[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, Discofrish said:

True, but all those seem like..exceptions. Kelsier died early on- and when he did, I felt like Vin was more of the main.

True, but Adolin is a side character like Kelsier was. Also, its a huge number of exceptions

1 hour ago, Discofrish said:

Honestly, i didn't really like the reckoners couple. They were to teenage-y for me

And they were way less annoying than Adolin/Shallan.

51 minutes ago, Harbour said:

What looks like the SW prequel level of cringeworthy line might be one of the most obvious hints on Shallan' fragmentation.

I think it is both imo - cringeworthy and  foreshadowy. He is good at that kind of thing. *Looks at every comment that Hoid has ever made*.

27 minutes ago, Bacon said:

It's so tropey and predictable that I really want the series to NOT do the thing everyone obviously knew was definitely going to happen since the first few chapters of book 1

More tropey than the literal Disney Prince Charming and Redheaded Disney Princess? I think you and I must have grown up with different tropes! Storms,  Adolin even has a name that is reminiscent of Adonis - a literal Greek god of beauty. Even his name (lit. born unto Light) makes him linked to a "Light"-weaver. I disagree that Kaladin and Shallan are more tropey than this.

I suppose however, that it is genuinely difficult to avoid romantic tropes because every literary romance has already been written. As a person who has probably read way more of the classics (eg Austen, Bronte etc) than I have contemporary fiction, the Kaladin and Shallan story is much more unusual than the Adolin/Shallan thing. The only thing that makes them a more classic romance is that we've seen a very clear misunderstanding which is a key part of the generic romance storyline (i.e. boy meets girl, minor conflicts, major misundersderstanding, reconcilliation, get together).

 

[Arch he/him]

There's going to be a 1 year time skip between oathbringer and the next book. How much of Shallans past she admits to him (if at all) will be a good indicator of where their relationship is at. Personally I'd prefer if my bride told me about her habit of killing family members before getting married, but I think Adolin will accept it. It's just a matter of how much faith she actually has in him.

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Arch said:

Personally I'd prefer if my bride told me about her habit of killing family members before getting married

And getting involved with the group that tried to kill the current queen.... I do agree that we will need to see how much she tells him - an open, clear, honest relationship will stabilise them and will have good indicators. If not, well its only a matter of time before it collapses. That doesn't mean it has to stay collapsed, but frankly, who would want to stay married to someone who has lied about everything?

8 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Overall... there was no reason for this. 

Unless the story is designed to make it feel like it results in little progression. I think, based on people's comments here, both Shadolin and Shalladin fans feel disspointed with the arc here. That, to me, feels like a calculated decision to make us want to see progression in the following books.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Arch said:

How much of Shallans past she admits to him (if at all) will be a good indicator of where their relationship is at. Personally I'd prefer if my bride told me about her habit of killing family members before getting married, but I think Adolin will accept it. It's just a matter of how much faith she actually has in him.

The fact, that she can't even tell him about the Ghostblood thing and pushes that task off to Veil doesn't fill me with optimism.

15 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I suppose however, that it is genuinely difficult to avoid romantic tropes because every literary romance has already been written. As a person who has probably read way more of the classics (eg Austen, Bronte etc) than I have contemporary fiction, the Kaladin and Shallan story is much more unusual than the Adolin/Shallan thing. The only thing that makes them a more classic romance is that we've seen a very clear misunderstanding which is a key part of the generic romance storyline (i.e. boy meets girl, minor conflicts, major misundersderstanding, reconcilliation, get together).

Exactly. That is why I hate to argument with tropes. Tropes are tropes for a reason and sometimes they aren't avoidable.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Awesomness]

Hello! this are my random thoughts about this (I'm not a native english speaker, and my thought are still all over the place with this book, so this will seem a little messy):

I felt like BS was totally trolling us with this Veiladin / Radiolin /SallaWTF issue.

Kaladin ´s  and Adolin ´s reactions were very mature. Shallan is just a mess.

She is not ready for a relationship, so I'm worried for Adolin right now. 

I´m glad Kaladin is starting to cheer himself up, and not relay on someone else to do it.

Adolin is just adorable. Imposible not to like him.

Mildly related topic: proto-lightweaver-Tien keeps being implied.

Brandon probably will pull a Gavilar-Navani-Gavilar thing here in the future. 

