Toaster Retribution Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 As Amarams only fan, I feel the need for a thread for him. His story has reached his destination now (with Sadeas gone in WoR, and Amaram gone in OB we are bumping off antagonists real quick. Moash, Mraize and Nale should be watching their backs). Anyway, were you satisfied with how his story with Kaladin ended? Do everyone still hate him? Personally, I have mixed feelings. I still like him. I find him a tragic character, who tried to do what he found honorable, which wound up breaking him completely, and (literally) turned him into a monster. It is a good story. I can't help but feel that his final moments would have had more impact if we saw his reaction to the Heralds betrayal first-hand. I feel like that was a defining moment for his character. In the end, I would have wished that he got to stay around a bit longer (I am not really into the possession part by Odium either), but in the end, it was pretty good, despite issues. Anyone else having an opinion? Also, I thought about something fun. Rock became a bridgeman after his cousins failed attempt to duel Sadeas for his shards, but Sadeas killed him. It is ironic that Rock was the one to kill Amaram, and gain his Shards, since he was the new Sadeas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawnhargreaves Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 These books are full of symmetry and mirror image character arcs. Dalinar put journey before destination, and overcame the Thrill. Amaram put destination before journey, and was overcome by the Thrill. It's no accident that Rock succeeded at killing the replacement version of the very same Shardbearer that his cousins previously failed to duel. Remember why his cousins were attempting that? Rock is now the Horneater king! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoddessBeyond Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 I went into this book with blind hatred for Amaram. "You did something incredibly unfair to Kaladin, therefore everything about you is bad!" Still, I expected to gain some understanding of Amaram's / Sons of Honor's motivation. I know I need to do a reread (I finished OB six hours ago), but why exactly did Amaram think joining Odium and opening himself to an Unmade would solve anything? Did that really align with the big picture goals of the SoH? I thought the final showdown itself was epic. Loved the poetic justice of Kaladin getting to fight Amaram - and of Rock taking up arms both to protect his Captain and kill the new Sadeas. Do I still hate Meridas Amaram: yes. Do I wish we had seen more of him before he died: absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harbour Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 Yep, wanted more from him. That moment when you were on full Darth Vader trope and then got c-kblocked. I kinda liked him, really. There is something in his stoic murderer position id like to explore more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfbeckett Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 He was an interesting character but I'm glad he's gone. He was a "destination before journey" type, in our world we'd say he believed that the ends justified the means, a philosophical position that I strongly disagree with. He also needs to be gone from a narrative perspective so that Kaladin can move on. In this book we got Kaladin realizing his beef with Roshone was too petty to be worth pursuing, and Amaram being dealt with once and for all. I expect some proper growth from Kaladin in the next book now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: As Amarams only fan, I feel the need for a thread for him. His story has reached his destination now (with Sadeas gone in WoR, and Amaram gone in OB we are bumping off antagonists real quick. Moash, Mraize and Nale should be watching their backs). Anyway, were you satisfied with how his story with Kaladin ended? Do everyone still hate him? Personally, I have mixed feelings. I still like him. I find him a tragic character, who tried to do what he found honorable, which wound up breaking him completely, and (literally) turned him into a monster. It is a good story. I can't help but feel that his final moments would have had more impact if we saw his reaction to the Heralds betrayal first-hand. I feel like that was a defining moment for his character. In the end, I would have wished that he got to stay around a bit longer (I am not really into the possession part by Odium either), but in the end, it was pretty good, despite issues. Anyone else having an opinion? Also, I thought about something fun. Rock became a bridgeman after his cousins failed attempt to duel Sadeas for his shards, but Sadeas killed him. It is ironic that Rock was the one to kill Amaram, and gain his Shards, since he was the new Sadeas. I disagree with the part I have bolded. Amaram wanted others to think he was honorable. There are many occasions where we see Amaram have a chance to do the honorable thing, and then decide to not do that thing. Perhaps I am prejudiced against him--but what is even one honorable thing that we see or hear about him doing? I truly cannot think of a single one, so any examples would actually be appreciated; I dislike maligning people for faults that they do not have. He's an interesting character, and a flawed one. Much like Mr T, Amaram is willing to kill, maim, and destroy others in order to fulfill some nebulous thoughts of benefiting the greater good. I mean, up until the end when Amaram's so mad at his friends for not understanding how awful things have been for him that he willingly joins the enemy. To me, he lived as he died--a weak-minded fool blinded by hate and faith, letting others (for good and for ill) use him to serve their own ends. