[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Diomedes]

18 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

irc, she then resurrects them as they die. I don't think they are actually being destroyed. I agree tho that she is "doing it wrong" and needs to do more like what Wit does in the epilogue to lightweave safely on Roshar.

but she is not simply lightwaving. She is combining lightweaving with soulcasting. Those are not simply illusions. It is explicitly stated, that a part of her is dying. Which means a part of her goes to the spiritual realm. She cannot just resurrect them. Instead they are "reborn and she sends them out again", which means she uses a new part of her soul to animate the living illusions. If she could recreate the souls, why is she speaking of them dying, not just vanishing and returning to her? Dying implies going away forever, leaving the physical and cognitive realm. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Diomedes

[PhineasGage]

11 minutes ago, SLNC said:

. But what I meant with fake is, that we see, that he doesn't just see her as another Tien. He is genuinely interested in her... and not just in brotherly way.

Oh yes I agree - sorry I misunderstood. He does link her with Tien multiple times (the only person he does that with which is important) but he also links her with his mother and father at least once. Just because you can see traits that remind you of loved ones doesn't mean the feelings have to be the same at all. But you are more likely to like someone that reminds you of someone you love because you already know how to interact with them positively.

I actually liken Kaladin's "acceptance" to the way Jane Eyre tries to suppress her feelings for Mr Rochester in "Jane Eyre" by Charlotte Bronte. I suppose I should put this in spoilers tho if you haven't read Jane Eyre what are you doing with your life? *ahem* Sorry I have strong feelings on this matter apparently.

Spoiler

I can't be bothered to quote directly because it takes several long passages, but when Jane realises that she is falling for Mr Rochester she goes out of her way to point out why Blanche Ingram is a much better match for Mr Rochester - ie because Rochester and Blanche are social equals, blanche is beautiful and accomplished etc etc etc. Anyway Jane and Rochester are separated during this time and by the time he comes back she thinks she is perfectly over him. Of course he turns up and she realises she isn't at all over him and that Blanche is awful. So I don't think Blanche is a good analogue for either Adolin or Kaladin, because she is proud, conceited, selfish and unkind, but otherwise the parallel works. Jane never assumes she can compete with Blanche and acknowledges that Blanche and Rochester will likely marry and she just accepts it in her own way. It is only when she is pushed to the brink of despair by Rochester that she even admits her feelings to him. And of course, he returns them because he is actually a bit of a bastard and was just toying with Blanche to make Jane jealous all along. Again, not likely to reflect SA but an interesting aside that a good hero has flaws and can actually be a terrible human being but still be "heroic".

@SLNC thanks for finding that WoB !

3 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

 Instead they are "reborn and she sends them out again", which means she uses a new part of her soul to animate the living illusions

I see reborn as the same as resurrection personally. I view it in the same way as the Fused are reborn in the Everstorm. They never truly die. I don't think she is destroying her soul in the way you are describing but I think he soulcasing may have made her vulnerable to fragmentation in the first place by dividing herself up like this.

[insert_anagram_here]

22 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I had a go at this when I wrote my WoR essay

Have you published this anywhere? If yes please share

22 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Sorry, I'm thick so I'm not sure what you are getting at here - please ELI5 for me?

I was referring to what @invisbleblue said earlier in the thread, marked below in bold.

14 hours ago, invisbleblue said:

In my opinion women in this series have been represented in a very unique light, one that has given me a new perspective. Where some of us men might feel an innate desire to protect and provide for and shatter at the sight of a crying woman, some women might have a similar compulsion towards broken men or men who are somehow wrong or rough on the edges, to fix them or make them whole. A purpose whose reward and compulsion could be greater than stability and the safety of comfort. Dalinar, Navani and Evi are all painted in this light. A broken and quite evil of a man backed by women who could have gotten a much more comfortable accommodation, later to be shaped by these same women into something greater. The women in this book are very cultivation like.

It reminded me of this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171/#e8310

Quote

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

As you look at the Double Eye, is there a pattern for Honor and Cultivation's disparate influences on each Surge or Order?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

There are philosophers who think that there are, but-- it is more straightforward than those philosophers think it is.

I think that Sanderson is deliberately is associating his male main characters to Honour and his female main characters to Cultivation. Maybe there is a hidden meaning regarding the lore to it?

