[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

7 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Hmm. I'm pretty sure I read this a few months ago (about there being a year gap in-world before SA4 starts). Can't find the quote again though. It's a bit tricky to search for, unfortunately. Hopefully it's not my mind playing tricks on me...

You are exactly right: 

Note this was after he'd finished writing OB so this seems a reasonable assumption to be working on.

[Mondaysjelly]

Wow, interesting. Not wishing to detract this thread any further, but thanks for sourcing that @PhineasGage

[Harbour he/him]

Just random thought that came to my mind.

Its pretty amazing how Kaladin is on the same wave with Shallan that he simply see Shallan as the whole all the time without even trying, and Shallan subconsciously doesnt even try to fool him, showing him just a Radiant, or just a Veil. Even in Kholinar palace when she was Veil, he calls her Shallan. It looks like its impossible for him to separate three personalities. He just see all her personalities as the parts of real Shallan. Veil is witty part of her, Shallan is sensitive, Radiant is strong. Even on that ship he talks with real Shallan, wondering how she is able to get away from the pain. Its the real Shallan who has the pain, and real Shallan speaks with him. I guess he simply is very perceptive man. Its hard to crem dung him with some illusions. And Shallan subconsciously understand that. I can hardly remember when she was so afraid to show him other personalities, while she was afraid to do this before Adolin.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Harbour

[Arch he/him]

To me by far the most annoying thing about this situation is that Shallan and Kaladin never really talked to eachother... not a single time. After waiting the entire book, Shallan has the chance on the battlements, but instead she waves then RUNS AWAY. Next thing I know she tells Adolin that all her drooling over Kaladin was just her ''being an artist'' and pushes the rest on to veil, then they're married! If this is the end then I really dont understand what the point of all this was. Is Sanderson trying to make parallels to the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar relationship by making Shallan afraid of Kaladin and going with the safe option instead? Either way all of this really isnt worth it, imo. I would have prefered if kaladin and shallan had just stayed friends from the start.   

On a side note I'm impressed how maturely Adolin handled this, even if I do think he and Shallans relationship is pretty shallow.

[RShara she/her]

Regarding the post about how Shallan has been making illusions off and on for years, and how long Pattern has been with her, remember that Shallan killed her mother with her Shardblade when she was very young, so Pattern's been with her for possibly around a decade.

[kari-no-sugata]

44 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

You are exactly right: 

Note this was after he'd finished writing OB so this seems a reasonable assumption to be working on.

Many thanks for finding that.

As far as I understand it, Brandon does an initial outline for the "next" book once he's finished a draft of the current SA book. So he's probably already written an initial outline for SA4 and tweaked SA3 to include some foreshadowing.

 

btw, sorry, but I don't have time to respond to your other posts right now. I would like to bring up one thing though. I've seen some posters suggesting that Wit is recommending against Shallan using personas but I don't see that:

Quote

“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.”

Shallan mentioned her personas on her first meeting with him in OB ("Aim for the sun") and he said nothing against using them. Here he talks about controlling them. He doesn't talk about assimilating them or not using them. For this bit at the end, this is why I've been arguing that it's so necessary that Shallan actually likes herself - I'm trying to keep an open mind about how dangerous it is for her to use her personas in general but it's definitely dangerous if she likes being her personas more than being herself, which would likely happen if she doesn't like herself or doesn't accept herself. Which is why it's important for her to forgive herself and be happy about being herself.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Wit isn't inherently against Shallan using her personas. It makes me curious to see what Jasnah will do with the Heralds. She did talk about killing them at one point but I'm guessing that won't happen. But anyway, it would be interesting to see what Ash would say about all this. My guess would be that she knows about it (ie seen it in other Lightweavers before) but considers it to be risky, particularly without help.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

For this bit at the end, this is why I've been arguing that it's so necessary that Shallan actually likes herself - I'm trying to keep an open mind about how dangerous it is for her to use her personas in general but it's definitely dangerous if she likes being her personas more than being herself, which would likely happen if she doesn't like herself or doesn't accept herself. Which is why it's important for her to forgive herself and be happy about being herself.

But the Shallan she has chosen to be herself isn't truly herself. It is another version of her that is more appealing. It isn't the one, who birthed Veil and Radiant. Veil and Radiant were birthed by the complete, but traumatized, Shallan at the end of WoR. She finally needs to forgive herself about killing her mother. If she does that, she can finally be happy about herself. Her true self.

Like Hoid said, face the pain, but never think you deserve it.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Elena she/her]

Jumping straight into the thread without reading the discussion (will do later, though!) because over the last few days I've been rereading the book and the more I think about it the more I'm disappointed with how this particular plot went. Which is odd, because I on paper this plot does exactly what I was hoping for - I was relatively looking forward to the love triangle, as I enjoy any kind of Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin interaction in whatever shape or form; my guess was an arc that would be 'Shallan flirts with the idea of Kaladin, then eventually ends up with Adolin', and my hope was that none of the characters would be undermined by it.

