kari-no-sugata Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 This is sort-of a follow-up to my initial post in this thread after I’ve had time to digest things more. Rather than complaining about what we didn’t get I’ll focus more on what we did get and where it might go. This will be long and might include some rare positivity. Book 4 is supposed to take place about a year on from OB. How much will have changed? I doubt any of our 3 characters (in the thread title) will have said any new Ideals. It’s possible that Shallan could even be pregnant or have even have a baby by then but I’d be quite surprised if Brandon goes there yet with her character unless it somehow ties into her final Truth/Ideal. She is married to a highprince now so that will be a big enough change for her but I doubt the humans will have retaken Kholinar before book 4 has started so she’ll probably only have to manage those in Urithiru. We’ve seen in WoR and in OB that she was somewhat managing Sebarial’s books so that experience will probably help, as will Jasnah’s training. I’m guessing Jasnah will mostly be managing Urithiru (and the highprinces in general) and helping Dalinar with the alliance. I’m guessing Gaz, Vathah, Ishnah etc will be mostly used for information gathering. Will Vathah progress to becoming a Radiant? I wonder how many squires Shallan will get. I was happy to see the Jasnah POVs in Part 2 and her thoughts on Shallan. It’s a shame we didn’t see similar thoughts from others. For example, Dalinar barely thinks about Shallan at all - it’s more like she’s some convenient resource to him and might as well be furniture otherwise. Jasnah had these thoughts on Shallan that I agree with: Quote An excellent question. Jasnah searched through the papers on her small table. She’d been collecting reports from her informants in the warcamps—the ones who had survived—about Shallan. She’d truly done well in Jasnah’s absence. Perhaps what the child needed was not more structure, but more challenges. I don’t know if being wife to a highprince will be the right sort of challenge for Shallan but she has been involved in “management” for some time, including helping her father with the house finances, and she seems to be able to handle accounting reasonably well and even enjoy it a bit. We’ve not seen Shallan get too involved with politics yet so I wonder how she’ll handle her peers in the Alethi. She’ll have other challenges as well of course and it’ll be interesting to see what approach Jasnah takes with Shallan’s training, though I think the general approach she took in tWoK won’t be too bad (Jasnah gave Shallan goals but more or less let her decide how to solve them). In Part 1 I wondered if Shallan would use Radiant for political events and the like (since she felt Radiant would want to take part) but in Part 5 Radiant seems to be a warrior only - maybe that will change? I wonder what will happen to Shallan’s brothers and also Helaran’s Shards - Oathbringer itself was recovered so presumably Helaran’s Blade was as well. I don’t know if the Plate survived but maybe Shallan will use it if it did? Wikim seems similar to Renarin in personality and perhaps he will become a squire-in-training under Renarin? I doubt Balat’s injury could be healed so what will he do? Maybe settle down as well and try to re-build the Davar house? Perhaps Jushu will take on Helaran’s Blade since he was interested in duelling? I can’t imagine Adolin changing too much. I don’t know if his killing of Sadeas will come out or not. I’m not sure if it’ll make a big difference either way. Perhaps the main development will be with Maya. He’ll also have to get used to directly dealing with other highprinces as an equal. I wonder how much Shallan will tell Adolin about herself and how they’ll deal with the Ghostbloods (there’s certainly more to come there). In Part 1 I felt that Shallan and Adolin were working more and more like a “pair” so I expect to see more of them working together (like Dalinar and Navani). I guess Kaladin will be similar to Adolin in that his situation won’t have changed too much in a year but he’ll have a lot of thinking to do over his Oaths etc. I can imagine him feeling awkward around Adolin and Shallan after their marriage but if he can get over that (which seems likely enough) then I think they could become close friends, which I’ve argued for before. While Kaladin does benefit from being with Shallan it’s not like they have to be lovers for that and Kaladin would probably prefer Shallan in small doses anyway. Kaladin gets rather hero worshipped by his men so it would probably be good for him to have some close “peers” (friends) in Shallan and Adolin for things he would struggle to share with his men. I think that’s ultimately where Brandon is going with Shallan and Kaladin - he wanted enough to happen between them such that they could become close friends. That does allow for the possibility of some romantic tinged friction but OB nipped that in the bud. I’ve argued this before but I think Kaladin isn’t ready for a real romantic relationship just yet. It’s not so much that he’s not mature (he’s mature before his years in a number of ways) but rather the way he lives - he’s highly focused (quite reasonably) on protecting, training and supporting those under him. He’s not good at relaxing. Part of me imagines him on Earth being something like a hardboiled workaholic detective. Syl is trying to help him but I don’t think he’s ready to take a step back and not be a soldier all the time. I would be totally fine with Kaladin and Syl having some kind of platonic romance but I’m not sure if it would be satisfying. With regards to Kaladin’s Oaths and general progression, reading from the experience with the Skybreakers, it seems likely that most members of most Orders do not in fact reach the Final Ideal. Essentially, each step is harder than the last. It might feel a bit too easy for some of Kaladin’s squires to become Radiants but I wouldn’t be surprised if Kaladin is the only Windrunner to reach the Final Ideal. I had wondered about how Lightweavers would progress if they don’t have enough deep Truths to speak but based on the Skybreakers my guess is that they would simply be stuck - if you don’t have enough deep Truths to admit to you can’t progress far as a Lightweaver (essentially, the more broken you are the further you can potentially progress but doing so could also break you for real). With regards to Kaladin’s feelings towards Shallan, I was always in the camp that his feelings weren’t love. Back in chapter 10 he feels that Syl’s suggestion that he likes Shallan were “uncomfortably close to the truth”, so what in fact were they? I doubt that overall it was like his feelings for Tien (love/affection towards a sibling). I think it was more like “respect” or “awe” or something along those lines - from his point of view, she could cope with things that he couldn’t. While Shallan did explain some of her past to Kaladin, I don’t think he actually understood her any better - perhaps less, if anything. Eg chapter 60: Quote How does she smile like that? Kaladin wondered. During their trip through the chasms together, he’d learned her secrets. The wounds she hid. And yet . . . she could simply ignore them somehow. Kaladin had never been able to do that. Even when he wasn’t feeling particularly grim, he felt weighed down by his duties or the people he needed to care for. From chapter 99: Quote Something felt warm within him at being near her. Something felt right. It wasn’t like with Laral, his boyhood crush. Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance. It was something different, and he couldn’t define it. He only knew he didn’t want it to stop. It pushed back the darkness. “Down in the chasms,” he said, “when we were trapped together, you talked about your life. About . . . your father.” “I remember,” she said softly. “In the darkness of the storm.” “How do you do it, Shallan? How do you keep smiling and laughing? How do you keep from fixating on the terrible things that have happened?” “I cover them up. I have this uncanny ability to hide away anything I don’t want to think about. It . . . it’s getting harder, but for most things I can just . . .” She trailed off, staring straight ahead. “There. Gone.” “Wow.” “I know,” she whispered. “I’m crazy.” “No. No, Shallan! I wish I could do the same.” Essentially, he wishes that he could do what he thinks Shallan is doing but he doesn’t really get it and it would probably be too hard for Shallan to explain it properly. He doesn’t take Shallan seriously when she says that she’s crazy (which is why Shallan doesn't consider what she does to be impressive). But even if she could explain it, Shallan is on the Lightweaver path and Kaladin is on the Windrunner path - they aren’t the same and what works for one probably wouldn’t work for the other. Shallan wouldn’t be able to take Kaladin’s approach either (and still be a Lightweaver). Each path has different costs and benefits. Shallan can help brighten Kaladin’s day but she probably can’t solve his inner problems. It’s likely that talking to her could help him though, to help think through his issues but he’ll still have to come up with the actual solution. It might be an interesting twist if Kaladin killing Helaran and how Shallan reacts to that might end up helping Kaladin with his 4th Ideal. Of course, Kaladin will also have increasing amounts of Windrunners under him and he’ll be able to talk about things with them as well. Talking of Helaran, I agree with other posters here that it seems likely that his background will still be relevant in some way. It doesn’t feel finished. I wonder how though - it’s not like Shallan necessarily needs to know more about the Skybreakers in general. The only idea that occurs is that the Skybreakers are mostly on Odium’s side now so could Shallan somehow disrupt that in the course of her investigations? It’ll probably be too late for existing Skybreakers but maybe they can do something about new/future recruits? I did have a few other ideas before reading all of OB but I don’t think they would be relevant now. The “bromance” between Kaladin and Adolin seems quite popular and that did progress in OB. Kaladin finally seems to be over his prejudice with lighteyes and regards Adolin as a real friend. I can imagine Kaladin relying on Adolin (and Shallan) to help him when he does stumble or have dark days. On Adolin’s side, he seemed to be somewhat jealous or envious of Kaladin, but I think he’s over that now, though he probably feels underpowered in general - I wonder if he’ll actively try to revive Maya or if reviving her will be more of an accident? Is the love triangle that never was completely over? Well, probably not completely. I don’t think Veil is completely won over by Adolin yet (though that could change) and Veil seems to enjoy teasing Kaladin. I don’t think Kaladin has seen Veil’s actual face so it’s possible that they could accidentally meet up without Kaladin realising who Veil is and cause a misunderstanding. I think the only chance of real romance between Kaladin and Shallan is if Adolin dies and I very much doubt Shallan would get over that quickly, so even if Brandon does go down such a route I wouldn’t expect anything until