[OB] Rock the Radiant - Theory

[PhineasGage]

Hi all, so I was thinking about Rock, aka "Lunamor" and his use of Stormlight. I apologise if anyone has posted a similar thread - I couldnt see one like it though.

So from OB we get quite a lot of info about Rock which I'll list here.

1. He calls himself Lunamor in his PoV 
2. He is married with children and we meet those people
3. He has lied to Bridge 4 a number of times
4. He can draw Stormlight like any squire of Kaladin's
5. He doesn't seem to bond a spren despite many of Kaladin's top level officers managing it by the end of OB.

So I was thinking that Rock could be a proto-Lightweaver rather than a WR.

So my evidence is pretty complicated. I'll try to put it in as much a chronological order as possible.

1. We see that Rock can "transform" people right from the start. He helps them by making stew for the bridgecrew as one of the first things Kaladin does to get them together. 
2. He is creative - he can sing and he is experimental/creative with cooking. 
3. We don't see him comment on unusual spren (like Elhokar) because he can always see them (he was born able to).
4. He tells stories (like about the Horneaters came to live on the Peaks) and uses them to tell truths in a roundabout way.
5. He met Wit at the Peaks - coincidence?
6. He is clearly lying about being 3rd son in some way though the exact story isn't coming out. It seems that he is lying to himself about this too. "I am a chef" is repeated a lot.
7. He "transforms" 2 different bridge 4 members in his PoV champter - Skar (who benefits from helping Rock draw in stormlight) and Renarin (who he helps by making him realise that he isn't "the wierdest") He also has a good idea about everyone's stories and how to help them as individuals. 
8. He also sees the "tenderness" in Kaladin that isn't something that many comment on - and he's right.
9. He thinks that he is glad that Bridge 4 can't speak Unkalaki because they would find out all the lies he told them.
10. He is horrified after killing Amaram (presumably because he promised he wouldn't fight) and this may suggest a moment of him "breaking" and opening himself up to a spren. 

On top of that, I feel that Lunamor has a somewhat "light" feeling to it. It sounds a bit like Luna (the moon) , or Lumina (latin for lights iirc). He also is a person who can "lighten" Kaladin's mood at times. He is always lit up because he is near the fire etc. He also doesn't like the wind/air the way Kaladin does - he says it is too thick  - light is much less dense than air  

If you read through his PoV chapter with this in mind there are a number of other things that you might spot that might also point in this direction and I'd love some input on this. 

What do y'all think?

[kari-no-sugata]

I like this theory. It'll be interesting to see what such a development would mean for Rock.

It would be interesting to know more about how squires work in terms of Surges and their potential order as a Radiant. If we assume that the squire bond is a human-to-human bond that depends upon the connection between the two (distance + personal closeness) then I don't see any reason why being a squire of a Windrunner precludes one from joining another order as a Radiant. Another reason to think that this might be the case is that otherwise the Windrunners would seem highly likely to be massively over-represented as a percentage of total Radiants as they get far more squires than anyone else.

[Ryder]

I think Rock is on the way to becoming an edgedancer.  His character fits with the edgedancer's divine attributes of loving and healing.  Jasnah mentions that only about 1 in 3 radiants fought, so there would be plenty of jobs for him that wouldn't include killing.  I think he would make a great battlefield medic.  Plus, we know that edgedancers were traditionally the most refined of the KR (Lift notwithstanding), and Rock's skill and finesse cooking fits with that.  I think it would be interesting from a story perspective to have a member of bridge four become something other than a windrunner.  Also, if he becomes an edgedancer he can team up with and feed Lift! (And also Adolin, since I'm in the camp that thinks he will eventually revive Maya and somehow become and edgedancer as well)

[notsawerd]

What about the windspren hanging out around him in his POV?  It was dancing on the smoke from his fire or something and he comments that it had been there for some time?

