The-only-game Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 So are there any theories any ideas on what the 5th ideal bestows. By now it's pretty clear that the fourth ideal gives shardplate. The 5th ideal is the last and hence must be a very significant ideal. So do we have any Wob or any theories on the 5th ideal? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 I know the Honorspren in Shadesmar mentioned that there were ways to free Syl from the Nahel bond before the Final Ideal is sworn. Quote Notum shook his head, then looked away, off into the distance. “I cannot answer. You should not have bonded Sylphrena, either way. She is too precious to the Stormfather.” “Regardless,” Kaladin said, “you’re about half a year too late. So you might as well accept it.” “Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.” 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkara Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 Well the 5th Ideal for the Skybreakers is about the Radiant becoming an embodiment of law. We don't really know what that entails except that Nale felt it gave him some "leniencies," but other orders may follow the same pattern (i.e. Windrunners will embody honor, Lightweavers will embody truth, Elsecallers will embody knowledge, etc.). As for what it grants... I don't think we really know. Notum mentioned to Kaladin that there were methods the honorspren could do to remove his Nahel bond up until the Fifth Ideal, so I assume that it makes the bond permanent in some way. I'm thinking this probably means a complete merging of the spren and Radiant. I believe we've seen the progression of this with Kaladin. As his bond with Syl has strengthened, she's become more than just more sapient. In OB, she started having access to Kal's memories from before the bond, and when he mentioned this to her, she shrugged it off as though it didn't really matter. Also, when Kaladin is attracting windspren on Notum's ship, he's able to hear Syl in his head which is a surprise to both of them. If the 5th Ideal does completely merge spren and Radiant, I have to wonder about the pros and cons. Spren are immortal and humans are not, so what is the life expectancy of a full Radiant? If 5th Ideal Radiants are each fully bonded to a Splinter, are they essentially a mini Heralds? What happens if/when the full Radiant dies (in battle, by accident, from old age, etc.)? If I had to answer those questions with the tiny bits of information we do have, I'd say: (1) full Radiants probably have extended but not eternal lifespans; (2) yes, they are probably mini Heralds; (3) the spren dies as well, and the Investiture floats around in Shadesmar until it coalesces in those areas where baby spren come from. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Snow Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 52 minutes ago, The-only-game said: So are there any theories any ideas on what the 5th ideal bestows. By now it's pretty clear that the fourth ideal gives shardplate. The 5th ideal is the last and hence must be a very significant ideal. So do we have any Wob or any theories on the 5th ideal? I'm not sure that the 4th Ideal (which I'll call 4th level from now on) gives Shardplate is completely true. I think it's probably true for Windrunners, especially considering the record the Radiants left in the Gem Library. But Shallan is already a 4th level Radiant, and she doesn't have Shardplate. I guess she could be repressing it's existence like she did the Blade, but we've seen no indication of that (at least I haven't) and I can remember suspecting/thinking that Shallan had a Blade all the way back in WoK (not why though, haven't read it in a lot). I kinda agree with @Salkara though I'm not completely sure about the fusing Radiant and Spren, especially since I'm guessing that there were at least SOME 5th level Radiants during the Recreance, and I don't remember any Radiants dying when Dalinar sees the Recreance (and I don't see what else could happen from betraying your oaths when you're fused with your spren). I'd guess that 5th level basically seals the Nahel bond. Maybe it makes the bond unbreakable, even if the Radiant breaks his bonds though I think that it's really unlikely. Though when I think about it more it does explain some things, like how the Stormfather, Nightmother, and I'm guessing the Sibling (since the Stormfather doesn't say they're dead) are still alive and iirc there was at least one Bondsmith during the Recreance (though it could be that the Sibling was simply gravely wounded by the Recreance instead of killed). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noblehunter Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 Don't we have WOB that the Stormfather would have survived the Recreance if he'd been bonded? Though I think the Sibling was the one bonded during the Recreance. Which is why they're sleeping. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deddinty Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 17 minutes ago, Matt Snow said: I'm not sure that the 4th Ideal (which I'll call 4th level from now on) gives Shardplate is completely true. I think it's probably true for Windrunners, especially considering the record the Radiants left in the Gem Library. But Shallan is already a 4th level Radiant, and she doesn't have Shardplate. I guess she could be repressing it's existence like she did the Blade, but we've seen no indication of that (at least I haven't) and I can remember suspecting/thinking that Shallan had a Blade all the way back in WoK (not why though, haven't read it in a lot). Actually we have evidence she does know, and likely could have it, but she hasn't truly accepted her 4th level yet. Relevant quotes: Quote “Holding it immediately brought pain. Not the screaming of a dead spren. Pain inside. The pain of an Ideal sworn, but not yet overcome.” -29 “Another hand took Shallan’s on the right. Radiant, in glowing garnet Shardplate, tall, with braided hair.” -120 I do agree that not all orders will be the same. Personally I always thought it appropriate if stonewards got their armor earlier than other orders, since holding the line is implied as their MO, but I also like the idea of similar progression across orders. I hope we get some more specific information about plate and why radiants can use it when we do finally see a 4th ideal out there. Not just a reward for leveling up, but some actual change in the bond that allows it, similar to the third ideal and earning the true trust of the bonded spren as implied for blades. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Snow Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 8 minutes ago, deddinty said: Actually we have evidence she does know, and likely could have it, but she hasn't truly accepted her 4th level yet. Relevant quotes: Man I never caught that, thanks for pointing it out :). Hopefully we do get some more info on Shardplate, I'm partial to the made from lesser spren theory atm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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