I´d like to see more of Shallan and Tal as friends. Can't get enough of Adolin - Kaladin friendship (why do some of you guys keep talking about "bromance"?)

Altogether I'm glad it didn't take a dramatic turn. I found this plot line mostly funny, but I don't think this is over. 

[Bacon]

11 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

More tropey than the literal Disney Prince Charming and Redheaded Disney Princess? I think you and I must have grown up with different tropes! Storms,  Adolin even has a name that is reminiscent of Adonis - a literal Greek god of beauty. Even his name (lit. born unto Light) makes him linked to a "Light"-weaver. I disagree that Kaladin and Shallan are more tropey than this.

That would've been true in the 90s. But these days, even in Disney films, it's practically inevitable that it will turn out Prince Charming wasn't actually the love of redhead princess's life all along. That's doubly true for a prearranged marriage where they were already engaged before ever meeting. Can you honestly say that when Jasnah originally told Shalan about the causal, you didn't think "oh, that's not going to last"?

[Rainier]

Before Oathbringer came out, I was expecting the dissonance between Shallan and Veil to kill (or threaten) Pattern, and while we got some of that, Pattern himself was never really threatened. If True Shallan can't continue on her progression of self-awareness, everyone's favorite chaperone will be dead-eyed before you know it. I was expecting it to be when she couldn't keep juggling the Ghostbloods and the Kholins, which as we've seen has yet to happen. However, I expect it to happen in an upcoming book, and when it comes to pass, either Pattern or the marriage is going to survive, but not both.

 

My alternate theory is the Shallan/Adolin is set in stone for the first 5 books, but either Adolin doesn't make it to the back 5, or Kaladin and Shallan take on a Taln/Ash bond after they both go to Damnation between books 5 and 6. 

[DeployParachute]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

I wonder how she will react if Adolin suddenly wants something from her for once. Because right now, Adolin is the only one making sacrifices.

God, yes, thank you!  I've been asking myself this too.  What is it that Adolin gets from this relationship that he needs.  He can't be the only one giving, and I think that the relationship is shaping up to be in that state for a while.  

The only thing I can think of is perhaps Adolin gets a feeling of purpose from Shallan?  A way of having his life be meaningful and relevant in a world that has just been upended?

[Rainier]

Just now, DeployParachute said:

What is it that Adolin gets from this relationship that he needs

To be fair, he's getting exactly what he needed at the beginning of book 1: a wife who can stand him. 

Adolin's relationship goals have never been high. I think he's just pleased that she's a hottie and that she's willing to put up with him, as those have been the only two criteria we've seen from him. Sure, it seems that he's grown to care for her, but let's not pretend that Adolin was ever out looking for a soulmate or the love of his life.

[PhineasGage]

14 minutes ago, Bacon said:

That would've been true in the 90s. But these days, even in Disney films, it's practically inevitable that it will turn out Prince Charming wasn't actually the love of redhead princess's life all along. That's doubly true for a prearranged marriage where they were already engaged before ever meeting. Can you honestly say that when Jasnah originally told Shalan about the causal, you didn't think "oh, that's not going to last"?

If you are going to bring the dates in I'd suggest Brandon grew up with tropes more like mine than those that are more recent. And yes, I can honestly say I didn't think "oh thats not going to last". I honestly thought he was going to run with it because if the way he has handled arranged marriages in the past. Not only that, people expect arranged marriages to fail but, in cultures where arranged marriages occur, many are very successful, they are not inherently bad as long as everyone involved is happy with the plan. But breaking an arranged marriage is MUCH more unusual.

10 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

The only thing I can think of is perhaps Adolin gets a feeling of purpose from Shallan?  A way of having his life be meaningful and relevant in a world that has just been upended?

And even then, he would get a sense of purpose from his father, brother, personal history etc. I suppose you could argue 'happiness' but that is a bit nebulous in my mind - why would she make him happy? I suppose she can make him laugh, and she can be sincere but we less and less of sincere Shallan as she hides more and more within her lies.

7 minutes ago, Rainier said:

To be fair, he's getting exactly what he needed at the beginning of book 1: a wife who can stand him. 