[Ryder]

7 minutes ago, notsawerd said:

What about the windspren hanging out around him in his POV?  It was dancing on the smoke from his fire or something and he comments that it had been there for some time?

I just skimmed through Rock's chapter and couldn't find this?  There are plenty of windspren around and the Honorspren who show up as well, but I didn't find any that were paying special attention to Rock.  Even if I missed it though, it would kindof make sense as Rock is a windrunner squire if nothing else.  I just think he fits in with the edgedancers, especially given their second ideal being some version of "I will remember those who have been forgotten."  Rock had adopted Hobber, Dabbid, and Huio as cooks, all some form of outcasts.  He helps Renarin feel more at ease and sends him off to help Rlain, the most forgotten person in bridge four.  

 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

It is a good theory, and you have gathered great evidence for it, but I have a gut feeling that Bridge 4 will be Windrunner only. I remember Teft being a popular Stoneward candidate, and we all know how that went...

Also, Syl would have commented if she saw cryptics around Rock.

[The Sovereign]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

but I have a gut feeling that Bridge 4 will be Windrunner only.

Bridge Four already has a "Truthwatcher". I suspect you meant the original Bridge Crew, but semantics...

[PhineasGage]

Thanks all for commenting so far. I appreciate the feedback

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

If we assume that the squire bond is a human-to-human bond that depends upon the connection between the two (distance + personal closeness) then I don't see any reason why being a squire of a Windrunner precludes one from joining another order as a Radiant. Another reason to think that this might be the case is that otherwise the Windrunners would seem highly likely to be massively over-represented as a percentage of total Radiants as they get far more squires than anyone else.

I hadn't thought of this but I think it's a great point. I think Windrunners probably were one of the biggest orders if the squires are included in their numbers, but it would be easy to have way too many and for them to massively dominate the KR as a whole. That seems unlikely because we know there was conflict between the WR and SB which would be odd if there were loads more WR imo.

41 minutes ago, Ryder said:

I think Rock is on the way to becoming an edgedancer

This works too. I am not sure I feel it more than him being a LW given the lies, but he does certainly have some Edgedancer traits. I could live with this idea too - or even a Truthwatcher because of some of the things he adds. I got the idea for lightweaver because they are supposed to have been poets/authors/artists etc and I thought that as he told stories that might fit. On the other hand his fingers are described as delicate (by Kaladin in tWoK) so that could link with the edgedancers?

 

14 minutes ago, Ookla the Toasted said:

It is a good theory, and you have gathered great evidence for it, but I have a gut feeling that Bridge 4 will be Windrunner only. I remember Teft being a popular Stoneward candidate, and we all know how that went...

Fair enough  I do want to point out that they have already broken with them all being WR though - Renarin is a Truthwatcher. A mixed team would be more useful than them all being WR in theory as it would make them more versatile. That doesn't mean Rock has to be a LW of course.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@The Sovereign @PhineasGage

I forgot Renarin, but I mean the original WoK bridgemen, like the Sovereign is guessing, the ones who carried the bridges for Sadeas. 

[Peet]

In Spanish, Luna = moon, amor = love. I kept thinking "Moon love" as I read his POV chapter. Lol.

[Rainier]

12 minutes ago, Peet said:

In Spanish, Luna = moon, amor = love. I kept thinking "Moon love" as I read his POV chapter. Lol.

Not to completely derail this thread, but does this have anything to do with the short story we get about the woman who trades places with the moon, and bears the child of another moon? I've had that scene jostling at the back of my mind since reading it, but I haven't found any significance, or even much speculation. That story could definitely be described as moon-love.

As for Rock, I think the best evidence we have that he's a Lightweaver is the thematic reveal of his self-awareness. "I am a warrior" could easily be his first truth/secret. He's got lies and secrets in his past, more so than most (with the exception of Teft, who had some of his mystery dispelled). 

