[OB] Unmade and their names

[KOOZ]

Something small I noticed while perusing the page with information on the Unmade. As we finally get all the nine names* of the Unmade, I noticed the following correlation (albeit, not ideal) with Unmade names versus their degree or awareness and, to a certain effect, power effects.

This could be nothing major, but seems like an interesting little quirk: the more "-" there are in the name of the Unmade, the more self aware it is, and the more selective is its power (the latter is even less clear on that). For brevity and clarity of argument, please find the link to coppermind's article on the Unmade here and the Epigraphs, specifically Hessi's Mythica, here. 

We have the "three great Mindless Spren", per Hessi:

Ashertmarn, Moelach, Nergaoul.

All three are supposed to exhibit limited self-awareness; all three have a  "area/regional effect" with, potentially, no Friend/Foe distintcion: Mythica specifically notes that Nergaul, the Thrill, affects everyone on both sides of the battle. I wonder if Death Rattles are applied randomly to anyone on both sides of the conflict (e.g. would the Parshendi also get Death Rattles, or humans allied to Odium? We clearly have evidence that Death Rattles also come upon those who are, or in proximity to those who are, directly or indirectly opposing Odium - e.g. Mr T's efforts, Bridge Four deaths). I am a bit hazy on the battle for Kholinar, but I believe Ashertmarn was affecting everyone within the palace, including the followers of the Cult (those who remember it better, could you kindly verify if that's the case?).

[Chemoarish] - at the moment, unclear. Could be that she is a lesser Mindless Spren; as far as I know, no specific information is given, barring indications that she is often confused with the Nightwatcher and that the lore is varied, as per Mythica.

Then we have the next rank of 4 with the self-aware spren:

Yalig-nar, Sja-anat, Re-shephir, (Dai-gonarthis).

Of the three we met, there is clearly a certain self awareness, especially in the case of Sja-anat. Their effects/powers are  highly selective (in terms of affecting entities in their locale), if somewhat more localized: Yalig-nar effectively creates a supersolider, Sja-anat corrupts spren (in Kholinar only some of the spren were corrupted, I got the impression this is sometihng that is not done wholesale, but selective), Re-shehir selects how many midnight essences and the like are created, who they mirror, what numbers are produced and what they do - a bit like a carrier.

Finally, we have the apparent leader of the Odium interests on Roshar, not only self-aware, but "keen on mind, a highprincess" (Mythica):

Ba-Ado-Mishram.

Self aware, leader of the forces, almost a royal among the Unmade. Likely has a selective global effect - based on the perfect gem library, somehow was feeding odiumlight to the Parsh on Roshar.

Voila. I wonder what the significance is, if any? Could it be two or three entities were fused into one to produce the more self-aware entities with more selective actions?

For now, I see two deviations due to lack of information - is Dai-gonarthis an Unmade, self-aware, with a selective power? And, more importantly, the name of Chemoarish does not fit the descirptions so far - in Mythica only three great Mindless Unmade are mentioned. But, assuming this name correlating with awareness and power relationship holds true, let's do a Mendeleev and make some predictions: it will be not very self aware and should have some variation on a regional effect that equally affects entities in a given area without selectivity based on Shard alignment. Notably, given what is mentioned in the Mythica regarding varied lore and confusion with Nightwatcher, it seems to me that the power is likely a little less monolithic and more varied, and manifests itself in ways that cannot be easily percieved to be epic / in-your-face (so, likely a more subtle, and varied power).

Would be interesting to see what your take on it is, good forumers.

 

*Based on assumption that any reserarch dealing with a collection of myths and partial sources spread over a timeline going through multiple centuries and even potentially millenia, the Mythica cannot get everything accurately, so uncertainty with respect to the identity of just 1/9 Unmade is impressive and is to be expected. Yet it mentioning Dai-Gonarthis makes it a reasonable educated guess, especially if this is coupled with the Death Rattle (link), making it  a reasonable basis for allowing Dai-Gonarthis to remain in the Unmade set, until such time as more info is obtained/deduced.

[ScavellTane]

Perhaps Chemoarish became the Nightwatcher after Cultivations interference.