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 40 minutes ago, TheGoddessBeyond said: but why exactly did Amaram think joining Odium and opening himself to an Unmade would solve anything? Did that really align with the big picture goals of the SoH? He didn’t. Due to his anger and frustration, and his general outlook, he was susceptible to being overcome by Nargoul (the thrill) along with the rest of the Sadeas army. He was being controlled for all of that. His mind was his own, but his will was not, exactly the same situation as we saw with Eshonai in stormform. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoddessBeyond Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, Calderis said: He didn’t. Due to his anger and frustration, and his general outlook, he was susceptible to being overcome by Nargoul (the thrill) along with the rest of the Sadeas army. He was being controlled for all of that. His mind was his own, but his will was not, exactly the same situation as we saw with Eshonai in stormform. That makes a lot of sense. Still, right before bonding with Yelig-nar (or being possessed by Yelig-nar?) Amaram says Odium has been speaking with him for a long time. Odium promised him power. It sounds like they have been working together for a while. He can't have been under the direct influence of the thrill that whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 Amaram was contacted when he was crossing the Shattered Plains perhaps? Ialai said he was caught out when coming to Urithiru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted November 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 hour ago, kaellok said: I disagree with the part I have bolded. Amaram wanted others to think he was honorable. There are many occasions where we see Amaram have a chance to do the honorable thing, and then decide to not do that thing. Perhaps I am prejudiced against him--but what is even one honorable thing that we see or hear about him doing? I truly cannot think of a single one, so any examples would actually be appreciated; I dislike maligning people for faults that they do not have. I think he saw his goal of uniting Alethkar (maybe entire Roshar) beneath the church. Religious fanatics tend to believe that people will be better off following god. I think this is was Amaram really wanted, and, since he thought that it was good for all, I find him honorable. Yes, he was wrong, but ultimately, he wanted to make the world better. I agree that he wanted to be seen as honorable, but I do think that some of his honor was genuine. Also, he promised to stand trial for his crimes. Hadn't Odium showed up, I think he would have done that. 36 minutes ago, TheGoddessBeyond said: Still, right before bonding with Yelig-nar (or being possessed by Yelig-nar?) Amaram says Odium has been speaking with him for a long time. Odium promised him power. It sounds like they have been working together for a while. He can't have been under the direct influence of the thrill that whole time. Odium told him the truth about the Heralds at some point, which probably broke him. I imagine that it happened some time during the timespan of Oathbringer. I would have loved to see that scene from Amarams POV. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fulminato Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 amaram still hold a secret. a man how cannot forgive him, dalinar ask if the man was kaladin, and he denied. can be restares? and why he cannot forgive amaram? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 I've got a bit of a thing for names and word meanings, so I looked at the possible meanings of Meridas Amaram's name. Now Meridas as a male name and does not exist in real life from what I can find but Merida - a female name very like it - means "one who has achieved a high place of honor" Amaram is an in-world name derived from "merem" meaning "honour". In the greek languange putting the prefix a- or an- on a word usually means the same as "without" or lacking. for example anaemia means lacking (an-) blood (haem). Therefore I would suggest that Amaram's name might well be translated fully as One who has achieved a high place of honor, without honor. I.e he got to his respectable position by doing reprehensible actions. I feel that given how well this fits with him, I am not too sad he died. Best of all he didn't bring anyone down to his level as he fought. Kaladin is finally free of him but doesn't have to feel guilty about his death. Neither does Rock for that matter though I suspect he is feeling guilty about killing someone after obviously swearing he wouldn't fight. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace21 Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 Pretty sure Amaram pointed to himself after denying it was Kaladin. He couldn't forgive himself, as we saw with Kaladin pointing out that despite his justifications, he still hurt from what he had done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necessary Eagle Posted November 23, 2017 Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 I thought "him" was Odium, as in "I'm in for a fate worse than death if he catches me betraying him". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution Posted November 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2017 I think that he meant that he couldn't forgive himself for his actions. Warbreaker spoiler: Spoiler It reminded me of Denth. Vasher offers him redemption, but he doesn't feel like he deserves it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.d41b1ca865930ccf5f63b08a839f908e.png){kind=logo}
Recommended Posts