[OB] The problem with Adolin

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

9 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I can. What specifically are you interested in?

As far as Jung and Freud goes, I wouldn't say all of their work on personality has been replaced with cognitive psychology, psychodynamic does have modern theories of personality that derives from the work of Jung and Freud. It would be accurate to say that very few psychodynamic practitioners adhere strictly to the theories of Freud and Jung because they simply aren't as accurate and relevant as the modern theories they inspired. Jung in particular is quite popular outside the profession of psychology, because the ideas are relatively easily digested and influential, but they are primarily influencing modern theories rather than dictating professional practice. Stress psychology as I noted has strong influences from the cognitive school of thought which is itself influenced by Descartes philosophy.

It is important to note though, that while there are some disagreements between schools of thought, most of the main schools of thought (psychodynamic, cognitive, behaviourist, humanist, evolutionary) are complimentary rather that contradictory. Psychodynamic for example focuses on motivation (largely unconscious) as a key factor in personality while cognitive focuses on information processing as a key factor in personality. Neither contradicts the other, as personality includes both motivation and information processing.

I don't want to get too off topic, though it can obviously be related back to the situation with Adolin as it already has been, but if we're straying too far feel free to message me and we can discuss it there.

Because Art therapy is often focused on the unconscious, and because Jung was a big influence on many art therapists, a lot of art therapists draw heavily from him. Sand tray, which I love, is almost entirely Jungian in theory.

Jung’s theories actually sit on the border between psychoanalytic and humanistic in many respects. It’s his theory on the psyche that I’ve always been most drawn to, as it resonates with me tremendously. Other aspects I disagree with, or have been disproven.  I also had a strong rapport with a teacher who was a Jungian, so I was influenced in that manner as well.

Obviously, not all art therapist focus on the unconscious. But I haven’t really met any cognitive focused ones. (They exist; they just haven't been my teachers.) 

Most of my training the past few years has focused on using art in different groups and settings. Aside from Jung, only a few others have been more than touched upon.

We probably should continue this in PM. Maybe a three way conversation.

 

[aemetha he/him]

I made a new thread where we can discuss psychology as it relates to SA.

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I really like Adolin. He is a nice guy, even to those who are far beneath him in social status (prostitutes and stable boys), and went to prison with Kaladin because it was the right thing to do. I also like the fact that he is not at all as secure as he pretends to be, and the fact that he has problems with creating close relationships (both with friends and with girls). I am fond of the fact that he has to face being normal in a world where everyone he knows is a magical superbadass. I like how manages to put up a fight against Thunderclasts and Fused even though he lacks magic. I am amazed at how he is constantly willing to risk his life against huge odds, because it has to be done. I am more impressed when Adolin rushes into battle against a Thunderclast than when Kaladin fights Szeth or Amaram. Kaladin is in the same league as the people he fights, but Adolin isn't. He does it anyway, without hesitation, because it is right. He is the guy who keeps himself strong, so that others can be allowed time to be weak. 

I don't think that everyone has to have a huge amount of mental problems, or dark struggles in the past. Sometimes, they can just be good guys who you can look up to, with more "normal" issues. 

[OldFilthyCasual]

I enjoy Adolin for a number of reasons.

He doesn't have any super powers, and this perspective is in my opinion well executed upon to the readers benefit. I would draw a loose parallel to the character Croaker from the black company series. When you have a world in which characters nonchalantly wield neigh-godlike powers, I find it very grounding to observe the awe inspiring events that unfold from the perspective of a character who isn't a superhero.

I identify with his character and his little mentioned struggles. Many speak of Kaladin having lived such a rough life, I don't want to downplay the trauma he's experienced in the past few years, but much of his life was one of relative privilege as well. I don't mean to imply that these two upbringings are in any way comparable, merely that Kaladin has not lived an entire lifetime of abject suffering. His struggles to save and help only to fall short are heart wrenching, but they are relatively recent.

