[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Dreamstorm]

I don't want to bring this back, but thought people might find it interesting:

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Are you ever gonna write a pregnant woman in your books?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, I kinda got my fill of it in Wheel of Time. Because Elayne, which is such-- there's just so much pregnancy. So, like-- I've actually thought about this before, and I think, I just read those books so many times I'm like--

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

You're just full of it.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yeah. But that's not a good reason! But I'm pretty sure that's my reason.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8321

[analyticaposteriori]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

I don't want to bring this back, but thought people might find it interesting:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8321

that's why the timeskip exists

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

that's why the timeskip exists

My hopes have never been crushed more quickly

[PhineasGage]

Hi all, its late here but I finally got the "essay" up if you want to read it

Go here: http://www.evidencebased.info/?page_id=30 and use password: Shard

 

Please be aware that I have only thrown this site up tonight so it is not formatted etc - and its just a wordpress site so I C+Ped in the text so the formatting isn't great but should be legible. There are no comments etc and no contact stuff is real - so please don't use it  If you want to comment on it - either do so here (please tag me) or PM me directly. 

There are probably a few typos etc but the most important thing I'd love from you all is your feedback. Please let me know if you agree/disagree with my interpretations of each piece of evidence, or if you see something in WoR or tWoK that you think should be included. What I'll do is add additional points and post them up on the site as addenda in a few weeks. Please be aware this was written last year, long before we had any OB information (afaik) so don;t expect any of that in it. I am happy to discuss the essay in light of OB information (you'll notice I got some serious predictions wrong for example) but I'd rather leave the essay in the setting of being essentially Pre-OB. I'll do another analysis with OB stuff in it in the future and probably use this essay plus any feedback you give me to write it up. 

I have only put the password in to reduce traffic. The server I'm using is in the UK and it was running very slowly for me (in Cyprus) so I hope you don't have any trouble using it. If you think anyone else would be interested, feel free to send them the link and password. 

I will eventually get this site up and running as a proper blog type thing - you know actual pictures etc. Probably a mix of minecraft and Stormlight if I'm honest  But if I change the site I'll make sure to keep that page up just in case. I'll also likely be interested in putting up anyone else's analysis in the future if anyone wants it posted. That will be some time off yet though so don't get excited!

So just as a final thing, I'm not looking to fight about this. If you want to give me another interpretation of a piece of evidence I will happily include it in the addendum, but I'm not going to debate my conclusion because that was a "feelings" thing. I can't change how writing that essay made me feel at the time. I can change the way I interpret the evidence now and that may change my mind if enough is altered to change my perception of the story as a whole. I want more Adolin evidence in particular because I am worried I missed bits and that has biased my results. 

Anyway, hope you enjoy. 

PS I haven't read up the thread tonight (sorry) but I'll answer posts in the morning .

[mariapapadia]

@PhineasGage I'm working on my dissertation right now and this looks more thought through and put together that my thesis will ever be I am blown away by your dedication 

[Awesomness]

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about how to reconcile both storylines, as I don't like red herrings and I hope there is something to both of them. And my wild speculation is, that Adolin reviving Maya might result in him gaining Radiant powers without saying the oaths, as he would be already bound to her. It feels like a stretch, but with some work on the details and maybe new information on how these things work, it might be possible.

 

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

He's either going to have to come to a reckoning over something significant as a result of his own decisions, character, and agency, or he's going to die.

Mmmm maybe he´ll die a la Elokhar, trying to say the oaths?

Personally I don´t think he will turn into an Edgedancer. I don´t buy the evidence, seems to be wishful thinking (LOL)

Maybe he won´t completely revive Maya -because the only one who can do that is her KR-, but he will half revive her, and ease her pain. 

[Guest]

@PhineasGage Wow... Bookmarked. I don't know when I will find time to sit down and give it my full attention, but thanks in advance. I'm really impressed.