Wow. Harsh! I mean you are right, but I might have phrased it in a less brutal way  I do agree with the rest of your statement though. I think for Adolin things have pretty much always just worked out okay. He likely sees marriage as working the same way, even though he must have realised that his parents' marriage wasn't the happiest. Things have come too easily for Adolin Kholin and he might soon realise that he will need to work much harder than he has in the past to make this work.

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by PhineasGage
typos

[Arch he/him]

1 hour ago, Bacon said:

They're tropey, but nowhere near to those levels. They start as utterly unrelated PoV characters in the first book, they both discover their surgebinding at the same time, they have inborn prejudices against each other (lighteyes and darkeyes), they're always accidentally running into each other, the list goes on. Every step of the way, the narrative is practically screaming "THESE TWO WILL BE TOGETHER!". Even when Shalan and Adolin started seeing each other, there was a constant undertone of "yeah, but just until she falls in love with Kaladin"

No offense, but I think you're missing the point of why tropes are bad in the first place. what makes the most thematic sense is much more important. And as you said the narrative has been pointing to this for most of the series and contradicting your own narrative just to dodge a ''trope'' is just bad writing... I really don't think thats what Sanderson is doing and I just hope there will be a more satisfying end to this later on.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Arch

[Elena she/her]

12 minutes ago, Arch said:

No offense, but I think you're missing the point of why tropes are bad in the first place. what makes the most thematic sense is much more important. And as you said the narrative has been pointing to this for most of the series and contradicting your own narrative just to dodge a ''trope'' is just bad writing...

So much this. Somewhere along the line fandom communities became too gebre savvy and started seeing tropes as inherently bad things. Tropes are the staples of literature; we use them for a reason. They can be badly done, but it's not being tropey that makes a storyline bad - tropes are the bones of the plot, and going out of one's way just to avoid them leaves a story with no structure.

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Can't get enough of Adolin - Kaladin friendship (why do some of you guys keep talking about "bromance"?)

Because if one of them were a woman, they would be the most popular pairing and we wouldn't be having this discussion. They have the most amazing chemistry. Also, it's a beautiful, hammy word.

That was a really well done analysis @Dreamstorm

 

[Steeldancer he/him]

4 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Amazing how no one here seems to want Shallan and Adolin to be happy together.   You are ignoring Shallan's heartfelt explanation of why she chose Adolin and doesn't want Kaladin.   Ten pages of over-analyzing how, even though Adolin and Shallan are married, she is still somehow going to end up with Kaladin.  Give it up people.  The SS Shalladin has been sunk.  

Whoever gave this post a downvote, please stop. 

You can have your discussion, but just because some of us don't die for the lack of Shalladin doesn't mean we shouldn't have that opinion. Ok? 

Also, friend, you may want to avoid being aggressive like you are in this post. Just thought I should add that. They're allowed to discuss their opinions too. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Steeldancer
Wrong point

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

You can have your discussion, but just because some of us don't die for the lack of Shalladin doesn't mean we shouldn't have that opinion. Ok? 

He's adding nothing to the discussion. Actually, he's trying to disrupt the discussion by alleging, that we don't want Shallan and Adolin to be happy and telling us to "give it up".

His opinion is fine. His wording of it - is not.

[Steeldancer he/him]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He's adding nothing to the discussion. Actually, he's trying to disrupt the discussion by alleging, that we don't want Shallan and Adolin to be happy and telling us to "give it up".

His opinion is fine. His wording of it - is not.

Note: I edited my post. I addressed that very thing. 

[Harbour he/him]

Another interesting question is will BS bring Shallan's brothers into the whole Kaladin-Helaran deal or not? They came back not just to make a surprise for Shallan i guess. They have a purpose and i believe they are here to be involved into Shallan-Adolin-Kaladin dynamic. Would be interesting to hear their thoughts on various themes around that trio.

And the worst thing that i dont want to happen is Shalladin with the cost of Adolin's life. I dont want Shalladin to happen partly because Adolin died. There are two cons of this terrible turn of the plot:

1) It makes Adolin an ultimate looser. He just... died, heroic or not, but he didn't break up with Shallan on his own because solid reasons, but because some wound. Thats crap ending for Shadolin. I dont want Shadolin's end (if there will be one of course) to be handled as bad as its beginning. Handle it with class, BS.