I don't have the exact #'s but I believe Adolin is only 3? years or so older than Kaladin. Maybe this is purely me projecting myself onto a character, but I see Adolin as a person who has spent his entire life feeling inadequate while trying desperately to to find a sense of accomplishment for his own deeds. I try and focus on the fact that he was brought up in the Alethi society; a culture of rank, religion, propriety, and war. His dad is Dalinar, you know, the Blackthorn. The. Blackthorn.

Oh Adolin, that's so cute that you fence well, have you ever engaged in a solo full frontal assault on a fortress? Nice shards, did you earn them in glorious battle like your dad? Oh they were given to you. I heard you handled yourself passably at that fancy party, shame you've never conquered a society of warlords and forged them into a unified kingdom. You talk to your sword? Your dad talks to God. You finally got married, your father did as well...first. It was officiated by a splinter of the Almighty, I heard someone gave a nice speech at yours though... I used to think you were at least a better Alethi than your little brother.. oh wait he glows and sees possible futures and is some awesome new type of super hybrid mega radiant. That really big rock monster that made you feel powerless? It stepped on him and the only result was the monster losing a foot. Good job not quite bleeding to death though.

He has almost his entire life striving toward perfection as a soldier and noble and the only time I recall his efforts being lauded onscreen instead of him being corrected or stripped down was when he was cut loose to duel and earn shards.

I guess I see him as someone who wants to be able to have impact and make the world better, and feels like nothing he does ever adds up to substance.

Honestly, I don't understand how so many people find him bland. I think he has tremendous depth of character, we just haven't spent 800+ pages swimming in just how complicated he is. (I'm looking at you Shallan).

 

[kari-no-sugata]

42 minutes ago, SLNC said:

sigh

I never said, that Adolin is incapable of introspection, @kari-no-sugata, but that everything just seems to miraculously go well for him, which makes his introspection more whiny, than it should be.

Umm, I'm not sure why you think I'm responding to you. That list of quotes and thoughts is something that I'd wanted to post for some time so I used the opportunity of this new thread to post it. I looked back through your posts here but I can't see anything there that particularly connects them to my post.

You make some good points. I think Adolin would consider what happened at Kholinar to be a major failure but it wasn't highlighted much in the text.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Umm, I'm not sure why you think I'm responding to you. That list of quotes and thoughts is something that I'd wanted to post for some time so I used the opportunity of this new thread to post it. I looked back through your posts here but I can't see anything there that particularly connects them to my post.

Because I said, that he doesn't reflect on his past, which could be interpreted as a lack of introspection. Sorry, if I misinterpreted.

5 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

You make some good points. I think Adolin would consider what happened at Kholinar to be a major failure but it wasn't highlighted much in the text.

Yeah. I think, he makes an off-hand comment about it to Kaladin. Something like, "Hey, it was my hometown." IIRC.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[smearedblackink he/him]

Personally I believe that Adolin's character is rather interesting though his POV chapters have yet to really dig into the potential of his character. Adolin is one of the least vocal characters with regard to his specific suffering and psychological issues as of yet. With Adolin we have a character who has a lot of potential though. He is the older brother and, until recently, has had to shoulder almost all of the responsibility of his House. Before the return of the Knights Radiant Adolin's life was pretty much completely decided for him. He would succeed his father, be required to lead his house, lead his armies, produce an heir, and so on.

He sees himself as inferior to his father in just about all regards and living in his father's shadow has tainted his perception of his self-worth. We start to see a bit of his personal wants and needs in so far as his desire to lead his own life and be his own man when he turns down kingship. His inner conflict between his desire to perform his duty and be his own man I think will start to define his character as the story progresses.

With the return of the KR and his father's new position in the world Adolin's life has been turned upside down. He is no longer as relevant as he once was and his position in his family has changed dramatically. He suddenly has much more freedom and can carve out his own path in life. Where once he was bound by duty, he now can pass a lot of that off to other people, including his younger brother Renarin, who has suddenly gone from the sickly youth to a powerful KR. In fact Renarin is not only a KR, but a unique one! This has the potential to make Adolin feel even more unimportant as he used to be idolized by his younger brother, and while that may not necessarily change from Renarin's point of view, it will almost certainly change from Adolin's. 

