[OB] Kaladin's love life ?

[Sandra she/her]

So, I can't stop thinking about Shalladin, I don't know what it is, but the two together just feel right. I guess it won't happen too soon, because Kaladin and Shallan are still searching themselves but I kind of get a Navani/Dalinar vibe from them and hope that they'll end up together.

[Ailvara]

4 minutes ago, Sandra said:

So, I can't stop thinking about Shalladin, I don't know what it is, but the two together just feel right. I guess it won't happen too soon, because Kaladin and Shallan are still searching themselves but I kind of get a Navani/Dalinar vibe from them and hope that they'll end up together.

Welcome to SS Shalladin. It's a small (but graceful) yacht, so sailing just nearly straight into the wind is what it does best. 

"Sailing before landing" 

[Dreamstorm]

27 minutes ago, Sandra said:

So, I can't stop thinking about Shalladin, I don't know what it is, but the two together just feel right. I guess it won't happen too soon, because Kaladin and Shallan are still searching themselves but I kind of get a Navani/Dalinar vibe from them and hope that they'll end up together.

Yeah, especially when you look at what people want for Kaladin (e.g. lighteyes to help him fully confront his prejudice, someone who can take care on herself, Radiant or least with good fighting skills (we've seen what soulcasting can do), someone to help lift him out of his depression - that's off the top of my head) and you're like, hmmmm, well there is one person I can think of...  On a literary level, in a good story, what us readers want for character A is what the author is making us want for character A.  And if there's character B that is fitting into the characteristics the readers are set up to want for character A (even if that doesn't seem to fit into the overt storyline at the time), I find that hard to ignore.

But Shalladin is pretty taboo around here, so I won't go too far down this path 

11 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

"Sailing before landing" 

I genuinely LOL'd at this!  The Knights Shalladin.

[Lelouch Vi Britannia]

55 minutes ago, Sandra said:

So, I can't stop thinking about Shalladin, I don't know what it is, but the two together just feel right. I guess it won't happen too soon, because Kaladin and Shallan are still searching themselves but I kind of get a Navani/Dalinar vibe from them and hope that they'll end up together.

Yeah, issue with that is Shallan chooses Adolin at the end of OB. Because she's dumb and boring.

I can't see her going back on that decision, really. I think it'd undermine her character.

[mariapapadia she/her]

I don't want to police anyone or stop them from expressing their opinion, but let's not let this escalade and transform into a Shalladin vs Shadolin thread or another "Shallan's choice" thread. That can put off people who have something else to say and are tired of the same arguments. Just my two cents..

[Awesomness]

Hi, I just wanted to add:

I don't think Kaladin´s mysterious future love interest will be some kind of damsel he wants to (over)protect and is in constant danger.

We have evidence that he likes independent and strong willed women (Shallan, Tarah, Laral, that horse keeper... even Syl, if we want to add her to the list...). In OB he likes Shallan, but he never tries to shelter her, he knows she can take care of herself.

Yes, he wanted to save Laral from Roshone, but he realizes it was childish.

[dashardie]

On 2017-11-30 at 1:35 AM, deddinty said:

I could imagine her bringing him food and things, and him totally not getting it until bridge 4 has to point it out. 

And Sigzil's moment of apoplexy when he realizes there aren't any forms to fill out for this, either! The horror!!

[Vissy]

Shalladin does seem to fit, but well, Shadolin also fits really well. Adolin is just right for Shallan - she's fractured and Adolin helps her to find herself amidst that chaos, as well as making her really happy. Parts of Shallan do like Kaladin romantically, and parts of her also like Jasnah romantically, but what it seems like from OB is that the "main" part - the Shallan part - prefers Adolin, whereas the projection she created to portray herself as a regal Radiant prefers Jasnah, and where her more down-to-earth side prefers Kaladin. It will be interesting to see what Shallan is like when (if) these parts all merge together.

