agree that Adolin lives by a different moral code uniquely shaped by the militaristic culture he lives in, where his family happens to be on the top of that power pyramid.

3 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

So is a police officer killing a criminal who is an eminent threat to him or one of his fellow officers immoral?

Not immoral at all, but the criminal needs to be an imminent threat, at least have his weapon out. Sades didn't.

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

proof: the way he treats everyone the same, and spoilers from the end of OB

Please provide exact location in the books.

The rest of your arguments are debatable but beside the point of the thread.

@Ookla the Apostate@GoddessIMHO@Ookla the Obtuse@aemetha@king of nowhere

My point for making this thread isn't about what you and I think about his morality, but to define where his morality stands. I believe his morality is 'I'd everything to keep the Kholin family in power' and I ask people to give counter examples from the books that show his personal moral code, where he does something that does not give power to the Kholin family, but he does it either way because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

I added the Sadeas murder as a second question, in order to see where people stand in terms of how moral it is to kill an unarmed evil man. 

I'll try to make these more obvious in the original post.

Edited December 8, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

5 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I believe his morality is 'I'd everything to keep the Kholin family in power' and I ask people to give counter examples from the books that show his personal moral code, where he does something that does not give power to the Kholin family, but he does it either way because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

In this case, I think you've done a poor job of making the case this is his moral code. Case and point, he weakens his house by admitting to the murder and abdicating the throne, weakening the reputation of the Kholin house overall and then severely undermining the influence of his own branch of the house by returning power to his cousin's side of the family. If he was that concerned with consolidating power for his father, those two actions don't fit. 

[bo.montier]

7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

 

My point for making this thread isn't about what you and I think about his morality, but to define where his morality stands. I believe his morality is 'I'd everything to keep the Kholin family in power' and I ask people to give counter examples from the books that show his personal moral code, where he does something that does not give power to the Kholin family, but he does it either way because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

I added the Sadeas murder as a second question, in order to see where people stand in terms of how moral it is to kill an unarmed evil man. 

I'll try to make these more obvious in the original post.

No shardbearer is ever truly unarmed, but Adolin started the fight. I don't approve of the action; Sadeas should have been tried and killed after being found guilty of treason.

Adolin does a LOT that helps his family, but those actions are also right because, for the most part, his family is on the "moral" or "right" side. They're the good guys.

Now, if they start being the bad guys and he follows them into it, you've got a case.

[Willow]

12 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

My point for making this thread isn't about what you and I think about his morality, but to define where his morality stands. I believe his morality is 'I'd everything to keep the Kholin family in power' and I ask people to give counter examples from the books that show his personal moral code, where he does something that does not give power to the Kholin family, but he does it either way because he thinks it's the right thing to do.

Then you might have to make your point clearer, as I believe a lot of people thought you suggested Adolin didn't have any sort of moral code, and was basically only kept in check by his father making him live by the Codes of War.

Here's your original question (emphasis mine)

9 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'd like y'all to give input about Adolin's sense of morality, because frankly I've started believing he doesn't have a personal sense of moral code. We need evidence that he has a conscience and that his actions are drived not by social ideals or his father's laws/code, but from his innate sense of right and wrong.

That is what you suggest here, by saying you believe he has no personal moral code or sense of morals at all. Saying you need evidence that Adolin has a conscience is a rather leading question, suggesting you think he does not.

If what you wanted was to start a debate as to what Adolin's moral stance is (which accepts he does have one), maybe you can rephrase part of your question?

Edited December 8, 2017 by Willow

[insert_anagram_here]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

In this case, I think you've done a poor job of making the case this is his moral code. Case and point, he weakens his house by admitting to the murder and abdicating the throne, weakening the reputation of the Kholin house overall and then severely undermining the influence of his own branch of the house by returning power to his cousin's side of the family. If he was that concerned with consolidating power for his father, those two actions don't fit. 

Okay, it still seems that noone is getting the point of the thread. I do not want to debate this with you because we obviously disagree on what 'moral' means. That is irrelevant to what I'm asking here. I'm asking for PROOF that he has a personal moral code that does not coincide with his family gaining power.

 

Just now, Willow said:

Then you might have to make your point clearer, as I believe a lot of people thought you suggested Adolin didn't have any sort of moral code, and was basically only kept in check by his father making him live by the Codes of War.

That is what you suggest here, by saying you believe he has no personal moral code or sense of morals at all. Saying you need evidence that Adolin has a conscience is a rather leading question, suggesting you think he does not.

