[OB] Wit's advice

[Guest]

I love how everyone is keeping the shipping discussions in spoilers ever since the main thread got locked.

That said,

Spoiler

10 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

The only thing I can think of here is that Adolin is a little over-protective, but even that is so minor and doesn't cause any discord (when she chides him after the chasms on this issue, he's like, ok no worries!)

Funnily enough, this completely changes. In Oathbringer, he "shelters" her multiple times and "Shallan" actually says, that she feels comfortable like that. Another clue, that she "lost" a part of her personality - I think to Veil, who probably would react how Shallan reacted at the end of the chasms.

Edited December 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Diomedes]

17 hours ago, Awesomness said:

So if Radiant is the logical one, and Veil the compassionate and social driven drunk, "Shallan" is not any of those things? 

One big thing to remember is that all of these personas were created to make up for the deficiencies of integrated ("real") Shallan. "Shallan" (I will just call her Princess Shallan) was created because integrated Shallan felt like she could not cope with the needs of Alethi lighteye society. Princess Shallan is a persona perfectly suited for this environment. She exemplifies the social norms pressed on a highborn Alethi woman. This lighteye society does not really value compassion in their women (think about Evi, who is the most compassionate person ever, and how she is treated). So Princess Shallan is not really compassionate. She does not really care about her marriage with Adolin and the bond between them for its own sake. Instead it`s a "celebration of herself". At least the relationship with Adolin is not front and center, where it should be! We also do not see the oaths of the marriage being spoken, which is really odd. Consider also how she treated Bridge Four in WoR, that was pretty snobbish. Now that I think about it, the altruistic drive Veil gets in Kholinar probably stems from her guilty conscience of being self absorbed Princess Shallan. Veil is compensating for this lack of compassion on the side of Princess Shallan. Pattern immediately gets this and calls her out for not genuinly wanting to help people.   

Edited December 1, 2017 by Diomedes

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

(note Kal hasn't either unless you count her in the Horneater guise as the real her)

Except for the chasm scene, where she lets her walls down for, as far as I can tell, the only time.

 

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Btw, I hadn't remembered Shallan Lightweaved to create "Shallan" that early, and more likely, it wasn't that significant to me until after OB. In Chapter 38, we see her rely on this persona: "The image she'd drawn of herself came to the rescue.  She could be that woman today - and that woman, while not emotionless, could push through the loss."

That's a great point, and one I had completely missed. So our timeline for Shallan personae is

1. "Shallan Davar, betrothed of Adolin Kholin": when she first presents herself at the Shattered Plains;
2. "Veil", when she needs a persona to spy, sneak, steal, and join the Ghostbloods. 
3. "Brightness Radiant", when she can't stand holding Pattern-blade

I always maintained that Adolin had never seen the real her, but I never put it together with her debut at the Shattered Plains and the Lightweaving she did as part of it. With the context of OB, we can see exactly how she created a persona for herself to hide within, just like she did with Radiant in part 1. The wording is almost the same (be that woman, be this, do that). Just like she uses Radiant to be the woman who can deal with Pattern as a shardblade, she uses 'Shallan Davar, betrothed' as a woman who can deal with the pain of her travels and the demands of the court. 

[Dreamstorm]

9 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Except for the chasm scene, where she lets her walls down for, as far as I can tell, the only time.

Do you have any good textual evidence for this?  I think a lot of us feel like the Shallan in the chasms was the most authentic Shallan we've seen since her arrival on the Shattered Plains, but I'm wondering if there's any text which specifically talks about her dropping the "Shallan" guise or merging "Shallan" and Veil.  Obviously this wouldn't be explicit (Veil isn't mentioned, for instance), but addressing either concept in a tangential way so we have stronger support than just feeling like Shallan's character acted more authentic.

[kari-no-sugata]

Couple of interesting new WoBs:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176-oathbringer-chicago-signing/#e8480

 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, in Oathbringer, the way that Veil and others are treated as separate people themselves. Is there any similarity between that and Feruchemical Identity? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Uh… Yes, but it’s pretty tenuous.

Well, perhaps a hint that there's something magical about Shallan's personas? (Perhaps magically enhanced or entrenched...? Probably building on top of existing mechanisms in the brain if so though...)

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176-oathbringer-chicago-signing/#e8452

 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, in Oathbringer, we see the Surge of Adhesion used in an interesting way, Spiritual Adhesion. Do all the Surges have non-physical manifestations like that?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

All the Surges do, slightly, in fact, but none of them, I would say, are as Spiritual as that. 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

What about like, Shallan in Words of Radiance with her mercenaries? So, like, a Spiritual Transformation? 

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I wouldn't say Transformation, she is seeing a little bit, glimpsing a little bit, does that make sense?

Rather unclear unfortunately. Brandon has previously indicated that Shallan's eyesight is magically enhanced or something - perhaps that's what he's referring to (This WoB)? But then, why would Pattern directly refer to the Surge of Transformation when Shallan persuaded the deserters to help her? Or is Brandon referring to something else?

 

Some older WoB perhaps related to previous discussion on what happened to Pattern after Shallan killed her mother:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/161-words-of-radiance-washington-dc-signing/#e6997

 

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Questioner (paraphrased)

If after speaking the Third Ideal, Kaladin were to betray his oaths, would Syl turn into a Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

It would be interesting to know if "betray his oaths" means betraying all oaths completely (like the Radiants at the Recreance) or just by going down a level.

 

Some older WoBs for reference:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/60-firefight-san-francisco-signing/#e6663

 

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Questioner

Do you have to have done the third oath before you can convert your spren into a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

In most orders, yes.

Questioner

What about Shallan then? Did she do it, cause she was a kid when she first...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, um...you will find out more.

I hope we do actually find out... someday...

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/156-words-of-radiance-lexington-signing/#e2846

 

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Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression."

Shame we don't have this one done precisely....

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/221-words-of-radiance-omaha-signing/#e7874

 

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Kythis

How did Pattern actually become a shardblade even though he hadn't been fully pulled into the physical realm?

Brandon Sanderson

He had been pulled into the physical realm before when Shallan was younger, and she almost broke her bond.  And in so doing . . . 