It'd be funny to see Kaladin turn into Adolin 2.0 with his romantic pursuits in the upcoming books, dating various people but never quite getting it right.

[king of nowhere]

4 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Ok. So this post might be very random. So you've been warned.

I hope I won't come across to harsh, I've seen a lot of people making the Syladin argument, but I really want to crush it.

Syl is a sapient being thanks to her connection with Kaladin, without him she would literally be just a mindless spren as she states so many times. This should be reason enough for them to not be together. If that is not, here is another one. It will be in unhealthy relationship because she will always be dependent on Kaladin, respecting his oaths in order for her not to die. It's not like in a marriage or a relationship when you say some oaths and if it doesn't work out you only have your conscience to bother you. This will mean that Kaladin will kill her and I don't like what that implies. If at any point Kaladin goes crazy and doesn't want to be a Windrunner he will be forced to keep his oaths or kill his lover/friend. It gives him levareage above her.

I don't see the deal here. syl is already dependent from kaladin. She already dies if he betrays his oath. By getting together romantically, none of this would get any worse. Kaladin is already forced to keep his oath or kill a sapient creature. You may say that you don't like the whole nahel bond thing, the idea that two sapeints are interconnected and that if one of them betrays oaths the other dies, and I agree, it's not an ideal situation. Once this situation is, however, I see no way adding a romantic involvment can make it any worse. In fact, I see it as making it better, because those two sapients are stuck with each other anyway, they may as well try to make the best out of it.

Quote

Also, I never thought of things this way, but I remember reading a post about Syl's and Kal's relationship where they said that the way Syl acts towards Kal sometime is resembling manipulation. And that it's true, it's not that she's doing it with bad intentions, but she has the power of making him do what she wants sometimes, because of how their bond works. And that's not fair to either. Anyway, sorry you where the one to receive all my NO SYLADIN rant, but I think the moral implications of this transforming into a romantic connections are bigger than people have thought about

Again, I don't see any big deal here. In every couple the people involved try to persuade the other to do stuff, be it something as simple as taking out the trash, or as complex as changing ideas on how to raise a son. You can say that both parties involved undergo character development where they both change to fit better with each other. This is often good for both parties involved: I wish I'd find a girl who would push me to overcome my lazyness and get in a better shape.

Manipulation implies covert means and malicious intent, which is the opposite of what is happening here. Syl is not manipulating kaladin, she is talking openly and honestly with him about what she feels is important; she wants nothing but his good. Kaladin is not some clueless child that is taken advantage of, he is an adult fully capable of taking her ssuggestions and making what he wants with them. He resister her suggestions regarding elokhar, and he only lost powers because of his oaths, not because he refused to listen to her. And he kept resisting her suggestions about relationships.

In fact, I'd argue that all of the bad things you say would happen if they entered into a relationship had already happened. The only thing they miss is physical intimacy, aside from that they are practically already in a relationship. And that goes for every other radiant we saw, though for syl and kaladin it's particularly strong.

Notice that I don't want to take sides in a ship war. I am merely stating that there would be nothing unhealty in syladin - well, nothing unhealtier than already is - and I see it as a legitimate possibility.

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, Sandra said:

So, I can't stop thinking about Shalladin

 

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Welcome to SS Shalladin. It's a small (but graceful) yacht, so sailing just nearly straight into the wind is what it does best. 

"Sailing before landing" 

All aboard! We may be a small craft but there's still room for more passengers.

 

47 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Shalladin does seem to fit, but well, Shadolin also fits really well. Adolin is just right for Shallan

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Yeah, especially when you look at what people want for Kaladin (e.g. lighteyes to help him fully confront his prejudice, someone who can take care on herself, Radiant or least with good fighting skills (we've seen what soulcasting can do), someone to help lift him out of his depression - that's off the top of my head) and you're like, hmmmm, well there is one person I can think of...

This is the key, isn't it? Adolin helps Shallan, but Shallan helps Kaladin. And Kaladin helps everyone.

