[OB] Culture Shift Consequences

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, I was going to do a post specifically about Renarin, but I realized there's more here to delve into. At the end of OB, Dalinar learns to read and write. This is an enormous change in everything about Vorin society. I guess this thread is to discuss what that, combined with female KR and squires, will do to Vorin, and ultimately, Rosharan culture.

I'll start with this. I am SO happy for Renarin right now. Dalinar just showing up to a scholar's meeting was enough to not only boost Renarin's confidence, but also hush derisive voices. But now the freaking BLACKTHORN has started writing a book. By hand. I feel like this should at the very least shatter Renarin's apprehension about pursuing scholarship while still being a warrior. That was his main concern, balancing his interests and what he likes with what his father expects of him. If his father can learn to read and write, I feel that Renarin can finally live both lives he seems to want to lead. Jasnah, Dalinar, even Bridge four to some extent, think he has to choose one or the other, but he no longer has to. I cannnot express how happy it makes me that Renarin gets this chance. 

Alright, Renarin gushing over, what other repercussions do you think this is going to have on Roshar?

[kaellok he/him]

Society enforces societal norms, and people who act outside of the preconceived expectations are generally punished--such as by declaring 'turns out you never were who we thought you were.'  Occasionally, someone will get a pass, and be allowed to be the exception.

Given that society itself is falling apart, it is possible that Dalinar will not be punished in this same way in Book 4 and beyond, and that a more egalitarian society may start to form around the Urithuru coalition.  If it does, then I think it will be far more due to the end of the world than Dalinar taking up a pen.  Remember, though, that there will always be people that cling all the harder to their beliefs in times of stress and danger, and an entire society that was devoted to bringing about a return of Desolations because they think Vorinism has become too weak.  

For many, many people I would expect the end of the world to cause them to cling all the more strongly to the most hardline of their beliefs.  After all, perhaps what is happening is because Stormwardens tried to predict when the Highstorms would occur, and men began to write using glyphs.  That was bad enough, but now they want to write words too?!  Never forget: fanatics can be crazy.

[Greywatch she/her]

I had this thought, too! Being that it's the apocalypse, and all of a sudden social consequences have lost a lot of their bite...? This seems like Dalinar and his family have started to significantly and consciously tear down the walls of Alethi gender norms, and Vorinism doesn't have a lot of power to do more than excommunicate them. I feel like Vorinism has lost a lot of power over the course of OB, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised in SA4 we find out they have more clout than I thought. 

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

The biggest culture shock I think will come from learning about the notations women have been making without men knowing or narrating for years. I can see that causing some huge trust issues and schisms, especially if high profile rulers come to find out their scribes have been contradicting them in their records.

[Dreamstorm]

Uttterly wild stab in the dark, but could Vorinism/the Heirocracy somehow be related to Odium? Dividing useful skills by sex seems like a handy way to inhibit a society. (There's probably a WoB or something else which completely discredits this idea though!)

[Greywatch she/her]

I don't see it, but I can't deny it would be a pretty horrifying shock for them!

[Angsos]

don't attribute everything to Odium because human stupidity can do very well all by itself.

[She Who Cannot Be Named she/her]

There's not just that... Alethkar now has officially an Heretic on the throne, and Dalinar was ex-communicated from Vorinism. Granted, with a new Desolation it's chull dung that half the population is not allowed to wield weapons, and the other half cannot even write a report by spanreed. But there are always some fanatics around who'd rather go down on someone acting against their belief instead of seeing the bigger picture :-( (Or, well, your usual fanatics who see the bigger picture and use it for their ends with complete disregard of anyone else... "Sons of Honor" ) 

[Dryone_2]

There's also lots of female shardbearers around.

[straits]

I think another big shift is that of class, in Alethi society particularly - which was in particular facilitated by the emergence of former darkeyed bridge slaves turned Windrunners, and the collaboration of their captain with Dalinar. The latter seems willing to upset the social order in Alethkar by awarding Kaladin with land of his own. I haven't looked into the books to find if darkeyes were allowed to own land, but if not, this is a major shift. 

[kenod]

10 minutes ago, straits said:

I think another big shift is that of class, in Alethi society particularly - which was in particular facilitated by the emergence of former darkeyed bridge slaves turned Windrunners, and the collaboration of their captain with Dalinar. The latter seems willing to upset the social order in Alethkar by awarding Kaladin with land of his own. I haven't looked into the books to find if darkeyes were allowed to own land, but if not, this is a major shift. 

Kaladin getting land isn't an issue, as according to Vorin tradition, he is a lighteye, because he owns a shardblade.

[Valand]

6 minutes ago, straits said:

I think another big shift is that of class, in Alethi society particularly - which was in particular facilitated by the emergence of former darkeyed bridge slaves turned Windrunners, and the collaboration of their captain with Dalinar. The latter seems willing to upset the social order in Alethkar by awarding Kaladin with land of his own. I haven't looked into the books to find if darkeyes were allowed to own land, but if not, this is a major shift. 

Considering that lowest rank for lighteyes who owns (or can own not sure) land is 6 dahn I very much doubt it. Kaladin is a Shardbearer so he should be at least 4 dahn however. Not to mention all this Radiant business.

[straits]

43 minutes ago, Ookla the Introverted said:

Kaladin getting land isn't an issue, as according to Vorin tradition, he is a lighteye, because he owns a shardblade.

