[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

@SLNC I agree - and he shows such empathy - he says he knows how it feels to be locked up and that it must be worse for Syl. He puts her first if he can now, even if it gets him locked up for more time.... *sob* 

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

@SLNC Really good catch with the bond between Pattern and Shallan deteriorating. It makes me think, how will it affect Pattern? Syl got progressively more playful and childlike, when her bond with Kaladin was deteriorating, becoming more and more like a windspren. When we saw Pattern first in WoR, when his bond with Shallan wasn't very strong, he was acting imbecilic (in Shallan's words) and was confused about the world, so his lack of lines and input towards the end might indicate a relapse. Here what I'm thinking, though, about the line "This is good for you Shallan": Syl was getting more like a windspen, so assuming the the lower order of Cryptics are the creationspren, what if Pattern is being more and more like a creationspren? His line might just be an imitation of Shallan's thoughts at that time, as creationspren imitate things around them.

[AubreyWrites she/her]

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here.

I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing.

Agree with everything here- and a great clarification for the thread on the topic of a lot of us seemingly coming down hard in Adolin. 

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. 

Yes

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I also view Shallan as not bothering to tease Adolin (because he just didnt get it) as a form of condescension. She doesnt treat him as an equal which given that they are now married is not something that should fly.... pun somewhat intended.

Yes. And that's not to say that they both have to bee exactly at the same place on the mental landscape. Shallan obviously likes Adolin and doesn't think he is stupid as she is the one to clarify that he is mentally direct. However her Order wheels and deals in the nuances of the lie and truth. Those being so layered and relative to each person make the mentally direct person to be...unchallenging for someone of Shallan's level. I don't even think she really realizes how condescending she acts towards him. It's an unconscious reaction of her assessment of his personality. I don't think Adolin is boring personally. But I see where Shallan,whose bread and butter are subtext and nuance would find  him unchallenging. And what's the fun in challenging someone who can't compete on this particular field

@FuzzyWordsmith and @PhineasGage thanks so much for those detailed explanations- it really was facinating to read. I love how you can hope on a fandom thread like this and actually learn something new in RL. I wasn't bored at all.

5 hours ago, Egomere said:

I will second that request because damnation if it's 3 years per SA book by the time the last one is released I'm going to be Over 50 which is damnation scary...

So will I ....I'm gonna pull a Shallan and this point and repress repress repress. 

 

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

I’m of the opinion their bond is very, very frayed due to Shallan not being honest with herself...

I had this same thought. 

 

On a random note ...just to stir the pot because I can  

no one has brought up (that I have seen yet so I could totally be wrong) the fact that Kaladin is a doctor's son and in another life would have been a doctor himself. We see how he handles Renarian's epilepsy. In a culture where Renarin has 'fits' and is considered the inferior son Kaladin doesn't treat him any differently for having an unusual condition that most others look down on. In fact he inquired as to the actual diagnosis And potential treatments for him immediately. Just wanted to throw it out there.

So so often we just refer to Kaladin in the context of his role as a protector and leader but he definitely has the potential to be a great help to Shallan on her path to healing regardless of a romantic connection. Whether this comes to pass or not we will have to see. 

But we already have an example of him showing appropriate help/compassion in giving Shallan what she needs. First by treating her as one whole complete person and then by making a quip "take a stab at things" - not because he is making light of what she's going through right then but because he read the situation correctly and judged what what she needed to cope. 

So ..just sayin'...

[PhineasGage]

12 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Here what I'm thinking, though, about the line "This is good for you Shallan": Syl was getting more like a windspen, so assuming the the lower order of Cryptics are the creationspren, what if Pattern is being more and more like a creationspren? His line might just be an imitation of Shallan's thoughts at that time, as creationspren imitate things around them.

I think you have a point, but my inner pedant wants me to point out that he technically says "This is a good you, Shallan". That being said, the lack of in depth conversation between them at this moment is rather telling. Previously, Shallan and Pattern shared a close relationship, although it was defiitely based on mutual desire to learn, they still discussed lots of things. That being said, I don;t think they discussed Shallan's relationship with Adolin at all - does anyone have any recollenction of them discussing it?

That also mirrors Syl pushing Kaladin to chase after Shallan..... So many mirrors.

3 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

no one has brought up (that I have seen yet so I could totally be wrong) the fact that Kaladin is a doctor's son and in another life would have been a doctor himself. We see how he handles Renarian's epilepsy. In a culture where Renarin has 'fits' and is considered the inferior son Kaladin doesn't treat him any differently for having an unusual condition that most others look down on. In fact he inquired as to the actual diagnosis And potential treatments for him immediately. Just wanted to throw it out there.

Good Point! The attitude to epilepsy is actually very telling. Traditionally, many cultures have viewed epilepsy in a negative way. It often got associated with possession and curses. It also was associated with the divine (called "the sacred disease" by the ancient Greeks) and not always a negative thing tho generally it was assumed to be the results of evil spirits by most European cultures. Even in modern day, epileptics get short shrift and a lot of stigma attached to them. Some of this is because the disease can manifest in a large variety of ways, depending on which bit of the brain (or if all of it) is affected during a seizure. For example, fits can cause jerks of a single limb (which as Kaladin correctly says) is usually "myoclonic", through trance-like states that are technically periods of unconsciousness (note that these are not the same as Shallan's blackouts) during which the person may make odd movements with their hands and lips, or the most familar form to most people - the tonic clonic seizures.