 

49 minutes ago, Vissy said:

It'd be funny to see Kaladin turn into Adolin 2.0 with his romantic pursuits in the upcoming books, dating various people but never quite getting it right

Is it wrong to start imagining Adolin as Kaladin's wingman? Trying to get him laid, telling him to pick himself back up after the most recent rejection. Maybe even a double-date that ends poorly when Adolin and Kaladin's date both notice the obvious chemistry between Shallan and Kaladin and.....I'm gone again. Sorry about that.

 

3 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

Notice that I don't want to take sides in a ship war.

Maybe you don't have to take sides, but this thread is practically designed to fight the battles of the great ship war. There's room aboard the Good Ship Shalladin, if you want to come aboard!

[Awesomness]

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

and parts of her also like Jasnah romantically

This is off topic but do you have a quote about this? I can't have missed this! 

18 minutes ago, Rainier said:

All aboard! We may be a small craft but there's still room for more passengers.

Right now I feel like Kate Winslet trying to jump into the see from the soon to sink Titanic. Maybe I just need a Leo Di Caprio to pull me back on board and enjoy its last days until the iceberg shows up...

[Vissy]

As in the internal monologues Shallan (and especially Radiant) has about how beautiful, perfect and sexy Jasnah is.

[mariapapadia she/her]

@king of nowhere I have to run so I don't think I will make the best argument, so I quoted these posts from the Overhyped character thread( I don't know how to reference the direct thread in here) that I refered to in the previous comment that explain better what I wanted to say by Syl manipulating Kaladin

On ‎2017‎-‎09‎-‎05 at 6:58 PM, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I'm big enough to admit that the stick is over hyped, but that does change my love for stick and that scene!

 

I'm probably about to open up a giant can if works here. I think Syl is over hyped. I do like and enjoy Syl, but there are things about her character that I find troubling. More than any other spren, she's treated her bind with Kaladin like it is his responsibility to keep her alive. Maybe this is something that other spren will develop, but it plays out sometimes to me as an abusive relationship where Syl is using the threat if her death as a club to force Kaladin's actions. It makes me especially uncomfortable because at times it almost seems to be an exploitation of Kaladin''s depression. This all is motivated by the fact that she is not intentionally and maliciously manipulating him in this way, but there's a certain innate possessiveness and controlling aspect to her character that makes their relationship seem to have a very unhealthy dynamic. Even on her return to him, she says that she has claimed him and he is hers. She wasn't killed, because their bond hadn't progressed far enough if I understand correctly, so up until then she could even have theoretically found someone else to bond. 

 

I don't dislike Syl, and I don't think she has a bad character, but I do think she's over hyped as an innocent and honorable character when there is a darker side of her actions and behaviors.

 

On ‎2017‎-‎09‎-‎09 at 6:41 PM, Ookla the Obtuse said:

I think Syl's pass for her actions expires before they come into play. She had. Her 'lost innocence' moment when Kaladin and Bridge Four decided to save Dalinar. Her personality certainly affects innocence and playfulness, but that's not an excuse for other manipulative actions. She's not a child, she remembers enough to be sentient, she understands death, and she remembers what happened to previous spren. More importantly, she remembers choosing to defy the stormfather, and does so again at the end of WoR. For me, having a playful attitude and maintaining childlike wonder doesn't excuse you from manipulation. 

 

Like I said, I really like Syl, but she's got a darker side that gets smokescreened by her levity and flippant nature.

 

On ‎2017‎-‎09‎-‎10 at 2:09 PM, Ookla the Obtuse said:

The first thing I notice about your argument is that you don't even attempt to refute that those actions I specified are indeed morally questionable, instead moving to identify mitigating circumstances. This typifies the exact reason I think Syl is over hyped: her actions deserve a pass because of 'x.' Still, I'm going to try to address your argument.