[aemetha]

Nice essay and summary @PhineasGage

I do have one possible critique. Opposites attract is a thing we say, and there is some truth to it - but only when those opposites are complimentary. In other words, one party has to offer something meaningful to the other outside of conflict. No relationship can practically be maintained based only on physical attraction and conflict. So what do they actually offer each other in this respect?

By and large, people choose people for their similarities to themselves. They form social groups on that basis. They form romantic attachments on that basis. Similarity is the single best predictor of a compatible pairing. A prominent psychologist once quipped about how astonishing it is, that in a world of billions of people, so many people find their "one and only" living a short distance from their home - but then, people who live near each other tend to identify with one another.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, aemetha said:

In other words, one party has to offer something meaningful to the other outside of conflict. No relationship can practically be maintained based only on physical attraction and conflict. So what do they actually offer each other in this respect?

Curiosity and interest in science, actually being on one wavelength regarding humor and, well, ... brokenness. If you're talking about similarities.

Edited December 6, 2017 by SLNC

[mariapapadia]

I was procrastinating and looking though WoBs as one does.. and this annotation from WoK stood out to me 

Quote

#12Nov. 24, 2017 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two's flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan's father has an infamous temper; it's buried deep within her as well. If she'd been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

It's funny how I stumble upon this after a couple of weeks of disscusing Shallan and nitpicking everything about her.. I have conflicted opinions about this. I know there were theories and theses wrote on her on this forum, by others who see her underlayers and symbolism more than I do, but this is the first time when I actually start to belive  that there is much more to her story. This gives me hope and it makes me more excited to see who the real Shallan is. 

But on the other side I get more annoyed and frustrated at things like this "flaring passion", used to describe Kaladin as well. UGHHGHGH I don't know what to think anymore. WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME BRANDON ?! You guys all debating and nitpiking don't help, because it makes me belive there is something more, but there my logic kicks in and I can't tell how much is wishful thinking and how much is reality. Oh well.. I'm just going mad I guess. 

The thing is now, I'm trying to imagine how all this will go. Let's assume there will be no more romantic undertones to Shallan and Kaladin, I am curios where this is going. Because I browse through a couple more WoBs and saw a lot of references about how important the interraction between those two will be. Plus  their mirrored arcs until OB and all the other details that made them contrast/complement eachother. It builds up to an important connection/ relationship (not necerssarily romantic ) between the two, but then OB felt so anticlimactic, not only romantic wise, that I don't know what to think. Maybe their romantic connection had to be get out of the way before they could become close friends or something? 

I don't even know where I'm going with this 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Maybe their romantic connection had to be get out of the way before they could become close friends or something? 

This could be right, but why hint it in the first place then? The could have just been close friends after the chasm, but no, they were very much interested in each other.

It always comes back to that (even more after reading @PhineasGages excellent analysis of the chasm scene)... Why craft such a compelling and strong scene and then throw it away?! It boggles my mind.

[aemetha]

This is all just my guesses, but this is my take on the whole situation.

Shallan has a fractured personality.

Veil identifies with Kaladin

Shallan, who is apparently her main identity with perhaps some additional repression thrown in, identifies with Adolin.

The love triangle was a plot device intended to demonstrate on Shallan's part a choice to integrate into her main personality, rather than further move toward the alternate personality.

At the same time, the device helped to show that Kaladin, who is incredibly stubborn, can soften his feelings for a person. Shallan in many ways embodies all the things he hates. Lighteyed, deceitful, arrogant etc. The plot device showed that he can come to accept a relationship with her as a friend, and the romance angle was a vehicle to explain why he even bothered to learn enough about her for that step.

As for the future direction, this is what I think, and this will likely not be pleasant to read for fans of Adolin so if you're feeling particularly sensitive, look away from the spoiler.

Spoiler

I think Adolin is going to get horribly slaughtered, thus creating a crisis for Shallan which threatens to throw her back into the whole regression thing. I think Shallan will in some respect be responsible for his death. I don't think they will have a child as it's erroneous to the plot. Adolin is not a POV character, but much attention has been given to raising his esteem in the eyes of the POV characters, and indeed the reader. For a persons death to have particular meaning in fiction that person needs to be meaningful to the readers. Think Ned Stark here - he's actually a brilliant example because they are held up to be very similar, likeable characters.