Kythis

But he didn't go mad.

Brandon Sanderson

She didn't completely break the bond.  She didn't reject him completely.  But it was dangerous there for a while. 

 

 

[Guest]

Morning, @kari-no-sugata !

First of all, thanks for the new WoBs, I really have a hard time keeping track of them, but many don't seem to be that relevant to the discussion at had.

I think, my biggest issue is, that "going down a level" thing. When Kaladin broke his oath to protect Elhokar and Syl died, his powers were completely gone. This suggests, that he didn't go down a level, but his bond regressed to complete brokenness for a time.

Now to the nature of the Truths of the Lightweavers... I still think, that they not only need to speak them, but be constantly aware of them. Like how a Windrunner has to live by his Ideals, that he has spoken. Shallan must have spoken Truths before her memory lapse, so she can't be aware of them anymore, but she never betrayed the First Ideal, she chose to live on, never considered suicide, she moved on, I know, that the First Ideal is ambiguous and a point of contention, but I think, that is what saved Pattern from being completely killed, still Shallan had lost her powers and couldn't be aware of her old Truths anymore, because of her memory loss and so needed to speak new Truths. ("I'm terrified", "I'm a murderer. I killed my father.", "I killed my mother.", which she still hasn't accepted) And I think, that is what Brandon meant by Shallan not completely breaking her bond with Pattern, because she still lived the First Ideal, which also means that he didn't stay in the pRealm as a Shardblade, eventhough he should have, because Shallan was able to summon him, when killing her mother, because their bond wasn't completely broken. Syl didn't, because Kaladin wasn't able to summon her as a Shardblade yet.

Kaladin also had this, because while protecting Elhokar, he chose to completely embrace being a Knight Radiant, he even recites the First and Second Ideal in his head, which I think is what revives Syl, like how Pattern gets revived by Shallan's new Truths, except that she never respeaks, internally or externally, the First Ideal, because she never broke it, which saved him from becoming trapped as a Shardblade.

Long quote (WoR Chapter 84)

Quote

“I ran until . . . until I couldn’t any longer,” Kaladin whispered. “End of . . . the race.”
Life before death.
“I will do it.” Graves. “I will bear this burden.”
“It is my right!” Moash said.
He blinked, eyes resting on the king’s unconscious body just beside him. Still breathing.
I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.
It made sense, now, why he’d had to make this choice. Kaladin rolled to his knees. Graves and Moash were arguing.
“I have to protect him,” Kaladin whispered.
Why?
“If I protect . . .” He coughed. “If I protect . . . only the people I like, it means that I don’t care about doing what is right.” If he did that, he only cared about what was convenient for himself.
That wasn’t protecting. That was selfishness.
Straining, agonized, Kaladin raised one foot. The good foot. Coughing blood, he shoved himself upward and stumbled to his feet between Elhokar and the assassins. Fingers trembling, he felt at his belt, and—after two tries—got his side knife out. He squeezed out tears of pain, and through blurry vision, saw the two Shardbearers looking at him.
Moash slowly raised his faceplate, revealing a stunned expression. “Stormfather . . . Kal, how are you standing?”
It made sense now.
That was why he’d come back. It was about Tien, it was about Dalinar, and it was about what was right—but most of all, it was about protecting people.
This was the man he wanted to be.
Kaladin moved one foot back, touching his heel to the king, forming a battle stance. Then raised his hand before him, knife out. His hand shook like a roof rattling from thunder. He met Moash’s eyes.
Strength before weakness.
“You. Will. Not. Have. Him.”
“Finish this, Moash,” Graves said.
“Storms,” Moash said. “There’s no need. Look at him. He can’t fight back.”
Kaladin felt exhausted. At least he’d stood up.
It was the end. The journey had come and gone.
Shouting. Kaladin heard it now, as if it were closer.
He is mine! a feminine voice said. I claim him.
HE BETRAYED HIS OATH.
“He has seen too much,” Graves said to Moash. “If he lives this day, he’ll betray us. You know my words are true, Moash. Kill him.”
The knife slipped from Kaladin’s fingers, clanging to the ground. He was too weak to hold it. His arm flopped back to his side, and he stared down at the knife, dazed.
I don’t care.
HE WILL KILL YOU.
“I’m sorry, Kal,” Moash said, stepping forward. “I should have made it quick at the start.”
The Words, Kaladin. That was Syl’s voice. You have to speak the Words!
I FORBID THIS.
YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!
“I will protect even those I hate,” Kaladin whispered through bloody lips. “So long as it is right.”
A Shardblade appeared in Moash’s hands.
A distant rumbling. Thunder.
THE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED, the Stormfather said reluctantly.
“Kaladin!” Syl’s voice. “Stretch forth thy hand!” She zipped around him, suddenly visible as a ribbon of light.
“I can’t . . .” Kaladin said, drained.
“Stretch forth thy hand!”
He reached out a trembling hand. Moash hesitated.
Wind blew in the opening in the wall, and Syl’s ribbon of light became mist, a form she often took. Silver mist, which grew larger, coalesced before Kaladin, extending into his hand.
Glowing, brilliant, a Shardblade emerged from the mist, vivid blue light shining from swirling patterns along its length.
Kaladin gasped a deep breath as if coming fully awake for the first time. The entire hallway went black as the Stormlight in every lamp down the length of the hall winked out.
For a moment, they stood in darkness.
Then Kaladin exploded with Light.
It erupted from his body, making him shine like a blazing white sun in the darkness. Moash backed away, face pale in the white brilliance, throwing up a hand to shade his eyes.
Pain evaporated like mist on a hot day. Kaladin’s grip firmed upon the glowing Shardblade, a weapon beside which those of Graves and Moash looked dull. One after another, shutters burst open up and down the hallway, wind screaming into the corridor. Behind Kaladin, frost crystalized on the ground, growing backward away from him. A glyph formed in the frost, almost in the shape of wings.
Graves screamed, falling in his haste to get away. Moash backed up, staring at Kaladin.
“The Knights Radiant,” Kaladin said softly, “have returned.”

