[OB] Kaladin's Unusual Arc and a Different Original Oathbringer Endpoint

[Subvisual Haze]

Sorry to keep flogging a dead Ryshadium, but I've always felt like Kaladin's arc in Oathbringer felt incomplete.  Individual perceptions on this will of course vary, but I thought Kaladin's Arc lacked clear direction and the parts didn't combine well to make a greater whole. 

Part 1 give him a central conflict (how to protect everyone/anyone when you identify with both sides of a conflict), and Part 3 ended with a clear failure on his part to protect anyone.  It's the other parts of his story that felt odd though.  Part 2 had no internal POVs for Kaladin, focusing rather on him through the eyes of Bridge 4, which was an interesting change of perspective, and ultimately doesn't detract from the greater narrative as a result.  Part 4 though seemed divorced from the rest of his narrative entirely (journeying through Shadesmar), and Part 5 felt like another character's climax that he was shoehorned into rather than naturally building towards himself.  Please note: I am not upset that Kaladin failed to say his fourth oath or suffered setbacks in general, but rather that his overall book arc felt lacking in clear direction (either positive or negative), and the central conflict that was set up for him (choosing a side in a war) was largely dropped after Part 3.

With that in mind, I was extremely intrigued by this Word of Brandon I saw from the Chicago signing:

Quote

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176-oathbringer-chicago-signing/#e8450

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

From a certain series of books about a prison, by this one author, we learn that authors love to torture their audience. How many nights did you stay up giggling and cackling to yourself with glee over all of the things that happen in Oathbringer? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This is why I’m an insomniac, right? You’re all gonna be miserable. A little fun thing here, when the book was going along, I thought “Maybe I should cut it after Part 3. I gave it to Karen, who's my continuity editor, and she said “If you cut it here, I will strangle you. The fans will not get a chance to do it, because I will do it.” 

For clarity: Part 3 concludes with Kaladin freezing in combat, being unable to choose a side in a conflict when people he cared about were present on both sides, with the ultimate result of Elkohar being killed.  It is the lowest point in Kaladin's arc.

Cutting the book here would have been a huge downer, and would likely have angered and saddened an enormous number of readers...but personally I think it works better as a story arc for Kaladin.  Not all arcs need to be ones of character improvement, you can also have an arc where a character is presented with a challenge and fails.  Ending the story here would be incredibly depressing, but from a literary perspective I think it would have functioned better as a complete arc for Kaladin.

This also helps to explain (to me at least) why Kaladin's adventures in Shadesmar in Part 4 felt like "padding" to his narrative, and Part 5 felt disconnected.  If Part 3 was the original ending to Kaladin's story, Part 4 functions as a "moving characters" section so Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin can now participate in the Part 5 Thaylen City confrontation that was likely originally occurring simultaneously and separate from their own Kholinar conclusion.

As it stands, it appears like Brandon may have tried to soften the blow of Kaladin's failure at the end of Part 3 by extending his story.  Unfortunately this left his arc feeling strangely mixed for me.  Kaladin's arc is neither an arc of failure (since it has so much content added after his lowest point diluting that the emotional impact of that failure), but neither is it an arc of growth since he encounters no major milestones or epiphanies in the final two Parts of the book.  

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Hmm...while I can see your point about Kal's arc, I do want to make a point: this book so is not about Kal. The series has never been about Kal alone. This book was about Dalinar's story, which just couldn't have been finished if the book had ended at Kholinar. 

And i disagree that Parts 4 and 5 don't progress Kal's arc. I think they follow his arc of the first 3 Parts perfectly. In those three, he's set up to fail, and in the next two parts he spends time coming to the realization that he can fail, and that's okay. Just like in Dalinar's arc, he learns that you just have to keep going. Kal isn't all the way there, but that's the point. It's gonna take a lot for him to accept that his failures do not make him a failure. This was the perfect set up for this conflict in the next book(s). 