[A Dopey Spren]

I'm trying to figure out what Sja-anat meant by "we were made, then unmade". Could it be that the Unmade were initially splinters from a different Shard to Odium, and then he corrupted them? Or they were initially Spren who were 'made' (similar to Syl being born/made by the Stormfather), and then due to Odium's influence, they were corrupted into the Unmade?

Also what is happening in terms of Hungerspren not being corrupted by Sja-anat, although many others were in Kholinar?

So many questions, not enough answers!

[ccstat]

Great analysis, I like the idea of the naming convention relating to their awareness and abilities.

[Farnsworth]

Weird theory: maybe the dashes mean that they were combined? So Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Ba, Ado, and Mishrim combined, with all 3 of their intellects.

[A Dopey Spren]

3 minutes ago, Ookla the maladroit said:

Weird theory: maybe the dashes mean that they were combined? So Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Ba, Ado, and Mishrim combined, with all 3 of their intellects.

Does that mean Nightblood is a sword combined with a nimi? I wonder what a nimi could be... 

[Varenus]

2 minutes ago, A Dopey Spren said:

Does that mean Nightblood is a sword combined with a nimi? I wonder what a nimi could be... 

Nightblood would never let itself be combined with a nimi! Whatever a nimi is, it could be evil!

[A Dopey Spren]

7 hours ago, Varenus said:

Nightblood would never let itself be combined with a nimi! Whatever a nimi is, it could be evil!

True! 

[KOOZ]

On 12/1/2017 at 3:45 PM, A Dopey Spren said:

I'm trying to figure out what Sja-anat meant by "we were made, then unmade". Could it be that the Unmade were initially splinters from a different Shard to Odium, and then he corrupted them? Or they were initially Spren who were 'made' (similar to Syl being born/made by the Stormfather), and then due to Odium's influence, they were corrupted into the Unmade?

That's my thinking too - taking some powerful spren or entities, then  the mixing of various Shards' influences could also explain why they have such complicated and unique effects on other entities on Roshar.

20 hours ago, Ookla the maladroit said:

Weird theory: maybe the dashes mean that they were combined? So Ba-Ado-Mishram was once Ba, Ado, and Mishrim combined, with all 3 of their intellects.

Aye-aye! That's what I was trying to say here, though a little less clearly:

On 11/30/2017 at 0:05 AM, KOOZ said:

Could it be two or three entities were fused into one to produce the more self-aware entities with more selective actions?

 

On 12/1/2017 at 3:45 PM, A Dopey Spren said:

Also what is happening in terms of Hungerspren not being corrupted by Sja-anat, although many others were in Kholinar?

 Could it be that some of Odiumspren, the ones that are the most mindless, the equivalent of the most common spren least self-aware Honour and Cultivation spren, have remained in Roshar? And being completely unrelated to giving surges or otherwise being aware enough, like Ulim, to act as agents of Odium, they remained and are simply considered "normal" - so there is no need for Sja-anat to corrupt them in the first place?

 

20 hours ago, ccstat said:

Great analysis, I like the idea of the naming convention relating to their awareness and abilities.

Cheers! I hope Chemoarish turns out to fit the bill!

 

On 11/30/2017 at 9:50 AM, ScavellTane said:

Perhaps Chemoarish became the Nightwatcher after Cultivations interference.

Oh that's very interesting - actually, come to think of it, Sja-anat's behaviour is strange - she ostensibly wants to change teams, and then there was Shallan's interaction with Re-Shephir, where she saw that the spren's awareness and modus operandi were changing - less a mindless killer, more interested in trying to comprehend human nature... both are traits of change, evolution...Cultivation's hand?

 

Regarding Dai-Gonarthis - I've seen elsewhere and finally remembered the quote from Jezrien from one of Dalinar's flashbacks - he is mentioned by his other name (and from the Death Rattle I think it is fair to assume that he is the Black Fisher?). In that case, looking at the Death Rattle more closely, it does look like a localized effect - him consuming a sorrow of a specific individual, which, for now, fits the expected pattern (self-aware, power effect localized and selective). 

Finally, tying this up with the lovely thread discussing the potentially Unmade nature of Cusicesh, does that fit the  bill? Hard to say, as we understand little of Cusicesh's effects on people, it seems like an area effect, with people feeling drained (but so did Bridge Thirteen, was it, folks at Dalinar's wedding with the Stormfather's presence) - so we'll have to wait and see. Though, my gut feeling is that it is something else.