So, that's my take on the whole situation.

[mariapapadia]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

This could be right, but why hint it in the first place then? The could have just been close friends after the chasm, but no, they were very much interested in each other.

It always comes back to that (even more after reading @PhineasGages excellent analysis of the chasm scene)... Why craft such a compelling and strong scene and then throw it away?! It boggles my mind.

 Maybe he wanted to hint at the possibility of a romantic relationship and then kill it, so people won't fantasize the whole series about K&S. UGHHH! I don't know ! It's frustrating ! Yes, the chasm scene looks like such a waste now ! 

Then there is also this! The thing is, as hard as I try something doesn't fit here. 

Quote

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)
#8 

Questioner

Is Adolin and Shallan going to get together, or will Kaladin and Shallan?

Brandon Sanderson

That is quite the question. I will eventually answer that, but you are getting Read-and-Find-Outed. It is intentionally a bit of a mimicry of something else that happened in the past.

If it's an immitation of something that happened in the past, I assume he refers to the Gavilar Navani Dalinar triangle, then why weren't things explored a bit more in-depth? Was that supposed to be all ? I'm literally talking to myself now, but I get annoyed because I just achieved a moment of peace and then I read all of these and want to scream "WHERE IS THIS IS OB BRANDON, WHERE?" 

[Ailvara]

I had way too much time in the evening, so I wrote my supershort take on How It Should Have Ended. Feel free to mock my grammar or anything, this is therapeutical and purposefully Shalladin-less. http://archiveofourown.org/works/12935616

2 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

If it's an immitation of something that happened in the past, I assume he refers to the Gavilar Navani Dalinar triangle, then why weren't things explored a bit more in-depth? Was that supposed to be all ? I'm literally talking to myself now, but I get annoyed because I just achieved a moment of peace and then I read all of these and want to scream "WHERE IS THIS IS OB BRANDON, WHERE?" 

 

There is a fantastic case made earlier in this thread, that this reflects Navani/Dalinar/Evi.

Also, the "I will eventually answer that" gives me hope, that he didn't mean "next book kind of soon".

Edited December 6, 2017 by Ailvara

[mariapapadia]

2 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I had way too much time in the evening, so I wrote my supershort take on How It Should Have Ended. Feel free to mock my grammar or anything, this is therapeutical and purposefully Shalladin-less. http://archiveofourown.org/works/12935616

There is a fantastic case made earlier in this thread, that this reflects Navani/Dalinar/Evi.

Also, the "I will eventually answer that" gives me hope, that he didn't mean "next book kind of soon".

The only thing is that question was asked a year ago, so I assume we got our resolution in OB. 

I haven't got the chance to read all the previous posts, but I will take a look, thanks for pointing out ! 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, aemetha said:

This is all just my guesses, but this is my take on the whole situation.

Shallan has a fractured personality.

Veil identifies with Kaladin

Shallan, who is apparently her main identity with perhaps some additional repression thrown in, identifies with Adolin.

The love triangle was a plot device intended to demonstrate on Shallan's part a choice to integrate into her main personality, rather than further move toward the alternate personality.

At the same time, the device helped to show that Kaladin, who is incredibly stubborn, can soften his feelings for a person. Shallan in many ways embodies all the things he hates. Lighteyed, deceitful, arrogant etc. The plot device showed that he can come to accept a relationship with her as a friend, and the romance angle was a vehicle to explain why he even bothered to learn enough about her for that step.

As for the future direction, this is what I think, and this will likely not be pleasant to read for fans of Adolin so if you're feeling particularly sensitive, look away from the spoiler.

  Reveal hidden contents

I think Adolin is going to get horribly slaughtered, thus creating a crisis for Shallan which threatens to throw her back into the whole regression thing. I think Shallan will in some respect be responsible for his death. I don't think they will have a child as it's erroneous to the plot. Adolin is not a POV character, but much attention has been given to raising his esteem in the eyes of the POV characters, and indeed the reader. For a persons death to have particular meaning in fiction that person needs to be meaningful to the readers. Think Ned Stark here - he's actually a brilliant example because they are held up to be very similar, likeable characters.