All of this happened, but it was still the most disappointing part of the whole book. It felt like a relatively subtle buildup (all the way to part 3) fell apart into an arc that was somewhat superficial - a way to strike off 'love triangle: check, done'; there was a lot of Shallan's personas having different tastes in men and very little actual character development. It also felt rushed; there was a lot of Triangle stuff in Part 4 and 5, to the point where it pretty much took over the individual characters arc. And for all of this relentless buildup, it completely fell apart in half a page that erased the whole thing as if it'd never happened. It made me feel frustrated not because I disliked the result, but because the result was brought about in such a way that seriously makes me wonder why it was even necessary at all, since pages and pages of supposed character development in a book that had precious little of it due to plot reasons were basically rendered moot. More than anything, the arc did Kaladin's character a big disservice, since he's the one who got absolutely zero advancement from it - plenty of his screen time was tied up in the romantic subplot, but it accomplished absolutely nothing. A single conversation with either Adolin or Shallan that might have brought forth some character development would've made a world of difference.

At this point I'm actually curious about Sanderson's motivations, since on the one hand I am pretty sure this must have been brought up during beta reading, but I have also noticed that the entire book had a trend of supposed reveals being discarded along the way as Plot Reasons made them useless (the Helaran reveal, the Kholin boys not knowing what happened to their mother, Taln being spirited away by Amaram and so on). There were a lot of emotionals paybacks I was waiting for that never happened, so I'm wondering whether this was a writing choice made for Reasons (I heard the plot was condensed, since the book originally ended at Part 3) and the ~romance arc suffering was just the most obvious instance of it.

tl;dr: When I first read the book I told myself I should be satisfied since on paper I'd gotten what I wanted and my initial ??? reaction was just due to bingereading, that maybe made it look like there was too much romance towards the end, or perhaps pacing issues. But the more I reread the more i'm wondering what even was the point of it.

THAT SAID: The book had some wonderful, wonderful Adolin/Kaladin bonding moments. I am once again beyond sad this isn't that kind of romance arc.

[PhineasGage]

@Mondaysjelly you are very welcome

58 minutes ago, Harbour said:

I can hardly remember when she was so afraid to show him other personalities, while she was afraid to do this before Adolin.

This is a very good point - is she only worried about Adolin or does she worry about letting others see Veil/Radiant? If it is only Adolin, it supports a long standing Shadolin setup, if not, but never woories about Kaladin in the same way then it supports Shalladin. Any one got any answers for me? Pretty please?

37 minutes ago, Arch said:

On a side note I'm impressed how maturely Adolin handled this, even if I do think he and Shallans relationship is pretty shallow

I agree regarding Adolin. To be fair, neither he nor Kaladin seem to get in a gripe with each other over this at all. All the conflict is within Shallan.

 

26 minutes ago, RShara said:

Regarding the post about how Shallan has been making illusions off and on for years, and how long Pattern has been with her, remember that Shallan killed her mother with her Shardblade when she was very young, so Pattern's been with her for possibly around a decade.

Agreed. We have too little info to judge an exact date - and she may not have been surgebinding that long before her mother attacked her but she must have sworn at least the 2nd ideal. There is too much evidence that KR can't get their shardblade after only 1 ideal - but we don't know when light weavers get it. Shallan only awakened Pattern when she hit level 3 so I think it is fair to presume she probably was level 2 when she killed her mother.

@kari-no-sugata I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one  I see Wit as saying that Shallan created the personas as versions of herself. She sees them as separate. I think we may be talking slightly at cross purposes though so I'll to clarify my position.

Persona is not really the right word for how I see Shallan acting. Alternative personality is a better way to describe how she treats them. I think she is seeing them as separate and distinct individuals. This, in my view is not what Wit is advising. He says she needs to accept "you being you" - i.e. accept the alters are Shallan and she needs to merge them back with her primary personality. 

A persona is effectively a mask - it is more of an act and is done consciously. We all have personas as part of normal functioning - most people act slightly differently at work than when out with friends, but they still have the same personality. Shallan is not acting consciously in my view. She can switch consciously but does not truly control the situation. She is dissociating I believe, switching from a personality she believes cannot cope, to one she has created that she thinks can. These are not true personalities because they are fragments of the whole. A persona has all the traits but chooses to display them differently according to the situation.

6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Like Hoid said, face the pain, but never think you deserve it

This is the most important point. despite the more upbeat moment as Shallan goes to get married, she doesn't seem to have accepted this. I am sure this is going to be her final truth, or at least part of it. If she can accept it, then she'll hit level 5, but it is incredibly difficult to do. There is a reason people with DID spend years in therapy.