 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

but she is not simply lightwaving. She is combining lightweaving with soulcasting. Those are not simply illusions. It is explicitly stated, that a part of her is dying. Which means a part of her goes to the spiritual realm. She cannot just resurrect them. Instead they are "reborn and she sends them out again", which means she uses a new part of her soul to animate the living illusions. If she could recreate the souls, why is she speaking of them dying, not just vanishing and returning to her? Dying implies going away forever, leaving the physical and cognitive realm. 

I don't know if you've got the notification, but you could easily see it as figurative speech from Shallan's perspective. Then again, I don't want to dismiss the idea! I just don't see any evidence, that she actually lost part of her soul/spiritweb. Her fragmentation is all in her head/mind (as seen by the WoB I posted above, her spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm is considered to be one individual). I think, that it would be a good question for Brandon to ask, if Shallan combines her Lightweaving with Soulcasting, but I think, that you'd get a RAFO

16 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

but I think he soulcasing (actually Lightweaving? :D) may have made her vulnerable to fragmentation in the first place by dividing herself up like this.

That I agree with (if you mean Lightweaving... which I think you do, since Shallan hardly does any Soulcasting yet). Veil was a result of her Lightweaving and the way she modeled Veil was that she added a part of herself to Veil. I don't mean that realmatic, but just how she constructed Veil. The foundation is a part of Shallan. Then the trauma came and her mind fragmented more easily, since she already kind of had done a big part of the work by creating a persona based off a part of herself. And thus the persona evolved into an alter.

Edited December 5, 2017 by SLNC

[Diomedes]

17 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I see reborn as the same as resurrection personally. I view it in the same way as the Fused are reborn in the Everstorm. They never truly die. I don't think she is destroying her soul in the way you are describing but I think he soulcasing may have made her vulnerable to fragmentation in the first place by dividing herself up like this.

Hmmm. The Fused need the sacrifice of a host-soul and mind though to keep on living. I guess the passage can be interpreted both in my way and yours. It would just make so much sense, if Shallan had to sacrifice a tiny part of her soul, if she wants to do this. I mean think about the strategical advantage of ten lightweavers well supplied with stormlight, they could raise 10 armies almost indefintly. The enemy would never know,  where the real soildiers are. And yes I know Amarams soildiers were blinded by the thrill. Thats why they couldn`t make out the illusions. But still.    

Edited December 5, 2017 by Diomedes

[PhineasGage]

20 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I think that Sanderson is deliberately is associating his male main characters to Honour and his female main characters to Cultivation. Maybe there is a hidden meaning regarding the lore to it?

Ok, I can immediately see some pieces of info that might be of use here but I can't tie them together yet:

All the male Heralds are on the top-side of the double eye diagram and relate to the following orders: WS, SW, BS, WR, SB  (anyone else surprised how much those initials mirror each other....?)

All the female Heralds are on the bottom side of the double eye diagram and relate to the following orders: DB, ED, TW, LW, EC,  (much less mirroring so I'm probably reading too much into this).

We know all spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation but some align more with one side than the other. I think we could argue from what we know of the BS, WR, and SB that these feel more "Honor" like and EC, LW and ED all feel more Cultivation like. On top of that the honorspren and cultivation spren fit the pattern.

I am just thinking aboout the genders of our KR (as far as I can tell all are cis-gendered so I'm not going to go into gender identity here for simplicity at this stage), Aside from Renarin and Venli, all our Radiants are the same gender as their Herald. Renarin and Venli are "new" in that a corrupted spren has never bonded with a human before as far as we know and no uncorrupted spren has bonded (and overwritten the spren of) a Listener. On top of that, I believe that the spren for most of our Knights (not Dalinar who's spren is unique anyway) the bonded spren identifies as the opposite gender of the radiant concerned. Again, Renarin and Venli break this (Timbre is female right?) Note that this does not seem to have to be true because Ym was a TW and as far as we know, his was a normal spren. But then Stump is female and fits the pattern again. Not sure this is pure coincidence?

Ok, I've run out of steam for now - anything else jump out at anyone?