 

In some ways, Kaladin''s growth is stymied by Syl because she's manipulating him to shape him into who she wants him to be. It is still character growth when he comes to view assassinating Elokhar as surgery to remove a festering wound, even if it's not what might be considered positive character growth. As a matter of fact, Kaladin''s greatest 'positive' character growth comes when he is without Syl during the Weeping towards the end of WoR.

 

"If your sentience which you have just gained back..."

Gained back implies loss. Loss implies a lack of choice. The most important nuance to my argument is that Syl chose to lose her sentience and make herself vulnerable despite having the knowledge of what exactly that would entail. If someone chose to do something risky, like bungee jumping, and got severely injured, then went into kidney failure from the antibiotics, I would still consider it morally reprehensible for them to manipulate someone into giving them a kidney, even though their life is at stake. Syl does not lose personal responsibility for her actions and cognizant choices.

 

"It's very understandable to me."

There are a great number of morally questionable actions that I can understand the motivations and impetus behind them. That doesn't change the morality of it. The two aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

 

Let me give a clear example. Right before Kaladin jumps into the four shardbearer duel, he worries that things will turn out like they did with Amaram. Syl, only concerned with doing the 'honorable' thing, promises that it will be different. Kaladin ends up in prison. Syl has manipulated his trust in her, broken her own code (albeit without intent), and faces no personal consequences from it. 

I do think there is a difference when romantic implications come to a relationship and those often can ruin a great friendship, so I don't want to see that. If a romantic thing doesn't work between them is not like they can go do and meet whoever they want without hurting eachothers feelings (that s to say even if Syl is capable of romantic feelings at all) , they will literally be stuck with eachother until one of them dies. That is too much drama for me to handle. But of course it's just my opinion on the matter.

 

28 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Maybe you don't have to take sides, but this thread is practically designed to fight the battles of the great ship war. There's room aboard the Good Ship Shalladin, if you want to come aboard!

I am not a moderator, but I would respectfully ask not to turn this into a shipping war. This is a thread to discus Kaladin's possible romantic interests, not to turn it again into the endless love triangle drama.  Everyone is a fan here, but I would also assume a sensible human being, so there is no need to go into the shipping wars. The reason I keep saying this is because we know how that subject is extremely volatile and polarizing and we've seen how those threads end up.

Edited December 1, 2017 by mariapapadia

[A Dopey Spren he/him]

On 11/19/2017 at 6:18 PM, Aleksiel said:

Kaladin had a short lived romance with Tarah, who is somewhere in Alethkar. Why not ignite the old fire in future books? 

Definitely possible. Tarah has been mentioned multiple times, almost hinting at the idea that she'll appear in future books.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

we've seen how those threads end up.

Offtopic, but someone took offense at something, that I said, which I already had apologized for, had an emotional outburst and the thread was closed in an, in my opinion, overreaction. Besides that it was actually civil, aside from a small dabble in feminism. Just wanted to make that clear. Also, discussions can get heated. I don't know what is the problem with that?

I agree though, that this thread shouldn't be hijacked.

Edited December 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

@mariapapadia

"Can if works"

*Shudders*

[MeloDet]

While I agree that Kal needs a "strong" love interest I have to say that having her be a better fighter than him (particularly without buildup) as some have suggested has a lot of potential to come across as rather fanficy. I get the appeal and all, but that's the sort of thing that could easily be done poorly.

As for the topic in general, I actually think the 4th Windrunner oath is going to be something about saving oneself/living ones live rather than admitting that they can't save everyone as some have hypothesized. It would fit with the windrunner recording about wanting to save people and would fit with Tarah's comment about being there for the living. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Windrunner's had Kaladin's same saviour complex.

Anyway, with that in mind I figure he kind of has to get a love interest at some point. It wouldn't make much sense in his general story arc of trying to find happiness etc., if he just committed himself to a lonely life of sainthood/martyrdom. That sort of behaviour is exactly what Syl has trying to cure him of the whole time.