the second half of the Stormlight Archive. I know some readers are upset that Kaladin didn’t progress and wasn’t able to say the Words but it’s not like he’ll always be able to rely upon a timely progression to get out of sticky situations. After all, he has two left at maximum. Having characters occasionally fail is both more realistic and helps improve the tension. And helps make the progression more dramatic and rewarding. Perhaps surprisingly, Adolin had the least obvious difficulties of the characters who had numerous POVs. He was sort of an island of calm despite his troubles and helped provide some comic relief (particularly in Part 3). That being said, he still made progress in numerous areas. One thing that was troubling him at the end of WoR is how he fits into everything now. He feels out of his depth in the current situation and variously lacking, particularly once they entered Shadesmar. After his talk with Azure he eventually decided that it was okay for him to refuse to be king. I can imagine him dedicating himself to supporting Shallan on the global level problems but I think he would like to become a Radiant as well. He probably feels unworthy. Is he cracked enough? I think the events at the end of tWoK might well have been enough, as well as the stress that led to him killing Sadeas. The end result of him killing Sadeas was surprisingly drama free. Dalinar has always been hard on Adolin so he got off surprisingly lightly, though maybe if Dalinar hadn’t been through his character progression things would have been rather different. I was not surprised to see Adolin say that he doesn’t regret killing Sadeas and would do it again. I was also not surprised that Shallan wasn’t bothered about it. It’s hard to say if this’ll be plot relevant in the future. It’s possible that Adolin might well go public about it. It might cause some problems for Dalinar but with Ialai leaving Urithiru in disgrace (where to since Alethkar wouldn’t be an option?) the risk of revenge seems low. Probably better to get it out in the open. Adolin seems likely to revive Maya and this looks to be popular with readers. I think it’s likely that Dalinar uniting the three realms helped stimulate Maya’s revival (it helped Taln recover his sanity for a while it seems), though I think it’s really the combination of Adolin’s long term affection for his Blade, plus his meeting her in Shadesmar combined with Dalinar uniting the three realms is what allowed Adolin to feel Maya’s thoughts. I hope to see him try to apprentice to Lift since she’s the only known Edgedancer, and they should be able to figure out that his Blade belonged to an Edgedancer. Adolin’s other story arc focused around Shallan. It would have been nice to see his previous failed relationships addressed more directly. It’s hard to say if he is completely over this issue. My general impression is that his problems stemmed from him being not really Alethi-like due to the influence of his mother - he isn’t ambitious or aggressive and is self-deprecating (though not to the extent Shallan is). The Alethi are also quite stoic in public while Adolin prefers more physical contact (he’s much more likely to hug others than typical Alethi). Adolin takes after his mother enough that it causes stress on Dalinar after Evi’s death. Adolin probably learned to hold back from trying to hug others etc over the years but probably felt a bit stressed over it and probably didn’t like the colder attitude of typical Alethi lighteyed ladies and then his self-deprecating nature kicks in and he feels unworthy for reasons he doesn’t really understand and spoils the relationship. That’s sort-of how it feels though how it became so entrenched I’m not really sure. So basically, Shallan works for him because she’s more like his mother than the Alethi and he can relax and be himself around her - he doesn’t feel under pressure. However, along comes Kaladin and Adolin’s self-deprecating nature kicks in again though in a slightly different way to before. He basically feels inferior to Kaladin. Also, probably for the first time, he voices his feelings rather than semi-consciously sabotaging the relationship - he had already confessed about Sadeas to Shallan so probably felt more able to speak his mind to her and probably liked her too much to fall back to his normal methods. That’s my read at least. However, he was mistaken about Shallan’s attitude towards Kaladin and fortunately she had made her own breakthrough on realising her feelings and how to manage her personas already - if Adolin had offered to step away before that happened then the end result could have been rather different. I have no real idea what we might see in this regard in the next book. On the one hand I can’t imagine Adolin sabotaging the relationship after they marry but on the other hand it doesn’t really feel like he really got closure on his relationship issues - the paragraph above is just my best guess as the text itself isn’t that obvious. Moving on to Shallan’s story arcs, one thing I particularly feared about the whole love-triangle business is that Shallan might well come across as being cheap or indecisive, which we got a bit of but it wasn’t too bad. It’s rather hard being a fan of hers but OB was the first time for me where it was hard being a reader because of the persona business. The problems with her personas rather overshadowed the love-triangle issues, I feel. Speaking her Truth at the end of WoR hit Shallan hard - it was too much for her normal defense mechanisms to cope with. I thought it was likely that Shallan hated herself from WoR so I wasn’t not surprised that she stated this explicitly in OB - she has quite a lot in common with Teft. Jasnah’s return was more or less at the worst time because Shallan was in the midst of trying to figure out who she was and what she wanted, and trying to be Jasnah’s ward again complicated the issue. Shallan had several minor turning points and a few major ones. Adolin telling her to take better care of her men was a minor one, as was revealing herself as Veil to her underlings (it was more of a stepping stone to revealing her personas to Adolin). In chapter 68 Shallan tells Wit that power is the ability to make life better or worse for the people around you, but neglects herself. I again think this is typical of her - hating herself, she doesn’t actively seek happiness for herself (though doesn’t refuse it either). Jasnah fears losing her sanity/mind more than anything but Shallan would probably accept being crazy if it means that she can achieve the things she wants to (I was pretty sure of this in WoR already). Wit tries to encourage Shallan to enjoy life more but it doesn’t get through at the time. Which leads us to her next turning point when Veil fails and Wit has to pull out the stops in chapter 82 (The girl who stood up), which seems universally popular and for good reason (it was beautiful). Veil’s failure showed that her personas were fallible and were not a reliable way to escape pain. There probably wasn’t anyone other than Wit who could have helped Shallan. You could say that Shallan’s core problem is that she hates herself. I thought that one of the biggest risks of her using her personas was that others might like the personas more than her. This is also exactly why she absolutely needed to hear from Adolin that he wanted her (Shallan) as she is and not one of her personas, and that he also doesn’t mind if she’s a bit broken. Shallan needed to be able to like herself for her to want to be herself. For that she needed to be able to forgive herself at least somewhat. I’m not sure if she has really forgiven herself yet but she seems to be willing to try liking herself at the end - that’s the main payoff for “The girl who stood up”. The next turning point is in chapter 108 when Shallan openly admits to her problems with her personas (though without going into much detail) and Adolin admits to having killed Sadeas. Shallan is quite close to losing herself despite Wit’s advice but Adolin telling her “It’s obvious. I prefer the real you” etc gives her some real peace. To me, this chapter was the most important for Adolin and Shallan as a pair, rather than what happens later. However, Shallan isn’t stable yet. Perhaps the hardest turning point to understand is in chapter 121: Quote “Shallan . . .” Adolin said, taking her hand. “What?” Veil asked. “Something’s wrong.” “Of course it is,” Radiant said. “This fighting has left us all thoroughly worn out.” Adolin searched her eyes. She bled from one, to the other, and back. A moment of Veil. A moment of Radiant. Shallan peeking through— Adolin’s hand tightened around her own. Shallan’s breath caught. There, she thought. That’s the one. That’s the one I am. He knows. Adolin relaxed, and for the first time she noticed how ragged his clothing was. She raised her safehand to her lips. “Adolin, are you all right?” So basically, Shallan is shifting between her personas on the inside almost constantly and somehow Adolin can tell (I presume she’s not using Lightweaving on herself at this point). Also, while she is shifting between personas, when she stumbles upon Shallan, Adolin somehow notices this fact. This is rather curious and hard to explain but Shallan realising this does stabilise Shallan. Is this a tiny bit of Radiant power leaking through in Adolin perhaps? Is Adolin somehow feeling the changes in Connection as she shifts personas or something? Anyway, at the end of this section, Veil takes over again in reaction to seeing Kaladin but this time Shallan takes control: Quote She shoved Radiant and Veil aside, and when they resisted, she stuffed them into the back part of her brain. They were not her. She was occasionally them. But they were not her. After this, we don’t see Shallan accidentally leak between personas again. She is in control. A little later Adolin offers to step back but Shallan doesn’t let him and at the end Adolin repeats that he only wants her (Shallan) and not her personas or any potential persona. Note that Shallan actually pulls some passionspren here for the first time (it’s also rare for her to pull “positive” spren). After this, Shallan is even more clingy than before. She seems worried that without him she might start becoming unstable again. With regards to Shallan’s personas being her or not, there’s been some discussion but it feels to me that they could be better thought of as distinct - they share some things but not others. For example, in chapter 67 Veil thinks “Storming lighteyes” at one point which is not something that Shallan or Radiant would ever feel. I think this is ultimately why Shallan will be able to use her personas as a tool. She’ll be able to consider problems from multiple angles much more deeply than otherwise (she was already doing this to some degree in WoR). It’s a shame we don’t see more of Shallan’s thoughts in the book about marrying Adolin. There is a brief reference in chapter 53 from Jasnah’s POV where Navani tells Shallan (somewhat ironically) “But in these uncertain times, surely you wish for stability”. The general impression is that there has been ongoing discussions between Shallan and Navani about marriage but Shallan has been resisting a bit. Well anyway, stability is certainly what Shallan