11 minutes ago, Diomedes said:

Hmmm. The Fused need the sacrifice of a host-soul and mind though to keep on living. I guess the passage can be interpreted both in my way and yours. It would just make so much sense, if Shallan had to sacrifice a tiny part of her soul, if she wants to do this

I see your point, but it implies that Lightweavers are going to live very short lives during desolations. How much soul can you really afford to lose after all? I also think that if there were suitable soul-less bodies on Roshar, most of the Fused could probably use them - it is just that those cannot actually exist long enough to be useful. As I said, her constant use of her own soul is important, and is very different to what Wit does in Kholinar (he acts like a mirror or a lens to reflect and focus otherpeople's pain, rather than his own) despite Rosharan lightweaving being closest to the Yolish original (per Ars Arcanum). I think she is damaging herself, but likely it is reparable - particularly as stormlight can heal the spirit web. Perhaps Shallan is slicing bits off but as they "die" her stormlight reattaches them because she views her soul as whole (her mind might be broken, but not her soul I think in her own perception).

 

EDIT @insert_anagram_here Re -essay - I haven't published but I've finished editing it and got a proof-read done. There are likely still some minor issues like typos but I can't change too much now because it was written pre-OB (sometime last year iirc) and I don't want to colour it with post OB analysis. I'd rather do a new essay to add to it.  I plan on getting it up on a website soon so people can read it if they like but be warned it is long. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by PhineasGage
extra thoughts

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I plan on getting it up on a website soon so people can read it if they like but be warned it is long. 

Please... we're excited about 1000+ page tomes.

[Ailvara]

56 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Yes I agree. I think he has a serious possibility of being Odium's champion as a result. Note that the idea of a champion is still going according to Mr T at the end. Dalinar "recognised" something in the eyes of the champion he saw in the vision. Whilst I think it also hinted that he could be the champion (and nearly was) I don't think that's it over and done. Renarin is invisible to Odium afaik so it can't be him. That, to me anyway, leaves Kaladin and Adolin. Kaladin isn't going to be destroyed by Odium imo - he's immune to the Thrill so likely safer from Odium than Adolin is (who we know does feel the Thrill) in all kinds of ways. On top of that Adolin can be impulsive and reckless in a way that Kaladin rarely is. If SHallan's revelation hurts Adolin (seems likely) then he could go down that route. 

2

It just hit me, how neatly many of our complaints would be addressed if only leaving Sadeas' murder plot aside was intentional. Wouldn't that leave Adolin somewhat in the place of all those who gave up the guilt for their actions and fell to Odium as a result. "I will take responsibility for what I have done" just sounds so bitter in the context of Adolin.

[ScavellTane]

I'm going to jump in here and ask, has Brandon confirmed that there won't be a baby in the next book? If there 'might' be one, has anyone put this into their consideration?

[Ailvara]

1 minute ago, ScavellTane said:

I'm going to jump in here and ask, has Brandon confirmed that there won't be a baby in the next book? If there 'might' be one, has anyone put this into their consideration?

No WoB as far as I know. And it has been discussed somewhere here, but which page exactly, huh, that's the question.

[PhineasGage]

@ScavellTane so there is no WoB so a baby is definitely a possibility. Given the projected timeskip of one year, a baby born to Adolin and Shallan would be somewhere in the region of 3 months old at most. 

To summarise the arguments that were made previously (that we can definitely revisit now) - some members here feel that a baby would be the worst possible situation for all concerned - including the kid. Some feel it would rob Shallan of agency (it would be difficult to manage her time as a KR and a very young child), some feel that it would be very bad for the child and SHallan given her very fractured mental state, some feel it would be unfair on Adolin because he would likely have to take a carer role for both his wife and his child, rather than sharing the carer role with Shallan. 

Others feel that a baby would be the best thing for Shallan because it would give her agency as long as she chose motherhood, some feel she would benefit mentally by being less introspective/selfish because she would focus on a  baby. Yet others feel it would be beneficial to the couple as a way of binding them together more closely.

If you want more detail I would recommend reading up - probably somewhere in the pages 20-30 iirc. If not, please add your thoughts to the matter. I think you'll find the majority of the members regularly posting here are anti-the idea of a baby but if there is good evidence that a baby might be good then we'd be happy to hear it. 

@SLNC Ha - no, its 58pages  - nowhere near 1000. I am sure I missed plenty of things that could be considered as evidence (for either side - esp Adolin as I didn't take into account the "light" link) so I'd be very happy to get feedback. I'll link it here and maybe put it in my signature (if I make one) once its up. I just need to get round to putting it up - but I need my SO to help me do that because I haven't got a clue!