2) It kinda makes Shalladin happening mostly because someone else, not because Shallan and Kaladin potential love and struggle and other exciting stuff. Againg, if BS ever gonna handle Shalladin, i hope he will do it with the class. Let it be because other reasons than Adolin's death.

I also like other's ideas about maturing through other pairings. Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and someone else. Let them grow up. Then hook them up in the back half of the SA (for example) already matured, because solid reasons, like Navani and Dalinar did in OB.

Let Adolin realize what exactly he want. Because, given all three books, i wouldnt be surprised if it will be him who will provoke the break up, realizing that he wanted to be with Shallan because its pretty safe option and she is just different. I can hardly imagine he will somehow find something else besides that to fuel their relationships. There are a whole world of girls in the next 7 books who might be better than she and give him what he really want.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Harbour

[mariapapadia she/her]

OK. So you know how you have a destination and you imagine yourself getting to that on a nice boat, in the sun, sipping some wine, maybe some big waves, but in the end everything works out and you get where you want ? THIS WASN'T IT. This was a journey in an extracrowded bus, full of sweaty stranges on a torrid 40 degree summer day. This is how I would summarize this journey , even if the destination is enjoyable. 

I haven't read many other replies, but this post has been boiling in me like Oathbringer in Dalinar, so I have to let it out. Maybe I will be to harsh or mean, but at this moment I am really mad. 

I was one of the people who was all in for this love triangle, I was anticipating it so much and I was advocating that whatever Brandon will write it will be a satisfying conclusion. Scratch that. My problem isn't with Shallan and Adolin getting together, but with Brandon. God knows how I love this man and his books, he is by far my favourite author, but with this he blew it for me. I am dissapointed because I felt like I have been promised something, but there was never the intention of being given that certain thing. And I am mad because Brandon has never been the guy to promise something and then not deliver it. The only things that I've had problems with in Brandon's previous books so far, where female characters and romances and up until OB everything was improving so much. The tension he created when it came to romance, the female characters, everything screamed great for me. I don't really understand what was the point of Kaladin in this whole thing. Why create so much tension between two characters and then not commit to any of it?! Teasing without giving anything is no fun. Why not even adress it between those certain characters?! 

I didn't want Shallan and Kaladin to end up together. Half way through the book I was still undecided on who I prefer and then the whole Kholinar bussiness happened and I was only thinking "God, this girl really needs a therapist, not a relationship". I loved Wit being the one that was there to teach Shallan to pick herlself up and I feel like that was scratched when Shallan decided to be with Adolin because he made her stable. Don't get me wrong, I understand how a person can make you feel better, but I was really hoping Shallan whould achieve that on her own, not through a romantic relationship. The way I read it, especially at the end when the switches between Shallan/Veil/ Radiant made my head hurt, was that Adolin was an ancor for her and I don't support the idea of placing the responsability of your mental health on another person. That will always end up bad. I was a bit afraid at one point that if Kaladin ended up with Shallan, it will be because "she makes the darkenss go away". If I got a penny for everytime I fell for that line, I wouldn't have had to pay anything for this book. So, I am glad that at least that didn't happen. 

There was absolutely NO conflict in Shallan's and Adolin's relationship. NONE whatsoever. The multiple personas thing is Shallan's conflict and it didn't creat a real stuggle to their relationship. I don't feel like they progressed in any way. I was expecting to see Adolin's commitment issues adressed, have something that felt like a real milestone or have her seen from his point of view. To show to the reader why he likes her, why they are right together. Show me, not tell me. Instead it was all the same from the beginning. They got to know eachother better, but no spice,  nothing exciting. Instead of introducing the Kaladin element, I would've preffered for them to have conflict in a different way. To fight, to lie, to have anything to make this more.. 

The Kaladin element could've been explored so much more. I didn't want drama or for them to end up together, but I wanted conflict, struggles. Kaladin and Adolin adressing this. Kaladin and Shallan adressing their feelings. Before you tell this isn't a romance novel and it woudln't have beein interesting to see those disscusion, don't tell me that the massages , cheesy giddy moments or Kaladin having the same argument will Syl added something to the story. So much more could've been squeezed of this and it frustrates me so much. It felt like Brandon had an intention in WoR, but then with everything else happening in the book he changed his mind and dropped it. And maybe I have no right to be mad at him, but I am. Don't make promises if you don't intend on keeping them.