We're beginning to see Adolin's self-worth diminish as everyone around him changes and become more and more important while he fades into the background. His discussion with Shallan towards the end of OB shows this. He doesn't feel that he has anything to offer Shallan as compared to Kaladin. Initially Shallan came to their relationship with everything to gain, now Shallan is the vastly more important person in their relationship.

Also, I've seen it said that Adolin was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth and that he was sheltered. I would argue that, while he certainly had every advantage, he was anything but sheltered. He was raised in war, expected to fight and risk his life almost daily, and to live up to his father. I think that he is most certainly "damaged", just in a more subtle way, and that we will likely see this affect his personality more and more as the story progresses.

I would like to go on but I already feel like I haven't done a great job of expressing what I wanted to here. It's just about 3am and I need to get up for work soon so I'll have to pick this up again later haha. I hope that I've at least given some of the people who think Adolin is a throw-away character something to consider! Good night

[OldFilthyCasual]

5 minutes ago, smearedblackink said:

He sees himself as inferior to his father in just about all regards and living in his father's shadow has tainted his perception of his self-worth. We start to see a bit of his personal wants and needs in so far as his desire to lead his own life and be his own man when he turns down kingship. His inner conflict between his desire to perform his duty and be his own man I think will start to define his character as the story progresses.

With the return of the KR and his father's new position in the world Adolin's life has been turned upside down. He is no longer as relevant as he once was and his position in his family has changed dramatically. He suddenly has much more freedom and can carve out his own path in life. Where once he was bound by duty, he now can pass a lot of that off to other people, including his younger brother Renarin, who has suddenly gone from the sickly youth to a powerful KR. In fact Renarin is not only a KR, but a unique one! This has the potential to make Adolin feel even more unimportant as he used to be idolized by his younger brother, and while that may not necessarily change from Renarin's point of view, it will almost certainly change from Adolin's. 

We're beginning to see Adolin's self-worth diminish as everyone around him changes and become more and more important while he fades into the background. His discussion with Shallan towards the end of OB shows this. He doesn't feel that he has anything to offer Shallan as compared to Kaladin. Initially Shallan came to their relationship with everything to gain, now Shallan is the vastly more important person in their relationship.

Also, I've seen it said that Adolin was raised with a silver spoon in his mouth and that he was sheltered. I would argue that, while he certainly had every advantage, he was anything but sheltered. He was raised in war, expected to fight and risk his life almost daily, and to live up to his father. I think that he is most certainly "damaged", just in a more subtle way, and that we will likely see this affect his personality more and more as the story progresses.

I feel like our views are similar, and you brought up some of my thoughts in a way I could not articulate at this hour. +1

Cheers!

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, smearedblackink said:

He was raised in war, expected to fight and risk his life almost daily, and to live up to his father. I think that he is most certainly "damaged", just in a more subtle way, and that we will likely see this affect his personality more and more as the story progresses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember him fighting in the Dalinar flashbacks and when the War or Reckoning started, he already was an adult.

22 minutes ago, smearedblackink said:

I hope that I've at least given some of the people who think Adolin is a throw-away character something to consider!

Certainly, and I see the potential, that Adolin has to be a great character, but, due to everything being served to him, this potential is never used. Even his self-worth issues are seemlingly being solved, by him being blessed by fate to have a dead Edgedancer Blade and the right behavior to revive Maya. Something that has never happened before and is extremely hard to do! On paper, this sounds great. A good challenge, but Adolin solves it by just being how he always is... See, what I mean? Everything just comes to him.

Edited December 4, 2017 by SLNC

[insert_anagram_here]

Just because some people have gone through a troubled life but came out stronger, doesn't belittle another person's struggle. I think that is the basis of all human misunderstanding really.