I can certainly see some parallels here between speaking new Truths and respeaking Ideals, which results in bond restrengthening/spren revival.

Edited December 2, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

Hi guys, for some reason my quotes aren't working this morning so I'll just drop my thoughts here.

I am just not sure that we need anything magical for Shallan regarding her persona's or eyesight etc.

Sanderson is a big fan of Terry Pratchett. Pratchett's big thing was that you shouldn't use magic wherever possible. Indeed, the idea of the Discworld is that magic is so easy, that the most important thing that Witches and Wizards can do there is know how to do magic, but not do it because it is so dangerous. Both sets actually do very little magic in their stories as a result. Most of the time in fact they get by just doing stuff anyone can do - the most important magical secret essentially being that you just need to know one more thing than the person you are talking to for it to appear magical. As a result, "headology" as practiced by the Witches is basically just normal empathy/psychology with occasional pushes in the right direction with a touch of magic. Most of the time, simply being very good at understanding people is enough - particularly for the most senior witches. 

I think Sanderson might be trying to do this with Shallan via her ability to Connect with people. She can see the "best" person (eg her deserters) within them because once she has a connection she can glimpse at their "Ideal self" (thinking Plato and the Ideal world/ shadows on the wall of the cave stuff - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonism) and help them reach it by illuminating it to them via her drawings. Real people can do this too without magic - ever known someone who makes you want to be the best that you can be? It doesn't take magic to get there. I just think that the magic element of this is that Shallan can Connect faster than in IRL.

Her persona's fit a known problem in psychiatric medicine. Even if he has not done a realistic version of it (tho the more I think about it, the more I get dragged back to it being very accurate for the most part - he may have fudged it for narrative purposes at the end of OB but may get back on track in SA4) he doesn't need it to be magical - it can be a mundane thing with magical highlights. Those magical highlights are the illusions she creates to augment her fragmentation, but I don't think they are necessary for her to fragment in the first place. 

Regarding her creating "the new woman", I think this is a mask not a persona. The reason for this is that we don't see her change her normal thought patterns during it. Shallan still uses Jasnah's notes to guide her during the conference between the highprinces and is shy around Adolin, despite being more controlled than she might have been otherwise. On top of that we see her use her instinct ("it worked in art after all") to get into Sebarial's retinue. It may be the first time we see her alter herself subtly but I think this is a normal/healthy mechanism to use - eg if you go on a blind date with someone you show only your "best" self to them initially and that is what I think Shallan does here. 

I do think she continues to wear her "best" mask for Adolin throughout though she does drop it a couple of times. The first is probably the "poop" incident, which gets him interested on more than an abstract basis, and the second is when she "hisses" at him about not wanting to be protected after she gets out of the chasms. Otherwise, she is "best" Shallan most of the time, and the couple of times we see her be more natural, Adolin seems to miss it. I specifically reference 1) the situation when they are in the carriage and he seems not to notice her hiding pain when she asks to go to the menagerie and 2) When she gets interested in the rocks (the old buildings of Stormseat) and he just walks off, uninterested in what she is doing. There may be other times off screen but I'm not sure. I am still less familiar with OB than WoR so I may have missed situations in OB that suggest he is waking up. The problem is that she obviously fractures in Part 2 and their interactions in Part 1 don't seem that different than WoR imo. Not that I'd expect them to be of course. But once she dissociates, it is clear that we can't trust her as a narrator at all - and she was pretty unreliable in the first place.

Regarding her regression. I agree with @SLNC that Shallan and Kaladin seem to have essentially done the same thing to their spren. Neither Pattern nor Syl were truly dead. I don't think they were "dead-eyes" like Maya for example. Once the bond was rekindled from the human end, they seem to have woken up pretty quickly. Pattern, having been "almost dead" for so much longer, likely took longer to recover. After all, Syl had only been "almost dead" a couple of weeks at most whereas Pattern had been dead 6 years. On top of that Kaladin was overjoyed to get Syl back, Shallan was less pleased about Pattern, both on a conscious and an unconscious level. He expected Syl to be back to normal, whereas Shallan had no conscious feelings about Pattern regarding his state of mind.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

@PhineasGage I know Brandon is a big fan of Terry Pratchett, but I don't think he'd literally use headology with a character like Shallan, though he might well use similar concepts - Shallan does use "social engineering" type techniques. Incidentally, Moist von Lipwig reminds me somewhat of Shallan - they have a number of differences but they also have a number of similarities. They're sort of in the same area, an area that is very lightly populated by protagonists in fantasy.

However, your idea did get me thinking. Brandon has said before that what Shallan did with the deserters is something we've seen before yet something surprising:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/61-firefight-seattle-ubooks-signing/#e1298

 

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Wetlander

The bit with the bandits out there, and the deserters, and she [Shallan] convinces them to all go... Was she doing Lightweaving? Was she doing Transformation? Was she doing some combination?

Brandon Sanderson

She was... You have seen what she was doing before, done by another character.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/62-firefight-seattle-public-library-signing/#e3068

 

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Questioner

My first question is about Shallan and whether what she does with her drawings and the deserters in Words of Radiance, kind of changing them, is at all similar to what Shai does in The Emperor's Soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, that's a good question. There are similarities, but only so much that The Emperor's Soul is cosmere and is relying on the same foundation of magic. But good question. Are you getting at me saying you've seen somebody do it before?

Questioner

I talked to Alice.

Brandon Sanderson

So you have seen what she does before, but that is not what I was pointing at. It's someth-- No one is going to expect it.

So here's an idea, what if it's somehow related to the burning of Allomatic gold or electrum...?

There's some discrepancies in the above two quotes though - some is specifically talking about when Shallan turned the deserters and some is talking about how she changed them later on with her drawings (something she also seemingly did with Elhokar in OB). The drawings feel like the use of Allomatic electrum. I don't think that would work during the initial conversion of the deserters though - that feels a bit more like something from rioting/soothing emotions... but maybe there is some relationship to electrum as Shallan does specifically promise them change and a new future after all. It could also be related to the general Cosmere concept of Fortune.

On a side note, there is this part from OB:

Quote

“There are spren,” Shallan said to the gathered crowd, using Lightweaving to twist and warp her voice, “and there are spren. You followed the dark ones. They whisper for you to abandon yourselves. They lie.”