I don't think this will be adressed any further. I think this was it, for the potential love triangle, the marriage and Shallan's declaration at the end made everything pretty clear. Honestly I am not interested in reading more about this. I felt like it was poorly handled and instead of having Moash mirroring Kaladin's arc from WoK, I would've preffered this to be done properly. 

Also, I don't quite like the direction Kaladin's plot is going. I feel like he is being groomed for becoming a god. His unusual ability to split the storm, his strong will, honour, Jezrien's death etc. make me thing he might go on 

Spoiler

Vin's path

Anyway, at this moment I am repeating myself, but the conclusion is : I am not mad about the destination, but about the journey. 

 

On 17.11.2017 at 2:28 AM, Starla said:

I agree with others that this plot thread was a little clunky. Kaladin is my main man, so I usually look at things from his angle. I want whatever is good for him. I went into Oathbringer open to him having a relationship with Shallan if that’s what made him happy and nobody got hurt (I also love Adolin so I wouldn't want it at his expense.) However, by the end of the book I felt that Kaladin dodged a bullet. This is mainly due to Shallan’s increasingly erratic behavior throughout the book. I don't think she's ready for a long term committed relationship to anyone, and I would be concerned for Kaladin if he ended up in a relationship with her at this point. He has too much going on with the desolation and his own growth as a radiant to deal with all that.

I like Shallan and hope she can heal and find stability, but I am concerned that she will rely on her partner for that stability, rather than finding it within herself. At the end of the book it felt like she was completely rattled by her rapidly shifting feelings and personalities and grabbed a life raft wherever she could find it. Adolin is stable and steady and he makes her feel safe. He’ll be there when she needs him. I don’t think this will fix her issues, it is the illusion of security, and I worry for them in the long run.

Also, the Shadesmar section revealed some character traits I hadn’t considered before. Looking at Kaladin and Syl’s interactions, they are very much a dynamic duo, fiercely loyal, each looking out for the other before they look out for themselves. This Kaladin’s nature, he works well in a team and usually puts others' needs first. Shallan, on the other hand, is independent and focused on her own goals. I get the sense that this is part of her fundamental nature as an artist and a Lightweaver. Artists are focused on their own ideas and creations. Even her relationship with Pattern seems more academic than personal. They had very little interaction in Shadesmar, aside from whatever information Pattern could give. If and when Kaladin ever does have a relationship, I feel like he would work best with a strong, grounded partner who will have his back when he needs it, and I’m no longer sure Shallan can do that.

Aside from all that, I love the continuing bromance between Kaladin and Adolin, so I’m rooting for that to continue no matter where the romantic relationships lead. 

Totally agree ! I would pin this if I could. 

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

32 minutes ago, Harbour said:

And the worst thing that i dont want to happen is Shalladin with the cost of Adolin's life. I dont want Shalladin to happen partly because Adolin died. There are two cons of this terrible turn of the plot:

1) It makes Adolin an ultimate looser. He just... died, heroic or not, but he didn't break up with Shallan on his own because solid reasons, but because some wound. Thats crap ending for Shadolin. I dont want Shadolin's end (if there will be one of course) to be handled as bad as its beginning. Handle it with class, BS.

2) It kinda makes Shalladin happening mostly because someone else, not because Shallan and Kaladin potential love and struggle and other exciting stuff. Againg, if BS ever gonna handle Shalladin, i hope he will do it with the class. Let it be because other reasons than Adolin's death.

I also like other's ideas about maturing through other pairings. Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin and someone else. Let them grow up. Then hook them up in the back half of the SA (for example) already matured, because solid reasons, like Navani and Dalinar did in OB.

Let Adolin realize what exactly he want. Because, given all three books, i wouldnt be surprised if it will be him who will provoke the break up, realizing that he wanted to be with Shallan because its pretty safe option and she is just different. I can hardly imagine he will somehow find something else besides that to fuel their relationships. There are a whole world of girls in the next 7 books who might be better than she and give him what he really want.

Yes this! Exactly this! Let the triangle end at its proper monment and with a proper and strong conclusion, for everyone. If the current status is the resolution then I have to say that I find it rushed and weak, and that's what makes me think that resolution has not yet been reached. Another reason of why I don't it to be over yet is that it has good growth potential for all involved, no matter where it goes, but the plotline has to be properly concluded for it to have any kind of meanigful impact.

