[OB] Shard Arrows/Archers

[VladJunior]

Not sure if this has come up in the past, but the implications of spren/shards changing forms at the will of the Radiant, coupled with the fact that Shardblades can be thrown by their wielder, leads to rather interesting applications. Maybe Rock will found the first corps of Radiant Archers who have an unlimited supply of Shardarrows. It would be pretty cool to see a company of KR's on a wall shooting out Shardarrows and then re-summoning them once they slice throw the enemy souls only to re-fire them back into the oncoming hordes. They could even increase their arrowhead volume once launched, so that they have a higher chance of slicing through vulnerable parts of the soul. Plus there would be the added benefit that the archers wouldn't have to carry quivers. Their arrows are summoned. 

Other applications come to mind as well. Maybe throw a bunch of spren/shards into a catapult and fire them boulder style at the enemy, then reload/re-summon upon impact.

And don't get me started on what happens once Wax and Wayne show up.... Shardbullets anyone? 

Edited December 4, 2017 by VladJunior

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

If Nahel bonds can grant Shardbows with unlimited arrow supply... well, Odium should count himself lucky that Legolas ain't in the Cosmere...

[aemetha he/him]

The problem with the shard bow and arrows idea is that we have no evidence that a spren can split themselves in two. With a bow and arrow, the bow needs to be special in order for it to have power and accuracy, while the arrow needs to be special in order to have the penetration and effect of a shard weapon. So, in all likelihood he would need two spren to achieve it.

However, we do have some suggestion that shardplate is formed of lesser radiant spren. I wonder if there is a possibility of a higher radiant spren forming the weapon, and a lesser radiant spren forming the ammunition?

[Calderis he/him]

I will say this in every ranged shard weapon thread until the end of time. Chakrams. 

Throw a 3 foot wide bladed ring. Resummon. Repeat. 

Win. 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

19 minutes ago, aemetha said:

The problem with the shard bow and arrows idea is that we have no evidence that a spren can split themselves in two. With a bow and arrow, the bow needs to be special in order for it to have power and accuracy, while the arrow needs to be special in order to have the penetration and effect of a shard weapon. So, in all likelihood he would need two spren to achieve it.

However, we do have some suggestion that shardplate is formed of lesser radiant spren. I wonder if there is a possibility of a higher radiant spren forming the weapon, and a lesser radiant spren forming the ammunition?

See, here's the beauty of it. You already have mundane shardbows. You just need arrows. The spren just needs to be an infinitely returning arrow. The reason I say this is that with plate, drawing the bow is no problem. The bow does not necessarily need to be made of spren. We see from Rock that it is perfectly possible to get a high degree of power and accuracy with what they already have. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Yea, arrows aren't actually all that good when I put any thought into it.

• Shardarrows would slide right through a living enemy, so there's no impact force imparted into the target.
• Arrowheads are just too small to consistently cut the "core" of a limb, especially on a moving target. And especially on larger targets like Chasmfiends/Thunderclasts.
• Center-mass is lovely with real bullets, but I don't see a gut wound from a Shardblade doing much of anything. There wouldn't even be internal bleeding.
• Spren have a maximum range that they can go away from their Radiant, so you may as well use throwing knives instead of arrows.
• Community opinion is that Spren can only change their weapon-form when in physical contact with their KR. So no expanding arrows(not that those would work anyway, aerodynamics are still a thing, no?)
• I don't know enough about the Fused to posit which of the brain/heart/gemheart is actually vital anymore. I'm curious how "alive" a gemheart is for the purpose of will/won't get cut though.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Yea, arrows aren't actually all that good when I put any thought into it.

• Shardarrows would slide right through a living enemy, so there's no impact force imparted into the target.
• Arrowheads are just too small to consistently cut the "core" of a limb, especially on a moving target. And especially on larger targets like Chasmfiends/Thunderclasts.
• Center-mass is lovely with real bullets, but I don't see a gut wound from a Shardblade doing much of anything. There wouldn't even be internal bleeding.
• Spren have a maximum range that they can go away from their Radiant, so you may as well use throwing knives instead of arrows.
• Community opinion is that Spren can only change their weapon-form when in physical contact with their KR. So no expanding arrows(not that those would work anyway, aerodynamics are still a thing, no?)
• I don't know enough about the Fused to posit which of the brain/heart/gemheart is actually vital anymore. I'm curious how "alive" a gemheart is for the purpose of will/won't get cut though.