[ScavellTane]

But this..

“Yes, from what I understand, she spent the seven months she was with child entertaining each and every military man she could find, in the hopes that something of them would stick to you.”

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

But this..

“Yes, from what I understand, she spent the seven months she was with child entertaining each and every military man she could find, in the hopes that something of them would stick to you.”

Not sure where you are heading with this? A Rosharan year is 10 months long. So 3 months is about right if she gets pregnant immediately.

I assume you don't think Shallan is heading in this direction?

 

EDIT: finally no longer a son of honor - Now I am King's Wit. Call me Hoid  no more rep for me please (jk -i love getting rep, its like validation for my terrible life choices)

Edited December 5, 2017 by PhineasGage
Added thought

[ScavellTane]

Crap, my bad.

I'm not against it, as it would be another character for the back 5 books with Gavinor and Orodin.

[Guest]

I am against it, because I don't think it is possible for Shallan to focus on both her child and being a Lightweaver.

Plus, I am against it for the child. I'm not saying, that a "cured" Shallan would be a bad mother. A fractured Shallan like we have now? Almost certainly.

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, ScavellTane said:

Crap, my bad.

I'm not against it, as it would be another character for the back 5 books with Gavinor and Orodin.

There is only going to be approximately 5-6 years between the back 5 and the front 5 (iirc from a WoB I can't find) . Even if there is a total of 2 years worth of timeskips between now and the end of book 5 (seems unlikely to be more) that is only 8 years at most. That would leave these children between the ages of 8 and 11. I can't see BS pushing them into fighing in any great extent. Not only that, but we won't get flashbacks from them (at least they arent slated to be flashback characters) so they aren't likely to take on "Main character" roles anyway. 

[insert_anagram_here]

55 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

But this..

“Yes, from what I understand, she spent the seven months she was with child entertaining each and every military man she could find, in the hopes that something of them would stick to you.”

This is what Jasnah said about Amaram's mother, so I wouldn't take it literally. It could be a distasteful attempt at insult towards him, as in 'you were born prematurely, no wonder you aren't perfectly okay in the head'

 

As for Shallan having a baby, I can see it as a possible catalyst in moving the narrative towards a problematic marriage.

Edited December 5, 2017 by insert_anagram_here

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, insert_anagram_here said:

This is what Jasnah said about Amaram's mother, so I wouldn't take it literally. It could be an distasteful attempt at insult towards him, as in 'you were born prematurely, no wonder you aren't perfectly okay in the head'

 

As for Shallan having a baby, I can see it as a possible catalyst in moving the narrative towards a problematic marriage.

I think it is just that because the Rosharan year is longer, and the months are longer, 7months on Roshar = 9 Earth months. Without proper anti-natal care a 7 month old foetus would be hard pushed to survive at all - their lungs are not nearly developed enough and they cant control their body temp or blood sugar well.

[ScavellTane]

For some reason, it was 20 years in my head.

[Blacksmithki]

1 minute ago, ScavellTane said:

For some reason, it was 20 years in my head.

I was under the impression it was 15

[Rainier]

12 hours ago, SLNC said:

So, I've been brooding about Jasnah's ketek on the occasion of Shallan's wedding.

Quote

United, new beginnings sing: "Defying truth, love. Truth defy!" Sing beginnings, new unity.

I love the keteks we've had so far, and I appreciate your bringing this one up, especially since it was written for Shallan's wedding.

There's something bout it that raises my hackles, and I think it's the combination of ending with new beginnings and the phrase about truth defy/defying truth.

Shallan is the last person who should be denying truth, but she's the number one most likely (OK, #3 behind Nale and Szeth) at defying truth. She refuses to accept the truth (her dissociation, her multiple personalities) constantly. Not sure what else it means, but by having the defy-truth-love-truth-defy turnaround and by ending on new unity it makes me think somethings amiss. 

Again, I'm with you in interpreting this as Brandon sneaking in hints, not Jasnah perceiving anything untoward.

7 hours ago, DimChatz said:

because without him she "fades" (I still almost vomit in my mouth when thinking of that line

At what point will it be a good thing if she fades?  Life's not so bad as a drab.