Edited November 20, 2017 by DimChatz

[kari-no-sugata]

Just as a general comment to nobody in particular:  I've had my own angst on this aspect of the book (much earlier in this thread) and am trying to get over it rather than too bogged down in negativity. So I'm intentionally not responding to certain posts depending on the content.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

• Shallan:  She is.... as mess.  I *think* we are supposed to think Adolin sees the "real" her and grounds her and that's what she needs?  It was just poorly done, though, as she seems to only make a decision to get married to him as a way to keep him...  I'm going to assume that we as the reader were supposed to think that Adolin was the healthiest, best choice for her?  But it was just not done in an convincing way...  She seems more confused and broken than ever.  Basically mooning over your crush while waiting for your fiance, dramatically telling your fiance you want to get married NOW after fiance tries to give you space, and then being ALL OVER your fiance in public just strikes me as so... wrong.  Or like it was written by a teenage girl.  But I think we're supposed to see this as resolved?  As someone else mentioned, marriage is pretty sacrosanct in Sanderson's books, so I feel like he considers this final.

Overall... there was no reason for this.  Adolin could have has his crisis of importance without involving Kaladin.  Kaladin's outcomes from the triangle seem fairly unnecessary.  Shallan's realization that she wants Adolin was just... abrupt and poorly done.  I guess Sanderson wanted there to be a "choice" for Shallan so there was some "conflict"?  But in the end, I think he gave up on the plot thread and so just phoned it in in the execution.

That's a nice write-up. I think the good Shallan and Adolin sections are in Parts 1 and 4 (scenes between them are mostly absent in Parts 2 and 3 and maybe the less said about their romantic scenes in Part 5 the better). In Part 1 we saw Shallan and Adolin supporting each other in various ways and they really seemed to work well as a pair. In Part 4, Adolin does a great job of supporting both Shallan and Kaladin even while he's got his own problems to think about and feels way out of his depth. There's some significant (but understated) moments between Shallan and Adolin here as well that I enjoyed on my first read and also on re-reads.

Back in chapter 2, Dalinar describes Adolin as "steady" and that's really what Adolin is. He can occasionally be overwhelmed but he's not a man of extremes. In Part 4 he properly listens to Shallan and does what he can to support her, even if it's just to stay quiet or give her a hug. I thought his POV scenes in Part 5 were great - at least there, the developments with Maya felt like a (mostly) natural progression from WoR and the rest of OB.

I agree it's hard to know what to make of Shallan in the end here. If I read Shallan's last two POVs and try to forget the rest then it feels like it's supposed to be a high note with Shallan finally starting to properly get over her self-hatred. I'm sure we are supposed to question it as well. There's clearly more to come with Shallan and there's plenty of known internal and external challenges left for her to face. It's hard to say what our expectations should be for them as a couple - they are certainly very relaxed with each other. Dealing with the Ghostbloods (or the other highprinces) might cause strains between them if they come up with very different solutions. Shallan's inner problems seem likely to cause problems at some point but who knows how often and how much.

[Bacon]

40 minutes ago, Arch said:

No offense, but I think you're missing the point of why tropes are bad in the first place. what makes the most thematic sense is much more important. And as you said the narrative has been pointing to this for most of the series and contradicting your own narrative just to dodge a ''trope'' is just bad writing... I really don't think thats what Sanderson is doing and I just hope there will be a more satisfying end to this later on.

My distaste for the match is less about aspects of it being identifiable as tropes, and more about it feeling contrived. So much about what happens around Kaladin and Shalan feels like it happens just because they're main characters. To an extent, that particular syndrome is unavoidable just because you've gotta keep people interested in them from book to book. But thanks to such a tight focus on the from the get-go Shalan and Kaladin always felt inevitable even From before they met each other, regardless of what they personally wanted in a relationship. At the end of Oathbringer when Adolin confronted her saying she would be better off with Kaladin, it's like Shalan got a copy of the script she was supposed to read and decided "hey, you know what? Screw that".

I love that. I mean sure, it's not the best choice available. She obviously SHOULD have ran off to be with Rock. But no story is perfect I suppose.