[PhineasGage]

10 minutes ago, Elena said:

At this point I'm actually curious about Sanderson's motivations, since on the one hand I am pretty sure this must have been brought up during beta reading, but I have also noticed that the entire book had a trend of supposed reveals being discarded along the way as Plot Reasons made them useless

I do see what you mean. I am still assuming that these will possibly be covered in later books (perhaps hoping is a better word than assuming!). I mean, isn't Renarin meant to be a main PoV in the back 5? I can see the reveal coming at him even that late but it needs to be put in now or readers would be like "Why didn't Dalinar mention this seriously major thing in his life?" I am more inclined to assume the Helaran issue is coming sooner than that because it seems like Shallan has deliberately suppressed thoughts of it. Indeed she hardly has any one-on-one time with Kaladin, and she bottles up when they get too close to why her suppressing memories is more dangerous even that how he treats himself when he fails.

[Starla]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I don't feel good about her mental state at the end of the book either, which is one of my gripes about it. We either needed to see her being somewhat stable for longer and through challenges or to have third party confirmation that she is much better.

I think this is my issue… everything was packed in so tight that we didn’t get a clear picture of her mental state. It was bad/bad/bad/worse/worse/terrible/I choose you lets get married. Then we got the brief couple of scenes in the last chapter with the lovey dialog and Shallan having a three way conversation with herself. We can dissect every line of the text but we won’t truly know what’s going on with her until the next book and…. argh, that’s tough to take. I have a similar issue with Kaladin’s arc in this book, which I started a separate thread about (I felt like he didn't have much progression). These issues are probably my own, but I like resolution and closure. I have terrible patience with loose ends. 

 

Quote

Here's something to consider: let's say that Kaladin has someone he loves deeply. How would that affect his ability to keep his oaths? It could cause all sorts of problems. On the other hand, it could be just what he needs for the 4th Ideal. The way Kaladin thinks, I don't think he would allow himself to have a relationship with someone under his command (though I bet some of the girls will try). I think your suggestion of a partner who can work and fight alongside him could succeed but is there actually someone like that out there who isn't already under his command? She would almost certainly have to be a Windrunner (Skybreakers are out). Well, with all the Oathgates opening there might be the opportunity for him to meet someone rather like himself - if something like what you suggest does happen she would probably not be someone from Vorin culture. (Do Horneater princesses fight?)

Whatever his fourth ideal is, I don't think he'd let a relationship interfere with it. It will need be universal without discernment, and I don’t believe he’ll say it until he knows he can fully embody it 100%. If it is related to letting go of people he's lost, it will also apply to his partner if he were ever to lose her. I don’t think he'll ever put his bond with Syl in jeopardy again.

As for this hypothetical radiant partner, they don’t need to be a Windrunner. He can lash people with him like he did on the trip to Kholinar. The Windrunner in Dalinar vision also lashed his partner, though she had to dismiss her shardplate (that was a funny scene with Dalinar trying to figure out how shardplate works).

 

10 minutes ago, Elena said:

More than anything, the arc did Kaladin's character a big disservice, since he's the one who got absolutely zero advancement from it - plenty of his screen time was tied up in the romantic subplot, but it accomplished absolutely nothing. A single conversation with either Adolin or Shallan that might have brought forth some character development would've made a world of difference.

I agree with this. I feel like he was tool in Shallan's plot arc to highlight her identity issues, It would have been nice for him to have a little development or growth out of it, even if it didn't work out between them in the end. I am thankful it didn't wreck his and Adolin's relationship, because they are my favorite pair in this triangle.

[Phalanx]

I haven't read the whole thread, I was only just pointed towards this website a few minutes ago, but I wanted to chime in.

To me, the way Sanderson handled the triangle at the end of this book has completely reversed my opinion of not only OB but the entire Stormlight Archive series. That may seem a bit extreme, but the growing relationship between Kal and Shallan was absolutely a huge reason why I kept reading after book 1 in the first place.

Fantasy to me is all about the characters. You can create as much magic and as many Big Bad Evils as you want, but if you don't have the characters there is no reason to read the world you've created. And the way that SA was written to my eyes made it apparent that we were going to get a slow burn relationship between two very interesting main characters. I've even defended Shallan and her potential to other people I know who read the series many times.

But the last 10% of Oathbringer just absolutely shat on that potential and represents a huge backslide in my eyes into a very uninteresting direction. Nothing against Adolin, I think he's a fine side character and very good for what he is, but he's not "protagonist relationship material."
Even worse was the way that Sanderson went about it. Just straight up assassinating Kal and Shallan's relationship in half a page, the absurd justifications for Shallan's feelings for Adolin, and the shotgun marriage. Everything just went down the drain all at once at the end.

Adolin doesn't really get Shallan, he's just nice and understands other people. Which aren't exactly unique characteristics, Kaladin himself is full of those, as are most people in real life. He doesn't have the life experience to match her, unlike Kaladin. I fear that what we're going to get going forward is more awkward justifications that try to ram the characters together regardless of how they fit. And we'll be deprived of the great potential badassery that Kal and Shallan could have gotten up to together.

It's possible that Sanderson is baiting us with this "twist," but at this point I think reversing the triangle would require butchering their characters even more (because of the marriage), or killing off Adolin. Which I *don't* want to happen. Especially not with Maya around now.

