[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[ScavellTane]

But they would be involved in the KR regardless. I'm keen on that. That's beside the point of the thread though.

 

Orange hair?????

Edited December 5, 2017 by ScavellTane

[PhineasGage]

2 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Joke aside, I think it will be just two colored hair - black from Adolin's alethi side (the blond isn't that dominant iri gold hair, so I think it will lose genetically) and red from Shallan.

I'm not sure on the genetics of this - I mean, IRL, red < blonde < brown < black. But Stormlight seems very different in this regard because blonde and black are obviously co-dominant or Adolin wouldn't have bi-coloured hair. I'm by no means an expert on hair colour but afaik whilst we have shades within our own hair colours, we don't have multiple colour bases. When you see very stark highlights (natural ones) they tend to be lighter than the rest because they are essentially a loss of the pigment we use to colour our hair and skin. It could be (for example) a kind of albinism that causes streaks of different coloured hair. I don't think this is the case for Adolin.

I am not sure we have any good evidence for what the actual case may be. Most of our cast is "pure Alethi" and those that aren't are generally separated from them on some genetic as well as cultural level. Given that Alethi hair breeds true, and it seems that Rira hair does too, we could assume that Shallan's red might as well (everyone in the Horneater Peaks is redheaded iirc)

If we ran with a situation of Mendelian genetics, I'd be more inclined to believe that the kids would be either red, blonde or black depending on which specific genes are dominant/co dominant. If the red is co dominant with the blonde and the black, then I'd say red-blonde or black-red are the most likely outcomes (Adolin cannot pass blonde and black on to a single offspring if Mendelian genetics holds true). 

I know this was a joke, but I seem to have run with it. Sorry about that.

As an aside, I am not in favour of said baby regardless of their hair colour. 

[Aleksiel]

12 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm not sure on the genetics of this - I mean, IRL, red < blonde < brown < black. But Stormlight seems very different in this regard because blonde and black are obviously co-dominant or Adolin wouldn't have bi-coloured hair. I'm by no means an expert on hair colour but afaik whilst we have shades within our own hair colours, we don't have multiple colour bases. When you see very stark highlights (natural ones) they tend to be lighter than the rest because they are essentially a loss of the pigment we use to colour our hair and skin. It could be (for example) a kind of albinism that causes streaks of different coloured hair. I don't think this is the case for Adolin.

I am not sure we have any good evidence for what the actual case may be. Most of our cast is "pure Alethi" and those that aren't are generally separated from them on some genetic as well as cultural level. Given that Alethi hair breeds true, and it seems that Rira hair does too, we could assume that Shallan's red might as well (everyone in the Horneater Peaks is redheaded iirc)

If we ran with a situation of Mendelian genetics, I'd be more inclined to believe that the kids would be either red, blonde or black depending on which specific genes are dominant/co dominant. If the red is co dominant with the blonde and the black, then I'd say red-blonde or black-red are the most likely outcomes (Adolin cannot pass blonde and black on to a single offspring if Mendelian genetics holds true). 

I know this was a joke, but I seem to have run with it. Sorry about that.

As an aside, I am not in favour of said baby regardless of their hair colour. 

We'll have to see, however Adolin's hair doesn't have the riran gold that breeds true, it was mentioned Evi was normal blond, so you I thought I'd mention my two cents on the 'how many hair colors' topic. Red hasn't been mentioned to breed true, only alethi black and riran gold, so I'd hazard they'll have black-red hair colored children.

Anyway, I won't go too much off topic. They have performed the appropriate social rituals (to use Pattern's expression) and they are young and healthy, thus the only I see for Shallan to not be with child next book is if they decide it's not the time, which didn't come up in OB. I can't say what Brandon will choose, I pointed to Shallan wondering about their future children's hair as possible foreshadowing in favor of a baby. I don't label it as good or bad, just the way the plot is going in my opinion. I agree to disagree on this. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Aleksiel

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

We'll have to see, however Adolin's hair doesn't have the riran gold that breeds true, it was mentioned Evi was normal blond, so you I thought I'd mention my two cents on the 'how many hair colors' topic. Red hasn't been mentioned to breed true, only alethi black and riran gold, so I'd hazard they'll have black-red hair colored childr

So the issue is that Evi's hair does breed true because both her boys have her hair at least in part. Regardless of the statement of whether or not hers is Iri gold (and I agree that it isn't) - we have physical proof that it competes with Alethi black on a even footing. And if red doesn't breed true, then only Adolin's hair would be passed on because it would dominate the red. That leaves us with either a mix of red + black/blonde (depending which comes through) or black or blonde alone if the red is recessive to the black and blonde. It cannot be recessive to one and not the other because those are co-dominant as per the Kholin boys phenotypes.