Just because holocaust survivors have gone through more trouble than Kaladin, doesn't make his slavery insignificant. (I'll ignore the fact that we are comparing real life vs fiction)

Just because Kaladin has gone through so much more trouble than Adolin, doesn't make Adolin any less interesting.

Just because Shallan's POV in OB evolves around the Kalladin VS Adolin perspective, doesn't mean that 'we' as readers should fall in the same trend.

I refuse to dismiss one in favor of the other and I refuse to idolize one to the detriment of the other. Can't one just like both of them ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the point. Adolin is interesting because of his duality and that duality is expressed very well already.

His good parts:

1 hour ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

I really like Adolin. He is a nice guy, even to those who are far beneath him in social status (prostitutes and stable boys), and went to prison with Kaladin because it was the right thing to do. I also like the fact that he is not at all as secure as he pretends to be, and the fact that he has problems with creating close relationships (both with friends and with girls). I am fond of the fact that he has to face being normal in a world where everyone he knows is a magical superbadass. I like how manages to put up a fight against Thunderclasts and Fused even though he lacks magic. I am amazed at how he is constantly willing to risk his life against huge odds, because it has to be done. I am more impressed when Adolin rushes into battle against a Thunderclast than when Kaladin fights Szeth or Amaram. Kaladin is in the same league as the people he fights, but Adolin isn't. He does it anyway, without hesitation, because it is right. He is the guy who keeps himself strong, so that others can be allowed time to be weak. 

I don't think that everyone has to have a huge amount of mental problems, or dark struggles in the past. Sometimes, they can just be good guys who you can look up to, with more "normal" issues. 

His bad parts:

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

sigh

I never said, that Adolin is incapable of introspection, @kari-no-sugata, but that everything just seems to miraculously go well for him, which makes his introspection more whiny, than it should be.

He boasts and agrees to a 4v1 duel? Well, good thing, that Kaladin is there to save him.

He's afraid of being king? Well, good thing, that he stabbed Sadeas, because that is exactly why he doesn't become king. Consequences for that? Ah, naw. Just a little scolding by daddy.

He's out of his league? Well, good thing, that everywhere someone is there to save him.

Oh, he has problems with finding a wife? Well, good thing, that his cousin Jasnah has that new ward and arranges a betrothal between them. Heh, and of course it works out.

Oh, he wants to be a Radiant, because he feels insignificant? Awesome! He already has an Edgedancer Blade and, coincidentally, already has just the right behavior to revive said Blade. See what I mean? Everything is arranged for him like a nice dinner plate. He just has to take it.

I want to see how Adolin copes with failure. I want to see how Adolin overcomes challenges. Right now, he's just being dragged along with the story and to provide Kaladin and Shallan a shoulder to cry on, should they need it.

---

Sorry, if I went too heavy on the sarcasm, but that is how I handle such ridiculousness.

And that's what makes him interesting enough to me.

On one hand he is refreshing, since he appears to be the only one without psychological issues and on the other hand, it's that he appears to be the only one without psychological issues. And I see potential here, not for him as a person necessarily, but definitely in becoming far more interesting in character development.

I can't wait to see what BS has in store for him and since some of us have grown to like him, I need to see him redeemed. Both from a disappointed reader's perspective but also for him, to find redemption as a character.

[Calderis he/him]

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Oh, he wants to be a Radiant, because he feels insignificant? Awesome! He already has an Edgedancer Blade and, coincidentally, already has just the right behavior to revive said Blade. See what I mean? Everything is arranged for him like a nice dinner plate. He just has to take it.

Without already having the proper outlook for the blade type, the blade revival plot line wouldn't be possible. I'm sorry you find it convenient and boring, but I don't see how anyone could adapt and conform themselves to fit an idealogical viewpoint for which they have literally no guide. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I'm sorry you find it convenient and boring, but I don't see how anyone could adapt and conform themselves to fit an idealogical viewpoint for which they have literally no guide. 