needs, in more ways than one. It would be easy to claim that they’re marrying too early but they both need each other - the world is not at peace, Adolin needs help as he’s about to become highprince finally and Shallan certainly needs stability on multiple levels. Is it too soon? Well, I could flip it around and ask what would be the benefit of delaying it? I had thought after the end of Part 1 that Adolin and Shallan only really needed to make one extra step - to be willing to reveal their darker sides to each other. They were very comfortable in each other’s company, Adolin was willing to rely on Shallan for support, Shallan was getting to understand Adolin quite well (neither Dalinar, Navani or Jasnah showed any sign of noticing the hints that Adolin was feeling stressed from having killed Sadeas) and so on. I felt that they really did need to take that extra step but it was quite hard for both of them, unsurprisingly. It’s not easy to reveal such things to someone you care deeply about. But they did it. The wedding probably feels more hasty than it is due to the limited foreshadowing and how quickly the days pass in the final chapters. They’re not the only characters who are having to grow up quickly either - everyone is, really. So, sure, there will likely be some stumbles along the way but I think it’ll work out without too much trouble unless the plot intervenes in a heavy way. The other question is, how stable is Shallan now? I think many readers would feel that the mere continued existence of her personas is proof that she is unstable but I always felt that she would keep Veil and Radiant longer term. I think it’s likely that this is a Lightweaver trait - perhaps they are supposed to be “differently normal” (their Ideals are very distinct after all). I also thought it would be very unlikely for Brandon to discard such a fun plot device. Maybe you could say that she has reached a different kind of stability, one that humans cannot normally reach. For Shallan at least and perhaps most Lightweavers, her ability to accurately draw and recreate others is based on Connection. So she has a strong Connection to 1000s of people, which is not normal. Combined with her background, this probably makes it easier than normal to lose herself. The worst state we saw Shallan in was immediately after the battle when she had actively used far more Connection than ever before and she was incredibly tired (also note that each time one of her creations was cut she felt pain, so the cumulative effect of all that must have been horrendous). I think she would have recovered somewhat naturally afterwards without Adolin but it’s also possible that if/when she does similar things in future that she might suffer from a similar backlash again, though probably not nearly so bad as she has become stronger. I have argued before that Shallan tends to build up Connection with others over time. She is flexible and forgiving but she doesn’t always get on with others quickly - Jasnah took time, Kaladin took time, etc. However, she got along with Adolin very quickly and increasingly got closer and closer and built up more and more Connection. Throughout OB we see Shallan being very close with Adolin and very affectionate, often cuddling with him. We even see Shallan start to feel jealousy in OB, something she didn’t show in WoR, when she sees and interacts with Adolin’s previous girlfriends. At first in WoR, Adolin hesitates to respond to Shallan’s physical affection but this doesn’t last long and he has gotten comfortable with initiating intimacy as well. We never see Shallan be like this with Kaladin and she never really approaches him. It’s not stated explicitly but it seems that Shallan is deliberately being mean at times to Kaladin due to him killing Helaran and also somewhat because Veil enjoys teasing Kaladin (due to his strong reactions). While Kaladin and Shallan have shared some close moments I never saw those particular moments as being romantic by themselves - it could have become that way in future but that never happened as Kaladin never approached Shallan that way and Shallan never approached Kaladin that way. Instead, perhaps it’s Shallan’s strong Connection to Adolin that ultimately saved her from her personas - with him she feels comforted and at peace and less likely to be distracted by other things (in their own little world, basically). Him being able to “recognise” her as Shallan and her realising that helped connect them strongly and helped Shallan to push aside the influence of her personas. Adolin seeing Shallan’s personas as distinct (rather than lumped together) is what allows him to see Shallan herself as an individual. In other words, he can filter out what is Shallan and what is not. So he connects to Shallan herself, first and foremost and not to her personas. If Adolin had treated all of Shallan’s personas equally I don’t think this would have happened and Shallan wouldn’t have stabilised. Well, the above is certainly speculative. This is my general impression. It’s a shame it feels so vague on the page. But this is ever the problem with interpreting Shallan - you have to read deeper. 6
Guest Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) This is so much, that I will just quote passages I want to comment on. 56 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: Essentially, he wishes that he could do what he thinks Shallan is doing but he doesn’t really get it and it would probably be too hard for Shallan to explain it properly. He doesn’t take Shallan seriously when she says that she’s crazy (which is why Shallan doesn't consider what she does to be impressive). But even if she could explain it, Shallan is on the Lightweaver path and Kaladin is on the Windrunner path - they aren’t the same and what works for one probably wouldn’t work for the other. Shallan wouldn’t be able to take Kaladin’s approach either (and still be a Lightweaver). Each path has different costs and benefits. Shallan doesn't even make an effort. I find it extremely unfair to just assume, that Kaladin wouldn't understand. Shallan completely misunderstands him and judges him for it. 56 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: So basically, Shallan is shifting between her personas on the inside almost constantly and somehow Adolin can tell (I presume she’s not using Lightweaving on herself at this point). Also, while she is shifting between personas, when she stumbles upon Shallan, Adolin somehow notices this fact. This is rather curious and hard to explain but Shallan realising this does stabilise Shallan. Is this a tiny bit of Radiant power leaking through in Adolin perhaps? Is Adolin somehow feeling the changes in Connection as she shifts personas or something? Anyway, at the end of this section, Veil takes over again in reaction to seeing Kaladin but this time Shallan takes control: I don't think that Connection building is inherent to Radiants. That is something all humans do. 56 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: I thought that one of the biggest risks of her using her personas was that others might like the personas more than her. This is also exactly why she absolutely needed to hear from Adolin that he wanted her (Shallan) as she is and not one of her personas, and that he also doesn’t mind if she’s a bit broken. Shallan needed to be able to like herself for her to want to be herself. For that she needed to be able to forgive herself at least somewhat. I’m not sure if she has really forgiven herself yet but she seems to be willing to try liking herself at the end - that’s the main payoff for “The girl who stood up”. Adolin didn't fall in love with Shallan. He fell in love with the mask she always wore in front of him during WoR and OB. Kaladin knows the true Shallan. The broken Shallan. He recognized her down in the chasms. He knows, who she really is. Shallan, as she is now, is incomplete. She split herself into Radiant, Veil and "Shallan". Adolin doesn't know a fracture of what Shallan really is. Shallan doesn't need to distinguish herself from Veil and Radiant, but accept that she is all of them. That is also the quintessence of what Wit meant. 56 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: Adolin seeing Shallan’s personas as distinct (rather than lumped together) is what allows him to see Shallan herself as an individual. In other words, he can filter out what is Shallan and what is not. So he connects to Shallan herself, first and foremost and not to her personas. If Adolin had treated all of Shallan’s personas equally I don’t think this would have happened and Shallan wouldn’t have stabilised. But Veil and Radiant are parts of Shallan. They are not different persons. This is so important. Alters always have some connection to their host personality and it is important to keep this in mind, when interacting with them. Adolin does the opposite. But what I find even more confusing is... why does Shallan even become Veil in front of Adolin, if she is so in control like you suggest? Simple, she isn't. And she's already falling back to old habits of hiding behind her personas. That is all combined with the fact, that Veil still seems to see herself as individual from Shallan. 56 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: I had thought after the end of Part 1 that Adolin and Shallan only really needed to make one extra step - to be willing to reveal their darker sides to each other. They didn't. Adolin still doesn't know the real Shallan and she seems to have no inclination to show the real Shallan to him. In fact, I think being in this relationship with Adolin will bring another hurdle regarding that for her. Hell, she can't even tell him about the least worst thing, the Ghostbloods. She still hides behind Veil for that - and does it happily, while building up "Shallan" as that flawless wife, that Adolin fell in love with. She needs to forgive herself for her past. I see Adolin as a hindrance for that. Also, Adolin never said, that he wants Shallan with flaws and all. He just said, that he wants the Shallan he recognized, which isn't the broken Shallan. It is a mask. A mask Shallan seems to be completely willing to provide to him. Edited November 19, 2017 by SLNC
Ailvara Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 I just started to wonder, what Shallan's next truths could be. That cannot be just any deep truths - they should be harder than the last ones. Harder than being her mother's killer. Now it won't be easy to beat and I'd guess something going very south with Adolin would do the trick. 1
Guest Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Ailvara said: I just started to wonder, what Shallan's next truths could be. That cannot be just any deep truths - they should be harder than the last ones. Harder than being her mother's killer. Now it won't be easy to beat and I'd guess something going very south with Adolin would do the trick. I think it will have something to do with forgiving herself for killing her mother and father. Realizing, that the family downfall is not her fault. But for that she must confront herself (that weak, wretched girl that is the real Shallan, she says it herself) and her past. Something she has now taken plenty of steps backwards from again.