[Nymeros]

I disagree with everything you said OP. His arc would have felt needlessly truncated had it ended with Elokhar.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Nymeros

[bo.montier]

22 minutes ago, Ookla the StrooklaEZ said:

Hmm...while I can see your point about Kal's arc, I do want to make a point: this book so is not about Kal. The series has never been about Kal alone. This book was about Dalinar's story, which just couldn't have been finished if the book had ended at Kholinar. 

And i disagree that Parts 4 and 5 don't progress Kal's arc. I think they follow his arc of the first 3 Parts perfectly. In those three, he's set up to fail, and in the next two parts he spends time coming to the realization that he can fail, and that's okay. Just like in Dalinar's arc, he learns that you just have to keep going. Kal isn't all the way there, but that's the point. It's gonna take a lot for him to accept that his failures do not make him a failure. This was the perfect set up for this conflict in the next book(s). 

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if, in the year gap between 3 & 4, Kaladin comes to terms with this and says his 4th ideal. (assuming it's along the lines of "I accept that I cannot save everyone...")

[Dreamstorm]

I realize I may be in the minority, but I loved Kaladin in parts four and five.  I connected with Kal's character more in those two parts than in the prior 2.5 books.  It's not that they were the most exciting or awe-inspiring or conclusive, but because they made me relate to him more as a human.  Previously, I felt like although I know there were setbacks for Kal, it was in the context of him being a superhero, even before he got stormlight.  He was a super spearman in Amaram's army, then a super bridgeman, then a super guard, then a super Radiant who was the one being super and seeing all these things no one else saw.  It wasn't so much the failure in Kholinar, but how he reacted after - with vacillation between self-doubt and determination and being a little incoherent in his focus.  The scenes where Syl comforts him after he can't say the fourth oath and when Rock kills Amaram are two of my favorites in the book (maybe favorite Kal scenes in all books.)  Because it made him seems more human (and a 20yo boy at that) and less superhero.  Likely not how most people feel, but his character rose the most in my mind in this book, not due to doing amazing things but instead by becoming way more real.

[bo.montier]

14 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I realize I may be in the minority, but I loved Kaladin in parts four and five.  I connected with Kal's character more in those two parts than in the prior 2.5 books.  It's not that they were the most exciting or awe-inspiring or conclusive, but because they made me relate to him more as a human.  Previously, I felt like although I know there were setbacks for Kal, it was in the context of him being a superhero, even before he got stormlight.  He was a super spearman in Amaram's army, then a super bridgeman, then a super guard, then a super Radiant who was the one being super and seeing all these things no one else saw.  It wasn't so much the failure in Kholinar, but how he reacted after - with vacillation between self-doubt and determination and being a little incoherent in his focus.  The scenes where Syl comforts him after he can't say the fourth oath and when Rock kills Amaram are two of my favorites in the book (maybe favorite Kal scenes in all books.)  Because it made him seems more human (and a 20yo boy at that) and less superhero.  Likely not how most people feel, but his character rose the most in my mind in this book, not due to doing amazing things but instead by becoming way more real.

The closest I came to crying during OB were at this point, and when Dalinar refuses to let Odium give him a way out of responsibility. Kaladin not being able to move forward at that moment, and the touching acceptance of Syl and Adolin...Man. I'm choking up just thinking about it.

Edited December 4, 2017 by bo.montier

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

When I read the final Kaladin scenes, I felt like Brandon had read some of my posts on here, and taken them into account when writing OB (I know that didn't happen, but it felt like it). I have said it time and time again: we can't have Kaladin turning into Ashs Pikachu, and always wind up saving the day. He needs to be saved himself. And he was. One of the best things with the Amaram boss fight was that Kaladin got to do something important, but also something that wasn't more important than what Dalinar or Szeth or Renarin, or anyone else, was doing. He didn't stand out as much as usual, and the fixes my problems with his character. I also liked that he was saved there, at the end. It worked really well. 

So I am quite happy with Kaladins arc in OB.