[RShara she/her]

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

@Mondaysjelly

 

Agreed. We have too little info to judge an exact date - and she may not have been surgebinding that long before her mother attacked her but she must have sworn at least the 2nd ideal. There is too much evidence that KR can't get their shardblade after only 1 ideal - but we don't know when light weavers get it. Shallan only awakened Pattern when she hit level 3 so I think it is fair to presume she probably was level 2 when she killed her mother.

I seem to remember a WoB saying that Lightweavers get their Shardblade pretty early on.  Different Orders get them at different times.  Let me see if I can find it.

[RShara she/her]

Quote

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)
#9 Share

 

Play/Kythis

How did Pattern actually become a shardblade even though he hadn't been fully pulled into the physical realm?

Brandon Sanderson

He had been pulled into the physical realm before when Shallan was younger, and she almost broke her bond.  And in so doing . . . 

Kythis

But he didn't go mad.

Brandon Sanderson

She didn't completely break the bond.  She didn't reject him completely.  But it was dangerous there for a while.  

Quote

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)
#138 Share

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said that at one point Shallan may have said all the oaths for her order (or may have been capable of saying all of the oaths by the end of the book) but has since regressed due to "memory loss/repression."

Quote

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)
#141 Share

 

Play/PausKythis

Is there a specific number of the ideals that they have to do before they can get the shardblade?  

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on the order.

 

Closest I could find so far.

 

 

[Elena she/her]

Back again, after going through the whole thread - it was very enjoyable; you guys did a great job analyzing stuff and laying things out.

However, from now on I'm just going to dearly hope this entire arc is over and done with, not only because I think that's likely but mostly because the thought of taking any more of this is just... emotionally draining. You all make good points about how some things that were handled clumsily/lack of a payback might mean there could be more to come in the future, both to Shallan's evolution of her mental personas or her relationship with Adolin, but I'm hesitant to believe that's the case. I do agree with people who said that, since the clumsiness of the romance arc must have been picked up during beta, then it was likely intentional, but I don't believe it means there's more to come on this front. OB did have trend of supposedly important emotional scenes blowing over with no payback, so I guess this is... just something that's happening now?

However, I also agree with all the people who said they were frustrated: this entire arc was ultimately pointless, as it served no purpose (all those pages of Shallan thinking about Kaladin could have been Lopen chapters!), and it mostly served to handle an issue that was created within this book (Shallan's split personas) and did so by, IMO, cheapening previous existing characer relationships (Kaladin is the 'bad boy choice' now?). Honestly, I feel a bit toyed with and definitely don't want any more of this arc. I'm all for analysing Shallan's mental state, but as soon as I even start to have thoughts about the state of her marriage I feel exhausted. No more.

Also, big shotout for @Naerin for bringing up Laral; she's one of my favourites and it's always nice to see her getting some support

[GoddessIMHO]

I think the 'sickening' actions of Shallan and Adolin were to be humorous.  New couples are often like this.  Kaladin even notes it during the meeting in the storm shelter bar. Shallan needs the sort of acceptance Adolin privides. She has stabilized herself at the main 3 personalities and is ready to go forward.

Adolin is standing on the edge of a volcano he isn't aware of.  When does he find out the father he idolized killed the mother he loved? He will likely need both Shallan and Kaladin to get through that.  He has no magic and has kept pace with the others regardless.  He has already been having doubts about his own worth. 

Having said all that, the whole triangle thing annoyed me. The relationship between Adolin and Kaladin is special, both of them are alone by their roles in command positions. They are all young. Even without all their other issues they are just learning to be adults. Kaladin and Shallan have been crushed by life,  Adolin is likely to go there too.

Finally, Adolin was relieved at the betrothal.  He didn't really know what he was doing wrong. He had lots of women due to his station. Shallan agreed to it as being beneficial to help her family. This wasn't the classic 'no, I'll only marry for love, you can't force me" trope.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Harbour said:

Just random thought that came to my mind.

Its pretty amazing how Kaladin is on the same wave with Shallan that he simply see Shallan as the whole all the time without even trying, and Shallan subconsciously doesnt even try to fool him, showing him just a Radiant, or just a Veil. Even in Kholinar palace when she was Veil, he calls her Shallan. It looks like its impossible for him to separate three personalities. He just see all her personalities as the parts of real Shallan. Veil is witty part of her, Shallan is sensitive, Radiant is strong. Even on that ship he talks with real Shallan, wondering how she is able to get away from the pain. Its the real Shallan who has the pain, and real Shallan speaks with him. I guess he simply is very perceptive man. Its hard to crem dung him with some illusions. And Shallan subconsciously understand that. I can hardly remember when she was so afraid to show him other personalities, while she was afraid to do this before Adolin.

I agree. She acts the most natural around Kaladin. For Adolin, she is dissembling herself.

[Fallen_Ash]

I shipped Kaladin and Shallan after WoR, mostly because I find Kaladin more interersting and relatable than Adolin, so I thought a romance with him would make for a better story. That said, I also like Adolin and if he proved to be the better match, that would be great too. I just want my babies to be happy. 

