[OB]Ryshadium Origins

[Heretic he/him]

Are Ryshadium native to Roshar?

Early on in Oathbringer, Renarin mentions that Ryshadium don't fit with other horses- they have stone hoofs and don't need horseshoes. I think it's also fair to say that they're not explicitly bred by the Shin like normal horses, as we see a herd of them in one of Dalinar's flashbacks. This, plus a line from Arcanum about a species of horse that forms a bond with spren, makes me think they are native. The problem is that, aside from the hooves and their size, I don't think there's anything else distinguishing them from ordinary horses. So, where or how exactly did the Ryshadium come to be on Roshar? My only guess is they're somehow the result of some terrifying interbreeding between horses and chasm fiends but I'm curious to know if anyone else has ideas that are less likely to give me nightmares.

[Dreamstorm]

I think Renarin was saying that the regular horses don't fit. We know Rhyshadium have some sort of spren synergy (in Dalinar's flashback the herd has musicspren around them.) I'm thinking they may be native (or as native as anything is in the Cosmere) and regular horses the interlopers - coming with our human voidbringers. Curious as to whether or not Rhyshadium have gemhearts too. (There may be WoB on all this stuff though.)

It was disappointing not to see Gallant mentioned in Dalinar's flashbacks, especially as they seem to have such a deep bond in WoK, it's hard for me to believe he only bonded with Gallant after visiting the Nightwatcher. Though, I guess that had to be the chronology unless that was just overlooked in the Dalinar flashbacks (i.e. would think we'd get a mention of Gallant of he was around.) Also felt like the fallout of Sureblood's death was dropped from the narrative. Hopefully these horse moments will be picked back up in future books!

[RShara she/her]

Don't they have stone hooves and gemhearts?  That would definitely indicate Roshar nativeness.

[Dreamstorm]

20 minutes ago, RShara said:

Don't they have stone hooves and gemhearts?  That would definitely indicate Roshar nativeness.

Yes to stone hooves. I haven’t seen anything definitive on gemhearts (quick search didn’t come up with anything), but there is a WoB they are “Invested” somehow. 

[Maximus]

They'd be one of the few (only?) native species without a shell of some kind. My guess is they have been magically altered somehow.

[Calderis he/him]

I think that horses were introduced long enough ago that Ryshadium have developed a spren bond that makes them fit more into Roshar. 

Horses don't fit. Ryshadium are just horses altered by a spren bond. Either it is a evolutionary split or direct shardic intervention, but they are altered horses, and horses aren't native. 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Odium created a nine-headed horse demon thing, so I suspect Roshadium were of Odium (invested) but over time they adapted to the Rosier Spren ecosystem. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by teknopathetic

[thejopen27 he/him]

Horses are neither crustacean or lizard like, so they aren't native to Roshar. My guess is that Ryshadium are either bred and manipulated by the Radiants, or were specifically made by Honor or Cultivation to help the Radiants. All horses, even Ryshadium, don't fit on Roshar. 

[ScavellTane]

2 hours ago, Ookla, the Incalculable said:

I think that horses were introduced long enough ago that Ryshadium have developed a spren bond that makes them fit more into Roshar. 

Horses don't fit. Ryshadium are just horses altered by a spren bond. Either it is a evolutionary split or direct shardic intervention, but they are altered horses, and horses aren't native. 

If that's the case we would have seen Rosharan birds or at the very least Rosharan chicken.

[KidWayne he/him]

It surprised me that no one mentioned Dalinar's comment that the wild ryshadium are accompanied by music spren. This makes me think that they are some kind of Cultivation-inspired hybrid that was made specifically for Roshar.

Roshar's wildlife seems to feature gemhearts, spren associations, and carapace. Ryshadium may or may not have gemhearts but they do have stone hooves (similar to carapace)and they make spren bonds. The fact that they are associated with music spren makes me think that they are somehow able to tune into the Rhythms of the Parsh/Singers/Listeners since we see Venli's spren, Timbre, pulsing to those rhythms as well.