 

5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Anyway, I won't go too much off topic. They have performed the appropriate social rituals and she is young and healthy, thus the only I see for Shallan to be with child next book is if they decide it's not the time, which didn't come up in OB.

Oh yes I agree, I'm not pointing to any specific evidence that dictates Shallan's likely choice. I am simply stating my preference. The closest I can get to evidence is that Jasnah may not want her ward to go and get pregnant in the middle of her education.

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, PhineasGage said:

So the issue is that Evi's hair does breed true because both her boys have her hair at least in part. Regardless of the statement of whether or not hers is Iri gold (and I agree that it isn't) - we have physical proof that it competes with Alethi black on a even footing. And if red doesn't breed true, then only Adolin's hair would be passed on because it would dominate the red. That leaves us with either a mix of red + black/blonde (depending which comes through) or black or blonde alone if the red is recessive to the black and blonde. It cannot be recessive to one and not the other because those are co-dominant as per the Kholin boys phenotypes.

Alethi black doesn't completely dominate other haircolors, it just passes in the next generation, so unlike in our world there was no chance for Renarin or Adolin to be all blond. There are other characters with black and brown/red/blond. It doesn't mean there's a certain brown hair type that breeds true, at least not from what we know so far. I wonder if this topic deserves its own thread, but may be not...

4 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh yes I agree, I'm not pointing to any specific evidence that dictates Shallan's likely choice. I am simply stating my preference. The closest I can get to evidence is that Jasnah may not want her ward to go and get pregnant in the middle of her education.

This is an interesting point and I honestly don't know. May be Jasnah would want them to have an heir as soon as possible just to be done with it, that's a practical approach, too, especially when there's a high chance of dying - it's a Desolation after all, and power vacuum can't be allowed.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

May be Jasnah would want them to have an heir as soon as possible just to be done with it, that's a practical approach, too, especially when there's a high chance of dying - it's a Desolation after all, and power vacuum can't be allowed.

This idea alone is solidifying my stance, that the marriage was a bad idea. So much agency robbing.

[Awesomness]

5 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I believe that the spren for most of our Knights (not Dalinar who's spren is unique anyway) the bonded spren identifies as the opposite gender of the radiant concerned. Again, Renarin and Venli break this (Timbre is female right?) Note that this does not seem to have to be true because Ym was a TW and as far as we know, his was a normal spren. But then Stump is female and fits the pattern again. Not sure this is pure coincidence?

I always read Timbre as a male, because "timbre" is a male word in spanish (you know, nouns have genre, so we say "el timbre", el being male pronoun). Of course, what do I know about Brandon´s spanish level...

Anyway, I rememder there was a WOB saying there is something significant about spren being the opposite genre of their radiants. The only exceptions are Dalinar (who we consider an excussed), Renarin and Lopen.

Renarin and Glys could be explained because Glys is corrupted... or Renrin is gay...

And, there is another WOB that say Herdazians are nearly asexual because the have parshendi blood. Lopen´s spren is a boy, so maybe and just maybe I just came up with a very irrelevant theory

56 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I've wondered about that, too  Good thing their father has a trusted tailor to create an appropriate wardrobe 

This could be another argument against Shadoin and pro Shalladin!!  This is a serious worry for many woman!

Edited December 5, 2017 by Awesomness

[PhineasGage]

5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Alethi black doesn't completely dominate other haircolors, it just passes in the next generation, so unlike in our world there was no chance for Renarin or Adolin to be all blond. There are other characters with black and brown/red/blond. It doesn't mean there's a certain brown hair type that breeds true, at least not from what we know so far. I wonder if this topic deserves its own thread, but may be not...

It might be worth it - esp if we can find someone to join that has a better understanding of the actual mechanics of the genetics of human colouring. For example, I disagree that there was a chance for Adolin or Renarin to be all blonde on earth - IRL if Dalinar's parents were both Alethi, then chances are he had black/black alleles rather than black/non-expressed colour. That would mean 100% of his children would inherit his black hair. This is true - both his children have his hair but unlike RL, they also have Evi's blonde (likely blonde/blonde alleles). IRL, if Dalinar was black/black then neither of his children could  be blonde because their blonde from their mother would be recessive to the black. If Dalinar had (eg) Black/red then he would have a 50% chance of black hair (per child) and a 50% chance of blonde (per child) and a 0% chance of red because red < blonde IRL and blonde <black IRL.