Unfortunately, not only did this book not sell me on Shadolin, it made me upset about her character handling as a whole. In a series about very broken people, Shallan stands out as someone not even attempting to heal herself. She says "I admitted I killed my mom, so I can't push it back anymore," but then she does. And she continues to repress all her negative emotions, even after Wit's inspiring speech.

Furthermore, the fractured personality issue is not resolved. She still sees herself as separate people, with "Shallan" as the weakest. She doesn't even know who she is, so how could Adolin? And then to wrap everything up with a fairy tale, happily-ever-after wedding...it felt weak, and I feel like her character is being shunted to the side. I really expected more. 

I know we have two more books in the "front five," but with Eshonai/Venli and Szeth being the main POV characters, I don't see Shallan getting the space she needs to actually deal with who she is and what she wants. It's much easier to play house with the pretty boy who says nice things than to change. And I think she does need to change. In the first two books I, like Kal, admired her ability to persevere despite the horrors of her past, but now it feels more than ever like she's covering up who she is to avoid dealing with it. It's easier to compartmentalize than to admit she's a killer, scholar, artist, flighty girl, child, leader, fighter, and woman all at once. 

I hope she'll get more character growth, especially as she says the next two ideals (but maybe she won't—the Skybreakers make it sound like you don't necessarily need the last two to function, and does she really need Shardplate?) I was hoping that she and Kaladin could help each other come to terms with their pasts and their responsibilities for the future, but it looks like that thread will not continue. I'm sad that maybe her marriage IS meant to be the resolution to her problems, but I thought she (and Adolin) deserved better. 

It's hard now that they're married though. If it does go south, spren don't look to kindly on oath-breaking. On the other hand, if Brandon does decide to explore her issues, maybe it will make her and Adolin stronger as a couple! 

Adolin is just so basic though. Sigh. 

[Edit: I feel bad ending it on that note. Kaladin isn't perfect either. In real life, the broodiness and doom and gloom attitude would get annoying. As a character in a fantasy epic, he is just so good. And smart and funny and very insightful and sensitive. As someone with depression, I like seeing a character who seriously struggles with it and never gives up. Adolin doesn't have that emotional draw for me. He's a good guy, but his defining character trait for this book was "fashionable," which I found quite disappointing.]

[Now that I think about it, maybe Kaladin and Shallan's POV books came too early in the series. I don't really care about Szeth anymore, Eshonai's dead, and I don't think those K, S, or A got the development they deserved in this book.]

Edited November 20, 2017 by Fallen_Ash

[wannabeninja]

 

Hey everybody longtime lurker first time poster,

So my view on the whole love-triangle issue is that I don’t think it’s actually settled.

I don’t think Shallan has fully committed herself to Adolin as what is implied by the wedding.

The reason I think this is the case is firstly because of all the hints throughout the book that have already been pointed out by many in this discussion such as shallan’s lack of accepting the multiple personalities as being a part of her or, in this particular case, the lack of any real confrontation/resolution about her feelings for Kaladin.

However, what I like to point out is that remember that in this book we learn that oaths (like that of committing yourself to someone) are only as strong and solid as the person’s meaning to them at a spiritual/deep level. That means that you can have as much fancy fare and decoration as you want, but if you don’t have true meaning behind the oath you’re making then it doesn’t really matter. It’s not meaningful. Dalinar and Navani were fully invested in their commitment to each other at the wedding in the beginning of the book and I think Shallan’s wedding is partly to juxtapose to that scene. Where Dalinar/Navani’s wedding is a true commitment although it was extremely informal with only close friends and family, Shallan’s commitment to Adolin isn’t true although it has all the extravaganza of a stereotypical wedding. There’s also a lot of red flags during shallan’s pre-wedding scene that hint that things aren’t going as they seem to be. Several others have already pointed out the odd things in the Shallan/Veil/Radiant conversation. However, something i also noticed is that the wedding ritual itself might have a red flag as because it is done with Vorin Traditions in mind, Shallan was to paint a prayer glyph for meditation and burn it in the brazier but she never actually completes it. That I think is another hint that Shallan might be jumping into this decision without, well, meditating on it.

This brings me to the prediction that in the next book will be spent as essentially the climax to this story arc where Shallan will have to confront all of these problems. Mostly because I think she is going to start “killing” pattern like all of those years ago. The reason I think of this is going to happen is mostly because it follows the ongoing duality of Shallan and Kaladin’s story throughout these books. With this wedding Shallan has just put herself into a situation where her oaths clash with each other. Just like in Kaladin’s predicament in WoR where his radiant oath to protect clashes with the oath to join in the King’s assasination plot nearly killed Syl. Shallan’s predicament will be where her radiant oath to be true to herself will clash with her oath of commitment to Adolin. That also leads me to predict that ultimately Shallan and Adolin will technically go through  a “divorce” in the next book. I think this partly because a running theme in Stormlight is the breaking down of classic traditions as the world enters a new age with new traditions so what’s more radical breaking down of classic traditions than a dissolution of a Vorin marriage when there really hasn’t been one before. Mainly however, it’s because I feel a part of Shallan’s growth is accepting the fact that she might not love Adolin as much or in the way she initially thought she did. And Although some here have pointed out that Sanderson holds the sanctity of marriage pretty personally, I believe what he’s going to point out here with is that what’s important is the Oath/vow you make in the marriage not necessarily all the ceremony and extravagance of the marriage.