 

7 hours ago, DimChatz said:

Another thing I want to address is that I'm fine with an author intentionally misdirecting me (i.e. the big Mistborn misdirection), but that feels more like deceiving and toying with me.

A good distinction. Misdirection is one thing, but you're right that this doesn't feel like misdirection. It's too obvious and consistent to be misdirection. If it really were just a smokescreen, I would have expected the hints to die off as we progressed through the book as the real ending asserted itself.

 

5 hours ago, DimChatz said:

I hope it's just Kaladin trying, and potentialy failing, to handle his feelings as to avoid future jealousy

It wouldn't be the first time we see Kaladin refusing to acknowledge his emotions, or lying to himself about them. Good thing his bond doesn't rely on self-awareness.

 

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Adolin is not personified in quite the same way though if I had to choose something I'd choose light - especially sunlight, and this is more obvious in OB than it was previously.

This is my biggest struggle when trying to tie Adolin to Shallan. Adolin simply doesn't have the personification or the symbolism surrounding him. Good catch on the sunlight, I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for these mentions on the re-read.

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Especially given the "Winds Alight" (Wind = Kal, Light = Shallan) ketek from Navani in WoR. I

I love me some keteks and I'm loving your connection here. I actually 'spoiled' the book for myself because I couldn't wait until the end to read the entire ketek. 

 

4 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

He just doesn't feel worthy (yet) so he isn't going to fight for her. I don't think he'll actually drop the atraction as much as he'd like to make himself believe. I feel we may see Shallan and Kaladin separated in the time skip so each thinks they have gotten over each other and then they get pushed together again and thus sparks fly.

This would be consistent with his character (lying to himself, refusing to admit to his feelings, pretending he's fine when he's not) and it would make the break serve a purpose in the narrative. You can't have sparks fly all the time, but you definitely can have sparks fly the first time the characters see each other in months. However, this is the most wishful of my wishful thinking. There are many, many reasons to put that break in there and many different narrative purposes it can serve. 

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Please... we're excited about 1000+ page tomes.

And 42+ page forum topics....

Edited December 5, 2017 by Rainier
More responses

[ScavellTane]

 

Quote

 

Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]

Time-wise, where do the events of Bands of Mourning happen with respect to Words of Radiance?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

So, Bands of Mourning, all the Wax & Wayne books take place after Stormlight 5, but I'm not sure if it happens after or before Stormlight 6, It'll have to wait, because there's a time jump between Stormlight 5 and 6 that I haven't exactly defined in the timeline yet.

 

Welp..

[Aleksiel]

Casually stopping by without reading much, but I saw baby being mentioned. Without discussing whether it would be good or not for Shallan, I think it's the natural course unless she and Adolin decided to not have one during Desolation. She has already wondered what their children's hair would look like, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see a child next book. May be a girl we'll ship with Oroden in the second five 

[PhineasGage]

So originally it was meant to be 10-15 years : http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1125#36

But As you pointed out that seems to have changed since because it depends where he gets to in terms of overall arc by the end of book 5. I can't find anything recent on this.

If it is 15 years, that would make Renarin (a confirmed character) in his late 20s-early 30s, Jasnah in her 50s, Shallan about 32, Kaladin about 35 and Adolin 37.

The kids would range from 15-17 years old. I don't think they'd be main characters. 

Funny, I could have sworn  read a WoB that it was slated to be 5-6 years but i cant find it so I must have dreamed it.

EDIT: added to reply

2 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

She has already wondered what their children's hair would look like, so I wouldn't be too surprised to see a child next book. May be a girl we'll ship with Oroden in the second five

No. Just....no. Their children would have really weird hair. I mean, red, blonde and black? They wouldn't be able to wear anything because it would clash - Adolin wouldn't stand for that  

Edited December 5, 2017 by PhineasGage
Added thought

[Aleksiel]

3 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

No. Just....no. Their children would have really weird hair. I mean, red, blonde and black? They wouldn't be able to wear anything because it would clash - Adolin wouldn't stand for that  

I've wondered about that, too  Good thing their father has a trusted tailor to create an appropriate wardrobe 

Joke aside, I think it will be just two colored hair - black from Adolin's alethi side (the blond isn't that dominant iri gold hair, so I think it will lose genetically) and red from Shallan.