If you think a discussion is worth it, then I'm happy to draw up a real-world pedigree based on what we know and post in in a new thread.

12 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

This is an interesting point and I honestly don't know. May be Jasnah would want them to have an heir as soon as possible just to be done with it, that's a practical approach, too, especially when there's a high chance of dying - it's a Desolation after all, and power vacuum can't be allowed.

I'd have thought they also can't really allow their only LW (they don't know about Wit yet) to stop being battle ready. You can't really expect her to go into fighting whilst heavily pregnant - for one thing your centre of balance is really off when you are heavily pregnant. On top of that, medieval child birth comes with its own very real dangers. We also don't know how stormlight affects eg fertility, pregnancy, risks to the foetus etc etc. I'd be inclined to recommend against pregnancy whilst using stormlight for that reason alone if it were IRL. We advise most drugs are stopped during pregnancy for this reason - we simply don't know the potential consequences.

 

3 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

And, there is another WOB that say Herdazians are nearly asexual because the have parshendi blood. Lopen´s spren is a boy, so maybe and just maybe I just came up with a very irrelevant theory

Huh, I didn't know this. That's interesting - especially given how much time Lopen spends thinking about marrying the king of Herdaz's daughter. I think Renarin may be asexual so that is why Glys is male? Not sure if there is WoB on that. 

[Rainier]

11 minutes ago, Awesomness said:

I always read Timbre as a male, because "timbre" is a male word in spanish (you know, nouns have genre, so we say "el timbre", el being male pronoun). Of course, what do I know about Brandon´s spanish level...

It's also an English word, pronounced like the start of tambourine.

tim·bre 

ˈtambər

I'm assuming mixed-gender pairs unless specified otherwise. I look at it like handedness: right-handed is much more common, but left-handed isn't unknown at all, just less common.

[GoddessIMHO]

I finally have a good link for the short YouTube video on why it is so hard to convince someone. Hint: facts don't matter.

 

[PhineasGage]

8 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

Hint: facts don't matter.

Good video. That being said, it is pretty clear from that video that facts do matter, it is just that you need to present them from the perspective of a common goal. I mean using their vaccine example, vaccines are meant to prevent measles, mumps, rubella, polio etc. That is fact based, not opinion based. It is just that by presenting it as a "we should do this" rather than "you should do this" you can get more parents to agree to vaccinate. No-one will get anywhere by just saying "I think you should just believe my opinion" - we need the evidence to be available to us, or it is very easy to disregard it. That is why I keep asking for in-book quotes and references regarding support for Shadolin, but no-one seems to be helping me out.

[Greywatch she/her]

To be more accurate than that, it's not just facts, it's about finding the facts that both parties value and have in common. The point goddess was making that it can't just be plain refuting the point with "this fact is where you're wrong". The effective argument in the example still changed (1) the facts that were presented and (2) attitude from competitive to cooperative. It also only works well if there are no winners or losers.

[DeployParachute]

10 minutes ago, Ookla the Grey said:

To be more accurate than that, it's not just facts, it's about finding the facts that both parties value and have in common. The point goddess was making that it can't just be plain refuting the point with "this fact is where you're wrong". The effective argument in the example still changed (1) the facts that were presented and (2) attitude from competitive to cooperative. It also only works well if there are no winners or losers.

Hence why the best argument for Shalladin going forward is to articulate that there is evidence to support both ships, thus, Shallan is capable and interested in loving BOTH men, and it can be reasonably drawn from this that it is likely that she indeed WILL love both men over the course of this epic narrative.

[Meghan1Q84]

Nicely put @Ookla the Grey

Wouldn't that be a nice way to turn the whole "every woman with two X chromosomes must immediately fall stupid in love with Rand" on its head? Perhaps more tastefully...

That drove me nuts. Particularly with Min. 

Sorry, I know that's another series, but clearly I'm not over it yet.

[insert_anagram_here]

@GoddessIMHO I feel the need to express that I do not agree with your video, but that would only prove its own point :S

Edited December 5, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[Guest]

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I'd have thought they also can't really allow their only LW (they don't know about Wit yet) to stop being battle ready. You can't really expect her to go into fighting whilst heavily pregnant - for one thing your centre of balance is really off when you are heavily pregnant. On top of that, medieval child birth comes with its own very real dangers. We also don't know how stormlight affects eg fertility, pregnancy, risks to the foetus etc etc. I'd be inclined to recommend against pregnancy whilst using stormlight for that reason alone if it were IRL. We advise most drugs are stopped during pregnancy for this reason - we simply don't know the potential consequences.