Now does this mean Shalan will leave Adolin and then go to Kaladin? I’m really not sure here. I admit I am of the Shalladin ship, however the only thing I can honestly predict is that some resolution between them will be met whether they decide to just stay friends or actually start a relationship or whatever. (I think there will also be tension here on Kaladin’s side as I predict Tarah will return early on next book and the possibility of a reviving romance will be an ongoing issue with him.)

I apologize for such the long post but this aspect of the story is honestly one of the most intriguing parts of the story for me and after reading all these theories and the constant re-reading (i’m pretty sure I’ve read this book three times now in the span of week lol) It really urged me to post this. Thanks for reading.

Edited November 20, 2017 by wannabeninja

[AerionBFII he/him]

Just finished Oathbringer.

Ok im mostly just glad this is over. The whole 'love triangle' felt particularly skewed from the beginning to me, there were far more interactions with Adolin- where she basically cooed over how pretty he was and not much real depth until a little later when they started opening up a little bit but Kaladin? Nothing really,  she seemed to have a little unpredictable streak where he was concerned bouncing between cruel and just plain odd. (That part where she said her men were smart to run and B4 were stupid almost made me have apoplexy)  Shallan was pushing feelings for Kal on to Veil whenever things were getting serious with Adolin. I always enjoy character conflict but I felt like Kal and Shallan were never really explored, i felt that Kal admired her and was in awe of her ability to 'put things away' and just got confused and Shallan had basically flirted with him because she felt so much pressure and if im honest i wasn't really that fussed about the whole triangle, and Kals my favourite character but im glad Shallan and Adolin got married.

 

 

Besides tell me there wasn't more chemistry in that one Kaladin/Jasnah interaction than the whole damnation triangle. 

I. Dare. You.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

Besides tell me there wasn't more chemistry in that one Kaladin/Jasnah interaction than the whole damnation triangle. 

I. Dare. You.

I absolutely wouldn't mind! But I somehow don't see Jasnah agreeing to it (she seems to be someone, who wants to be single to me), nor Brandon committing to have two characters with such a big age gap in a relationship. I really enjoyed their verbal argument though and that little smile at the end by Jasnah was just the icing on the cake.

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

 

5 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

(That part where she said her men were smart to run and B4 were stupid almost made me have apoplexy)

Another scene that made my blood boil was the whole disguising Kaladin as a hideous person. Because that what he needs, to be made constantly the butt of her jokes, and he just sits stoically and takes it. Didn't they found respect for each other in the chasms in WoR? I get that the whole thing is supposed to be humorous but I really find not to be, maybe I'm missing something. I think Shallans character progression took a massive step in the wrong direction in OB.

Edited November 20, 2017 by DimChatz

[PhineasGage]

7 hours ago, RShara said:

Closest I could find so far.

Good job - I think that is plenty to prove the idea the beyond reasonable doubt that our basis to assume she had progressed quite far as a child - I am not sure how relevant it is to the story now. She has repressed so much that she may never recover those memories - indeed Pattern says something about her needing to learn again if she can't remember how to surgebind fully in WoR. Repression may not be the best coping mechanism, but unless it gets out of hand, it can work to keep someone functioning. It isn't as inherently problematic as the Shallan's dissociation. 

7 hours ago, Elena said:

Honestly, I feel a bit toyed with and definitely don't want any more of this arc. I'm all for analysing Shallan's mental state, but as soon as I even start to have thoughts about the state of her marriage I feel exhausted. No more.

Totally fair enough! Tho, I would respectfully suggest that you stay out if this thread - for you own good! I mean, I for one can't seem to stop scratching at the wound and making it bleed all over again. I don't want to bring others down with me! 

7 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Finally, Adolin was relieved at the betrothal.  He didn't really know what he was doing wrong.

I agree completely with this - he wants to help Shallan and it isn't his fault if he actually can't. I am concerned that she will blame him though and he definitely doesn't deserve that.

 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I know we have two more books in the "front five," but with Eshonai/Venli and Szeth being the main POV characters, I don't see Shallan getting the space she needs to actually deal with who she is and what she wants. It's much easier to play house with the pretty boy who says nice things than to change. And I think she does need to change.

Empahasis mine: I agree it is much  easier to lay down the burden of trying to change than accept the need to change. But this fundamentally breaks the "journey before destination" element of the oaths. I believe Dalinar points this out. Now I think Shallan does need a break, and I suspect the time-lapse will give her the necesary space - possibly book 4 as a whole will give her the space as well so I don't expect to see much development from her in the next book. 