The cultists gasped.

“We do not want your devotion. When have spren ever demanded your devotion? Stop dancing in the streets and be men and women again. Strip off those idiotic costumes and return to your families!”

They didn’t move quickly enough, so she sent her tassels streaming upward, curling about one another, lengthening. A powerful light flashed from her.

“Go!” she shouted.

This feels related to the example of turning the deserters.

 

PS Regarding Shallan possibly using personas in WoR, I agree that she didn't. She's going through a significant amount of character development and on top of that she is deliberately put on an act at certain times. The only times when we seem to see her personality genuinely change is during the various "coldness of clarity" moments, but that doesn't feel like a persona to me. I would also add that both Shallan and Adolin are keeping a mask on to various degrees early on in their relationship - on both sides this starts to come off quite significantly during the "Watching the world transform" chapter in the winehouse. Afterwards, both are much more relaxed around each other.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Incidentally, Moist von Lipwig reminds me somewhat of Shallan

This is very important. I feel that Moist von Lipwig is the sort of person Shallan was trying to be. The difference is that for Shallan, it developed into OSDD. Also, there's a WoB I'd like to put here for discussion, because it seems relevant.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8200

LadyKnightRadiant [PENDING REVIEW]

So you're really good at ending books, especially like post-climax resolution that I feel is always my real weak point. I always find that I tend to write things that end up sounding really, really cheesy. I feel like you have, like, perfected the, like, decent resolution that's not horrifically cheesy. I was wondering if you have like any tips on how to end things properly.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

It's all about promises, right, and I've talked about this a lot. Like, what-- remember that the ending, if you've earned it-- Cheesiness is based on whether the reader is on board with you or not-- Cheesiness is not like this intrinsic property of a scene. Cheesiness is, are they on board? Do they want this? Have you done a good job with this? So if you get people on board-- yeah.

[Cenanin]

On 11/27/2017 at 7:28 AM, kari-no-sugata said:

This is hard for me to answer since it's the main problem I have with OB - it's too vague here. Particularly since Shallan has so obviously been shown to be an unreliable narrator for the whole series.

Wit seems to be saying that she is able to stand up because she has forgiven herself, but it doesn't really feel like she has. There's certainly no scene where she clearly forgives herself properly.

In the "Aim for the sun" chapter, Wit does also encourage her to be less down on herself / to be happy:

Well, she's certainly happy at the end.

For the scene quoted in the OP, there is a callback to this in chapter 97:

It feels like she does this in the last scene. She allows herself the right to have come this far, to allow herself to be happy, that it's okay to be happy, that it's okay to deserve this. After that she stops feeling embarrassed. Unfortunately, it feels rather corny. It also feels incomplete (even if we ignore her personas).

I think it would be highly unlikely that the next book starts with Shallan in a bad state. After all, that would be way too much of a repeat of OB. So, logically... I would expect her to be in a better place in the next book. She still has internal problems to solve of course. There's also her Final Ideal to deal with as well - I think her progress towards her Final Ideal will be a big part of the next book. So I think we're supposed to view Shallan in the end as having made real progress but also that further progress is still required.

Anyway, that's what logic tells me. But my inner cynic suggests that Shallan is going to revert to her bad old ways as soon as we turn our backs on her. This is because the text is much too vague on Shallan's progress at the end. Because of this, I'm having trouble accepting it emotionally (and it actually left me rather depressed after finishing reading the book).

Edit: With regards to Adolin... Shallan believes he helps her at least. 

He definitely does listen to her properly. Sometimes there's not much he can say but he does what he can to comfort and support her. She is more relaxed around him. She tends to be herself more around him. He helps Shallan regain dominance over her personas in the end. I personally thought it was really important that he told her that he just wants her (Shallan) as she is. This means she doesn't have to force herself around him, or to keep a mask on herself around him, or try to come up with new masks in order to please him.

I think Adolin approving of Shallan herself plays a big part in how she resolves her internal issues at the end. It helps give Shallan self-confidence and self-worth. I think it could have been portrayed much better but that's what I think is going on. It's rather subjective though and open to debate though, unfortunately.

It's super vague to me. When Veil/Radiant/Shallan is interacting with other people before the wedding and even before the battle, is she just going full schizo and talking like Veil/Radiant/Shallan and alternating between them during sentences, or are there actually 3 of them? This was super confusing and not really clarified.

[kari-no-sugata]

Some new WoBs:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418

 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

How was Shallan able to bond with Pattern before she was broken?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

She was open to him even before she went through a lot of that turmoil

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

I thought everybody had to be broken in order to...

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Well, that's their philosophy in-world. But I'm not going to say whether it's correct or wrong... I will imply that there are other means as well.

Hmm. Well, certainly Shallan went through a lot of turmoil after she bonded Pattern originally. So how much turmoil did she go through beforehand? Hard to say what to read into this compared to what Pattern himself says in WoR. Perhaps Shallan was only slightly broken the first time she ever did Lightweaving but it got worse over the years and that was how she was able to bond him...?

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8427

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

There's a lot of situations where people hear voices or see visions, stuff like that. What would be the effect, if somebody had something like mental condition like schizophrenia or multiple personality? Because a lot of the magic is about their will, you know?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Schizophrenia in the cosmere is going to... So, anytime you're seeing the future, and things like that, you're kinda glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm. That's why it happens so often, because the magic systems are the way they work, are coming down from the Spiritual Realm. Schizophrenia will make you more open to that, so you are actually more able to see the future. But you won't be able to tell it from the things your mind is making up, which is gonna be really dangerous.

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

So, what if you had, like, one personality wanna do one thing, and another one trying to do something else, would it cancel each other out?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Not necessarily. I mean, we're going a little that direction with Shallan, anyway. You'll see.