[Subvisual Haze]

My apologies for not stating my intent for the thread from the start.  We all have our own closely held opinions about Oathbreaker and the parts we did or did not like about it.  We've all voiced them repeatedly across many threads, at great repetitive length.  I was hoping to generate a discussion more specifically related to the revelation that Brandon originally considered ending Oathbringer at the failure in Kholinar (with Thaylen City perhaps occuring concurrently).  Not so much: "no you're wrong", but considering the alternate possibilities that the story could have taken.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

This is why I’m an insomniac, right? You’re all gonna be miserable. A little fun thing here, when the book was going along, I thought “Maybe I should cut it after Part 3. I gave it to Karen, who's my continuity editor, and she said “If you cut it here, I will strangle you. The fans will not get a chance to do it, because I will do it.”

How does knowledge of this change affect your thoughts on Oathbringer?  Would you have enjoyed the story more or less if the book had ended at this point?  What were the advantages or disadvantages of continuing the story after this point?  Would you have attempted to strangle Brandon (as Karen implied) if the story had ended on such a down note?

[bo.montier]

13 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

My apologies for not stating my intent for the thread from the start.  We all have our own closely held opinions about Oathbreaker and the parts we did or did not like about it.  We've all voiced them repeatedly across many threads, at great repetitive length.  I was hoping to generate a discussion more specifically related to the revelation that Brandon originally considered ending Oathbringer at the failure in Kholinar (with Thaylen City perhaps occuring concurrently).  Not so much: "no you're wrong", but considering the alternate possibilities that the story could have taken.

How does knowledge of this change affect your thoughts on Oathbringer?  Would you have enjoyed the story more or less if the book had ended at this point?  What were the advantages or disadvantages of continuing the story after this point?  Would you have attempted to strangle Brandon (as Karen implied) if the story had ended on such a down note?

I see where you're going with that. I think I would have been SUPER dissatisfied, unless promised another book in like 1 year or something. There were too many threads left hanging. I would have been OK with Kaladin's arc ending there for the book, though I think cutting him off at the end of part 4 would have been even more poignant, but not the rest of them. 

I still felt like things were picking up, and it would have been too abrupt for me, though Sanderson is amazing at denouement, so maybe it wouldn't have felt that way.

[StormingTexan he/him]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

When I read the final Kaladin scenes, I felt like Brandon had read some of my posts on here, and taken them into account when writing OB (I know that didn't happen, but it felt like it). I have said it time and time again: we can't have Kaladin turning into Ashs Pikachu, and always wind up saving the day. He needs to be saved himself. And he was. One of the best things with the Amaram boss fight was that Kaladin got to do something important, but also something that wasn't more important than what Dalinar or Szeth or Renarin, or anyone else, was doing. He didn't stand out as much as usual, and the fixes my problems with his character. I also liked that he was saved there, at the end. It worked really well. 

So I am quite happy with Kaladins arc in OB.

I completely agree with this.

Also I do not think this series is supposed to be like WoT where the entire saga basically revolves around Rand saving the world and I think a lot of people feel that is what Kaladin's role is supposed to be. Mainly I think because he is the first flashback character in a great first book. I was actually concerned that Kaladin would outshine Dalinar in this book and was pleasantly surprised that was not the case. 

 

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

My apologies for not stating my intent for the thread from the start.  We all have our own closely held opinions about Oathbreaker and the parts we did or did not like about it.  We've all voiced them repeatedly across many threads, at great repetitive length.  I was hoping to generate a discussion more specifically related to the revelation that Brandon originally considered ending Oathbringer at the failure in Kholinar (with Thaylen City perhaps occuring concurrently).  Not so much: "no you're wrong", but considering the alternate possibilities that the story could have taken.

How does knowledge of this change affect your thoughts on Oathbringer?  Would you have enjoyed the story more or less if the book had ended at this point?  What were the advantages or disadvantages of continuing the story after this point?  Would you have attempted to strangle Brandon (as Karen implied) if the story had ended on such a down note?

I'm thinking this was said tongue in cheek and never a serious consideration. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by StormingTexan

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 hours ago, bo.montier said:

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if, in the year gap between 3 & 4, Kaladin comes to terms with this and says his 4th ideal. (assuming it's along the lines of "I accept that I cannot save everyone...")