I find it convenient, that he already has the correct blade type, that fits his behavior. And, that he once again, gets the solution to his self-worth issues just handed to him. I'm as interested as you in the mechanics of the spren revival, but for Adolin's character? It is just plain boring.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

To be fair, it was pointed out in another chat that there are only eight orders that left Blades. Of those, I think there were three that it was determined Adolin could fit. So the odds of him getting a blade of an order he was suited for was fairly high. 

[Aleksiel]

Sometimes characters start low and go high like Kaladin, but that is by no means the only way a character's arc can go and be entertaining. Adolin strifes all his life to be perfect, to be a man his father and house will be proud of. He didn't want to be a soldier, but he does a superb job of it. He kept Shallan focused and Kaladin from staring in one point after the Kholinar disaster. It's true he was mainly the comic relief there, but even the point his tailor is also his most trusted person in the city hints to his issues with establishing close relationship with his peers. 

He has anger issues and he either explodes or takes himself out of the situation completely. He can be very insensitive at times like when he told Shallan Kaladin killed Helaran, but he can also be one of the very few people to notice those who need help and step in like he did for the prostitute. He stayed in prison to support Kal and believed him about Amaram. He wasn't pushed away by Kaladin's initial hostility and insults after that and they are basically bros now.

Adolin is very loving and supportive of his brother. Some of you may consider this should be a given, but note Renarin's condition prevented him from having a similarly respected position in the alethi society, a very conservative society with strict roles one must conform to in order to be respected and accepted. Yet Adolin never shuns Renarin or dissociate with him, never says a mean word to him or think he wished his brother was different. He stood by his father's side when everyone laughed at Dalinar and thought him crazy, even when Adolin himself thought his father was crazy. He is very supportive of the people he loves. He pointed out the need to have Vathah and his men do a job they could take pride in, the whole little speech about not failing the people you command was such a nice moment. He is kind and cares for people in general. He reflected on the Codes and finally agreed with Dalinar why they were necessary. He never grew bitter those close to him became Radiants.

Adolin has a heart of gold and I love him for that. We need more people like him in the world. While I wanted to explore Adolin's darker side, it could have been too much for many readers. There is a need for PoV characters without severe issues so we can have a breath of fresh air from time to time and lighten up.

[PhineasGage]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To be fair, it was pointed out in another chat that there are only eight orders that left Blades. Of those, I think there were three that it was determined Adolin could fit. So the odds of him getting a blade of an order he was suited for was fairly high. 

Yes that was true - even without knowing the exact ratio of different orders to each other. It is also possible that Maya is accidentally altering Adolin in a subtle manner so he resembles her more? We don't know how symbiotic the relationship is. All we know is that "live" spren guide/alter their bonded humans. All Shardbearers may have slight personality tweaks the longer they hold the blade but if they are subtle and change only slowly then it wouldn't appear to be anything extraordinary. 

I too find Adolin pretty boring though. I'd be interested to find out how he might react to losing some free will if he is being altered slightly by Maya. Unlike many, I am less sure an Edgedancer would be ok with murder. I know some orders are ok with it (meh) but I don't think there has been a specific WoB on Edgedancers iirc.

[Awesomness]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I keep coming across this idea that if you are not an emotional wreck after a terrible event you are either ‘unbroken’ or ‘unrealistic.’

I´d like to bring this up.

We have a WOB that says you need to be broken to forge a Nahel Bond. Ever since we keep talking about brokenness, if a character is more or less broken, if they are broken at all or what does it take to break someone; specially when we are talking about Adolin.

We keep comparing characters  when actually there is no ground to compare.

In real life, and I think in SA too, what we call "brokenness" is complicated, every person is a world on they own. Besides, mental issues are a mix of nature and nurture (for instance, there is a lot about Kal´s depression that comes from himself, lots of Shallan´s issues come from her experiences).

It is simplistic, yet is our only fact about the Nahel Bond we can use to theorize... so maybe we should try to keep this in mind when discussing brokenness.