Since Oathbringer has just come out, it's quite possible that Brandon is referring to OB here (because he wouldn't know if the questioner has read OB or not) or after OB. I think both would be valid since Shallan certainly has her personas at the end of OB.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8548

 

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Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Could you speak to anything about *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

I wanted different spren to look drastically different. And, as I was building, like, I wanted a lot of the spren of a lot of the Orders of Knights Radiant to kind of have an internal, natural conflict. Like, that's one of the division lines between spren that's not sapient, and spren that is. For instance, Windrunner, honorspren, right? Honor is about rigidity in a lot of ways, and Syl is the embodiment of a lot of the opposite of that. And Pattern, who is so interested in lies, is a mathematical equation. This sort of thing, like naming the inkspren Ivory, I just want that internal, natural contrast to be part of them. And Pattern, I really wanted a spren that wasn't just another ball of light. 'Cause Syl is basically a ball of light. And a lot of the others are basically balls of light. And I'm like, I need something that's different, I want something that looks different, that feels different. That's where I went.

Pattern does refer to Cryptics as being (physics based) mathematical equations so this isn't really new, but this does clarify that there is a pattern in the contrasts between what the spren "are" and what "attracts" them.

I wonder what highspren are going to be like, then...

 

[PhineasGage]

16 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

There's some discrepancies in the above two quotes though - some is specifically talking about when Shallan turned the deserters and some is talking about how she changed them later on with her drawings (something she also seemingly did with Elhokar in OB). The drawings feel like the use of Allomatic electrum. I don't think that would work during the initial conversion of the deserters though - that feels a bit more like something from rioting/soothing emotions... but maybe there is some relationship to electrum as Shallan does specifically promise them change and a new future after all. It could also be related to the general Cosmere concept of Fortune.

So I love this idea but I think it isn't quite there yet. I was under the impression that electrum gave you the ability to look at yourself in the future if I understood correctly. Not that it matters per se - presumably because Shallan is accessing the future options another way. Bit of a problem is she is seeing the future (it is of Odium on Roshar after all) even if she is doing so unconsciously.

I had always assumed that what Shallan was doing was "illuminating" the ideal person possible to each of the deserters. Perhaps she is actually illuminating a possibly future for them if they make the "right" choices to get there? She potentially is "seeing" a long way past a few seconds then. I actually thought this was what Renarin does when he heals Adolin (and Adolin sees a vision of himself perfected). We now know Renarin can see the future - but perhaps Shallan's vision of it is so much less obvious that it doesn't count as a problem?

Or we need to watch her for Odium corruption....

Regarding Emperor's Soul:

Spoiler

I still think what she does with the deserters is more like Shai working through a soul stamp. She made them change for a moment but she then has to do other things over and over again to make it "stick" and even then, when she stops interacting with them, it seems many of them leave her service. Only a handful are left I think ? Shai specifically says that the emperor may not need stamping in the future once he has managed to learn and change enough on his own to make it permanent. I think this is what Shallan does though it is much less conscious. I agree that the pictures are somewhat different and may represent a different idea that can still be accessed either via illumination or transformation.

 

 

16 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

The only times when we seem to see her personality genuinely change is during the various "coldness of clarity" moments, but that doesn't feel like a persona to me. I would also add that both Shallan and Adolin are keeping a mask on to various degrees early on in their relationship - on both sides this starts to come off quite significantly during the "Watching the world transform" chapter in the winehouse. Afterwards, both are much more relaxed around each other.

I agree. I think the coldness moments are straightforwrd dissociations. They are "normal" in periods of stress. I also agree that both Shallan and Adolin wear masks, but I think Shallan's is kept on longer than Adolin's. We see her lie repeatedly to him and still play the same role, even after he has essentially dropped his mask. Given that Jasnah would have included her family in her search for Urithiru, it seems odd to me that Shallan would do so little to get their assistance in this matter - but she goes out of her way to avoid asking them for help. The closest she gets is asking Navani (which fails) but she never seems to broach the actual subject of her "quest" to Adolin, let alone anyone else in the Kholin household. I get that she was worried about revealing her skills as a surgebinder, but I'm not sure that being open with them would have caused her any trouble?

 

13 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Brandon:

"It's all about promises, right, and I've talked about this a lot. Like, what-- remember that the ending, if you've earned it-- Cheesiness is based on whether the reader is on board with you or not-- Cheesiness is not like this intrinsic property of a scene. Cheesiness is, are they on board? Do they want this? Have you done a good job with this? So if you get people on board-- yeah."

Um, is he saying what I think he's saying? Am I back to whining about the end or not? 

9 hours ago, Cenanin said:

It's super vague to me. When Veil/Radiant/Shallan is interacting with other people before the wedding and even before the battle, is she just going full schizo and talking like Veil/Radiant/Shallan and alternating between them during sentences, or are there actually 3 of them? This was super confusing and not really clarified.

Quick aside - "schizo" is not a helpful or kind term - please don't use it. Firstly, it refers to a completely different psychiatric condition and secondly it is also derogatory.

I hope I can explain. Shallan is not 3 people. She is 1 person. She has one body which she can alter the appearance of via an illusion but she is still one person. She has 3 identities that see themselves as individuals. Think of yourself - you probably identify in multiple ways - eg your role within your family, your job / school identity, and perhaps a club/organisation you belong to - even a political party for example. Shallan's situation is that rather than identify all the aspects of herself in one ovrarching identity, she splits them apart and gives them different names. They have different behaviour and thought patterns because she has also separated some of her personality traits to go with each identity to make each one more robust for its role in her life. She is not aware she has done this, and she does not know that they are all facets of a single whole.

So in order to clarify, she is one persom, but she sees herself as three. Make sense?

As an aside, schizophrenia is not related to having multiple identities or "split minds" (despite its name) - it is a psychotic condition that causes hallucinations and formal thought disorder. Its causes and management are completely different to Shallan's case. The person with schizophrenia will only have one core identity and does not separate elements of their core personality.

43 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I wonder what highspren are going to be like, then...

Yeah this is really interesting. To me he seems to be pointing to the idea almost that "opposites attract" - not in a specific sense, but I kind get the idea that he wants spren to specifically be interested in things that they don't instinctively get. Does that make sense? I'm an atheist and find religion faith fascinating because I just don;t get it - and I kind of feel he's aiming at that here? Wait, does that make me a spren? Mind. Blown.