So, we don't actually have a max range. We also know that dead blades can hold shape, so it makes sense that arrows could as well. In addition, shardbows are huge. You could probably get away with arrows the size of javelins. At that size, centre-mass is more likely than not to sever the spine. Headshots would also kill instantly, and we know that's possible with the regular shardbows. Also, we know that cutting a gemheart with a shardblade kills fused. Kaladin does it on the wall.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

5 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, we don't actually have a max range.

With exception to the Stormfather, Living Spren can't really go that far away from their Radiant.

Quote

Questioner
Does the spren have to be present for a Surgebinder to have their abilities? Because with Dalinar, the Stormfather won’t be around all the time...

Brandon Sanderson
Good Question! Fortunately, the Stormfather is a little more omnipresent. Normally you’re gonna have to have your spren close, but the Stormfather absorbed... is basically Honor’s cognitive shadow, which means he’s got a connection to a lot of different things, so he’s not bound by a lot of the rules that others are.

---

11 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

We also know that dead blades can hold shape, so it makes sense that arrows could as well.

You've lost me here. What are you trying to say?

12 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

In addition, shardbows are huge. You could probably get away with arrows the size of javelins.. At that size, centre-mass is more likely than not to sever the spine.

At close range, sure. At medium range, maybe. But arrows aren't as near-instant as bullets are. Larger projectiles would travel slower and/or slow down more, not to mention that the arrows for Sadeas' Grandbow didn't appear terribly aerodynamic(IIRC), and all of these make it worse the further out you go. There's also the idea that one should be able to see a javelin flying at them(I'd probably excuse that in the chaos of battle though). Maybe I need to actually read/reread scenes involving the usage of Grandbows, but I'm clearly not as impressed with their capabilities as you seem to be.

Also, aren't arrowheads(the older types anyway) more flattened than round? Depending on the alignment of the arrowhead at the moment of entry, that extra width from being up-sized could be facing up and down, which would miss the spine entirely. You'd probably hit one of the hearts, but I don't remember/know where the gemheart is properly located, so I can't speak to that. (Parshendi still have a normal heart for a circulatory system right? Hoping I'm not misremembering details)

25 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Also, we know that cutting a gemheart with a shardblade kills fused. Kaladin does it on the wall.

So we do. Depending on how changed the various Forms of the Fused and Regals are, the exact location might shift around, but it's good to know nonetheless.

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

• Arrowheads are just too small to consistently cut the "core" of a limb, especially on a moving target. And especially on larger targets like Chasmfiends/Thunderclasts.

So you're saying we need a Shard-trebuchet that can launch a 90kg spren projectile over 300 meters...

[ScavellTane]

The Radiant spren might form the bow, but the lesser spren that forms the shardplate could form the arrows.

Arrow velocity won't be much of an issue for a Windrunner.

Edited December 6, 2017 by ScavellTane

[deddinty]

I would say if there are radiant archers they would have to be really, really good archers who could consistently hit the gemhearts of the fused, and I assume a normal headshot would kill a human still. 

So I feel like Rock and maybe that archer captain who come with existing skills would be good candidates, but new radiants without combat abilities would likely focus on weapons that are quicker to learn, rather than something that would take a lifetime of practice to be useful in battle. 

 

That being said, someone like Rock who can hit gemhearts could do some serious damage to ranged and flying enemies. 

Edited December 6, 2017 by deddinty

[Fulminato he/him]

edgedancer spoiler

Spoiler

“A sword is traditional,” Wyndle said. “But you don’t hafta be one.” “Obviously not,” he said, sounding offended. “I must be metal. There is … a connection between our power, when condensed, and metal. That said, I’ve heard stories of spren becoming bows. I don’t know how they’d make the string. Perhaps the Radiant carried their own string?”

chapter 20

some old knight used shardbow,

Edited December 6, 2017 by Fulminato