Nef Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) @kari-no-sugata I kinda get what you mean when you say that interactions between Shallan and Kaladin weren't overtly romantic but only if we're talking about the physical attraction type romantic. I felt the chasm scene between Shallan and Kaladin was about an attraction on a deeper emotional level whereby they each recognised the depth of another's character. From then on I would say its pretty clear that they are both physically attracted to one another, which we get from Shallan's inner monolgues and Kaldin's interactions with Syl. Regarding emotional connection, I really hope we get another scene with Shallan and Kaladin like that because I think they both see in one another attributes that would make them a stronger person without recongising that its actually their weakness as well. What i mean is, on one hand we see that Kaladin views in Shallan an ability to do what needs to be done without letting traumatic experiences impede her ability to function. We already see that Kaladin's emotions can cause him to operate on subdued level or even completely freeze up. However he obviously doesn't recognise the fact that she achieves this by over compartmentalizing to the point she's splitting her personalities/completely suppressing her feelings. On the other hand we have Shallan attracted to Kaladin's passion and strength of emotion and I think its because she wishes she would be able to function without suppressing her feelings. I think she recognises that Kaladin's passion is what drives him towards all his noble actions without knowing that the same strength of emotion causes him to second guess himself. It seemed like we were going to get a heart to heart in Shadesmar when Kaladin approached Shallan for a conversation; Kaladin was hinting at his depression and Shallan could have let Kaladin know that she functions via unhealthy compartmentalization. And maybe that could have led them the conclusion that a maybe a balance between their two mental states is what they want, but alas Shallan was not ready and we may never get a connection like we had in the chasms. Edited November 19, 2017 by Nef 10
firegazer Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 Somewhere up in that long thread, I passed over the utterly h-o-r-r-i-f-y-i-n-g suggestion that Shallan might become a mother by next book. God please NO. If there is any sense in BS at all, I hope he doesn’t touch this idea with a ten foot pole, for so many reasons. 1) She’s BROKEN by DEFINITION. Her current state of mind is not conducive to parenting, which means there would either have to be a deeply uncomfortable glossing over that which makes zero sense or an in-depth plot involving her feeling/being screwed up toward her kid which I do not want to read done by a male author, with all due respect. I say this as someone with bipolar people in my family, who DID have complicated relationships with us. Do not. 2) Had you asked me after book 2 whether I would trust BS to write a young woman transitioning into motherhood, I would have done an iffy “ehhhh” based on how well he has handled Navani and Jasnah (an established mother who still has real character and interests outside her motherhood and a female character with zero sexuality). After this book, though, his habit of twisting character arcs and forcing them toward happy arranged marriage tropes has convinced me that he’s not yet able to separate himself from certain overly-cheerful religious(?) attitudes toward arranged marriage that do a disservice to his characters — especially the women. I do not trust that this will not show itself again with regard to pregnancy/motherhood, forcing Shallan — a character I really find fascinating and complicated — into a flat interpretation of blossoming motherhood where the child takes over her character and “saves” her from things she should be sorting out herself. Lastly, if Shallan gets a kid and suddenly stops heroing because “oh no what about my child at home” — a not uncommon trope for both male AND female authors — I will throw the no doubt brick of a book at the wall and I will then have a hole in my wall. 3) She’s what, 20? I get that this is high fantasy, but guess what? No part of me fantasizes about being forced to have a kid at twenty due to primogeniture laws. It’s not fun for me. I understand that some women may disagree, but damnation, at least let her have a few more years of being an awesome Knight Radiant before hobbling her like that. Basically the only Shallan with kid I would accept is Adolin in the mother role, full stop, with Shallan showing obvious signs of mental problems over the whole thing, which are not forced to be solved and are accepted as part of the character and her relationship with her kid. As much as I would hazard to call BS my favourite author, for a whole slew of reasons, I do not think I trust him enough yet in this particular area of writing to want to read his version of that, so I’d rather he err on the side of not giving Shallan a kid, unless it happens between books 5-6. Pregnancy and motherhood are MUCH more difficult, complicated subjects than most authors acknowledge, and I honestly wish more of them would give those character aspects the respect and gravity they deserve, especially when you’re dealing with characters currently going through mental health issues. Off soapbox. Please god don’t let this happen. That is all. 13
Guest Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) @firegazer So much this. Neither Adolin nor Shallan are ready to become parents. Though I can't wait for Navani to tell her to "provide an heir"... I really can't wait. Another reason why I think the wedding was too early. They will now have expectations imposed on them. With Adolin being highprince and all. Edited November 19, 2017 by SLNC
firegazer Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 Oddly, I think Adolin would be just fine as a Dad. In fact, given how physically affectionate, emotional, and attached he’s been described — the idea that he takes after his mother instead of his father in a lot of ways — I think he would end up in a more active parenting role than whatever woman he had a kid with. But I don’t want to read mother Shallan. At all. It actually gives me a cold sweat just thinking about all the ways that could go horribly wrong. 3
Egomere Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 @ Firegazer and SLNC Yes I really don't think Shallan is at all ready to be a mother - she's just not in the right headspace yet. Also unless there is a decent time gap between 3 and 4 (not sure if there is) I think Adolin and Shallan having a child would be the wrong move for all of them considering what they are going to have to be doing against Odium (running around, fighting, plotting - remember the Ghostbloods have charged Shallan to capture Sja-anet (I think). Not conducive to capturing unmade whilst pregnant. 1
Void Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 Does anyone else find that Veil becoming drinking buddies with Adolin strange? I get that Veil likes her wine... But I always thought her personas show up when Shallan herself can't handle the situation. So I don't understand why she's using Veil around Adolin. Is it foreshadowing? Or maybe I'm over thinking this. 6
Harbour he/him Posted November 19, 2017 Author Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Well, if to look at first half of SA as a single book, it will have 3 acts. Hero does good in the first act and beginning of the second act, then he fails in the end of the second act, then he overcomes himself in the third act. I believe, if to put Shallan and her raltionships in that perspective, that WoK, WoR and most of OB are her 1st and 2nd acts, and ending of the OB+Book#4 will be the end of 2nd act and beginning of the 3rd act, and thats where the things will get ugly or bad. I think the same will come to her relationships too. There gonna be Epic Fail, and it is yet unseen. Or, we witnessed it in the end of the OB, just dont know this yet. Edited November 19, 2017 by Harbour 2
Starla Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 @kari-no-sugata Thank you for writing out your thoughts on Shallan’s character arc in such detail. I have been a fan of hers through most of the first two books but I struggled with her character in Oathbringer from part 2 through the end. I know you have previously written some well-thought out discourses on her character and I specifically looked forward to reading your thoughts on her progress in this book. Though your post is quite positive on her progress, I am still not feeling good about her mental state at the end of the book. I think the big key with Shallan is that her personalities are her, they are not separate entities. When Veil or Radiant thinks or feels something, where does that thought or feeling come from? In the scene before the wedding the illusions are external and she is having a three-way conversation with them. Who does she think is talking when they speak? She separates herself from their thoughts and actions, but it is all coming from some compartmentalized part of her own mind. These are her thoughts and actions. Her compartments seem to be separated even more distinctly at the end of the book than they were at the beginning. Not to mention that she is still having blackouts in the later parts of the book. I think she should be moving toward integration, not separation. I also do not feel certain that the “Shallan” that Adolin sensed in the hand holding scene is true Shallan. I think the true Shallan is a combination of all of her personalities. I believe this is what Wit was trying to tell her in Chapter 82. She is not a single personality with multiple fake personas. The true Shallan is an amalgam of all of her personas combined. They each represent a facet of a larger gem that she has not yet discovered. I think the full Shallan was probably shattered in childhood, with different pieces locked away into different areas of her mind. Most have remained hidden since, though some have manifested as her different illusions since she began lightweaving. I think her work now is to uncover those pieces and put them back together, but she has barely even begun that journey. The Shallan Adolin has married is one of those facets, not the full person. I don't think we've seen the real Shallan yet. I agree wholeheartedly with @firegazer, the idea of Shallan having a child at this point is scary, so I hope we don’t go there. We already have little Gavinor in the cute toddler role, as well as baby Oroden. They can grow up to participate in the second half of the series rather than having our main characters dealing with pregnancy and parenthood in the middle of a desolation. Also, you mention that Kaladin is not yet ready for a relationship because he is busy and focused on his work. I don’t agree with this. He works well with others and is highly caring and empathetic. I think he would do well with a partner who can work alongside him and who has his back. Perhaps a more extroverted or battle-oriented radiant who can go out with him in the field, like the male/female radiant duo in Dalinar’s vision. I don’t expect him to be sitting around Urithiru remaining stagnant. He’ll want to be out helping people. I can see a romantic relationship succeeding in this scenario, more so than a stay at home wife who is doing clerical work and bookkeeping and feeling left behind. Your text also states that Shallan and Adolin’s friendship could help Kaladin with his problems. I agree that mutually supportive friendships are healthy for everyone. What you didn’t mention is that he could also help them, especially Shallan. Kaladin is very grounded and focused on solving external problems, like helping others. He feels strong emotions for people and doesn't hide from them. He’s been forced to learn how to face his feelings. Sometimes it overwhelms him, but it hasn’t killed him yet and he always bounces back. I think this is a trait Shallan will need to learn at some point in her healing process. I hope that somewhere down the road she can see that Kaladin is a valuable resource for learning the skills she has been pushing away for so long, but as of the end of Oathbringer she hasn’t realized this. This can come through a deep and trusting friendship that doesn't need to be romantic. Finally regarding your comment about Helaran’s shards, they belong to Rock now. He killed Amaram, he gets the shards. He gave Oathbringer to Dalinar. He might decide to give the blade to Shallan, or he might give them to his people, who have been trying to win shards for centuries. He said in WOK that whoever brings shards back to the Horneater Peaks becomes king. I’m not sure if Rock wants to be a king, but he will probably want to help his people if it is that important to them. And there I’ve gone and written a Wall of Text again. 8