So if Highspren are intrinsically interested in the law, are they essentially chaos spren?

[kari-no-sugata]

30 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So I love this idea but I think it isn't quite there yet. I was under the impression that electrum gave you the ability to look at yourself in the future if I understood correctly. Not that it matters per se - presumably because Shallan is accessing the future options another way. Bit of a problem is she is seeing the future (it is of Odium on Roshar after all) even if she is doing so unconsciously.

Just to be clear, I was considering the underlying mechanism behind burning electrum. We do see local variations on common Cosmere themes.

30 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I had always assumed that what Shallan was doing was "illuminating" the ideal person possible to each of the deserters. Perhaps she is actually illuminating a possibly future for them if they make the "right" choices to get there? She potentially is "seeing" a long way past a few seconds then. I actually thought this was what Renarin does when he heals Adolin (and Adolin sees a vision of himself perfected). We now know Renarin can see the future - but perhaps Shallan's vision of it is so much less obvious that it doesn't count as a problem?

Or we need to watch her for Odium corruption....

Honor made his visions due to his fears of the future so I don't think we should take anything that in any way hints about possible future directions as being uniquely tied to Odium, especially since we know what burning Atium does. Wit specifically warns Shallan about anyone who claims to be able see the future and includes himself, but I very much doubt Wit sees himself as being tainted by Odium - just that seeing the future itself is dangerous.

I wouldn't regard seeing a possible alternative self or possible future self for a single person in isolation as being able to see the future. More like, seeing someone's "hidden potential". So yes, more like seeing a perfected version of yourself.

 

30 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Regarding Emperor's Soul:

  Hide contents

I still think what she does with the deserters is more like Shai working through a soul stamp. She made them change for a moment but she then has to do other things over and over again to make it "stick" and even then, when she stops interacting with them, it seems many of them leave her service. Only a handful are left I think ? Shai specifically says that the emperor may not need stamping in the future once he has managed to learn and change enough on his own to make it permanent. I think this is what Shallan does though it is much less conscious. I agree that the pictures are somewhat different and may represent a different idea that can still be accessed either via illumination or transformation.

Hmm. I think the drawings themselves are just Shallan using Illumination. However, maybe if the person she gives it to accepts it then maybe that allows them to "transform" themselves, somehow? As in, it's almost like a contract? Ooh! Here's an idea: we know that paintings from Nathis (like those presented to the Court of the Gods) can have effects on people if they're Invested. So, what about a painting of a specific person, something that captures a tiny bit of their soul? For the person in question, maybe a special painting of them can have an effect even if they're not specifically Invested? (Well, we do know that the people on Roshar are particularly healthy due to all the Investiture sloshing around from the highstorms)

Related crazy thought... for when Shallan turned the deserters originally, perhaps that somehow relates to the squire bond? As in, by connecting with them (due to her illusions) maybe a very weak bond of sorts forms temporarily, and that connection can allow Shallan's feelings or desires to seep through somehow? So if she couldn't connect with them by understanding their perspective then she wouldn't have been able to "transform" them? The distinction between the Surges starts to become funny once we consider odd effects like this. I hope Brandon doesn't get too coy about explaining this scene.

 

30 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree. I think the coldness moments are straightforwrd dissociations. They are "normal" in periods of stress. I also agree that both Shallan and Adolin wear masks, but I think Shallan's is kept on longer than Adolin's. We see her lie repeatedly to him and still play the same role, even after he has essentially dropped his mask. Given that Jasnah would have included her family in her search for Urithiru, it seems odd to me that Shallan would do so little to get their assistance in this matter - but she goes out of her way to avoid asking them for help. The closest she gets is asking Navani (which fails) but she never seems to broach the actual subject of her "quest" to Adolin, let alone anyone else in the Kholin household. I get that she was worried about revealing her skills as a surgebinder, but I'm not sure that being open with them would have caused her any trouble?

I think you're rather overstating things about Shallan lying to Adolin etc but such things are very subjective. I would say that in both cases they are more open with each other in OB.

Regarding Shallan and Navani, she does try. She tells Adolin that she's tried multiple times and has been repeatedly ignored. Adolin even offers to try to help Shallan with Navani.

Shallan does test the waters with a major aspect of her quest with Adolin (that the parshmen are the voidbringers) and judges from his reaction that the only way she'll get anywhere is if she can first convince Navani based on Jasnah's notes.

 

30 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Um, is he saying what I think he's saying? Am I back to whining about the end or not? 

A large part of the reason why Brandon uses beta/gamma readers is to verify that his intentions carry through... but if we compare such a thing to (say) sampling potential voters about their specific voting intentions there are huge scopes for error based on the sample set size, the sample set composition, the way the questions are worded etc. And even then there can be outliers.

I don't think Brandon would be offended or anything like that if you ever got a chance to explain to him that "such and such didn't work for me". I've seen him talk a number of times about how he felt he got some things wrong.

 

30 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Yeah this is really interesting. To me he seems to be pointing to the idea almost that "opposites attract" - not in a specific sense, but I kind get the idea that he wants spren to specifically be interested in things that they don't instinctively get. Does that make sense? I'm an atheist and find religion faith fascinating because I just don;t get it - and I kind of feel he's aiming at that here? Wait, does that make me a spren? Mind. Blown.

I'm a lifelong atheist but I enjoy reading about Shallan as a religious moderate and also the general discussions on religion in the books. I was actually disappointed there wasn't more religious related commentary from Shallan - given everything that was going on I would have expected more. It could have played into her arc in interesting ways but it seemed to be forgotten.

30 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So if Highspren are intrinsically interested in the law, are they essentially chaos spren?

I dunno if all the spren will be like this but we shall see. I did briefly wonder if the mist-like spren on the honorspren ship might be highspren but I quickly decided it was unlikely. I don't know if highspren would be "chaos" - that feels like too pure an opposite. Maybe confusionspren? heh.

