RappaR Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 Well, I have so simple and obvious theory, that knowing Brandon, it has to be wrong. Odium says: We killed Honor. It hints, that he had help. Odium is afraid of Sazed, who has power of 2 shards and Stormfather says, that he is worried about exposing himself to Cultivation. So it seems, that Odium is unable to fight 1v2 shards, so he couldn't kill Honor, while Cultivation was on Roshar. And he freaks out, when he thinks he sees Honor, so it indicate he lost acces to his help. It would make plausible, that Ruin participated in splintering of Honor, since it both suits to his MO and not being able to help Odium again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, RappaR said: Odium says: We killed Honor. I assume you are referring to this line? Quote “No!” Odium screamed. He stepped forward. “No, we killed you. WE KILLED YOU!” This is a topic of some contention, with multiple parties ascribing meaning to what Odium is saying here. The discussion on that is happening over here: For what it's worth, I don't think any other Shards were involved in Honor's death. Honor distinctly tells us it was Odium, so I don't see any reason to doubt that and think another shard was involved in his death. Quote “I am … I was … God. The one you call the Almighty, the creator of mankind.” The figure closed his eyes. “And now I am dead. Odium has killed me. I am sorry.” WoK Chapter 75 In the Top Room Welcome to the forums Edited November 25, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailvara Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 There is a line in Venli's third interlude, where one of the fused says that they killed Honor. So it looks pretty clear that the "we" is Odium and the ancient parsh spirits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RappaR Posted November 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 For what it's worth, I don't think any other Shards were involved in Honor's death. Honor distinctly tells us it was Odium, so I don't see any reason to doubt that and think another shard was involved in his death. It seems to me it was prerecorded and while Honor was able to predict his own death, he couldn't know there were addiditional party assisting Honor. I think there are enough proofs, that Odium couldn't take directly both Cultivation and Honor. Moreover he is terrified of ascending Dalinar, while he was pretty confident, he can easily kill Cultivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyWordsmith Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 So, there's a WoB that's got me thinking. I posted it in the we killed you thread, but I may as well cross post here. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1555 FirstSelector Was Cultivation close enough to when Odium got Honor, to know how to fight back? Brandon Sanderson Heheheheh. I would say yes. FirstSelector And Cultivation, is she-- Brandon Sanderson She is still there. FirstSelector Alive and kicking. Okay, you've said that before-- Brandon Sanderson She is alive and kicking. FirstSelector And she can probably know how to not turn her back to the-- Brandon Sanderson Well, I mean... She has learned from the experiences of others. The way Brandon responded, and the we. I have had this nagging feeling for a while, but this seems to solidify it. Did Cultivation help Rayse kill Tanavast? Because we know Tanavast was growing increasingly erratic near the end. We know that Rayse was already bound for a while before Tanavast was killed. We know Cultivation is willing to "prune" things not conducive to growth. I think it might be possible that because she thought Tanavast was doing more harm than good, she helped Rayse kill him. That would make him saying "We killed you" make a lot more sense if referring to Honor. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, Ailvara said: There is a line in Venli's third interlude, where one of the fused says that they killed Honor. So it looks pretty clear that the "we" is Odium and the ancient parsh spirits. A search using the word "Honor" brings no hits in the Venli chapters except when Ulim mentions men 'stinking of Honor.' I can't find this quote, can you provide it? 14 minutes ago, RappaR said: It seems to me it was prerecorded and while Honor was able to predict his own death, he couldn't know there were addiditional party assisting Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailvara Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said: A search using the word "Honor" brings no hits in the Venli chapters except when Ulim mentions men 'stinking of Honor.' I can't find this quote, can you provide it? There you go: Quote No. We will need to watch the humans constantly. At any moment, any of them could manifest powers from the enemy. We killed him, and yet he fights on through his Surgebinders. It's at 67% of the book, said by a fused called Rine. Edited November 25, 2017 by Ailvara 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ailvara said: There you go: Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bliev she/her Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 I know this is completely devoid of actual evidence, but i started to think about this possibility when the archive mentioned that Honor was changing: Quote 67 "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing." What if Honor changed enough to “switch sides” so to speak? Not to support Odium, but the Parsh? Like the sky breakers? And then Odium used his unmade and the Fused to take him down when he didn’t expect it? i don’t know if his intent would let him betray an oath, though, as the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he cannot (and neither can Odium, for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) This is just a personal interpretation, and likely a result of my personal bias, but I'm viewing the fused's statement as more a generalized "our side" then a specific "we including me." The fused get their powers from Odium, so including them in his own 'we' is almost self-referential. I'm also a little dubious on splinters as small as spren being able to even hurt a shard, let alone help kill it. Nightblood can't even kill a shard. Fused have shown no signs of manifesting Blades of their own, let alone on the scale of Nightblood. I'm chalking that up to boasting of your commander and side's victories. Quote Argent Can Nightblood damage or kill a Shard? Is he that powerful? Brandon Sanderson Nightblood is not powerful enough for-- *makes weird/hesitant ehhh sound* Argent Can it damage? Brandon Sanderson Damage? Yes. How damaging? Is a subject to discussion. Nightblood contains a lot of Investiture. Mistborn spoilers: Spoiler Rashek arguably took up way more power at the well and wasn't able to directly attack Ruin, albeit most likely as a result of intent, but Vin, when holding all of the power, was. Odium ran because of the contest of Champions, not because he was afraid of a direct threat to his person at this point IMO. Edited November 25, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teknopathetic he/him Posted November 26, 2017 Report Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) i suspect Odium did the majority of his damage to Honour by making a Honour go against its intention. Honour lying to his radiants was not honorable, and the poor shard seems to get crazier and crazier about that fact. Plus, honour once protected the Parshendi, but then switched to the humans once the Parsh started to slaugter the refugees. He must have had mixed ideas about what was right, perhaps even having conflicting loyalties to the two groups at different times. Honor had bound himself to humanitt, but humanity kept dissapointing him. Odium raised the humans, let them loose on Roshar, and watched Honour struggle with his morall dilemmas. Then honour settles on the oaths to bind humanity to him, forgetting that humans break oaths. Each broken oath weakened him. and then somehow Odium struck the final blow. Odiums immigration crises was the perfect blow to Honour’s system. Likely Cultivation and Ambition are a different sort of ideal and needed to be murdered via a different method. Edited November 26, 2017 by teknopathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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