So, that's my take on the whole situation.

Yes, this is very identical with what I've been thinking in the last days, especially after @DeployParachute brought up the idea of 

(Spoiler for those with a particular sensitivity regarding Adolin)

Spoiler

Adolin dying, because he could be easily pulled without damaging the main narrative, but huge impact for our main characters.

The post in question:

Particularly your observation regarding which personalities are attracted to whom I very much agree with.

[Starla]

@mariapapadia Your WOB about Shallan's innate flaring passion reminds me of this wonderful passage from OB Chapter 30:

Quote

She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

I loved this when I read it, and was looking forward to seeing this Shallan emerge throughout the book. I don't think we ever got any more of it, but the WOB you posted gives me hope that we'll see her again at some point in the future.  

@PhineasGage I am highly impressed by your detailed thesis and ability to throw up a website in a day. Aren't you in med school too? Wow.  I haven't read the whole thing, but I skipped down and read the Carriage Ride chapter, which is one of my favorite chapters in WOR. Though I'm not necessarily a Shalladin shipper, I always thought the scene where Hoid encourages Kaladin to flirt with Shallan was somehow significant. As you mentioned, he seems to always show up at important moments and has an ulterior motive for everything he says and does. This was one of the things in WOR that made me go hmmm. I also noticed that both Kaladin and Shallan went looking for him when they were at their low points (Kal in WOR, Shallan in OB). He wasn't around for either, but it shows that they both respect him and have some sort of connection with him. 

I also meant to comment on the Urithiru drawing someone mentioned a few pages back. That is my absolute favorite drawing the book! Being an architecture junkie I am fascinated by Urithiru, and seeing my man Kal in the drawing made me more excited than I care to admit. I think this is our first canon drawing of him. Even if it's only from behind, I'll take what I can get. 

[maxal]

4 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

My opinion, from a literary perspective is that if we want Adolin to live, he's going to have to be brought low somehow (even if it is of his own doing). He had spent all his time on screen up high, with nothing to challenge the fact that everyone likes him, including all of us readers.  If he isn't brought low, then he's going to have himself a trip to the hacked fabled Tranquiline Halls. 

I refuse to believe his presence is not going to be significantly meaningful to the future plot of these novels. I refuse to believe that Adolin can just be the "good good good guy" that serves as the normal, mostly prefect counterpoint to every other characters growth and storylines. Out of the secondary POV characters, he had the most screen time.  He's either going to have to come to a reckoning over something significant as a result of his own decisions, character, and agency, or he's going to die. My money is on the latter, as he doesn't seem especially introspective about long term consequences of his actions, nor acknowledgement of the (albeit minute) darker side of his own nature.

 

I wanted to answer to this both because this is a subject which is dear me and because I fear we may trespassing the dim limit in between readers expectations and author's intend.

Those who have been following me or read me know I absolutely love Adolin's character. I find he has a hidden complexity which is both touching, refreshing and interesting as it does fall within the realm of mental illness as with our other characters. Instead, it falls within normal hardships (or semi-normal) hardships considering the circumstances into which he has been forced to live his life. I thought the idea of a character, seemingly normal and perfect, would show the lighter side of life triggered difficulties by expressing more natural and recurrent behavioral patterns than those found within the remaining of the cast. As such, I never thought Adolin would develop any crippling disabilities nor life impacting illness such as sociopathy, alcoholism, depression or identity disorder, but I thought his character would show us good, decent normal reactions to increased stress levels and difficulty of adaptation in a world which moves too fast for him to adapt. I wanted to read it because people do not need to have mental illnesses to react to events nor do people with mental illnesses are the only ones to thrones on the palmares of hardships. I wanted this kind of diversity being put into SA and it came with Adolin's character. 