PhineasGage Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 Wow guys and gals. I go away for a day and this thread exploded. So much to catch up on Anyway I'd like to add my thoughts and comments. Mainly because I can, so I'm going to address comments I have feelings on since I last posted (yesterday!) except @kari-no-sugata 's massive and deeply thought out treatise on OB because honestly I feel it needs a longer sit down and thought process put in before I even begin to comment on it. So then, here we go! On 11/18/2017 at 3:48 PM, Starla said: @PhineasGage There is a WOB on the subject of Kaladin's parentage. Lirin and Hesina are his bio-parents. (Link) That said, I think there is something interesting in Hesina's lineage. My guess is that she has some lighteyed family members. I'll be curious to learn more about her at some point. Awesome, thank you for this - I forgot to thank you before so apologies for that but this, despite kiling a pet theory, was very useful to know On 11/18/2017 at 4:37 PM, kari-no-sugata said: Regarding timelines: https://brandonsanderson.com/oathbringers-timeline/ So OB is basically 2 Roshar months. I presume that includes the epilogue with Wit, which is "weeks after the fall of Kholinar". The last scene with Dalinar is just after the wedding. It would be interesting to know just how much time passed since the end battle. In Taravangian's POV it's 8 days. Shallan's POV saying the wedding is a week away could easily be several days or even weeks after that. Anyway, let's say her wedding is at least 15 days (3 Roshar weeks) after the end battle. Fab, thank you. I love having this kind of data available to me to reference so this is very useful to have. Greatly appreciated. On 11/18/2017 at 4:55 PM, PlanetReelo said: I'm not so sure that shalladin is a possibility anymore. I remember BS saying in an interview that he wants his books to be the sort that he would be proud of his children reading. And whilst that can be interpreted as excluding scenes of a sexual nature, I think it may also mean that he is likely to intergrate his mormon beliefs into the book more readily. And it's my understanding that the sanctity of marriage is important in his religion, and therefore he is unlikely to break shadolin apart now that they've wed. And adultery is most certainly a grave sin, and I can't see BS debasing his characters like that. I see what you mean but I have to disagree with you a little for a couple of reasons. Firstly, as a person who presumably believes a single omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, he is doing a great job of writing an entire universe that does not seem to have any evidence of a specific analogue. He has multiple characters taking on the roles of "god" or "gods" in their specific locales - eg Honor and Cultivation, but even Adonalsium may not have been "God" as an analogue given how Wit seems to have regarded him/her/it. I seem to remember that he felt uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality in the past, but now has an openly gay couple in his secondary characters. I would like to think that if he wants his children to be proud it would be because he addresses multiple, potentially difficult situations that encompass the genuine difficulties that come with simply being human. People deal with all kinds of problems every day, and the best writers humanise their characters by making them face ordinary problems as deal (or not) with them, even if the environment they are in is unusual. I do agree that adultery seems unlikely in the Shadolin case, but not because he won't write it. He's already hinted at the possibility of something like that between Navani and Gavilar. I think if there are to be rifts between Adolin and Shallan it will be because of inherent flaws within their relationship, not because of a 3rd person. Those flaws would likely manifest themselves before adultery even became a possibility. On 11/18/2017 at 5:45 PM, Discofrish said: Oh no, I love Adolin, I couldn't deal with him dying aggghhhh this is frustrating! On one hand, Adolin+Shallan is not a pairing I would say Brandon would be satisfied with, on another he doesn't like character deaths, especially mains. But Adolin as a character is frustrating too- what is he? Hes the stronger Kholin son- but Renarin is becoming much stronger too, now. He's a true warrior, hes a shadow of his father. Does he have a true place, like the others? He gives me (mistborn era 1 spoilers) He doesnt mind killing main characters. He killed off Vin and Elend. He killed off Lightsong in Warbreaker. He killed off Kelsier and quite alot of his crew in the Mistborn trilogy. And no, Kelsier was dead for the purposes of that story so I'm not going to allow his Resurrection to be considered as an out here. The characters in that story thought he was dead and had to get on with it. We only found out he hadnt passed on long after the trilogy was completed. Hell, Eshonai is dead, she's pretty main and is possibly the flashback candidate for book 5. Adolin dying is definitely a possibility. Honestly, I don't want him to but if he has to I'd rather he died on the right side than accidentally goes all Odium on us. On 11/18/2017 at 6:03 PM, Nef said: What scares me though is imagining how BS is suppose to pull off a continuation of the love triangle after faking a conclusion in OB. It'll take masterful writing and a lot of bravery to make it work given how contentious it is having a love triangle in the first place. You don't have to. I think we as a thread are oversimplifying the triangle aspect. This never was a true love triangle because the conflict lay within Shallan, not between her two potential love interests. This may continue despite the marriage. Indeed Kaladin is certain to step back now - more than he already had (he had gone out of way to be a bit standoffish I think during OB) so there will be no conflict between Adolin and Kaladin. And Adolin would have done the same if Kaladin had been chosen. That doesnt mean there wont be development in the relationships. Indeed if there isn't then Sanderson isn't the writer we all think he is. This arc is complete, but realistically after a year of marriage (given that book is rumoured to be set 1 year after the end of OB) Shallan and Adolin will have got over the honeymoon period and hopefully be less saccharine. The interesting part will be finding out if they actually have anything in common. 19 hours ago, Egomere said: When combined with the fact that Adolin 'recognises Shallan persona' rather than Veil or Radient as the deciding factor it seems to completely ignore the fact that Kaladin has never treated her differently or thought of her as anything other than Shallan WHICHEVER guise she has been wearing - a much more balanced approach than Adolins teaching Radient how to fight with Shardblade and Veil becoming a drinking partner and him treating all three differently. It feels like a complete diservice to poor old Kaladin (who I do want to find someone like Syl keeps encouraging him to). When Shallan wants to be Shallan, poor old Kaladin has only ever treated her as Shallan (and all three as the same person) and it's Shallan whose been seperating. It makes me worry that she is definately going to have a massive head crash late book 4 when she finally processes the advice good old Hoid gave her (The girl who looked up). This is so important. Kaladin doesn't "recognise" Shallan because he never acknowledges that Veil and Radiant aren't Shallan. Because, of course, they are. I am also very worried about Shallan's progression. Indeed I suspect she will struggle as others progress around her and she stays static. She is not likely to take these well. Pattern will want her to uncover truths but whilst she is able to function adequately I am not sure that he will push her further - particularly if she is seemingly happy, because she doesnt need plate to be a functional KR if all she ends up doing is Kholin accounts, learning with Jasnah and working the oathgates. Jasnah will likely try to push her a bit but she also has other concerns now that she is queen. 11 hours ago, SLNC said: @DeployParachute Well, if Kaladin told Ka that it also was from B4... Some of Bridge Four was present when the Boots scene happened. If anything this was the result of Kaladin saying something to Ka, which I could completely understand. He might feel acceptance, but I'd also understand if he now wants to keep the relationship more professional and less personal, out of respect for Adolin. Us men can be strange like that. I completely agree. Men have a tendency to step back so as not to push in on someone else's 'territory'. Not a great use of the word but certainly something I've encountered. A married woman is a complete no go area for Kaladin. He's withdrawing, and in fact has never really opened himself up to the possibility of Shallan because she was always betrothed to Adolin. Indeed it is Syl's belief that the betrothal was less important. Kal is only going to get stricter with himself now they are actually married. 7 hours ago, DimChatz said: Alright, here's what started bothering me today. The triangle is a Chekhov's gun, which is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed; elements should not appear to make "false promises" by never coming into play(according to Wikipedia). They took that gun on stage, toyed a bit with it and then shoved it backstage. Why were all those teases and hints, big and small, needed if it leads nowhere? I guess I'm just frustrated, and maybe a little bias and, well, vitriol is bleeding in my words but damnation that the most strong I've felt about being unsastisfied with a conclusion ( I guess thats a good thing from the creator's viewpoint? The book makes me feel strongly even if it heavily disagrees with me?), and the more I think about it the more I err on the side of all the stuff I see here and agree with are the result of my confirmation bias. This is exactly how I felt after my first read-through. I felt much better after my second, but still somewhat let down. I have a 58 page essay I wrote (I have no life) that delves into the evidence for Shalladin vs Shadolin in WoR that I used to crystallise my feelings and is the reason I ended up on the Shalladin ship. As I was reading (and re-reading for that matter) I still saw more Shalladin that Shadolin but I'm definitely going to have to go back and reassess. When I'm less annoyed 7 hours ago, SLNC said: I don't think it is the author's intention to elicit negative emotions. I wish to draw attention to Wit's epilogue ; "All great art is hated". 4 hours ago, Ailvara said: I just finished watching Battlestar Galactica for the second time and it hit me really hard how much this reminds me of Lee and Starbuck. And boy, wasn't that heartbreaking from start to finish. Oh my god, I cannot even..... the Apollo/Starbuck stryline has got to be one of the most haunting and depressing story arcs I've ever seen. Though, to be fair, I think it happened in part because the writers didn't have a plan for the entire storyline, they made it up as they went to quite an extent. They didnt want to lose the 'will they? won't they?' element so just kept dragging it on. I understand that BS has a pretty detailed plan for Stormlight so hopefully that isn't going to be an issue here, even if he hasnt fully pinned down the specific reltionship arcs for each character. 8
kari-no-sugata Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Ailvara said: I just started to wonder, what Shallan's next truths could be. That cannot be just any deep truths - they should be harder than the last ones. Harder than being her mother's killer. Now it won't be easy to beat and I'd guess something going very south with Adolin would do the trick. I've been all over the shop on this one. Here's my current thinking. Based on OB, I think that whatever Shallan's Final Ideal is will be a deep truth and could easily break her. Here's an interesting quote from chapter 77: Quote “Of course not. You’re probably a squire—I think most orders had them. You might become something more. I think Shallan was making illusions off and on for years before she said the oaths. But then, it’s all kind of muddled in her head. I had my sword when I was very young, and . . .” This seems to be accurate. The interesting bit is Shallan making illusions off and on "for years" before saying the oaths. By this account, Shallan might have been Lightweaving since a much younger age than I had previously thought. I had been thinking that it was a few months between her starting to use Lightweaving and her confrontation with her mother. Instead, it looks like it was years of minor and infrequent Lightweaving with the oaths coming much later. The impression we get from Pattern's comments in WoR is that Shallan was already "cracked" before he ever met her, though spren and bonding feels quite weird as Syl seems to have been able to "feel" Kaladin well in advance (and from the Cognitive Realm). Either way, based on Kaladin's experience in tWoK, it would have been impossible for Shallan to Lightweave before Pattern came to the Physical Realm. So I think Pattern would have had to have been in the Physical Realm while Shallan was making illusions off and on for years. This also suggests that the Cryptics were way ahead of the other Radiant spren for some reason (ignoring the Skybreaker spren as a special case who never stopped bonding). We don't currently know when Shallan said the first oath but Pattern has confirmed that she has already said it. According to Pattern in WoR, Shallan was able to do sound in the past so based on Shallan's ability to do sound as a child (something Shallan completely failed to do until OB), I think we can say that a young Shallan had probably reached the 4th Ideal already. Which would also mean that Shallan has two different 4th Ideals - one said when younger and one said at the end of WoR. We don't know any of the Truths that she spoke as a child and I've not seen any hints in OB. Taking a slightly different approach: Pattern said he was the one chosen to be sent by the Cryptics. In other words, it was organised. My general impression is that spren often chose who to bond before properly entering the Physical Realm. So did the Cryptics choose little Shallan in advance as a group? That would be interesting if true. It would also be interesting to know if that is relatively normal for them or not. I also wonder about Pattern - why was he chosen? There's been some hints that he's not like a normal Cryptic and this difference is put down to his bond to Shallan. But what if there's more? For example, could he be a particularly young Cryptic? If so, maybe he chose a particularly young human to bond intentionally? Or maybe he wanted to bond a young human so that he could understand them more, having seen more of their life? Anyway, based on our limited knowledge of all this to date there seems to be a bunch of secrets in Shallan's younger years that still need to be revealed. What "cracked" her soul originally? What were her Truths as a child? The implications so far is that there's some nasty secret lurking inside Shallan that would be extremely hard for her to deal with. This might not be correct but that's my current impression at least. I have no idea how it could play out. For example, Shallan might be in a situation where she needs the Final Ideal in order to achieve her objectives. But, based on her experience in OB she would know that there would be a cost in doing so. So either she has to be faced with something so important that her desire to solve the problem outweighs her pain, or she has to prepare well in advance because she would need time to recover before really attempting the task. For example, to use your example of Adolin getting involved, let's say he's in some kind of pinch and Shallan wants to save him but cannot without the Final Ideal - so perhaps she forces herself to rush her final truth, puts aside her pain temporarily (maybe using a persona), saves Adolin and then collapses in a heap afterwards and takes a long time to recover. When I'd just read Part 1 of OB, I had wondered if Shallan would face Re-Shepir again at the end of the book and wondered if she might know this in advance and so would intentionally swear her Final Ideal at the end of Part 3 to give her time (Part 4) to recover. Well, that turned out to be wrong but we might get something like that in the next book or two. With regards to the details of Shallan's Final Oath, I'm betting that her brothers will be important somehow, though probably indirectly. In WoR (and even tWoK), there's scattered hints that Shallan knew she had killed her mother well in advance of her speaking the truth at the end. I've not yet seen anything like that in OB. If we start to see such hints fairly early on in the next book then it would probably be foreshadowing of her Final Ideal (her last and deepest Truth). For example, one idea I've had for Shallan (without any basis at all) is that perhaps she had an identical twin and that twin died long ago but the Shallan we know got mixed up with that twin - ie the real Shallan actually died and her twin assumed her place (by accident or design). If Shallan's brothers happen to name-drop the other twin in passing then that could stir memories within Shallan. But there's all sorts of possibilities. 1