The best evidence against Lightweaver would be the relationship between Honorspren and Cryptics. It would be a bold Cryptic to tag along with the only bonded Honorspren, and be around a large group of other Honorspren. You'd think we'd see something, but there's no guarantee.

[hoser he/him]

Our big mystery man!  To me the most relevant mystery is revealed by: 

Quote

A glowing figure stood on some rubble beyond, holding Amaram's enormous Shardbow.  The weapon seemed to match Rock, tall and brilliant, a beacon in the darkness.

...

Kaladin glanced toward Rock, who stood over Amaram's body, looking down, the enormous bow held limply in one hand.  How had he drawn it?  Stormlight granted great endurance, but it didn't vastly improve strength.

I infer that Kaladin doesn't know how to wield the bow even with his surges.   I conclude that he had to develop some non-Windrunner radiant skills to use the bow.  Hence, he is already a non-Windrunner Radiant.  Further, his order must allow him to use a Shardbow.  My favorite theory is that he is a Stoneward.  I imagine that he was able to manipulate Tension somehow to use the bow.  Maybe temporarily make the bow easier to pull then, as he releases, restore the tension of the Shardbow?  Seems sketchy to master on the first shot. 

I think pulling the bow is the relevant mystery.  I feel less certain that he is a Stoneward or that Tension was used, but he does seem quite stubborn ...  I also think that his notable glowing could be associated with a level-up.

Edited December 2, 2017 by hoser

[DocHoliday he/him]

12 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Windrunners would seem highly likely to be massively over-represented as a percentage of total Radiants as they get far more squires than anyone else.

I'm not sure they would be as massively overbnumbered as perhaps youre imagining from current circumstances where we have perhaps 12 KR and 60 or so squires.

In the past every order had squires and the individual ranks were filled with numerous people. Yes, I think the Windrunners were a large percentage of these forces; but I don't think it was originally so massively one sided.

[PhineasGage]

15 hours ago, hoser said:

I think pulling the bow is the relevant mystery.  I feel less certain that he is a Stoneward or that Tension was used, but he does seem quite stubborn ...  I also think that his notable glowing could be associated with a level-up.

I agree that the Shardbow is relevant, but we also see that Rock is very strong in WoR before we see him glow in anyway - he throws a tree at Kaladin's head when they practice sparring.  I think that because he is part Listener, he may be stronger than the average human anyway. I'm not saying that he isn't using tension to use it so much as I think we have limited evidence of him using it. On the other hand, we already know he is bizarrely strong (which he possibly augments using stormlight when he pulls the shardbow back) and can use a bow with skill. I've done a bit of archery in my time, and half the trick is using the right muscles - if you get it wrong, even a normal bow can be storming difficult to draw, but when you get the knack of using your muscles and back it is much easier. Perhaps his additional base strength plus skill is enough? I know Dalinar thinks only a Shardbearer could do it, but that doesn't have to be true - Dalinar is capable of making such errors as we have seen.

I feel that if he accepts that he must fight, this could be a "truth" he accepts as part of LW progression and therefore he gets a level-up then. He doesn't like it which might be why he seems forlorn as he looks at the bow? But if I'm right then he can't refuse to acknowledge it going forward.

Regarding not seeing Cryptics, we know Syl sees one at the arena when Adolin, Renarin and Kaladin fight together. It appears that she saw Pattern, but what if she didn't? Rock might also have wanted to help and the cryptic she saw might have been his? It is exactly the sort of thing Sanderson might do to throw us off the scent. As an aside, he also calls Shallan "cousin" and that might be more foreshadowy than we realise!

I am somewhat less keen on the stoneward idea simply because we have too little evidence about what they are actually like. Rock seems to fit with the idea of the "big man standing in the way" but it perhaps is a bit too obvious? Let alone we have no real idea what their oaths are. On the other hand, "dependable and resourceful" definitely describe Rock so I could get behind it if we can get a bit more evidence about what Stonewards are actually like.  On that note, I'm pretty new here so I didn't see the idea that Teft could be a stoneward, but if I had, I wouldn't have gone there because he clearly comments that he isn't dependable/reliable in WoR and worries what will happen when he gets money. He also starts disappearing (we now know he is going to firemoss dens) in WoR and Kaladin wonders where he is. 