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, MeloDet said:

While I agree that Kal needs a "strong" love interest I have to say that having her be a better fighter than him (particularly without buildup) as some have suggested has a lot of potential to come across as rather fanficy. I get the appeal and all, but that's the sort of thing that could easily be done poorly.

Wha??  You find the idea of Kal looking across the training grounds to see the most gorgeous female... Skybreaker (let's have her be a Skybreaker, they can fly together and that'll be sexy) standing there, his heart beating in a way it never had before, feeling such a Connection (capitalized to drive it home that this is real), his whole Identity (again, note the capitalization) changing in that very moment as this he realized this, this was the woman for him... to be fanficy?!? 

But is that really that different from when.... [struggling to hold self back].

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

aside from a small dabble in feminism

Small dabble in feminism??  I am offend!  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Small dabble in feminism??  I am offend!  

Okay, okay... A short, but heated dabble in feminism.

[GoddessIMHO]

I have a Pinocchio feeling about Syl as a love interest. "You can be a REAL girl if you can be Kaladin's love interest".

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

This is a thread to discus Kaladin's possible romantic interests, not to turn it again into the endless love triangle drama. 

I completely fail to see how that isn't just waging the shipping wars on Kaladin's behalf. How, exactly, do you intend to discuss Kaladin's possible romantic interests without, you know, discussing his possible romantic interests? Shallan is one of those possible interests, and there's enough textual evidence for me to continue thinking that there will be more between them. It's not my fault Brandon decided to put his most obvious love interest in a betrothal with another character, and it's not my fault the last topic got closed. To be fair, we've got about 25 pages to go before we reach the length of the last one. 

I stand by previous posts: the best love interest for Kaladin is Shallan, there is significant textual evidence to support this pairing and undermine her actual marriage, and there's no way to have a topic about Kaladin's love life without it being directly involved in the love-triangle. I don't intend to fight anyone over it, and perhaps my phrasing as the great ship war was provocative (I don't think so, but maybe this while forum is as prudish as the author it's dedicated to), but talking about the love triangle simply has to be on topic.

13 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Okay, okay... A short, but heated dabble in feminism.

A short, heated, on-topic and completely necessary dabble in feminism, that I didn't really participate in. I appreciated the discussion, though. Once the thread was closed, it spread over every other thread even slightly adjacent, and I'm happy it did because there was a lot of good stuff (rehashed, of course) echoing around that's made its way into other topics. There's a lot of Shallan's characterization that's really, really good. There are ideas that got bounced back and forth, hashed and rehashed, supported and contradicted. That's just good theory talk, and that's what we're all (I am) here for.

So I also want to push back against the 'topic drift' concerns. A certain amount of drift is to be expected 5 pages in, and I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing.

[MeloDet]

22 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Wha??  You find the idea of Kal looking across the training grounds to see the most gorgeous female... Skybreaker (let's have her be a Skybreaker, they can fly together and that'll be sexy) standing there, his heart beating in a way it never had before, feeling such a Connection (capitalized to drive it home that this is real), his whole Identity (again, note the capitalization) changing in that very moment as this he realized this, this was the woman for him... to be fanficy?!? 

But is that really that different from when.... [struggling to hold self back].

Not at all actually, that sounds great! What I find to be potentially fanficy is her explicitly being the better fighter of the two. Not that I actually have any issue with her being the better fighter either, it's just that there really isn't a good way to make that explicit without it coming across fanficy. Does Kaladin see her fighting and think to himself "She's even better than me!"? Or do they spar or something with her winning handily? Cause those are both pretty much hallmark fanfic moments, particularly in fanfics with author self-inserts (I won't use the dreaded M-word, but I expect most people have seen this sort of thing.)

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

42 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Wha??  You find the idea of Kal looking across the training grounds to see the most gorgeous female... Skybreaker (let's have her be a Skybreaker, they can fly together and that'll be sexy) standing there, his heart beating in a way it never had before, feeling such a Connection (capitalized to drive it home that this is real), his whole Identity (again, note the capitalization) changing in that very moment as this he realized this, this was the woman for him... to be fanficy?!? 