I would think that a spren bond (and the resulting shardblade) would be categorized differently on account of the KR status, but yeah, that makes sense.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

21 hours ago, kaellok said:

Society enforces societal norms, and people who act outside of the preconceived expectations are generally punished--such as by declaring 'turns out you never were who we thought you were.'  Occasionally, someone will get a pass, and be allowed to be the exception.

Given that society itself is falling apart, it is possible that Dalinar will not be punished in this same way in Book 4 and beyond, and that a more egalitarian society may start to form around the Urithuru coalition.  If it does, then I think it will be far more due to the end of the world than Dalinar taking up a pen.  Remember, though, that there will always be people that cling all the harder to their beliefs in times of stress and danger, and an entire society that was devoted to bringing about a return of Desolations because they think Vorinism has become too weak.  

For many, many people I would expect the end of the world to cause them to cling all the more strongly to the most hardline of their beliefs.  After all, perhaps what is happening is because Stormwardens tried to predict when the Highstorms would occur, and men began to write using glyphs.  That was bad enough, but now they want to write words too?!  Never forget: fanatics can be crazy.

I guess my point was not more widely societal, and not considering the fanatics. My point was that if someone tries to give Renarin guff about being a scholar, he can point to his father, as a Warrior learning to read, and at Jasnah, as the queen who is an atheist. To me, it's more about Renarin, and people like him, gaining a confidence boost because some major people in positions of power and renown have taken the first step, meaning it becomes easier for more people to do the same. Society will push back, but Dalinar can become someone to rally behind as an example.

[kaellok he/him]

4 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I guess my point was not more widely societal, and not considering the fanatics. My point was that if someone tries to give Renarin guff about being a scholar, he can point to his father, as a Warrior learning to read, and at Jasnah, as the queen who is an atheist. To me, it's more about Renarin, and people like him, gaining a confidence boost because some major people in positions of power and renown have taken the first step, meaning it becomes easier for more people to do the same. Society will push back, but Dalinar can become someone to rally behind as an example.

In that case I'm in agreement with you.  On a local level there is definitely some shielding precedent being made, especially with regards to Radiants being outside of the normal order of things.  

[summers]

They will complain and then....What? Alethkar is conquered are they going to run home and till their now enslaved buddies. Right now the goverment is the warcamps, Listener capital and Urithriyu.

Also where does Kaladin hold land now? and what would he even do with it?

Edited November 30, 2017 by summers

[Not a Voidbringer]

Although I agree that there are several significant changes to Alethi society coming, what with Renarin, Dalinar, and Jasnah defying their societal gender roles, I think that these changes will be slower coming than we expect.

Firstly, the royal family is very detached from the average Alethi at the moment since they are living in Urithiru and, oh yeah, pretty much the entirety of Alethkar is under the control of the singers.  Considering that most spanreeds, the main form of disseminating information, are either not available to the general populace or unable to be used due to the influence of the Fused, the culture shift will be less far-reaching, at least for a while.  Combine this with fanaticism and how most high-ranking people from all over Roshar generally distrust Dalinar for the rumors of his madness and his former bloodlust and his excommunication, dislike Jasnah because of her atheism and her feminist stances, and are unfamiliar with Renarin (or think he is "weird"), and I don't see this as a large societal change yet unless they can find a way to use the chaos of the Last Desolation to draw attention away from the changes they are making.

[GoddessIMHO]

I think the very fact that most of Alethi "society" is now a slave class will have a very significant effect on how much change there is. Perhaps there will be underground Vorin religious groups that are fanatical and certainly light eyes will try to stay "in charge" within the slave class itself, however, they will also have to work with dark eyes side by side eventually. Alethi Parshmen and women seem to live within the Vorin confines and self identify as Alethi. I don't know how that will play into all of this.

The Vorin hierarchy is pretty much in just Jah Keved now and that is controlled by Mr T. They pretty much abhor Dalinar and Jasnah. There is going to be an explosion of some sort around all this even though it seems the regular folks took well to Dalinar's visit.

In Urithiru I think the royals and the Radiants may spark a lot of change.

Is Jasnah the first Queen ever? Will Adolin's PDA with Shallan affect how others act with loved ones? Will Shallan wearing pants and just a glove instead of a Hava change styles? As previously mentioned we now have women with shard blades and a prominent man learning to read and write. Dalinar's marriage is another tradition breaker. The Kholen's in general treat dark eyes as equals. There are no tame Parshmen and now a lot of people are having to do types of work they never did before and someone has to pay them. 

In the battle with the night essence Shallan mentions being ashamed because her hand was out and all the soldiers saw it. No one said anything. If someone is keeping a monster from destroying you a dress code seems of little importance. 

I'm all over the place here because it seems there are forces pushing both ways in Roshar.

 

[Runyan Firetree]

I expect that a collapse or schism of the Vorin church is inevitable.  Once it becomes common knowledge that Ishar is Tezim, I expect that many of the hard-liners / anti-Dalinar ardents may choose to follow Ishar.  The moderate ardents will probably choose to either go to Urithiru or stick with their chosen Devotary.  Most of the devotaries have a chance to survive and thrive through any schism and may eventually evolve into their own splinter or reformation religions.

[ScavellTane]

Lets face it Odium is going to use the church against the Radiants. They need a god to worship.