[Dreamstorm]

13 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

We know Rhyshadium have some sort of spren synergy (in Dalinar's flashback the herd has musicspren around them.)

 

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

It surprised me that no one mentioned Dalinar's comment that the wild ryshadium are accompanied by music spren.

[Obnoxiously raises hand ]

[Stormfather-in-Law]

8 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Odium created a nine-headed horse demon thing, so I suspect Roshadium were of Odium (invested) but over time they adapted to the Rosier Spren ecosystem. 

My thought is that figure was of Shallan's invention rather than something real. It combines the horse figures she had seen at one point in Urithiru with the Midnight Mother's influence on her drawings.

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

The fact that they are associated with music spren makes me think that they are somehow able to tune into the Rhythms of the Parsh/Singers/Listeners since we see Venli's spren, Timbre, pulsing to those rhythms as well.

I like this idea the best, but I don't think they have gemhearts. They just aren't of the local type to be true natives. It makes perfect sense that their bond with spren mimicked or co-opted the Listener rhythms, even if they themselves are merely adapted to Roshar, and not native.

But given their intelligence, I wouldn't be surprised if their symbiosis with the spren is similar to that of the Radiants, where the spren that are attracted to Ryshadium are granted a measure of intelligence and closeness to the physical realm like we see with Syl and Pattern. Or maybe they're not music spren at all, but the intelligent equivalent (Honorspren:Windspren :: Ryshadiumspren:Musicspren).

I definitely want to know more about Ryshadium, and I absolutely want to see what it takes to bond one to you. Hopefully we get a scene in an upcoming book where this happens. 

[MistLord he/him]

Quote

... and there is even a race of equines that – through the spren bond – have adapted to life on the planet and obtained a high enough level of self-awareness to nearly be named a sapient species. 

 – Arcanum Unbounded, The Rosharan System 

Aside from providing the quote for clarity, the quote also implies that the Ryshadium are not native. 

It reminds me of how the Knights Radiant gain their powers, and I find the analogy apt given that humanity is not native to Roshar. The Radiants themselves show that one does not need to be native to form a spren bond. 

[PhineasGage]

On 11/30/2017 at 8:51 AM, teknopathetic said:

Odium created a nine-headed horse demon thing, so I suspect Roshadium were of Odium (invested) but over time they adapted to the Rosier Spren ecosystem

This is a picture of Nergaoul. It is drawn by Shallan when she had a time-lapse dissociation period. It looks like the description given of Nergaoul in Part 5. I don't think it has anything to do with real horses or rhyshadium except that horses came with the humans and so did Odium.

I agree that Rhyshadium are altered horses. It seems reasonable to conclude that due to direct Shardic intervention normal horses were altered to become invested so they would be suitable to carry plated radiants (ng normal horses too fragile). The interference was done in such a way as to allow further Ryshadium to be bred. I don't think Rhyshadium and normal horses can breed now (no doubt someone would have tried it - Rhyshadium are rare and very useful) which suggests they are different species far enough apart to at least not produce fertile offspring. Maybe you can get mixed breeds, but they would likely be infertile (like mules are infertile offspring of donkeys and horses), or,imo, even more likely, they just don't breed/produce offspring. 

The question remains, is there a gemheart? Given the extra intelligence of Rhyshadium, I think a spren bond seems reasonable (whether in a gem heart of another form I don't know). I say this because the chasmfiend is clever when it lies in wait for Shallan and Kaladin in the chasm and we know that has some bonded spren (luckspren). Most other local species don't seem that clever in the wild. Maybe axehounds are, Balat's seems quite bright - though that could as much be due to selective breeding by humans (like we bred dogs to be clever) as from a spren. I didn't get the impression that anyone thinks whitespine are clever so much as cunning?

 

Oops forgot to comment on this:

17 hours ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

It surprised me that no one mentioned Dalinar's comment that the wild ryshadium are accompanied by music spren. This makes me think that they are some kind of Cultivation-inspired hybrid that was made specifically for Roshar

Ooh i forgot about this. That suggests a spren bond imo - only intelligent creatures seem able to attract spren like that. Are the Rhyshadium talking to each other like the Parsendi did through the rhythms?