I'm trying to make my point clearer actually, but I seem to constantly fail. I am indeed saying I do not have proof that he has a personal moral code, that does not coincide with his family gaining power. Specifically I need counter examples to my assumption as to prove the bold sentence above as valid. (yeah, I can see how a lot of people get confused here)

[Willow]

11 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm trying to make my point clearer actually, but I seem to constantly fail. I am indeed saying I do not have proof that he has a personal moral code, that does not coincide with his family gaining power.

I like to think I gave a few examples that he does have this moral code earlier in our discussion, where Adolin:
1. Helped a prostitute, pissing off both a lighteyes and other soldiers that belonged to a Highprince his father wanted to build an alliance with
2. Decided to believe a darkeyes over one of his father's most trusted old friends
3. Gave away two priceless and highly valuable weapons that could have done a lot of good for his family
4. Went in against his father's and his king's orders, thus possibly showing weaknesses in the Kholin family to outsiders

These are all cases where he went with his own feeling of what was right over what was the best option for the Kholin family at the time.

I'd like to ask you a counter question. Could you point me to the parts of the books that makes you believe he lacks this personal moral code?

EDIT: to clarify, I'm not sure Sadeas' murder counts. One one hand, it does get Sadeas out of the way. On the other hand, as we've seen in Oathbringer, this has led to Sadeas' army believing Dalinar was responsible for the murder, which could have easily led to a civil war that could have destroyed both the Kholin house and the whole kingdom. Adolin didn't weigh any of these various options either, he just did it because Sadeas' threatened him, he hated Sadeas, and he was enraged.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Willow

[king of nowhere]

Adolin is one of the best person I know. I won't stand for slander about him, even if he's just a fictional character. adolin wants to help people.

and since his family is led by the big good dalinar, then helping people means helping his family 99% of the time. But can you name me a single time where he acted selfishly at the expence of someone else?

Now, to add something willow still hasn't, adolin had never once complained with his father that allying with other highprinces - and giving them good deals for dividing the spoils - would weaken their family. he argued that they may be betrayed, or that they may be belittled, but never once he seemed to complain that others would gain more power than the kholin family. did you ever see him trying to persuade dalinar to make a push for power?

If he wanted power for his family, then bringing in a knight radiant by marriage would be a great move. yet he actually went and told shallan that she'd probably like kaladin more. Are those the actions of somebody out for power?

Edited December 8, 2017 by king of nowhere

[aemetha he/him]

Can I please further clarify?

You are asking for evidence he personally would adjudge his actions to be moral or immoral, which is to say that objectively he isn't amoral as a character trait, rather than whether his actions would be adjudged moral or immoral by the standards of his community?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm asking for PROOF that he has a personal moral code that does not coincide with his family gaining power.

And I'm saying you've failed to prove that his moral code has anything to do with his family's power status whatsoever and that the evidence seems to point that his moral code is actually entirely removed from whether or not his family gains power. 

1: He never argues against doing a shardbearer lead attack for their strategy despite the fact that it puts the two most prominent members of the Kholin house, and their priceless weapons in danger, and does so to protect the lives of those his house serves, exactly the opposite of Sadease, who's moral code is to increase his house's power. 

Quote

“You never complain about the way we attack,” Dalinar said, eyes still closed. “You never challenge me on this.”

“This is the best way. They’re my men too. What is the point of being a Shardbearer if we cannot lead the charge?”

It'd be easy to throw away lives to secure his safety and the power of his house. He doesn't see a problem with doing things the other way.

2: He puts his dueling career, which could win his family shards, prestige, and influence, on hold, for his father. If his morality was strictly based on bringing power to his family, he would rebel against actions his father takes that goes against that and duel to gain power. He doesn't. 

3: Affability with darkeyes. There's no reason for a lighteyed man obsessed with privilege and power to connect as Adolin does with the lowborn. Compare how Adolin connects to the darkeyes with how Amaram does. Adolin jokes and goes drinking with them. Amaram addresses them as 'darkborn.' Amaram's morality is that of power, Adolin's is not.

4: Fashion is a game of status in the Shattered Plains. Adolin is good at the game, but withholds from playing, despite the fact that it brings embarrassment to his house, because of his father. If he was only concerned with power for his family, he'd rebel at this as well. 

Quote

“Dalinar,” Sadeas said flatly, “we are highprinces. We represent Alethkar. Many around the world view us as a center of culture and influence. Should I not, therefore, have the right to encourage a proper presentation to the world?”