[Aleksiel]

18 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

I´d like to bring this up.

We have a WOB that says you need to be broken to forge a Nahel Bond. Ever since we keep talking about brokenness, if a character is more or less broken, if they are broken at all or what does it take to break someone; specially when we are talking about Adolin.

We keep comparing characters  when actually there is no ground to compare.

In real life, and I think in SA too, what we call "brokenness" is complicated, every person is a world on they own. Besides, mental issues are a mix of nature and nurture (for instance, there is a lot about Kal´s depression that comes from himself, lots of Shallan´s issues come from her experiences).

It is simplistic, yet is our only fact about the Nahel Bond we can use to theorize... so maybe we should try to keep this in mind when discussing brokenness.

And we have this WoB here:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

How was Shallan able to bond with Pattern before she was broken?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

She was open to him even before she went through a lot of that turmoil

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I thought everybody had to be broken in order to...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, that's their philosophy in-world. But I'm not going to say whether it's correct or wrong... I will imply that there are other means as well.

I agree some people tend to take the extreme examples of brokenness and use it as the average bar one has to pass for Radianthood. However, I'd say our perspective on brokenness and judgement on one's spiritweb cracks based on their behavior is imperfect and things are more complicated than it seems at face value. For example there's another WoB saying being too happy can also cause a character to snap. Weighting one's potential for nahel bond based on how they've handled past events emotionally on the surface, and whether those were traumatic enough in comparison to what other surgebinders went through and how they handled it, is not something I agree with.

edit: on second thought I decided to include the whole WoB, not just the second fragment.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

18 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

I´d like to bring this up.

We have a WOB that says you need to be broken to forge a Nahel Bond. Ever since we keep talking about brokenness, if a character is more or less broken, if they are broken at all or what does it take to break someone; specially when we are talking about Adolin.

We keep comparing characters  when actually there is no ground to compare.

In real life, and I think in SA too, what we call "brokenness" is complicated, every person is a world on they own. Besides, mental issues are a mix of nature and nurture (for instance, there is a lot about Kal´s depression that comes from himself, lots of Shallan´s issues come from her experiences).

It is simplistic, yet is our only fact about the Nahel Bond we can use to theorize... so maybe we should try to keep this in mind when discussing brokenness.

 

5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

And we have this WoB here:

I agree some people tend to take the extreme examples of brokenness and use it as the average bar one has to pass for Radianthood. However, I'd say our perspective on brokenness and judgement on one's spiritweb cracks based on their behavior is imperfect and things are more complicated than it seems at face value. For example there's another WoB saying being too happy can also cause a character to snap. Weighting one's potential for nahel bond based on how they've handled past events emotionally on the surface, and whether those were traumatic enough in comparison to what other surgebinders went through and how they handled it, is not something I agree with.

Thank you both so much!! Knowing people who went through much worse, and seeing how they came through relatively unbroken (as in: they were not emotional wrecks) people insisting that ‘broken’ meant ‘major psychological issues’ felt very much like they were devaluating those experiences. So thank you so much for this!

[Awesomness]

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Thank you both so much!! Knowing people who went through much worse, and seeing how they came through relatively unbroken (as in: they were not emotional wrecks) people insisting that ‘broken’ meant ‘major psychological issues’ felt very much like they were devaluating those experiences. So thank you so much for this!

When we discuss the topic here I find it hard to compare with the real world and real messed-up and not-so-messed-up people..  I like to think this term is used as an in world tool, and we are not such dummies in real life

[XenosHg]

I like Adolin and I don't think there's a need to make everyone mentally challenged.

Quoting tv tropes, " consumers of media affected by Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy tend to approach conflict between parties or factions with remarkable indifference; because no matter who wins, the universe will still suck. (And while it would be really nice to see them all lose, that likely isn't going to happen.) In other words, there is nothing at stake. While there is a conflict happening, for all that the audience is concerned there might as well not be because they likely have little reason to care about who wins or loses. "

There must be at least someone unfazed by all the crazyness. If everyone were suffering from past drama, flashback drama, childhood trauma, current drama, killing spouses, killing relatives, killing brothers, mental illness, physical illness, missing limbs, missing memories, horrible childhood, horrible adulthood, horrible luck and having an ugly butt, I'd vote for Odium to storming end their miserable lives already.