On the other hand, just because it is Szeth and Eshonai's books does not mean she can't get much screen time. OB was Dalinar's book but Shallan gets a huge amount of screentime regardless. Kaladin got a huge amount of cover in WoR and ob was his "mini-flashback" book (for want of a better term). I do not think Kaladin got much progression in Book 4, but he did make some serious strides - I mean, for one thing, he's almost at the 4th Ideal. His flashbacks in OB were actually the most important part of his development. It would be entirely reasonable (esp given the way Shallan and Kaladin mirror each other in other sections of the books) for Shallan to have a "slow-burn" progression with minor flashbacks, most likely in Book 4, so that she can start to get to the point where her final ideal becomes a real possibility in book 5. I posted some WoB from Reddit earlier and in that BS specifically states that he expects Dalinar, Kaladin and Shallan to keep getting a good proportion of the coverage, their individual arcs seem to be so tied to each other and the direction of the series. 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

It's hard now that they're married though. If it does go south, spren don't look to kindly on oath-breaking. On the other hand, if Brandon does decide to explore her issues, maybe it will make her and Adolin stronger as a couple!

Of all of the spren, the cryptics seem to be the most likely to accept oathbreaking (external to the Ideals of course) as long as it leads to self-awareness. I would be more inclined to worry that she would lose the trust of Dalinar and Kaladin because they and their spren cannot handle oathbreaking. 

3 hours ago, Fallen_Ash said:

I feel bad ending it on that note. Kaladin isn't perfect either. In real life, the broodiness and doom and gloom attitude would get annoying. As a character in a fantasy epic, he is just so good. And smart and funny and very insightful and sensitive. As someone with depression, I like seeing a character who seriously struggles with it and never gives up. Adolin doesn't have that emotional draw for me. He's a good guy, but his defining character trait for this book was "fashionable," which I found quite disappointing.

Doom and gloom would get annoying but he is much lighter around Shallan. I agree with finding Adolin irritating. But then, I'm one of those people who is finds the idea of a partner who takes much longer than me to get ready really annoying. Its a good device to give humourous moments to the books, but living with it would get very old very quickly imo.

2 hours ago, wannabeninja said:

I think Shallan’s wedding is partly to juxtapose to that scene

I agree fully with this. Mirroring is a major part of the books - symmettry is vitally important on Roshar and the SA books all have massive elements of this throughout them. If you look at a compare/contrast of the Dalinar/Navani vs Adoin/Shallan wedding the contrasts are striking - Shallan even points some of this out.

1) Speed: Navani and Dalinar spend ages in an unrecognised but committed relationship. They rush the formal ceremony associated with Vorin weddings because, in a way, it is the least important bit to them - they are already committed. The words, whilst important to both of them, are essentially something they were already living.  Contrast this with Adolin/Shallan; they are in a formal but uncommitted relationship for 99% of the time they have known each other (I know the causal is less official than a full betrothal but it does lend a great deal of structure). Once the decision is made to marry, they rush the time to get to the "main event" of the wedding but take a huge amount of time to actually do the ceremony. The ceremony is, in some way, more important than the entering into the full betrothal.

2) The ceremony itself; Firstly, we, as the reader, see Navani/Dalinar's wedding. It is important from Dalinar's perspective to narrate it. On the other hand, we only see Shallan's buildup. I know it is Dalinar's book, but Shallan gets a huge amount of screentime elsewhere - but this bit is glossed over. Secondly, Navani and Dalinar have a small, private wedding - only the most important people to them are invited. Now I know some of this is political/religious in nature because of the condemnation of their marriage by the Vorin church, but some of it is because they only see the need to have those they love there for this important moment in their lives. the Adolin/Shallan wedding, in comparison is this major "royal wedding" where all the great and the good are invited - full of pomp and circumstance. They are required to go through all kinds of rituals and things before-hand. We don't know if Dalinar and Navani do this to the same extent- because from Dalinar's perspective those are much less important than the wedding itself. Shallan, on the other only shows the bit where she is alone. 

3) The glyphwards; I don't think we can be sure that Navani burned a glyphward prior to marrying Dalinar, but can anyone really imagine that she didn't? Navani is religious, devout and a genuine believer - despite marrying a confirmed heretic. Shallan, in contrast, never gets round to burning a glyphward before she leaves her chamber - she burns Mraize's letter instead. She seems to think Shallan is religious but we see very little actual evidence of this. The first thing we see Navani do when she thinks Dalinar is dead after Sadeas' betrayal is paint and burn a giant glyphward. How many do we see Shallan actually burn throughout the books? She says she should but she doesn't actually do that many from what I recall, and at a lifechanging moment, she neglects to do so.