Quote

“Your father. You’ll ask him about letting the men abandon that dreadfully unfashionable uniform once in a while?” “Well, he’s rather set on the idea,” Adolin said. “Besides, it’s really not that unfashionable.”

Finally, you can't just demand that we prove he has a morality other than one you've not adequately proven he has. If you want us to establish that he has a moral code outside of power for his family, part of that debate is establishing that your argument for that moral code is flawed.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

In this case, I think you've done a poor job of making the case this is his moral code. Case and point, he weakens his house by admitting to the murder and abdicating the throne, weakening the reputation of the Kholin house overall and then severely undermining the influence of his own branch of the house by returning power to his cousin's side of the family. If he was that concerned with consolidating power for his father, those two actions don't fit. 

52 minutes ago, Willow said:

EDIT: to clarify, I'm not sure Sadeas' murder counts. One one hand, it does get Sadeas out of the way. On the other hand, as we've seen in Oathbringer, this has led to Sadeas' army believing Dalinar was responsible for the murder, which could have easily led to a civil war that could have destroyed both the Kholin house and the whole kingdom. Adolin didn't weigh any of these various options either, he just did it because Sadeas' threatened him, he hated Sadeas, and he was enraged.

@Willow@Ookla the Obtuse You are basically saying the same thing, right?

Quote

Dalinar turned, speaking in a harsh whisper. “What? Son, why did you hide this from me?” 
“Because you’re you.” 
Dalinar took a deep breath. “We can fix this,” he said. “We can see that atonement is made. It will hurt our reputation. Storms, this is not what I needed now. Nonetheless, we will fix it.” 
“It’s already fixed. I’m not sorry for what I did—and I’d do it again, right now.” 
“We’ll talk about this further once the coronation—” 
“I’m not going to be king, Father,” Adolin said. He glanced at Shallan, and she nodded to him, then squeezed his hand again. “Didn’t you listen to what I just said? I broke the Codes.” 
“Everyone in this storming country breaks the Codes,” Dalinar said, loudly, then looked over his shoulder. He continued, more softly. “ I broke the Codes hundreds of times. You don’t have to be perfect, you only have to do your duty.” 
“ No. I’ll be highprince, but not king. I just . . . no. I don’t want that burden. And before you complain that none of us want it, I’d also be terrible at the job. You think the monarchs would listen to me?” 

He admitted to the murder only to Shallan and Dalinar. The Sadeas army wasn't an ally for a long time now, so there was no reputation to lose there in the first place. They were practically in civil war, that's why he killed Sadeas, to cut the problem from the root. He refuses to be king because he believes he will not do a good job and it will exactly harm the family's reputation. Instead they let Jasnah be a queen because she obviously will do a better job than him. At the end nobody didn't even abdicate the throne, because Elhokar's son is still alive, Jasnah will only be a Queen Regent until he comes of age.

38 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Can I please further clarify?

You are asking for evidence he personally would adjudge his actions to be moral or immoral, which is to say that objectively he isn't amoral as a character trait, rather than whether his actions would be adjudged moral or immoral by the standards of his community?

I'm not sure what the question is to be honest but I'l try to clarify nonetheless. I'm asking for parts in the book where he does a good deed that does not favour his family's influence over the kingdom, but he does it either way because he personally thinks it's the right thing to do. The only example given so far in all these comments is that he stays with Kaladin in jail because it didn't seem right. ( I could still debate that it is in Kholin family favour to gain influence over dark-eyes, but for the sake of the argument, let's say that it's still valid )

Quote

Chapter 66 of WoR:

"What is happening? The king put Dalinar's heir in here?"
"The king didn't have anything to do with it, the jailer said. "Brightlord Adolin insisted. So long as you were in here, he wouldn't leave. We tried to stop him, but the man's a prince. We can't storming make him do anything, not even leave. He locked himself away in the cell and we just had to live with it."
---
Kaladin jogged up to the man. "Why?"
"Didn't seem right, you in here." Adolin said, eyes forward.

21 minutes ago, Ookla the Obtuse said:

Finally, you can't just demand that we prove he has a morality other than one you've not adequately proven he has. If you want us to establish that he has a moral code outside of power for his family, part of that debate is establishing that your argument for that moral code is flawed.

Oh I'm not demanding you to prove anything, I'm only asking for the evidence you base that he has a personal innate sense of moral that doesn't coincide with Kholinar's (and of course Dalinar's) power over the kingdom. If you do not want to participate you might as well ignore my thread.

Edited December 8, 2017 by insert_anagram_here