[PlanetReelo she/her]

2 hours ago, Bacon said:

That would've been true in the 90s. But these days, even in Disney films, it's practically inevitable that it will turn out Prince Charming wasn't actually the love of redhead princess's life all along. That's doubly true for a prearranged marriage where they were already engaged before ever meeting. Can you honestly say that when Jasnah originally told Shalan about the causal, you didn't think "oh, that's not going to last"?

The point is, the 'arranged marriage working out' thing is an overused trope because BS himself keeps using it. And I do think the 'trope' argument is a stale one, because it's so dependent on individual exposure. It always comes down to 'my trope is less tropey than yours'. I personally am ridiculously tired of seeing the 'playboy/womaniser suddenly changes because he finds the right girl' trope. In TV/novels/manga/anime, you name it. Makes my eyes roll to the back of my skull.

Edited November 20, 2017 by PlanetReelo

[Egomere]

@PlanetReelo

And Adolin definately comes accross as a playboy type person doesn't he having seemingly dated the entirety of Alethei lighteyed daughters before meeting Shallan. Add in BS overuse of arranged marrige this I can imagine would make your reading the book twice as hard with prolonged headaches....

[Dreamstorm]

6 minutes ago, Bacon said:

My distaste for the match is less about aspects of it being identifiable as tropes, and more about it feeling contrived. So much about what happens around Kaladin and Shalan feels like it happens just because they're main characters. To an extent, that particular syndrome is unavoidable just because you've gotta keep people interested in them from book to book. But thanks to such a tight focus on the from the get-go Shalan and Kaladin always felt inevitable even From before they met each other, regardless of what they personally wanted in a relationship. At the end of Oathbringer when Adolin confronted her saying she would be better off with Kaladin, it's like Shalan got a copy of the script she was supposed to read and decided "hey, you know what? Screw that".

I love that. I mean sure, it's not the best choice available. She obviously SHOULD have ran off to be with Rock. But no story is perfect I suppose.

I don't think most people here are upset about the fact that main female character and main male character didn't end up together.  It's that a dynamic was built up throughout almost two books, and then suddenly "solved" in a the blink of an eye in a way that didn't follow the previous development.  To use your analogy, if you just replace the last pages of a script without totally rewriting the whole script, you end up with a story that doesn't hang together.  Unfortunately, that seems to be what happened here. 

17 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

So much more could've been squeezed of this and it frustrates me so much. It felt like Brandon had an intention in WoR, but then with everything else happening in the book he changed his mind and dropped it. And maybe I have no right to be mad at him, but I am. Don't make promises if you don't intend on keeping them.

I don't think this will be adressed any further. I think this was it, for the potential love triangle, the marriage and Shallan's declaration at the end made everything pretty clear. Honestly I am not interested in reading more about this. I felt like it was poorly handled and instead of having Moash mirroring Kaladin's arc from WoK, I would've preffered this to be done properly. 

I completely agree with this (and the rest of your post.)  The thing that I find frustrating is it would have been amazing character development (in my mind) if when Adolin came to tell Shallan he was going to step aside, Shallan's reaction would have been the same "I'm not a prize" speech but instead of jumping into marriage, saying she didn't want to be with anyone right then as she had a lot to sort out with herself.  (Broken or not, if you're flipping between two people, it's probably a sign you shouldn't commit to either of them at that exact moment, no?)  I actually think that would have flowed nicely and set up much stronger character development. 

[Guest]

@mariapapadia

To be honest, I have been waiting for your write-up, so thank you.

I don't agree with everything, but with the general sentiment.

41 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

My problem isn't with Shallan and Adolin getting together, but with Brandon. God knows how I love this man and his books, he is by far my favourite author, but with this he blew it for me. I am dissapointed because I felt like I have been promised something, but there was never the intention of being given that certain thing. And I am mad because Brandon has never been the guy to promise something and then not deliver it. The only things that I've had problems with in Brandon's previous books so far, where female characters and romances and up until OB everything was improving so much. The tension he created when it came to romance, the female characters, everything screamed great for me. I don't really understand what was the point of Kaladin in this whole thing. Why create so much tension between two characters and then not commit to any of it?! Teasing without giving anything is no fun. Why not even adress it between those certain characters?! 