In short, I wanted to read one character struggle without those struggles needing to be linked to one mental illness or another, just struggles. I have not hidden the fact I found Shallan's arc too much for me within OB, I have not hidden the fact I didn't like the fact Brandon chose to give her the issues she developed in OB. It was too much for me and, no matter how realistic it may be, I just stopped wanting every single character I was reading to have one mental illness or another. I just do not find the topic of mental illnesses interesting enough to power through a whole book focusing on just that. 

I wanted more normal people, with realistic struggles evolving within this amazing world, not just people with crippling never to heal mental illnesses which are always going to make them slip backward every two books. I was fine with where each character was at the end of WoR, but I am not fine with Shallan's development nor am I fine with Dalinar too strong reaction to everything. Adolin is being excused from having reactions because he is a "hardened soldier", then how come have we read a stronger arc on Dalinar, a much more hardened soldier, feeling guilty he did not kill a boy of 6? How come Adolin breaking his father's code, knowing Dalinar is more important to Adolin than Gavilar was to Dalinar, isn't the topic of at least one paragraph?

 

The answer lies within the author's intend with Adolin's character. What was it? Contrast. He wanted someone who's not broken, someone who would not break in front of hardships no matter what they may be. He had Dalinar break down pathetically after torching the Rift (despite him having done equally worst horrors, this one broke him so bad he never recovered), he couldn't afford to have Adolin break down over Sadeas. He couldn't afford to have Adolin wonder about what may happen to him because Shallan's inner head issues took over the narrative.

As such Brandonr chose to plot and narrate his story in a way I find less interesting then I thought I would after the first two books. In the case of Adolin's character, if WoR ended up in a way allowing us to speculate on numerous future story arcs for him, I do think this is not the case for OB.

Knowing he had killed Sadeas allowed us to wonder if Adolin would be killed, exiled, punished, disowned. It allowed us to wonder if it thrust into a direction where he'll alienate himself from his family or if he'd remain loyal. There were so many possiblities all more fascinating one from the other, but this isn't what the author chose to write. Therefore, instead of exploring the complexity he had built into the character, without having tap into it yet, Brandon has chosen the path which led Adolin towards a very standard story arc.

The Adolin we read into OB will not tolerate harm done to his family, he will kill enemies from his father, if he feels there is a need for it, but he will not allow those deaths to weight on him. The Adolin will read will not allow outside events distract him from his focus and he will never take harm done to him as a reason to react. He praised his father on his "fatherly skills" when, by all means, he should be angry at him: we can slap Adolin a thousand times and he will never react because as long as it is about him, he'll stand strong.

Adolin's purpose in this story is thus to provide the normal "good" guy's viewpoint, the good "steady" guy's viewpoint who's strong when they falter, but never falters himself. The man who unassumingly takes the lead when needed, but never complains when others do so. The man who can reflect on how terrible it is he is forced to kill his compatriotes, but will not allow those thoughts to stop him. The man who's just never affected enough by things being thrown at him, be they injuries or else, to distract him from his task.

Now Brandon gave him something to do, bond with Maya which is something readers have wanted to read, but since it didn't come hand in hand with a character arc, it feels dim and this may have been the author's intend all along. Of course, many readers are satisfied with this approach and appreciate it as is, but I personally wish Brandon had taken a different take on his story. 

As such, the idea Adolin needs to die to become more interesting or fail or have hardships which actually affect him does not hold the road within the structure and the narration Brandon seems to want for SA. His purpose as a character merely is to be the lighter viewpoint: his character was never meant to struggle, not significantly and, as such, all speculations of him going, once again evil, are incredibly unlikely to happen.

Adolin is not evil: he is a shinning beacon of perfection. He is not a whitespine in dormancy waiting to strike: he is not the Blackthorn. He's just a guy who will protect the father he cannot see in any other light than a glorious one against all threads and will never bat an eye at it, because he will always feel he needs to do those things. He has no guilt and without guilt, Odium has NO hold. Adolin is just about the farther away from Odium's character we currently has: he is 100% assuming.