Harbour he/him Posted November 19, 2017 Author Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) In interpreted that hand holding scene differently. Shallan Adolin and most people see isnt "real" personality, while Veil and Radiant are fakes. Shallan isnt the only real personality, if to put the words better. Shallan is one of the three personalities that real Shallan consist of. And when she changed her personalities before Adolin, Adolin finally caught the Shallan, but not the Real One (because the Real One is Shallan+Veil+Radiant combination) and she fixed on this personality. Quote Adolin searched her eyes. She bled from one, to the other, and back. A moment of Veil. A moment of Radiant. Shallan peeking through— Adolin’s hand tightened around her own. Shallan’s breath caught. There, she thought. That’s the one. That’s the one I am. He knows. Veil, then Radiant, then Shallan - finally, the one Adolin knows. Just look at Shallan' choice of words! Quote Thats the one. He knows. Its like someone else finally picked up the personality appropriate for Adolin to see. Its not real Shallan he saw. To me it seemed like the real Shallan tried hard to show Adolin personality she think would be more appropriate for him to see. Shallan he knows. But not Shallan she is. Edited November 19, 2017 by Harbour 2
PhineasGage Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Starla said: I also do not feel certain that the “Shallan” that Adolin sensed in the hand holding scene is true Shallan. I think the true Shallan is a combination of all of her personalities. I believe this is what Wit was trying to tell her in Chapter 82. She is not a single personality with multiple fake personas. The true Shallan is an amalgam of all of her personas combined. They each represent a facet of a larger gem that she has not yet discovered. I think the full Shallan was probably shattered in childhood, with different pieces locked away into different areas of her mind. Most have remained hidden since, though some have manifested as her different illusions since she began lightweaving. I think her work now is to uncover those pieces and put them back together, but she has barely even begun that journey. The Shallan Adolin has married is one of those facets, not the full person. I don't think we've seen the real Shallan yet. (Emphasis mine) Storms I got shivers just reading this. This is exactly my sentiment too. Think about how often her brothers say things like "when did you get so clever" etc. I have finally managed to go through @kari-no-sugata's very thought provoking piece and I made loads of notes however rather than addressing each point I'd like to highlight the major differences that seem to have arisen, the major one being whether Shallan is inherently separate from Veil and Radiant or not. This seems to be something that is developing as a divide (appropriately I suppose) between those who feel Shallan has 1) made the right choice, and 2) that she is getting better from those of us who feel the opposite. Both sides are somewhat using the evidence to support their side of the argument, which is perfectly understandable. As is likely to be clear to anyone who has read this thread, I am firmly in the Shallan is getting worse camp. I also happen to feel she made the wrong choice. Not by choosing Adolin over Kaladin (although frankly I find Adolin completely bland as a potential love interest for anyone, let alone Shallan) but by choosing anyone but herself at all. I think this therefore impacts hugely on my attitudes towards @kari-no-sugata's comment above, because we disagree on this fundamental point. Whilst the comment was well sourced, well thought out and well organised, I'm afraid to say I could agree with very little of it in principle, despite seeing the value of each argument. I believe @SLNC put many of my thoughts down in a more succinct manner than I could so I would definitely refer to that. There are a couple of areas I would like to comment on though; 6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: The other question is, how stable is Shallan now? I think many readers would feel that the mere continued existence of her personas is proof that she is unstable but I always felt that she would keep Veil and Radiant longer term. I think it’s likely that this is a Lightweaver trait - perhaps they are supposed to be “differently normal” (their Ideals are very distinct after all). I disagree. I also personally dislike the idea of being "differently normal". "Normal" is a huge breadth of variation in human behaviour, that does not mean that things that indicate poor mental health should be normalised. They need to be treated with respect and dignity but just because 1 in 3 people get depression at some point during their lives mean we should accept that depression is "normal". Trust me, as a sufferer with occasional severe bouts, it most definitely is not. I don't want people to treat me like I'm made of glass but neither do I want people to think "Oh that's just PhineasGage going being depressed again". I may have some slight personal issues on this so sorry for my brief, if rather violent rant. It's not meant to be a criticism of your argument so much as the wording. In terms of arguing against the statement you made however, I disagree about it being a Lightweaver trait. Do we really think that Wit will start manifesting different personas? That we'll no longer be able to recognise him as he progresses along the paths of the Lightweavers? I for one can't see that happening. Hoid, for all his faults, is self aware. He will, like all people, be lying to himself, so I am sure there is plenty of room for progression but I do not think we'll see him shatter like Shallan has. Additionally, Shallan has been more broken than anyone else in the series. Not only is it clear that her bond occurred when she was a child (she was attacked by her mother because she was a surgebinder) but that there must therefore have been trauma before that for her to become broken enough to have attracted Pattern in the first place. She then killed him - almost destroying herself in the process. Indeed, she is dissociating from the very earliest memories we see in her flashbacks (losing track of time) and it is pretty clear that she regularly loses time (not loses track, I mean she seems to literally black out and timelapse) in both tWoK and WoR. She also does it in OB, but has found that splitting her personality is a more beneficial/;less noticeable way of dissociating herself, and the lightweaving is helping her make it more convincing. Indeed, I am concerned that she may have been doing a degree of soulcasting to herself in order to manufacture the divisions in her mind. If I'm right (and I hope I'm not) then she may never recover. I can see her using masks (there's a reason the mask is one of Shallash's icons) for the rest of her life, but a mask is not a dissociative personality that views itself as a separate entity. A mask allows people to act differently to how they might normally, but, crucially, it does not allow you to act outside of your personality. It merely allows aspects of your character to manifest that you normally keep under control eg for social/cultural reasons. For example, A person wearing a mask may feel more confident to approach someone they fancy than they would normally, because they know that any consequences will not fall on them when they take the mask off. This is normal - we all have situations in which we feel more, or less comfortable, masks often allow us to make uncomfortable situations to feel more comfortable. We all feel more confident in more comfortable surroundings. And in turn, if we feel confident, then the situation becomes more comfortable. But we can all take the mask off. Shallan isn't wearing masks anymore though, she is dissociating. I think this becomes more obvious if we look through some situations Shallan finds herself in. Lets look at tWoK. Without obvious multiple personas (although it can easily be argued that we have never seen the "full Shallan") she manages to get from Jah Keved to Kharbranth and become the ward of one of the most powerful women in the world. She manages the big and the small picture - she must have had to interact with all kinds of people as she gets off at each port to chase Jasnah and clearly does so with no particular issue (which is obvious because otherwise it would have been worth writing about in tWoK). She negotiates for passage - albeit with a captain she knows quite well by the end, and gets used to the gentle flirting of the sailors! When she meets Jasnah she has the guts to essentially argue with Jasnah to gain a position as ward. That's amazing. And she did it on her own. This, however seems to have fallen apart by OB - indeed there is a section where while she is Veil, she thinks that Veil is better at dealing with the day to day stuff and that Shallan was fine with the big picture or tiny details but not so good with the middle ground. Seriously? She managed to con her way into joining Sebarial's household. And whilst she used some lightweaving to give herself a mask (for confidence) she was definitely Shallan then. That was something she'd had to come up with on the fly - she couldnt have planned it completely beforehand. Its a huge risk, but she takes it anyway. That isn't something we see in OB. She dissociates every time there is risk - usually falling back on Radiant or Veil to allow her to hide. I ultimately put this down to the problem with having to acknowledge her mother's death. It was, in some ways, three truths in one, although it clearly only counted as one truth from a progression perspective. Not only did she have to acknowledge that she killed her mother (and could therefore be blamed for the fall of her father) but also that her own mother had tried to kill her. That is not something you come to terms with quickly. She then has too much put on her plate too quickly because she has no real confidante. She learns that she can no longer just stop thinking about it - a habit she had formed and used in the past, so she finds another way - splitting herself off in terms of her personality. Now I do think that Light-weaving has a role here because it certainly helps her feel like different people because she gets treated differently when she looks different. That reinforces the idea of being different people rather than a single person. This , in turn, I believe relates to the truth she needs to speak. Wit has, I think, already told her what it is. But the words don't matter, you need to believe them. And I think Shallan is a long way from that. In fact, of any of our "prime" radiants I would be least surprised if Shallan never reaches the 5th Ideal, because in order to do that she will need to confront so much pain and I honestly don't know if she will manage it. And if she doesn't, I don't think anyone could blame her. I believe that this is where her relationship with Adolin becomes of vital importance. Will he ultimately help or hinder her to reconstruct her full personality? Time will tell, but in my opinion, the signs are not promising. Edited November 19, 2017 by PhineasGage typos 3
PhineasGage Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Harbour said: In interpreted that hand holding scene differently. Shallan Adolin and most people see isnt "real" personality, while Veil and Radiant are fakes. Shallan isnt the only real personality, if to put the words better. Shallan is one of the three personalities that real Shallan consist of. And when she changed her personalities before Adolin, Adolin finally caught the Shallan, but not the Real One (because the Real One is Shallan+Veil+Radiant combination) and she fixed on this personality. Veil, then Radiant, then Shallan - finally, the one Adolin knows. Just look at Shallan' choice of words! Its like someone else finally picked up the personality appropriate for Adolin to see. Its not real Shallan he saw. To me it seemed like the real Shallan tried hard to show Adolin personality she think would be more appropriate for him to see. Shallan he knows. But not Shallan she is. I am interested to see how her brothers react to her - she has grown up a huge amount but also changed a great deal. They will likely have a better idea of her full personality and may be very upset if they encounter any of her alts. How will they manage "meeting" Veil or Radiant? Especially if they see traits that they specifically associate with Shallan.