[Cenanin]

On 12/1/2017 at 0:20 PM, hoser said:

Our big mystery man!  To me the most relevant mystery is revealed by: 

I infer that Kaladin doesn't know how to wield the bow even with his surges.   I conclude that he had to develop some non-Windrunner radiant skills to use the bow.  Hence, he is already a non-Windrunner Radiant.  Further, his order must allow him to use a Shardbow.  My favorite theory is that he is a Stoneward.  I imagine that he was able to manipulate Tension somehow to use the bow.  Maybe temporarily make the bow easier to pull then, as he releases, restore the tension of the Shardbow?  Seems sketchy to master on the first shot. 

I think pulling the bow is the relevant mystery.  I feel less certain that he is a Stoneward or that Tension was used, but he does seem quite stubborn ...  I also think that his notable glowing could be associated with a level-up.

From my reading I thought it was implied by Teft AND Kaladin that Rock had bonded an Honor spren. It would also be super easy for him to draw the bow using Lashings. Kaladin could do it as well. Once a bow is drawn it takes less effort to keep it drawn then to draw it. 

Two lashings down on yourself, a couple lashings on the bow string. Pretty simple. Rock could probably also just hold the bow shaft and lash the string back. Or stick the bow shaft to the ground and lash the string up. I don't think a windrunner would have much trouble drawing a shardbow if one were to get creative. Adhesion+Lashings could do some pretty devastating things just off the top of my head. City destroying things. Lash a big rock up and fly with it, then send it down with 100 lashings. Things like that. Which are clearly possible using the magic system. But Kaladin isn't very imaginative, so the bow could easily be drawn.

I think the text with Kaladin and Teft after the battle clearly indicates Rock has bound an Honor spren. Just like Lopen and Teft, and he is certainly at minimum a squire, but probably at least bonded to an Honor spren.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

15 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

From my reading I thought it was implied by Teft AND Kaladin that Rock had bonded an Honor spren. It would also be super easy for him to draw the bow using Lashings. Kaladin could do it as well. Once a bow is drawn it takes less effort to keep it drawn then to draw it. 

Two lashings down on yourself, a couple lashings on the bow string. Pretty simple. Rock could probably also just hold the bow shaft and lash the string back. Or stick the bow shaft to the ground and lash the string up. I don't think a windrunner would have much trouble drawing a shardbow if one were to get creative. Adhesion+Lashings could do some pretty devastating things just off the top of my head. City destroying things. Lash a big rock up and fly with it, then send it down with 100 lashings. Things like that. Which are clearly possible using the magic system. But Kaladin isn't very imaginative, so the bow could easily be drawn.

I think the text with Kaladin and Teft after the battle clearly indicates Rock has bound an Honor spren. Just like Lopen and Teft, and he is certainly at minimum a squire, but probably at least bonded to an Honor spren.

So much this. Have an upvote. It seems there are a lot of logical ways to draw the bow.

 

13 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I am somewhat less keen on the stoneward idea simply because we have too little evidence about what they are actually like. Rock seems to fit with the idea of the "big man standing in the way" but it perhaps is a bit too obvious? Let alone we have no real idea what their oaths are. On the other hand, "dependable and resourceful" definitely describe Rock so I could get behind it if we can get a bit more evidence about what Stonewards are actually like.  On that note, I'm pretty new here so I didn't see the idea that Teft could be a stoneward, but if I had, I wouldn't have gone there because he clearly comments that he isn't dependable/reliable in WoR and worries what will happen when he gets money. He also starts disappearing (we now know he is going to firemoss dens) in WoR and Kaladin wonders where he is.