And also, Adolin isn't the main character. He's not one of the knights radiant, he's not one of the flashback characters, he's a secondary character, foil to others. Being high-born doesn't require much skill, being beautiful too, or healthy, or having a good teacher. He's a nice person, he looks good, he's funny, and he can fight. And I really don't know why he has so much problems with all the girls he dates. And he's able to just step aside and let his girlfriend take a meaningful decision without dumb things like jealousy. He's immensely likable. (And he has more plot going around him than Cedric Diggory. Thus, I hope that means he's not just there to be killed and make universe worse.)

(edit)
Saying that someone can't be a main character without his own earth-shattering troubles, and saying "He has troubles but I don't acknowledge that they are large enough" is akin to saying that good people aren't allowed to exist. And if they may exist, they cannot do anything meaningful or participate in the plot. It's a common problem nowadays, and also acknowledged. Everything must be gritty and dark. You cannot be a hero, you must be an anti-hero. You can't be someone like Super-man, or Captain america, or All MIght (the most recent and popular animesque take on Superman), whose main reason for doing good is being good. You must be doing good because you accidentally killed your uncle, or watched your parents die, or because you're crazy, immortal and horribly disfigured, so you enjoy stabbing bad guys while they shoot you in the face. That's why the end of Golden and Silver ages and appearance of new and unique darker plots created thousands of shitty off-shoots. Everything must have blood and carnage not because you're painting something original that didn't exist before, but because it's what makes people more excited. Look, he has a vendetta, oooh. Look, he's dark and troubled, ooooh. Look, that guy from the Watchmen has raped 2 generations of the family and probably plans on raping the third one, he's such an engaging fellow!

Edited December 4, 2017 by XenosHg

[Awesomness]

42 minutes ago, XenosHg said:

Saying that someone can't be a main character without his own earth-shattering troubles, and saying "He has troubles but I don't acknowledge that they are large enough" is akin to saying that good people aren't allowed to exist. And if they may exist, they cannot do anything meaningful or participate in the plot. It's a common problem nowadays, and also acknowledged.

mmm my feeling is that some people like Adolin very much and want him to become a Radiant, probably bonding his sword. So they start looking for reasons for him to be broken, or at least to be more complex than he appears to be.

Others are confortable having a normal secondary character, with an interesting perspective but not necessarily developed through trauma.

To me, he seems adorable but bland. I don't mind him being bland, so it´s ok. 

 

[XenosHg]

3 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

mmm my feeling is that some people like Adolin very much and want him to become a Radiant, probably bonding his sword. So they start looking for reasons for him to be broken, or at least to be more complex than he appears to be.

Others are confortable having a normal secondary character, with an interesting perspective but not necessarily developed through trauma.

To me, he seems adorable but bland. I don't mind him being bland, so it´s ok. 

 

I would very much like him to revive and bond his sword, but breaking him now to achieve that will make the whole experience worthless. He'll simply become "just another knight radiant, edgedancer #2, overshadowed by Lift" instead of a person who'd gone and done something unique, that even local gods previously considered impossible. (Not that Stormfather's memory is reliable, with all those retcons of "I suddenly always knew that", of course...)

[aldeayeah]

I see Adolin as a model child who at every point of his life has done what his environment expected of him.

Him deciding that killing Sadeas was OK, no matter what others say, is an important bit of character evolution IMO.

Also his fashion prowess is comedy gold.

Adolin grew into a role - the role of Dalinar's model scion. His identity was shaped by that role, and he was comfortable in it, but as he gets more agency and more relevant choices, he's growing out of it..