But is that really that different from when.... [struggling to hold self back].

I like it. Not sure about the order, but it could lead to some interesting scenes and discussions.

 

14 minutes ago, MeloDet said:

Not at all actually, that sounds great! What I find to be potentially fanficy is her explicitly being the better fighter of the two. Not that I actually have any issue with her being the better fighter either, it's just that there really isn't a good way to make that explicit without it coming across fanficy. Does Kaladin see her fighting and think to himself "She's even better than me!"? Or do they spar or something with her winning handily? Cause those are both pretty much hallmark fanfic moments, particularly in fanfics with author self-inserts (I won't use the dreaded M-word, but I expect most people have seen this sort of thing.)

Well, what if she's better than him in completely different way of fighting? Like, perhaps, archery while being less skilled in melee combat? I just want to see a Shardbow and how it works. Oh, and as we're getting our wishes out, can she be from Bavland, as well? From what I understand it like Roshar's version of Scotland, which sounds like something I'd want to see..

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by DimChatz

[Dreamstorm]

30 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I completely fail to see how that isn't just waging the shipping wars on Kaladin's behalf. How, exactly, do you intend to discuss Kaladin's possible romantic interests without, you know, discussing his possible romantic interests? Shallan is one of those possible interests, and there's enough textual evidence for me to continue thinking that there will be more between them. It's not my fault Brandon decided to put his most obvious love interest in a betrothal with another character, and it's not my fault the last topic got closed. To be fair, we've got about 25 pages to go before we reach the length of the last one. 

I get both sides here.  I find the romances/Shalladin to be some of my favorite things to discuss.  But, it does get heated, and it's never fun to be part of that, especially when the discussions stop being rational and lead to attacks and emotional tirades.  Some people are also just over talking about it, especially as all the build-up post-WoR lead to a pretty meh love triangle plotline in OB (seems to be the one thing people can agree on).  As you know, I'm a post-OB Shalladin convert myself so I really wish we could go on and on about it, but I'm trying to restrain myself 

31 minutes ago, MeloDet said:

Or do they spar or something with her winning handily?

Well, this IS fanfic, so I imagine some heated sky sparring followed by some Bridge Four captain's quarters sparring would be warranted...  (Was I the only one when Kaladin gave up his quarters to Rock and fam thinking, you do not give up your dormroom single??  Bad move, Kal, bad move.)

17 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Oh, and as we're getting our wishes out, can she be from Bavland, as well? From what I understand it like Roshar's version of Scotland, which sounds like something I'd want to see..

Oh, those Bavland girls, so naughty 

[Starla]

So for the sake of completeness of potential love interests who have already popped up in the books, we might consider our friendly ardent from Hornhollow. Consider this scene, slightly edited for length and clarity:

Quote

“May I continue, Brightlord?” the ardent asked him. She was young, pretty, and nervous. […]

“Yes, please,” Kaladin said. 

[…] “um" […] “um" […] “Um" […] “Anyway" […]

Kaladin took a crude wooden cudgel off the table next to the ardent. The ardent glanced at him, then quickly looked back to her paper, blushing. […]

“The red lights,” Kaladin said. “Describe them again.” 

The ardent started; she’d been looking at him. “Um" […]

“You did well. Thank you for the report.” 

She sighed, grinning stupidly. 

“Oh!” Syl said, still on the ardent’s shoulder. “She thinks you’re pretty!” […]

“She’s an ardent,” Kaladin said. “She’d have to marry another ardent.” 

“I don’t think she was thinking about marriage, Kaladin…” […] “Maybe we could have that ardent draw you a picture. She seems like she’d be really eager.”

“Syl…”

She is probably bald, and not a kick-butt fighter chick, but at the very least she might be the founding member of the Windrunner Fan Club.