kari-no-sugata Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 57 minutes ago, Starla said: @kari-no-sugata Thank you for writing out your thoughts on Shallan’s character arc in such detail. I have been a fan of hers through most of the first two books but I struggled with her character in Oathbringer from part 2 through the end. I know you have previously written some well-thought out discourses on her character and I specifically looked forward to reading your thoughts on her progress in this book. That's nice to know I had the same struggle with Oathbringer as well, from Part 2 to the end. The ending was not satisfying to me on first read and still isn't despite it being notionally positive for Shallan in tone. 57 minutes ago, Starla said: Though your post is quite positive on her progress, I am still not feeling good about her mental state at the end of the book. I think the big key with Shallan is that her personalities are her, they are not separate entities. When Veil or Radiant thinks or feels something, where does that thought or feeling come from? In the scene before the wedding the illusions are external and she is having a three-way conversation with them. Who does she think is talking when they speak? She separates herself from their thoughts and actions, but it is all coming from some compartmentalized part of her own mind. These are her thoughts and actions. Her compartments seem to be separated even more distinctly at the end of the book than they were at the beginning. Not to mention that she is still having blackouts in the later parts of the book. I think she should be moving toward integration, not separation. The one thing I am certain of is that Brandon is going to explore this much further. What the ending will look like I have no idea. I don't feel good about her mental state at the end of the book either, which is one of my gripes about it. We either needed to see her being somewhat stable for longer and through challenges or to have third party confirmation that she is much better. I want to take a slight step back to make two points: for a Windrunner (or Skybreaker), flying is not inherently safe - if you run out of Stormlight while high up in the air you could very easily die. But nobody says "Never fly! It's too dangerous!". Likewise, for Elsecallers, they can enter Shadesmar fully but that's not inherently safe either. But nobody says "Never enter Shadesmar! It's too dangerous!". The point I'm trying to make here is that probably all or most Orders have some particular ability that is actually rather dangerous but has all sorts of benefits. Might personas be like this for Lightweavers? I have no idea but it's possible. Most people get very nervous very quickly when people start messing around with the mind. It's certainly a very different sort of danger. But... all Radiants are already messing around with their minds by bonding spren in the first place. Though the scale is different to Shallan's personas. The point I'm trying to make here is that it might be incorrect to start from the assumption that the personas must be avoided or integrated. It may turn out to be the case and that might be what happens but they also might persist for the rest of Shallan's life and this might turn out to be fine. To turn to your questions during Shallan's three-way conversation etc, I would like to refer to Shai and her Essence Marks: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Wan_ShaiLu#Essence_Marks When Shai uses them she really changes - not just mentally, but physically. So where are these alternative personalities "kept"? How does that really work? How much does this overlap with what Shallan is doing with her personas? I've no real idea but one obvious difference is that Shallan's personas can be active concurrently with Shallan herself rather than being one at a time. I doubt Brandon is going to give us a deep explanation of what exactly is going on with Shallan and her personas just yet though. If Shallan had a soul with a describable shape, would we see her personas as odd branches off from her main soul? Can her personas actually think in parallel to Shallan or is she shifting between them really fast or just imaging them? I agree that her personas are not "separate" - their memories are certainly not separate, for example. Veil can clearly access Shallan's deep memories. Shallan remembers her times as Veil. Shallan created Veil and Radiant based on her own memories and experiences. Radiant feels closer to an alternative Shallan while Veil feels much more distinct. It's hard trying to describe what exactly is going on with her personas and it's also very subjective. I'm sure we'll be discussing this for some time. But I'm certain we'll see her personas at the start of book 4, in which case she'll have had them for over a year. I'm sure we'll have lots of discuss and theorise until it comes out and I'll probably be writing much more on this subject. 57 minutes ago, Starla said: I also do not feel certain that the “Shallan” that Adolin sensed in the hand holding scene is true Shallan. I think the true Shallan is a combination of all of her personalities. I believe this is what Wit was trying to tell her in Chapter 82. She is not a single personality with multiple fake personas. The true Shallan is an amalgam of all of her personas combined. They each represent a facet of a larger gem that she has not yet discovered. I think the full Shallan was probably shattered in childhood, with different pieces locked away into different areas of her mind. Most have remained hidden since, though some have manifested as her different illusions since she began lightweaving. I think her work now is to uncover those pieces and put them back together, but she has barely even begun that journey. The Shallan Adolin has married is one of those facets, not the full person. I don't think we've seen the real Shallan yet. Perhaps. There's certainly more lurking in Shallan's childhood. 57 minutes ago, Starla said: I agree wholeheartedly with @firegazer, the idea of Shallan having a child at this point is scary, so I hope we don’t go there. We already have little Gavinor in the cute toddler role, as well as baby Oroden. They can grow up to participate in the second half of the series rather than having our main characters dealing with pregnancy and parenthood in the middle of a desolation. Sure. It wasn't a serious suggestion. I think if Brandon was going to show the challenges of being a mother and warrior who is also critical to the cause then I don't think he'd take Shallan at this stage in her life. 57 minutes ago, Starla said: Also, you mention that Kaladin is not yet ready for a relationship because he is busy and focused on his work. I don’t agree with this. He works well with others and is highly caring and empathetic. I think he would do well with a partner who can work alongside him and who has his back. Perhaps a more extroverted or battle-oriented radiant who can go out with him in the field, like the male/female radiant duo in Dalinar’s vision. I don’t expect him to be sitting around Urithiru remaining stagnant. He’ll want to be out helping people. I can see a romantic relationship succeeding in this scenario, more so than a stay at home wife who is doing clerical work and bookkeeping and feeling left behind. Here's something to consider: let's say that Kaladin has someone he loves deeply. How would that affect his ability to keep his oaths? It could cause all sorts of problems. On the other hand, it could be just what he needs for the 4th Ideal. The way Kaladin thinks, I don't think he would allow himself to have a relationship with someone under his command (though I bet some of the girls will try). I think your suggestion of a partner who can work and fight alongside him could succeed but is there actually someone like that out there who isn't already under his command? She would almost certainly have to be a Windrunner (Skybreakers are out). Well, with all the Oathgates opening there might be the opportunity for him to meet someone rather like himself - if something like what you suggest does happen she would probably not be someone from Vorin culture. (Do Horneater princesses fight?) 57 minutes ago, Starla said: Your text also states that Shallan and Adolin’s friendship could help Kaladin with his problems. I agree that mutually supportive friendships are healthy for everyone. What you didn’t mention is that he could also help them, especially Shallan. Kaladin is very grounded and focused on solving external problems, like helping others. He feels strong emotions for people and doesn't hide from them. He’s been forced to learn how to face his feelings. Sometimes it overwhelms him, but it hasn’t killed him yet and he always bounces back. I think this is a trait Shallan will need to learn at some point in her healing process. I hope that somewhere down the road she can see that Kaladin is a valuable resource for learning the skills she has been pushing away for so long, but as of the end of Oathbringer she hasn’t realized this. This can come through a deep and trusting friendship that doesn't need to be romantic. I certainly agree that it goes both ways. I'm not sure I agree with your characterisation of Shallan here though. She's more than capable of showing her emotions to others - it's herself that she hides from. She often tries to help others as well. She has had to face her feelings of hatred for herself. Maybe what she can learn from him is other things - having a sense of mission, supporting and developing those under you, being a leader, etc. 57 minutes ago, Starla said: Finally regarding your comment about Helaran’s shards, they belong to Rock now. He killed Amaram, he gets the shards. He gave Oathbringer to Dalinar. He might decide to give the blade to Shallan, or he might give them to his people, who have been trying to win shards for centuries. He said in WOK that whoever brings shards back to the Horneater Peaks becomes king. I’m not sure if Rock wants to be a king, but he will probably want to help his people if it is that important to them. Good point on Rock. That could go in interesting ways, particularly with the Horneater Peaks having become strategically important (only stable gateway to Shadesmar). Is he ready to be a full time warrior though? I don't think Windrunners can fly with Plate unless it's their own creation either. Also, technically, Amaram stole Helaran's Shards from Kaladin and doesn't deserve to own them. I'm not sure how that would work out legally. But yes, it would be nice if Rock could (finally) give Shards to his people.