Edited December 4, 2017 by aldeayeah

[Aleksiel]

On the topic of brokenness, I'd like to point out Pattern said Shallan 'didn't break, just cracked', which isn't how most read her. I think people tend to underestimate what Adolin has been through because he grew up in a rich household and doesn't openly complain about more than being unfashionable. Part of the Maylaran topic revolves around that if anyone is interested.

editing the link to start at the appropriate page the subject was brought up for convenience.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Foxx she/her]

I really like Adolin and I see a lot of potential with his character. I do agree that his character hasn't had to struggle as much as others to get where they are, but a lot of that is just an effect of how he was raised. He's a Prince and thus, no, he hasn't had to scrape and fight and battle for everything. Part of his character IS the fact that things are just kind of handed to him and he hasn't had to work as hard. You see this when Jasnah brings Shallan to the Shattered Plains and Adolin admits that he likes the idea of someone else picking a wife for him because he seems no good at it and keeps failing. He's grown accustomed to people giving him things and directing him. What I like about him is that, despite this, he's still a decent human being. I think there's a lot to explore there, and a lot that Sanderson just hasn't explored yet. 

Adolin has a lot of potential for me. I feel almost like he's being primed for some really big character moments. We didn't really learn anything about his past up until OB, and now there are some large changes happening in his life that he's going to be forced to deal with. 

The world he's grown so accustom to is radically shifting. It's not going to be a world where he's handed things anymore because he's a lighteyed Prince, it's going to be a world where Radiants are taking control and the cultural norms are thrown off. I'm okay with the fact that he hasn't had major moments of character realization up until this point. He's kind of been a constant, which has been nice given all of the major character shifts happening with others. I feel like with Adolin, you basically know how he's going to react and that's okay (for now). He's a solid and level-headed (for the most part) person, and thus I tend to feel like things just haven't shifted enough to throw him off...yet. 

He's being set up for moments in the future. We've seen that, despite being level-headed and open to new things and changes, he can get overcome with emotion and make self-sabotaging decisions (killing Sadeas) that do more harm than good for his family, even though helping his family was what he was aiming for. I definitely don't think we've seen the end of that storyline. There's a lot to explore there from the standpoint of Adolin taking the "easy way out" by killing Sadeas, thinking it would be best for his family, but not foreseeing the major problems those actions could cause for his family. I think that points to some sense of immaturity within him and the inability to make the tough call and use diplomacy and off-the-battlefield strategy to deal with the problem of Sadeas. We see that Dalinar is much more politically savvy than Adolin, who seems far more comfortable with a sword in hand than anything that has to do with politicking and being a diplomat, and that's why Adolin refuses the Kingship. I also think there's potential to dig into the divide that's there between Dalinar and Adolin, Dalinar doesn't seem willing to recognize that Adolin isn't a very capable diplomat and that could cause issue on down the road. 

To me, Adolin is a good guy who easily could have been a spoiled and rude brat, but isn't. Maya waking up also points to the fact that he is a internally good person. He's solid and not easily shifted (a necessity for battle-trained leaders like him), but where he starts to falter is with dilemmas that can't be solved with a sword. In those moments he looks for an easy way out (killing Sadeas, giving up on Shallan and telling her to be with Kaladin, refusing the Kingship because it's too hard and too much), and I think that's where we're going to start seeing problems for him. 

For now, I'm good with him, and he was one of my favorites in OB because of the arc with Maya and because I can see him being set up for some big moments. He's been that solid constant that has acted as an anchor in the midst of crazy character shifts, and that's fine.

I will get upset if we don't see more out of him in the future. He's starting to face major life-altering events that will throw him off more and more and at some point he's going to have to deal with the reality of these events and come to terms with the fact that not everything has an easy way out or an easy solution.  

Basically, yeah, life has been easy for him and he's grown accustom to that and that's part of who he is, but that just can't continue. And when he's faced with those realizations, and when some of these decisions he's made come back to bite him and those he cares about, I think we'll see some larger character moments from him.