So, I am convinced we know one of their oaths from WoB.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5616

Questioner (paraphrased)

Can you write an unknown Ideal [in my book]?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are still rough so this might not be the exact wording but: "I will stand when others fall."

Based on everything we know, and most strongly, based on Taln's character, I feel this is a Stoneward oath.

[zpoly]

When Bridge Four joins the battle in Thaylen City, Rock mentions "Kaladin is close." "Ha! I feed him. But here, today, he fed me. With light!" (pg. 1184 in hardcover). This implies that his power comes from Kaladin. It also mentions on the next page that he launched into the air shortly after hugging Renarin. I think he's a windrunner squire. 

[Erinzard]

On 12/1/2017 at 2:20 PM, hoser said:

Our big mystery man!  To me the most relevant mystery is revealed by: 

On 12/1/2017 at 2:20 PM, hoser said:

Quote

A glowing figure stood on some rubble beyond, holding Amaram's enormous Shardbow.  The weapon seemed to match Rock, tall and brilliant, a beacon in the darkness.

...

Kaladin glanced toward Rock, who stood over Amaram's body, looking down, the enormous bow held limply in one hand.  How had he drawn it?  Stormlight granted great endurance, but it didn't vastly improve strength.

I infer that Kaladin doesn't know how to wield the bow even with his surges.   I conclude that he had to develop some non-Windrunner radiant skills to use the bow.  Hence, he is already a non-Windrunner Radiant.  Further, his order must allow him to use a Shardbow.  My favorite theory is that he is a Stoneward.  I imagine that he was able to manipulate Tension somehow to use the bow.  Maybe temporarily make the bow easier to pull then, as he releases, restore the tension of the Shardbow?  Seems sketchy to master on the first shot. 

I think pulling the bow is the relevant mystery.  I feel less certain that he is a Stoneward or that Tension was used, but he does seem quite stubborn ...  I also think that his notable glowing could be associated with a level-up.

"Kef'ha is dead, but what happened to you?" Rock's wife asks. Then on the next page, Rock says that Tifi and Sinaku'a are both dead either because of or following the act of raising a weapon in vengance (hardcover, pages 392-393). It sounded to me like he was the fourth and trained extensively as a warrior (including how to use a shard bow similar to how using a longbow requires developing special muscles from an early age. No matter how strong you are, if you haven't specifically used a longbow for years you won't be able to do it as far as I understand). I think the people referred to on those pages were his brothers. Not only that but if they are all dead, Rock could very well be the clan chief. But he is pretending to be chef only, HA! 

 

Second point: What what does Kaladin mean that stormlight doesn't make you that much stronger? I beg to differ. Szeth cracks Dalinar's ribs with a judo chop to the side because he's holding stormlight. Most of the fights he was involved in described stormlight enhanced speed and strength. So is Brandon just trying to outline that a person in shardplate would be significantly stronger than someone holding stormlight? I'm confused so maybe someone knows what's going on here. I don't see why Rock who's already crazy strong AND may have had specialized weapons training AND was full of stormlight WITH the convergence of all three realms going on couldn't just pull back a shardbow.

 

[Awesomness]

On 1/12/2017 at 2:39 PM, PhineasGage said:

This works too. I am not sure I feel it more than him being a LW given the lies, but he does certainly have some Edgedancer traits

Mmm I'm with @Ryder on this. LW seem to be very self absorbed, and Rock is a giver. Also he listens and knows what to say to help his friends.

I don´t think his lies define him.

[notsawerd]

From Rock's POV chapter

"A fire burned rockbud husks underneath, and a playful windspren whipped at the smoke, making it blow across him no matter where he stood."

It could be an honorspen and not a windspen.  Syl  looked like this when Kal's bond was beginning. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by notsawerd

[Storming Radiant he/him]

I just think that if we'll ever see a real Shardbow, it'll be wielded by Rock...