I'd much rather see this Ideal in the actual book rather than just be told he finally came to terms with it outside of the book.

@Subvisual Haze If the book ended at Kholinar...I would've been storming pissed. 

[straits]

3 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

For clarity: Part 3 concludes with Kaladin freezing in combat, being unable to choose a side in a conflict when people he cared about were present on both sides, with the ultimate result of Elkohar being killed.  It is the lowest point in Kaladin's arc.

Cutting the book here would have been a huge downer, and would likely have angered and saddened an enormous number of readers...but personally I think it works better as a story arc for Kaladin.  Not all arcs need to be ones of character improvement, you can also have an arc where a character is presented with a challenge and fails.  Ending the story here would be incredibly depressing, but from a literary perspective I think it would have functioned better as a complete arc for Kaladin.

This also helps to explain (to me at least) why Kaladin's adventures in Shadesmar in Part 4 felt like "padding" to his narrative, and Part 5 felt disconnected.  If Part 3 was the original ending to Kaladin's story, Part 4 functions as a "moving characters" section so Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin can now participate in the Part 5 Thaylen City confrontation that was likely originally occurring simultaneously and separate from their own Kholinar conclusion.

As it stands, it appears like Brandon may have tried to soften the blow of Kaladin's failure at the end of Part 3 by extending his story.  Unfortunately this left his arc feeling strangely mixed for me.  Kaladin's arc is neither an arc of failure (since it has so much content added after his lowest point diluting that the emotional impact of that failure), but neither is it an arc of growth since he encounters no major milestones or epiphanies in the final two Parts of the book.  

His freezing in combat is the highest point of his arc, along with his failure to say the words. It is the epiphany you were waiting for, and seemingly missed. He realizes the conflict is not black and white, and he is witnessing good people from both sides die in it, not to mention his PTSD and other combat-related trauma kicking in.

I think you're misusing the metrics of "success" and "failure" for Kaladin's arc and character development. For him, experiencing decision paralysis and actually relying on other people to save him (even with the "final" fight with Amaram), is a huge character development. It is the foundation of the road to his fourth Ideal.

I personally enjoyed reading about his failures and depressive episodes through OB. When you listen to a song, sometimes the silences between notes can be used for great emphasis, and I think that's what Sanderson did with Kaladin's arc in a literary equivalent.

[IllNsickly he/him]

Personally, I love cliffhangers.

I mean REALLY LOVE them. I know, I have a sickness. But a big cliffhanger leaves me excited for what comes next. I guess I don’t mind the wait of 2, 4... ok 8 years is a bit extreme, but the wait between books doesn’t bother me. There is always something else to read.

I may have been dissatisfied with other Character Arcs not going a bit farther, but I would have been perfectly content to leave Kaladin in the courtyard staring at Moash’s back. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by IllNsickly
Seppling

[Nymeros]

7 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

My apologies for not stating my intent for the thread from the start.  We all have our own closely held opinions about Oathbreaker and the parts we did or did not like about it.  We've all voiced them repeatedly across many threads, at great repetitive length.  I was hoping to generate a discussion more specifically related to the revelation that Brandon originally considered ending Oathbringer at the failure in Kholinar (with Thaylen City perhaps occuring concurrently).  Not so much: "no you're wrong", but considering the alternate possibilities that the story could have taken.

How does knowledge of this change affect your thoughts on Oathbringer?  Would you have enjoyed the story more or less if the book had ended at this point?  What were the advantages or disadvantages of continuing the story after this point?  Would you have attempted to strangle Brandon (as Karen implied) if the story had ended on such a down note?

Lol, a passing thought that came to Sanderson as he was writing does not make me pause at all. I don't believe for a 2nd that his outline called for the book to end at that point and that he then just made some fluff up. That's silly imo.

[taliefer]

i disagree, i think Kaladin's arc was once again easily the best part of the book. he is such an interesting character. him having to deal with abject failure was enthralling. if he had cut it off at part 3, i dont know how i would have reacted.

.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Yeah, saying that that was his original end point is quite a stretch. I was definitely more of a "what if..." for him, or an entertaining thought.