What does it mean in terms of narrative? Not much. It means Adolin will likely keep on being used as the lighter of all viewpoints, used to crack jokes when the tension is high, used to be funny when the other characters are grave and if he has a few graver moments, they will not pan out into much because such is not his character's purpose.

 

I understand the desire to refuse to believe this may be it, but I do think this is reality, hence I am saying we are walking on the line in between the author's intends and readers expectations. Adolin could be so much more into this story, but what we have seen is likely what we'll get within future books unless Brandon makes a 180 and takes a very firm commitment to write more of Adolin. I have however waited 4 years for him to do so: he didn't. His intends are different and since this is his story, well there is nothing I can do about it but wish he had changed his mind.

[mariapapadia]

34 minutes ago, Starla said:

@mariapapadia Your WOB about Shallan's innate flaring passion reminds me of this wonderful passage from OB Chapter 30:

I loved this when I read it, and was looking forward to seeing this Shallan emerge throughout the book. I don't think we ever got any more of it, but the WOB you posted gives me hope that we'll see her again at some point in the future.  

@PhineasGage I am highly impressed by your detailed thesis and ability to throw up a website in a day. Aren't you in med school too? Wow.  I haven't read the whole thing, but I skipped down and read the Carriage Ride chapter, which is one of my favorite chapters in WOR. Though I'm not necessarily a Shalladin shipper, I always thought the scene where Hoid encourages Kaladin to flirt with Shallan was somehow significant. As you mentioned, he seems to always show up at important moments and has an ulterior motive for everything he says and does. This was one of the things in WOR that made me go hmmm. I also noticed that both Kaladin and Shallan went looking for him when they were at their low points (Kal in WOR, Shallan in OB). He wasn't around for either, but it shows that they both respect him and have some sort of connection with him. 

I also meant to comment on the Urithiru drawing someone mentioned a few pages back. That is my absolute favorite drawing the book! Being an architecture junkie I am fascinated by Urithiru, and seeing my man Kal in the drawing made me more excited than I care to admit. I think this is our first canon drawing of him. Even if it's only from behind, I'll take what I can get. 

I know! When i first read that chapter with Shallan it gave me goosebumps, thinking we will have an "unchained" version of her! I do hope we'll get to see that & her explore this 'passionate', 'raw' Shallan we were hinted at.

Haha! I know what you mean!  it's been a while since i sketched something outside of work or university and as a soon to be architect, that made me wanna start again! I m actually planning to use the Christmas break to play with different stuff and scenes i had in my head from OB. We also have the American cover of WoR as a canon drawing of him, or am i getting that wrong?

Edited December 6, 2017 by mariapapadia

[aemetha]

9 minutes ago, maxal said:

Adolin is not evil: he is a shinning beacon of perfection.

I couldn't disagree with this more. Adolin is the only character in the series to demonstrate true sociopathy as far as having no remorse for his crime goes. However vile Sadeas was, Adolin's action was morally wrong. He is far from perfect, he has no self-control and no remorse for the consequences of that. That is not to say that Adolin is not likeable, many deeply disturbed individuals are likeable, but he is certainly not well adjusted or a shining beacon of perfection. 

[maxal]

22 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I couldn't disagree with this more. Adolin is the only character in the series to demonstrate true sociopathy as far as having no remorse for his crime goes. However vile Sadeas was, Adolin's action was morally wrong. He is far from perfect, he has no self-control and no remorse for the consequences of that. That is not to say that Adolin is not likeable, many deeply disturbed individuals are likeable, but he is certainly not well adjusted or a shining beacon of perfection. 

I couldn't disagree more with your statement on Adolin being a sociopath: sociopathy requires one to have no moral conscience and a lack of social responsibility. Yes, Adolin doesn't feel remorse over killing Sadeas, but this does not make him a sociopath: Dalinar doesn't feel remorse over the soldiers he killed during his blood rage either. Adolin shows social conscience on various other instances such as when he saves the boy, when he cares for other human beings, worst when Adolin killed Sadeas, he did it for Dalinar.