I am afraid to say this, but you are completely right. Brandon really disappointed me here. Not because Kaladin and Shallan didn't get together, like you, halfway through the book, I felt like Kaladin is really dodging a bullet. This is simply not the right time for them, but what greatly angers me is that Brandon decided to completely drop it. The chasm sequence in WoR was one of the most beautifully crafted pieces of prose I have ever read. Ever. It was subtly romantic and moving, while also having a real sense of danger. I just loved the interaction between Kaladin and Shallan... the two just work. The conversation in Shadesmar? On the boat? Started exactly the same. I immediately started grinning, because I felt how they just... Connect, yes, with a capital C. And now? I'm afraid we'll see even less, since, knowing Kaladin, he'll distance herself even more from Shallan out of respect for Adolin.

Which brings me to Adolin... I really want to like the guy... I really do. But it is just so hard, when he is exactly the thing standing between Kaladin and Shallan - even just talking to each other. Kaladin basically constantly recites "She is betrothed to Adolin.", so he never talks to her. It fits Kaladin's character, but it was exactly what I was afraid of when the three went to Kholinar. Another thing, which really makes me dislike him is the almost cult-like worship of his character, that is being practiced. It makes me feel like people seem to get something, that I don't get. I get it. He's a nice guy. And?

/personal rant over

41 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

There was absolutely NO conflict in Shallan's and Adolin's relationship. NONE whatsoever. The multiple personas thing is Shallan's conflict and it didn't creat a real stuggle to their relationship. I don't feel like they progressed in any way. I was expecting to see Adolin's commitment issues adressed, have something that felt like a real milestone or have her seen from his point of view. To show to the reader why he likes her, why they are right together. Show me, not tell me. Instead it was all the same from the beginning. They got to know eachother better, but no spice,  nothing exciting. Instead of introducing the Kaladin element, I would've preffered for them to have conflict in a different way. To fight, to lie, to have anything to make this more.. 

So. Much. This. I am so, so afraid, that they will never experience real conflict. Why? Adolin never tells Shallan a piece of his mind. He never challenges her. He is blindly accepting everything she is doing. But I don't want to solely blame him. Shallan does the same. Their relationship is shallow and bland and I'm very afraid that it is going to stay that way.

 

41 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Before you tell this isn't a romance novel and it woudln't have beein interesting to see those disscusion, don't tell me that the massages , cheesy giddy moments or Kaladin having the same argument will Syl added something to the story.

I'm going to be verbose here: "Ist das jetzt wirklich dein Ernst, Brandon? Fällt dir wirklich nichts besseres ein?" (Are you serious, Brandon? Can't you really think of something better?) is something I have exclaimed during reading those passages complete with an eye-roll.

Luckily, the rest of the book was good. But this... this was just wasted potential par exellence.

Edited November 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Arch he/him]

31 minutes ago, Bacon said:

My distaste for the match is less about aspects of it being identifiable as tropes, and more about it feeling contrived. So much about what happens around Kaladin and Shalan feels like it happens just because they're main characters. To an extent, that particular syndrome is unavoidable just because you've gotta keep people interested in them from book to book. But thanks to such a tight focus on the from the get-go Shalan and Kaladin always felt inevitable even From before they met each other, regardless of what they personally wanted in a relationship. At the end of Oathbringer when Adolin confronted her saying she would be better off with Kaladin, it's like Shalan got a copy of the script she was supposed to read and decided "hey, you know what? Screw that".

I love that. I mean sure, it's not the best choice available. She obviously SHOULD have ran off to be with Rock. But no story is perfect I suppose.

Thats a lot more reasonable a critism, but i still think pulling the carpet from underneath your audience like that is a cheap trick. It was just so abrupt... One moment both Veil and Radiant are ready to jump on to Kaladin then a few pages later Adolin and Shallan are getting married?!?
Honestly, I don't even know if I want Shallan and Kaladin together, but this just isnt a good way of ending this plotline (which is why i hope it isnt over). Especially when listing off listing Adolins good qualities the fact that he's attractive is both the first and last thing she mentions... I don't think this relationship is fair to adolin either lol.

edit: I just think there needs to at the very least be some closure for me to accept Adolin and Shallan. ''I'm an artist, Adolin. I appreciate a nice picture when I see one'', come on... is this a joke??

Edited November 20, 2017 by Arch