Good points.

I just can't see a scenario, where pregnancy and fighting as a KR mix. Same goes for raising a child.

And, personally, I'd not like to read Shallan raise a child, instead of pursuing her path as a Radiant. Both things need full commitment. Even in real life we have paid maternity leave for a reason.

Edited December 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Good points.

I just can't see a scenario, where pregnancy and fighting as a KR mix. Same goes for raising a child.

Don't limit women to just one role. A woman can raise and child and do something else, too. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Don't limit women to just one role. A woman can raise and child and do something else, too. 

Oh, please don't try to paint me as misogynistic. Read my edit, thank you very much.

It has nothing to do with roles, but with commitment.

Edited December 5, 2017 by SLNC
typo

[firegazer]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

Don't limit women to just one role. A woman can raise and child and do something else, too. 

At the risk of repeating myself on this thread: a woman can raise a child and do something else too. A 17-year old girl doesn't need to be raising a child (or getting married either, but WHATEVER), no matter how the author justifies it happening in his society. As a reader, I am SO not here for reading that, and I will drop this series like a hot rock if it happens.

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

Oh, please don't try to paint me as mysogynistic. Read my edit, thank you very much.

It has nothing to do with roles, but with commitment.

I wasn't. I pointed out what sounded as a fallacy. It's a Desolation, but people will still live their lives. Many will have children and some of them will be Radiants - women, men... It may not be Shallan, but I see no reason to not have Radiant parent, in fact I expect that. A fighting mother seems like twisting tropes the way Brandon likes to do.

4 minutes ago, firegazer said:

At the risk of repeating myself on this thread: a woman can raise a child and do something else too. A 17-year old girl doesn't need to be raising a child (or getting married either, but WHATEVER), no matter how the author justifies it happening in his society. As a reader, I am SO not here for reading that, and I will drop this series like a hot rock if it happens.

I don't apply modern standards to Roshar or any other non-modern setting. Well, at least give it a chance if it goes that way. No need to get worked up over something that hasn't happened yet.

[analyticaposteriori]

11 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Don't limit women to just one role. A woman can raise and child and do something else, too. 

That "something else" probably won't include fighting a pitched war with a city busting level of magic though. Unless you want the kid to grow up a mental trainwreck. And nobody is trying to "limit women" here - fathers would run into the same exact problem.

[GoddessIMHO]

Women in the United States military have to deploy even if they have children. Part of the military requirement is that they have care options already in place.

Shallan is part of the nobility. As has been true throughout history, women of wealth do not have to live by the same rules as other women. I'm not saying it is a good thing for Shallan to have a child. I am saying that she would also have wet nurses, nannies and guards for any child she had. We have already seen that Evi left Renerin at home to follow Dalinar.

[firegazer]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

I don't apply modern standards to Roshar or any other non-modern setting. Well, at least give it a chance if it goes that way. No need to get worked up over something that hasn't happened yet.

I apply modern standards to modern books. This setting doesn't exist. It's not a real historical period. The author could have easily chosen not to write a society where women get married and/or pregnant at 17 years old. He did not. He further made the conscious decision to force his only main character female into the same role, in spite of the fact that she could have evaded it.

If she ends up pregnant, I'm done, mostly because I myself do not want, and have never wanted, to read about teenage pregnancy in a lovely, positive light. It doesn't belong in my own choices of fantasy novel. I do not enjoy it. And I hate that authors get away with doing it because "it was a different (nonexistent, totally fantasy) time period."

[Blazenella he/him]

1 minute ago, analyticaposteriori said:

That "something else" probably won't include fighting a pitched war with a city busting level of magic though. Unless you want the kid to grow up a mental trainwreck. And nobody is trying to "limit women" here - fathers would run into the same exact problem.

I mean, Renarin was almost never near his dad/mom and Adolin only a little more, and they turned out great! 

 

Oh wait...

[Ailvara]

14 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Don't limit women to just one role. A woman can raise and child and do something else, too. 

There are only so many hours in a day. You can raise a child having 9-5 job to some extent, (still with some help ofc), but saving the world tends to be a 24/7 kind of party. It's possible to combine nearly any kind of roles in a lifetime, but not always at the same time. That being said, they're going to have as many babysitters as they need. I'd honestly expect Shallan's commitment to parenting to be possibly not much bigger than Dalinar's... Which would work practically and only practically, so I hope it won't happen. But I personally don't like baby storylines, so I'm biased.