[Dreamstorm]

On 12/2/2017 at 5:01 AM, PhineasGage said:

Regarding her creating "the new woman", I think this is a mask not a persona. The reason for this is that we don't see her change her normal thought patterns during it. Shallan still uses Jasnah's notes to guide her during the conference between the highprinces and is shy around Adolin, despite being more controlled than she might have been otherwise. On top of that we see her use her instinct ("it worked in art after all") to get into Sebarial's retinue. It may be the first time we see her alter herself subtly but I think this is a normal/healthy mechanism to use - eg if you go on a blind date with someone you show only your "best" self to them initially and that is what I think Shallan does here. 

I do think she continues to wear her "best" mask for Adolin throughout though she does drop it a couple of times. The first is probably the "poop" incident, which gets him interested on more than an abstract basis, and the second is when she "hisses" at him about not wanting to be protected after she gets out of the chasms. Otherwise, she is "best" Shallan most of the time, and the couple of times we see her be more natural, Adolin seems to miss it. I specifically reference 1) the situation when they are in the carriage and he seems not to notice her hiding pain when she asks to go to the menagerie and 2) When she gets interested in the rocks (the old buildings of Stormseat) and he just walks off, uninterested in what she is doing. There may be other times off screen but I'm not sure. I am still less familiar with OB than WoR so I may have missed situations in OB that suggest he is waking up. The problem is that she obviously fractures in Part 2 and their interactions in Part 1 don't seem that different than WoR imo. Not that I'd expect them to be of course. But once she dissociates, it is clear that we can't trust her as a narrator at all - and she was pretty unreliable in the first place.

Can you point to a passage where you feel she actively starts disassociating?  I had forgotten about the Lightweaving (I'm pretty sure it's that) prior to meeting the Alethi court for the first time, so that was a new thing for me when I re-read that scene, and it really stood out in terms of what we see in OB.  I'm curious as to where others draw the line at where Shallan's persona creation goes from "coping mechanism we all use" (like the date example) to "mental health disorder."  I totally agree we are 100% there by the middle of OB, but unsure as to where it all originated.

19 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

The only times when we seem to see her personality genuinely change is during the various "coldness of clarity" moments, but that doesn't feel like a persona to me.

Per the above, can you let me know where these are?  Sorry for making everyone point out passages!  I'm very curious as to Shallan's timeline. Kind of relevant to the other (pretty gross IMO) thread about hating Shallan, I actually find myself much more interested in her post-OB.  Yes, much of that interest comes from "negative" things she does (the split personalities, her jarring ending), but it did serve to make me more invested in trying to trace her emotional/mental journey and understanding (the best I can) what she is going through.  E.g., I'm much more intrigued with her WoK viewpoints now than in my prior read of the book, as before I saw it more as worldbuilding as much as Shallan-building, but I've changed my mind on that.

17 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

It's all about promises, right, and I've talked about this a lot. Like, what-- remember that the ending, if you've earned it-- Cheesiness is based on whether the reader is on board with you or not-- Cheesiness is not like this intrinsic property of a scene. Cheesiness is, are they on board? Do they want this? Have you done a good job with this? So if you get people on board-- yeah.

 

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Um, is he saying what I think he's saying? Am I back to whining about the end or not? 

I am, obviously, pretty firm in my opinion about what happened at the end of OB, and so I see this as just supporting it - I've seen him write better/more satisfying endings, so I don't think he wanted us on board.  Even Vin and Elend, who had the "cheesiest" romance I've read in Brandon's books so far, didn't have this level of cheesiness (without you I fade, the over-the-top "I'm happy" moment, not to mention the looking into eyes, holding hand, seeing the "real" her moment.)  I think these moments are pretty objectively cheesy.  The fact that I, as a non-writer who could never, ever write at the level he does, can think of minor tweaks which would sell Shallan's ending in OB better in order to counteract this cheesiness (and, honestly, the fact this cheesiness was included at all), and knowing that Brandon worked a lot on the end of Shallan's romantic arc (he says so him self in the reddit post), makes me think we're not supposed to be on board with it.  I'm obviously biased, though 

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

A large part of the reason why Brandon uses beta/gamma readers is to verify that his intentions carry through... but if we compare such a thing to (say) sampling potential voters about their specific voting intentions there are huge scopes for error based on the sample set size, the sample set composition, the way the questions are worded etc. And even then there can be outliers.

I don't think Brandon would be offended or anything like that if you ever got a chance to explain to him that "such and such didn't work for me". I've seen him talk a number of times about how he felt he got some things wrong.

I would love to get a WoB with someone expressing this point of view... (not sold on Shallan's ending.)  I also think beta readers can be a biased group (not even about this arc in particular.)  I think they are chosen because they are super fans (correct me if I'm wrong!), so I wonder if they are biased to accept what they are shown due to a little bit of hero worship.  I see the beta readers as more for continuity errors and pointing out where realmatic items don't hang throughout the books (because they know the cosmere so well), but I could be very wrong about the process.  We do know he worked on the romantic arc a lot, and that some of that work was based on beta feedback seeing Shallan and Veil as too separate (beta readers thought there were four people in the triangle instead of three.)  I see this as supporting that these personas are all part of the real Shallan, and that the avoidance/pushing down of any persona's feelings does not lead to a complete decision.

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm a lifelong atheist but I enjoy reading about Shallan as a religious moderate and also the general discussions on religion in the books. I was actually disappointed there wasn't more religious related commentary from Shallan - given everything that was going on I would have expected more. It could have played into her arc in interesting ways but it seemed to be forgotten.

I had forgotten she was in the Devotary of Purity!!  I'm a little sad we haven't had Vorinism, and Callings and Devotaries, fleshed out a bit more.  I'm hoping since we're set up for a major conflict with the Vorin Church we may see more of this, but given so many potential plotlines bubbling around, I'm doubtful it will have too much emphasis.

[kari-no-sugata]

27 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Per the above, can you let me know where these are?  Sorry for making everyone point out passages!  I'm very curious as to Shallan's timeline. Kind of relevant to the other (pretty gross IMO) thread about hating Shallan, I actually find myself much more interested in her post-OB.  Yes, much of that interest comes from "negative" things she does (the split personalities, her jarring ending), but it did serve to make me more invested in trying to trace her emotional/mental journey and understanding (the best I can) what she is going through.  E.g., I'm much more intrigued with her WoK viewpoints now than in my prior read of the book, as before I saw it more as worldbuilding as much as Shallan-building, but I've changed my mind on that.