Egomere Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Harbour said: Its like someone else finally picked up the personality appropriate for Adolin to see. Its not real Shallan he saw. To me it seemed like the real Shallan tried hard to show Adolin personality she think would be more appropriate for him to see. Shallan he knows. But not Shallan she is. This. The Shallan that has been getting to know Adolin (during the courtship) is yet another personna. - During the fight she creates many potential illusions of herself (and others) to use as distractions. Remember when Jasnah goes to fetch her - takes 'Shallan' by the hand and she pops - forcing Jasnah to take Radient? This happens IMO becasue none of the personnas are the real Shallan - she remembers Wit's words but hasn't actually processed them correctly - she keeps forcing parts of her into each personna. (like how she feels for Kaladin into Veil). And the Shallan 'popping' is showing how flimsy that personna is as well. Now the problem I have is not that Shallan chose Adolin but because of how the choice was depicted so far. I'm not sure that Kaladin would have been a better choice or even a more honest one - I just don't believe BS did his best work in how he went about it. As in my earlier post it felt forced as BS didn't give half as much time for Kaladin to talk to Shallan at all in comparission to Shadolin onpage time (and even that was split between all three personnas - 2 of which didn't like Adolin as the choice). So I do hope that the two of them can work the marrige thing out but I feel Shallan has regressed (like @PhineasGage says) and is heading for a major disaster and probably sooner rather than later that the marriage might very well exacerbate the matters rather than helping. (although if it does I'm all for it - and I hope it work out for the two of them I just can't currently see it ending well with how I see Shallan's position atm. 4
Guest Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 54 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: Lets look at tWoK. Without obvious multiple personas (although it can easily be argued that we have never seen the "full Shallan") she manages to get from Jah Keved to Kharbranth and become the ward of one of the most powerful women in the world. She manages the big and the small picture - she must have had to interact with all kinds of people as she gets off at each port to chase Jasnah and clearly does so with no particular issue (which is obvious because otherwise it would have been worth writing about in tWoK). She negotiates for passage - albeit with a captain she knows quite well by the end, and gets used to the gentle flirting of the sailors! When she meets Jasnah she has the guts to essentially argue with Jasnah to gain a position as ward. That's amazing. And she did it on her own. This, however seems to have fallen apart by OB - indeed there is a section where while she is Veil, she thinks that Veil is better at dealing with the day to day stuff and that Shallan was fine with the big picture or tiny details but not so good with the middle ground. Seriously? She managed to con her way into joining Sebarial's household. And whilst she used some lightweaving to give herself a mask (for confidence) she was definitely Shallan then. That was something she'd had to come up with on the fly - she couldnt have planned it completely beforehand. Its a huge risk, but she takes it anyway. That isn't something we see in OB. She dissociates every time there is risk - usually falling back on Radiant or Veil to allow her to hide. This is exactly why I think, that Veil and Radiant are just a part of Shallan and not just different persons, she created on a whim. She once did all those things she does as Veil and Radiant (being confident, being extremely pragmatic, being charismatic) as Shallan in TWoK, but now seems only to be capable of doing them being Veil and Radiant. The Truth, that she killed her mother, traumatised her so much, that she pushed herself down, called herself a monster, blamed herself for everything bad that happened to her family. She really would have needed some time for herself, but didn't get it. So she used her already established "disguise" of Veil to be a crutch for her, so she can function, but forgot herself in the process. Radiant was created out of a similar predicament. She forgot herself in the process. Hoid tried to get her to remember, but she wasn't quite ready to understand what he truly meant. Adolin kinda got through to her and gave her Shallan side a purpose, being his wife, giving her a bit more power, but it still isn't Shallan, the loving spouse, the pragmatic Knight Radiant, the con woman. Which is everything, she actually is capable of, as she proved in TWoK and WoR. But rather just Shallan, the loving spouse. Before she forcibly convinced herself, that Adolin is the right one, even her pragmatic side, Radiant, began to see an advantage of a union with Kaladin - which isn't wrong, just imagine what Shallan and Kaladin could accomplish together. Both being Knight Radiants and actually having powers that; I think, synergize well. (Creating distractions and hitting hard.) Anyway, the Shallan side of the trio Veil, Radiant and Shallan now sees her purpose in being Adolin's wife, which I think will make it even harder for her to ever truly reintegrate her personas. Especially if one side of her doesn't love Adolin. Edited November 19, 2017 by SLNC replaced Wit with his real name
Mondaysjelly Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said: Book 4 is supposed to take place about a year on from OB. Huh? Is this true? Edited November 19, 2017 by Mondaysjelly
Guest Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: Here's something to consider: let's say that Kaladin has someone he loves deeply. How would that affect his ability to keep his oaths? It could cause all sorts of problems. On the other hand, it could be just what he needs for the 4th Ideal. The way Kaladin thinks, I don't think he would allow himself to have a relationship with someone under his command (though I bet some of the girls will try). I think your suggestion of a partner who can work and fight alongside him could succeed but is there actually someone like that out there who isn't already under his command? She would almost certainly have to be a Windrunner (Skybreakers are out). Well, with all the Oathgates opening there might be the opportunity for him to meet someone rather like himself - if something like what you suggest does happen she would probably not be someone from Vorin culture. (Do Horneater princesses fight?) Shallan would be. They have proven again and again, that they work well together and think alike. Edited November 19, 2017 by SLNC
PhineasGage Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 21 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: I want to take a slight step back to make two points: for a Windrunner (or Skybreaker), flying is not inherently safe - if you run out of Stormlight while high up in the air you could very easily die. But nobody says "Never fly! It's too dangerous!". Likewise, for Elsecallers, they can enter Shadesmar fully but that's not inherently safe either. But nobody says "Never enter Shadesmar! It's too dangerous!". The point I'm trying to make here is that probably all or most Orders have some particular ability that is actually rather dangerous but has all sorts of benefits. Might personas be like this for Lightweavers? I have no idea but it's possible. Most people get very nervous very quickly when people start messing around with the mind. It's certainly a very different sort of danger. I see your point but would like to point out that illusions are inherently dangerous, without bringing the personas into it. Part of the danger comes from the belief that they are innocuous. Let me give you an example - it's used in The Black Magician Trilogy by Trudi Canavan - well worth the read btw if you haven't read it! The story revolves around 2 brothers who end up fighting - one creates an illusion of a boulder falling. Behind it, he has a real boulder fall. The second brother dismisses the illusory boulder as the illusion it is but fails to realise there is a real boulder behind it so it lands on him and he is killed. The first brother is grief-stricken etc etc - read the book if you want more details lol The point is, that illusions make you see things differently and may, by giving you false information, make you make bad decisions. Now you could argue that the danger is to others than the lightweaver - but honestly, the first brother in the story above has only a Pyrrhic victory. He is harmed by his own illusion as well. On top of that, imagine knowing the things you are seeing could very well simply be an illusion. It would be terrible - could you ever trust your own senses? 29 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Wan_ShaiLu#Essence_Marks When Shai uses them she really changes - not just mentally, but physically. So where are these alternative personalities "kept"? How does that really work? They aren't alternate personalities. Shai keeps her personality - essence marks have to be believable to hold - that's the whole premise of the story! She cannot make her self be anyone she wants, she is still essentially herself, it is the "trimmings" of her story that are altered only - she has learned to curb impulses differently, but that doesn't mean those impulses aren't there. It looks like more because she changes things like her upbringing in dramatic ways - but the key is that they are ALL Shai as she would have been had her circumstances had been different. They aren't different people. For all but one of her essence marks she still even remembers that it is a fake identity. She knows what her real autobiography is, even tho she feels like she can remember the false memories. If changing one's personality was easy, she wouldn't have had to get incredible detail on the Emperor that she needs to soul forge him. Even in his mindless state, his spiritual ideal would still eventually reject the forgery if it didn't match closely enough. On top of that, Shai has to know her own personality intimately (ie be incredibly self aware) to create forgeries of her own soul. It took her years. And even then none of her forgeries hold for longer than about a day - she even says that if she eventually uses her final essence mark she's written in a need to stamp herself every day. If she tried to change her personality too much I think it wouldn't take at all. 42 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: Here's something to consider: let's say that Kaladin has someone he loves deeply. How would that affect his ability to keep his oaths? It could cause all sorts of problems. On the other hand, it could be just what he needs for the 4th Ideal. The way Kaladin thinks, I don't think he would allow himself to have a relationship with someone under his command (though I bet some of the girls will try). I do agree with you here. I think it depends on how the other person views the situation. Now that Shallan is out of the picture (at least for a while) I personally am thinking an Edgedancer type (not Lift, obviously) would work - the orders complement one another, and the whole listening thing plus remembering the forgotten is something I could see Kaladin valuing. Plus the extra healing as an adjunct to Bridge 4 (not under his command, but to the side) would be handy on all sorts of levels. I may have to go full fanfic on that. 45 minutes ago, SLNC said: Anyway, the Shallan side of the trio Veil, Radiant and Shallan now sees her purpose in being Adolin's wife, which I think will make it even harder for her to ever truly reintegrate her personas. Especially if one side of her doesn't love Adolin. I agree, though it annoys me. No-one should think their purpose is to be the perfect spouse. Argh, it really gets my inner feminist boiling. Marriage is all well and good, but only when as many male characters are expected to go and be "perfect husbands" as female characters get landed with the "perfect wife" purpose will I be at least able to tolerate the idea that the purpose in anyone's life should be getting married. Be the best partner you can be, but seriously, get a better purpose! It annoyes me as well because we see Navani chase Dalinar, but her purpose is understanding fabrials. Jasnah is seemingly planning on remaining single, and her purpose is to understand the truth of history. Why does poor Shallan get lumped with this. 5
kari-no-sugata Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 39 minutes ago, Mondaysjelly said: Huh? Is this true? Hmm. I'm pretty sure I read this a few months ago (about there being a year gap in-world before SA4 starts). Can't find the quote again though. It's a bit tricky to search for, unfortunately. Hopefully it's not my mind playing tricks on me...
Guest Posted November 19, 2017 Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said: Hmm. I'm pretty sure I read this a few months ago (about there being a year gap in-world before SA4 starts). Can't find the quote again though. It's a bit tricky to search for, unfortunately. Hopefully it's not my mind playing tricks on me... No, I remember reading something similar, though the ending of OB makes me question it. Especially Shallans task to capture Sja-anat. Edit: Nevermind. Answer below. Edited November 19, 2017 by SLNC
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