4) Colours - ok so i've addressed this before but Navani wears "the traditional red", whereas Shallan wears "sapphire". Now even if we just assume this is simply blue because of the Kholin element, it isn't traditional otherwise although the rest of the ceremony seems to be following strictly to the traditional path of a Vorin ceremony. It's a minor point but very visual, appropriately for a lightweaver I suppose

5) Emotions. Dalinar feels nervous and is practically shaking. Shallan goes from feeling annoyed, tired, stressed, and disgruntled and put upon to suddenly feeling bright, cheerful and happy.She doesn't mention nerves - although we see her get nervous in loads of other situations - sometime without needs. She goes out of her solitude "to celebrate herself" - Dalinar in contrast only achieves proper joy once the wedding is complete - He cannot quite let himself believe it because it was something "he hadn't even allowed himself to dream". 

6) Gifts. This takes a while in the run-up to Shallan's wedding and we see several gifts. Navani and Dalinar skip the gift giving - it is explicitly stated that they insist no gifts were needed. Now again, some of this is political but it also shows that Navani and Dalinar need no gifts because they are getting each other. Shallan might have found the pre-wedding gift giving ceremony a trial, but it seems to be because she doesn't feel worthy to have the attention, not because she cannot wait for for the actual wedding to Adolin. 

It is these kinds of reverse symmetry elements that I truly love about Sanderson's writing, and why, despite feeling the end of OB (from the Adolin/Kaladin/Shallan perspective) was lacklustre, that I will continue to read his books. Now, obviously, until the front 5 are finished, this symmetry may indicate less than I currently believe, but for the time being, I am very prepared to look for symmetry in the books because these are the kind of devices that Sanderson loves to use. 

 

On an unrelated note, I do aologise for continually writing epic length posts - I feel like I am taking over this thread  sorry.

Edited November 20, 2017 by PhineasGage
typos

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Speed: Navani and Dalinar spend ages in an unrecognised but committed relationship. They rush the formal ceremony associated with Vorin weddings because, in a way, it is the least important bit to them - they are already committed. The words, whilst important to both of them, are essentially something they were already living.  Contrast this with Adolin/Shallan; they are in a formal but uncommitted relationship for 99% of the time they have known each other (I know the causal is less official than a full betrothal but it does lend a great deal of structure). Once the decision is made to marry, they rush the time to get to the "main event" of the wedding but take a huge amount of time to actually do the ceremony. The ceremony is, in some way, more important than the entering into the full betrothal.

Another thing is... it is highly implied, that Shallan is looking forward to the wedding, because she can finally have sex with Adolin then...

Quote

It was finally time. The wedding date had been set for only one week away--once the Alethi put their minds to something, they made it happen. Well, that was good. Shallan wouldn't want to go too far in a relationship without oaths, and storms, even one week was starting to sound like an eternity.

On one hand, I can understand it. She's young, still a virgin and excited for it, but shouldn't you be looking forward to something else when you're marrying the supposed love of your life? Does she even understand the importance of the wedding? Is sex the highest expression of love?

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Emotions. Dalinar feels nervous and is practically shaking. Shallan goes from feeling annoyed, tired, stressed, and disgruntled and put upon to suddenly feeling bright, cheerful and happy.She doesn't mention nerves - although we see her get nervous in loads of other situations - sometime without needs. She goes out of her solitude "to celebrate herself" - Dalinar in contrast only achieves proper joy once the wedding is complete - He cannot quite let himself believe it because it was something "he hadn't even allowed himself to dream". 

Funny thing is, that she sees all of that as a celebration of herself, Veil tells her so, when weddings normally are supposed to be celebrations of the couple. She completely forgets Adolin the process. Also the fact that Veil again doesn't associate herself with Shallan.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't think we can be sure that Navani burned a glyphward prior to marrying Dalinar, but can anyone really imagine that she didn't? Navani is religious, devout and a genuine believer - despite marrying a confirmed heretic. Shallan, in contrast, never gets round to burning a glyphward before she leaves her chamber - she burns Mraize's letter instead. She seems to think Shallan is religious but we see very little actual evidence of this. The first thing we see Navani do when she thinks Dalinar is dead after Sadeas' betrayal is paint and burn a giant glyphward. How many do we see Shallan actually burn throughout the books? She says she should but she doesn't actually do that many from what I recall, and at a lifechanging moment, she neglects to do so.

Radiant even reminds her, she still forgets.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

@SLNC I had missed the sexual element - although frankly I should be ashamed because that honestly seems to be the whole basis for their bloody relationship (thinking about how she persuades him that flying is the least of her concerns about a life mate). I mean, don't get me wrong, Flying probably should not be the first thing you look for in a partner, but perhaps, wanting to rip their clothes off shouldn't be either?

Another thing I forgot to mention was that she is excited about the wedding. Dalinar is excited about the marriage. Perhaps I'm old fashioned but isn't the marriage the important bit? I mean a wedding is basically just an expensive party and an excuse for your friends to get drunk at your expense. I am strongly reminded of a Friends scene (showing my age) where Chandler says he doesnt want to spend all his money of the wedding because he wants to spend it on the marriage.  (for the record - this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1eaQem6kZk)

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by PhineasGage
typo