Edited December 1, 2017 by PhineasGage
Added thought

[KidWayne he/him]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:17 AM, Dreamstorm said:

[Obnoxiously raises hand ]

Fair enough. I skimmed the thread for it, but I missed it. My bad.

14 hours ago, MistLord said:

Aside from providing the quote for clarity, the quote also implies that the Ryshadium are not native. 

It reminds me of how the Knights Radiant gain their powers, and I find the analogy apt given that humanity is not native to Roshar. The Radiants themselves show that one does not need to be native to form a spren bond. 

Good catch. I like where you went with that and I agree with your assessment.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Ookla the Hatter

[Bacon]

I suspect they're what happens when a horse bonds a spren

[Messremb]

seeing as a hoof is very similar to fingernails, has anyone considered the relationship between the Hedazians and their stone fingernails, and Ryshadium and their stone hooves? Also, I found it interesting that the Herdazian members of bridge 4 all seemed to quickly gain access to the radiant/squire powers while even some of the more dedicated members of bridge 4 took much longer. Oh, and Lopen being the first to intentionally access stormlight, while very far away from Kaladin.

[Heretic he/him]

On 12/1/2017 at 2:38 PM, Messremb said:

seeing as a hoof is very similar to fingernails, has anyone considered the relationship between the Hedazians and their stone fingernails, and Ryshadium and their stone hooves? Also, I found it interesting that the Herdazian members of bridge 4 all seemed to quickly gain access to the radiant/squire powers while even some of the more dedicated members of bridge 4 took much longer. Oh, and Lopen being the first to intentionally access stormlight, while very far away from Kaladin.

I was thinking about that the other day. Sigzil mentions that Herdazian fingernails look similar to carapace. I feel like that implies that Herdazians are descended from both parshmen and humans, although I only really have the fingernail comment to go on. It doesn't seem far-fetched though because you have the Natan people who have blue skin from Aimian ancestry.  

[digitalbusker he/him]

The similarity between stone hooves and stone fingernails makes me want a Ryshadium PoV.

"Hey, Wilbur, you want to ride me, I think. We Ryshadiums are the best at riding, sure. One time, I carried six, probably seven Horneaters a hundred miles. Fat ones, sure, in armor."

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, Heretic said:

I was thinking about that the other day. Sigzil mentions that Herdazian fingernails look similar to carapace. I feel like that implies that Herdazians are descended from both parshmen and humans, although I only really have the fingernail comment to go on. It doesn't seem far-fetched though because you have the Natan people who have blue skin from Aimian ancestry.  

Good catch. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/188/#e3922

Quote

HorseCannon

I didn't realize horneaters had parshmen blood, didn't even realize that was possible. How closely are humans and parshmen related, do they have a common ancestor? Or is one an artificially created version of the other?

Brandon Sanderson

There was intermixing long ago. Horneaters and Herdazians are both a result. (Signs of this are the stone carapace on Herdazian fingernails and the Horneater extra jaw pieces--in the back of the mouth--for breaking shells.)

Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium.

 

[SirPaulchen he/him]

I personally imagine the woman who picked up the cultivation shard missing horses and building her own version on Roshar once the settled there.

[Mircana he/him]

I wonder if, like the listeners there is an animal like version that is a blank until bonded my a spren. that's could explain great shells 

[theuntaintedchild he/him]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 9:33 AM, Stormfather-in-Law said:

My thought is that figure was of Shallan's invention rather than something real. It combines the horse figures she had seen at one point in Urithiru with the Midnight Mother's influence on her drawings.

I thought it was the thrill.

 

[aurik he/him]

I was just re-reading Oathbringer today, and came across Adolin's observation that the Ryshadium are sometimes referred to as "the third Shard".  Perhaps, then, it has to do with a KR as (s)he progresses?  So at 3 ideals they get the blade, at 4 ideals they get plate, and at the 5th ideal they get a Ryshadium?