Chapter 20 "The coldness of clarity":

Quote

Shallan shivered, eyes wide at the sudden slaughter below. Then she turned and walked to Tvlakv’s wagons. This sudden chill was familiar to her. The coldness of clarity. She knew what she had to do. She didn’t know if it would work, but she saw the solution – like lines in a drawing, coming together to transform random scribbles into a full picture.

Chapter 70 "From a nightmare". Kaladin's POV so not verified but I suspect this is her "coldness of clarity":

Quote

At the next intersection, Shallan turned the opposite way from the one he had picked. Kaladin cursed, pounding to a stop and running after her.

‘This is no time,’ he said, puffing, ‘to argue about—’

‘Shut it,’ she said. ‘Follow.’

 

Chapter 73 "A thousand scurrying creatures":

Quote

Shallan felt cold as she stepped into the hallway. That coldness . . . was that panic? Overwhelming panic, so sharp and strong it washed away everything else.

This had been coming. She’d known this had been coming. They tried to hide, they tried to flee. Of course that wouldn’t work.

It hadn’t worked with Mother either.

Later in same chapter:

Quote

Shallan forced herself to her feet. Coldness. Yes, she recognized that coldness inside of her now. She’d felt it before, on the day when she’d lost her mother.

So, once when she killed her mother, once when she killed her father, once with the deserters and possibly once when attacked by the chasmfiend (she led it back to the corpses as a distraction).

I think she would have gone into "coldness of clarity" mode at the end of WoR with Mraize except by then she had become strong enough not to immediately go into an extreme panic mode.

 

27 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I am, obviously, pretty firm in my opinion about what happened at the end of OB, and so I see this as just supporting it - I've seen him write better/more satisfying endings, so I don't think he wanted us on board.  Even Vin and Elend, who had the "cheesiest" romance I've read in Brandon's books so far, didn't have this level of cheesiness (without you I fade, the over-the-top "I'm happy" moment, not to mention the looking into eyes, holding hand, seeing the "real" her moment.)  I think these moments are pretty objectively cheesy.  The fact that I, as a non-writer who could never, ever write at the level he does, can think of minor tweaks which would sell Shallan's ending in OB better in order to counteract this cheesiness (and, honestly, the fact this cheesiness was included at all), and knowing that Brandon worked a lot on the end of Shallan's romantic arc (he says so him self in the reddit post), makes me think we're not supposed to be on board with it.  I'm obviously biased, though 

To be honest, I'm still quite on the fence about what Brandon wanted readers to feel at the end of OB.

It could be said that Shallan's whole life is one of being screwed over by events. Forced to kill her mother. Forced to kill her father. Just when she had a brief bit of hope, Jasnah is "killed", leaving Shallan as the only one left to try to accomplish Jasnah's goals (or so she thought at the time). This also left Shallan literally washed up on shore. She spends the rest of the book practically killing herself to solve the problems and her reward is to be forced to progress as a Lightweaver, pretty much against her will. This leaves her in massive mental pain but events force her to overuse her personas and even directly confront an Unmade. Kaladin and Jasnah basically return with the worst timing and Shallan is more mentally torn than before. Her problems in Parts 2-3 were pretty much self-inflicted though and at least for only the 3rd time ever she had someone simply help her out (the other 2 being Helaran in her flashbacks and Wit in her flashbacks). At the end she is required to do a massive amount of Lightweaving that constantly causes her pain (damaging her soul) and leaves her personas messing her up more than ever.

(This is not to say that other characters aren't screwed over by events. I'm not trying to say Shallan has it worst either but I do think it's so bad that such distinctions don't matter)

So maybe Adolin helping Shallan at the end is a bit of payback for all this...? If so, I don't think it felt particularly believable and it's easy to be cynical about Shallan's situation at the end.

I think it's likely that Brandon wanted to show that Shallan had made some progress but still had a ways to go but I think there's some basic problems: he overdid the "crazy" (it's hammed in far too much that Shallan keeps getting worse) and the solution at the end is too quick, too arbitrary and too vague. And yes, too cheesy.

 

On a somewhat related note, I didn't like the ending to Warbreaker much either. Felt too much like Vivi was simply tossing aside all her character development to run off with her boyfriend.

 

27 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I would love to get a WoB with someone expressing this point of view... (not sold on Shallan's ending.)  I also think beta readers can be a biased group (not even about this arc in particular.)  I think they are chosen because they are super fans (correct me if I'm wrong!), so I wonder if they are biased to accept what they are shown due to a little bit of hero worship.  I see the beta readers as more for continuity errors and pointing out where realmatic items don't hang throughout the books (because they know the cosmere so well), but I could be very wrong about the process.  We do know he worked on the romantic arc a lot, and that some of that work was based on beta feedback seeing Shallan and Veil as too separate (beta readers thought there were four people in the triangle instead of three.)  I see this as supporting that these personas are all part of the real Shallan, and that the avoidance/pushing down of any persona's feelings does not lead to a complete decision.

I can't really comment on the quality of the beta-reading (or gamma) since I have no idea what the before/after was and what actual points were raised. I don't know what the beta readers really felt about Shallan's ending and whether anything was changed or not - my impression is that there were no real changes to the ending for her part, at least from the beta-readers.

When I met Brandon on Tuesday I did tell him that the Adolin staring into her eyes thing and this helping Shallan didn't work for me - that it was too big a leap of faith compared to the limited foreshadowing in Part 4.

 

27 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I had forgotten she was in the Devotary of Purity!!  I'm a little sad we haven't had Vorinism, and Callings and Devotaries, fleshed out a bit more.  I'm hoping since we're set up for a major conflict with the Vorin Church we may see more of this, but given so many potential plotlines bubbling around, I'm doubtful it will have too much emphasis.

In WoR, there was this hint that Shallan was thinking of changing her Devotary. I had wondered if she would try to visit some religious place in Jah Keved (in the capital at least) after the Oathgate there opened. But, nope. Nothing. She gave no indication about caring about her homeland or what Taravangian had done either.