 

20 hours ago, Varenus said:

Nightblood would never let itself be combined with a nimi! Whatever a nimi is, it could be evil!

Mmm, surely nimi sounds cute and harmless, and Nightblood, in sheath, would be happy to be associated with a nimi? And then strike it if it's evil?

PS
What a wall of text! Many random thoughts, look forward to hearing your take on all this!

[Varenus]

1 hour ago, KOOZ said:

 

Mmm, surely nimi sounds cute and harmless, and Nightblood, in sheath, would be happy to be associated with a nimi? And then strike it if it's evil?
 

Ground breaking research into Shin grammar has discovered the truth behind the nimi!

Nimi is an acronym for: notoriously intimidating monstrous inquisitor.

Surely Nightblood would destroy such a creature on sight!  

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 12/1/2017 at 6:45 AM, A Dopey Spren said:

Also what is happening in terms of Hungerspren not being corrupted by Sja-anat, although many others were in Kholinar?

I think this is interesting that only certain lesser spren are corrupted by Sja-anat. We know that pain spren, shame spren and glory spren are corrupted, but that hunger spren are not. We also know that the corruption results in altered coloration (sometimes?) for the effected spren and changed physical manifestation (Glory spren appear as cubes instead of spheres, pain spren appear as sickly green sinewy hands instead of skin covered orange hands, and shame spren appear as falling shards of glass instead of falling pink and red flower petals). These lesser spren seem to be corrupted by proximity to Sja-anat, while higher spren need to actively be corrupted (like the Oathgate spren, which turned from white to red, red being the sign of corrupted investiture).

From the journey through Shadesmar, we know that the physical realm manifestation of a spren is only a partial aspect of the spren's true being, but that being the case, what kind of transformation is actually taking place? Is her effect one of corrupting the very idea of an emotional state? Like does the idea of glory to an impartial observer subject to her corruption seem subjectively different than it would to an impartial observer not being effected by her corruption?

Maybe this is a window into the nature of her corruption and how she is able to corrupt, and maybe this is also a window into the levers that Odium uses to control/corrupt his voidbringers. He and Sja-anat can corrupt their vessels using the phenomena of Pain, Shame and Glory possibly because these are emotions that can be projected or rationalized away. He seems in OB to work on the principle of "Let me be the cause of X behaviour, it's not your fault, blame me" and this tradeoff (as seen with Moash and as narrowly averted by Dalinar) seem to rob the person who accepts this rationalization of more of their identity (creating the void in Voidbringer).

It would be incredibly interesting to see how some of these corrupted spren differ from the non-corrupted versions in Shadesmar.

[Willow]

I wrote this post in another thread as well, but I'm just going to copy it, because I'm lazy. I think there are also three levels of Unmade, but they're split up differently (regardless of the names), because I think Sja-anat and Re-shephir are simply too different in intelligence and awareness:

 

On 6-12-2017 at 11:03 PM, Blazenella said:

The Unmade are broken down into 3 groups: mindless, sentient, and then Ba-Ado-Mishram. These go by the number of hyphens in the name Ba-Ado with 2, sentient like Re-Shephir with 1, and mindless like Moelach with none.

I have a theory that you're right about the three groups, but that each group has three spren (with Ba-Ado-Mishram being the most intelligent in the top group). You have the three mindless spren: Ashertmarn, Nergaoul and Moelach. Then you have the sentient spren, like Re-shephir, aware but not on a completely sapient level. I think this group has Re-shephir, Chemoarish (just because) and Yelig-nar (he needs to bond with other voidbringers, and we haven't seen any really intelligent input from him in the book).

Then we have the intelligent and sapient group. Sja-anat, Ba-Ado-Mishram, and I think Dai-gonarthis (Hessi's musings that he might be responsible for the destruction of Aimia somehow seems to imply more intelligence/indepence, though I might have him and Chemoarish and Yelig-nar wrong). Sja-anat is simply a clear level of awareness and intellegence higher than Re-shephir was. Ba-Ado-Mishram could still be the leader of the Unmade.