On Adolin psych 101, he will NOT tolerate any harm be it physical or psychological or theoretical done to his mighty glorious father no matter what it may be. As soon as Dalinar's safety, well-being, grandness and how others are viewing Dalinar are concerned, Adolin will do ANYTHING to prevent it from being stained. This is exactly the unhealthy relationship I wanted OB to focus some on by having Adolin being the focus on it and not Dalinar. 

As for my statement, it was meant to be ironic. Adolin is not a shining beacon of perfection but, as far as I can tell, it is the author's intend to write him as such, to present him as such and to use him as such. What more the character could be is likely to remain within the pages of this forum.   

[Starla]

50 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Haha! I know what you mean!  it's been a while since i sketched something outside of work or university and as a soon to be architect, that made me wanna start again! I m actually planning to use the Christmas break to play with different stuff and scenes i had in my head from OB. We also have the American cover of WoR as a canon drawing of him, or am i getting that wrong?

Okay you're my favorite person today.  If you feel like sharing any of your drawings, I would love to see them. I love architectural drawings like Shallan loves shalebark and chasmfiends. 

I don't really consider the WOR Kaladin to be canon. Brandon has said that he didn't want to challenge Michael Whelan's drawing even though Kaladin looks more caucasian on the cover than the typical Alethi (Hawaiian/Asian mix). I do think he nailed the rockbuds though.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Starla
clarity

[maxal]

Just now, Starla said:

Okay you're my favorite person today.  If you feel like sharing any of your drawings, I would love to see them. I love architectural drawings like Shallan loves shalebark and chasmfiends. 

I don't really consider the WOR Kaladin to be canon. Brandon has said that he didn't want to challenge Michael Whelan's drawing even though Kaladin looks more caucasian than the typical Alethi (Hawaiian/Asian mix). I do think he nailed the rockbuds though.

I don't understand the last comment: Kaladin is a typical Alethi, he should look like a very typical Alethi. It is Adolin and Renarin who look more caucassian than the average Alethi because of their caucassian mother.

[aemetha]

What is not experiencing remorse over committing a murder if not a lack of moral conscience and social responsibility? I actually don't believe Adolin is a true sociopath though, because he does demonstrate aspects that are inconsistent with it, but that particular instance I quoted is an example of sociopathy as an adjective, rather than him being a sociopath as a noun. The main fault I see with him is he demonstrates a consistent lack of impulse control.

I disagree about Dalinar not feeling remorse. Dalinar does feel remorse about the men he murdered, just not those he killed in battle - because that isn't murder, it's war. There is a moral and social responsibility distinction between those acts. Dalinar is a soldier, and the mindset of a soldier clearly differentiates those issues, because without doing so they cannot perform that role and at the same time be functioning members of their own society.

I do get where you're coming from. You obviously enjoy Adolins character very much, and that's perfectly understandable, we are all drawn to particular characters that we like. Please understand that I intend this to be constructive, not critical, but I think you may have developed unreasonable expectations prior to the books release. Adolin is not, and never has been a main POV character, and it was clearly stated that this was Dalinar's book. Adolin is not slated to have a book, and while I agree with you, there is a lot of room to explore the character because despite us interpreting him very differently, I think in either case it's interesting to explore. I don't think we will ever get a satisfactory character arc that fully explores his potential, because to do so removes some of the focus from the main POV characters. What I see happening with his development is his being made to be likeable, but flawed and so relate-able, which is what leads me to the conclusion I arrived at in the spoiler of my post above. Again, there's nothing wrong with hoping for what you want to see from this character, but I don't know how realistic it would be to expect it.

[Starla]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I don't understand the last comment: Kaladin is a typical Alethi, he should look like a very typical Alethi. It is Adolin and Renarin who look more caucassian than the average Alethi because of their caucassian mother.

Sorry I wasn't clear... I meant he looks too caucasian on the WOR cover. He should look more Alethi with darker skin. This is why I don't consider the cover canon. Perhaps some people do, but that's not how I picture him in my head.