As a point the wiki on this is pretty good from the brief look I had on it. 

I think Kaladin has a natural affinity for healing/medicine. He has learned a huge amount in a relatively short amount of time, which is even more impressive when you consider that he cannot read. Glyphs aren't the same as proper writing and it must be really hard to understand a concept with only using pictures that convey single ideas. On top of that, he naturally is able to identify a complex condition from relatively little information and bring up an appropriate treatment that has actually been prescribed. He'd get an A in my class anyway. I also loved Renarin's line on this ; "Field medicine? For epilepsy?" I lol every time I read that.

So i kinda want to bring up a few points. One, Renarin suffers stigma because of his (likely or definite?) autism and his epilepsy so he could relate at least a bit to what Shallan is going through - he also cannot always trust his own mind to back him up. Two, Adolin, having grown up with Renarin, understands how to just accept someone for who they are and let them just get on with things. Three, Kaladin is a natural healer, but likely has little experience/knowledge of mental health issues because most cultures are not good at addressing them. 

[Info_Drone-0451 he/him]

19 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

"This is a good you, Shallan"

Ah, right, I missed it.But still, he can  be reproducing and imitating Shallan's thoughts that she found a version of herself that is the right one. The phrasisng is also weird. "This is a good you, Shallan". Why not "This is good for you Shallan" which reminds me his "This is a good lie"? Why not just "This is you, Shallan" to indicate a step in the right direction, since previously Pattern seem to understand Shallan so well and seemed concerned about her multiple personalities? And what about the whole thing in the market and how he gets when she wonders if Veil killed her brothers and he worriedly asks if she can't tell? That last one just came to me while typing and it seems quite interesting.

Edited November 23, 2017 by DimChatz
Added (which reminds me his "This is a good lie")

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

And what's the fun in challenging someone who can't compete on this particular field

Absolutely and she is missing it as seen when she is talking with Kaladin. You can practically feel, that she is glad, that someone is finally asking questions again and is not just taking everything for granted... and actually seems to be interested about her theories.

Quote

“May I?” Kaladin asked, nodding toward Shallan’s sketch. She shrugged, so he took the sketchpad and studied her pictures of the flying beasts. As always, they were excellent. “What does the text say?”

“Just some theorizing,” she said, flipping back a page in her notebook. “I lost my original of this picture, so this is kind of crude. But have you ever seen something like these arrowhead spren here?”

“Yeah . . .” Kaladin said, studying her drawing of a skyeel flying with arrowhead spren moving around it. “I’ve seen them near greatshells.”

“Chasmfiends, skyeels, anything else that should be heavier than it actually is. Sailors call them luckspren on our side.” She gestured with the cup toward the front of the ship, where sailors managed the flying beasts. “They call these ‘mandras,’ but the arrowhead shapes on their heads are the same shape as luckspren. These are bigger, but I think they—or something like them—help skyeels fly.”

“Chasmfiends don’t fly.”

“They kind of do, mathematically. Bavamar did the calculations on Reshi greatshells, and found they should be crushed by their own weight.”

“Huh,” Kaladin said.

She started to get excited. “There’s more. Those mandras, they vanish sometimes. Their keepers call it ‘dropping.’ I think they must be getting pulled into the Physical Realm. It means you can never use only one mandra to pull a ship, no matter how small that ship. And you can’t take them—or most other spren—too far from human population centers on our side. They waste away and die for reasons people here don’t understand.”

“Huh. So what do they eat?”

“I’m not sure,” Shallan said. “Syl and Pattern talk about feeding off emotions, but there’s something else that . . .” 

I just can't believe how some people can't see chemistry here... Adolin and Shallan would never have this conversation and here Shallan is really in her element.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[Awesomness]

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

To be fair, I can't see Kaladin and Shallan having that one either, but we have seen him ask himself detailed questions about the world (look at the way he stays with the Parshmen in OB so he can understand them) and I am reasonably sure he asks natural history type questions in tWoK and WoR though I can't bring any to mind at this point.

Hello PhineasGage, Im here to drop you a quote

Quote

“Slay . . . the moss.” He looked at Kaladin, who just shrugged. How was he to know what a lighteyed woman meant? They were a strange breed.
“Yes,” Shallan said, standing up. “Give that moss, and the rock behind it, a good chop. As a favor for your betrothed.” (...)
Kaladin took a step after him, but then hesitated. What did Shallan find so interesting here? This woman was a puzzle, and he knew he wouldn’t be completely comfortable until he understood her. She had too much access to Adolin, and therefore Dalinar, to leave uninvestigated.
He stepped closer, looking over her shoulder as she drew. “Strata,” he said. “You’re counting the strata[…]”

“Good guess,” she said, “but this is a bad location for strata dating. The wind blows across the plateaus too strongly, and the crem doesn’t collect in pools evenly. So the strata here are erratic and inaccurate.”
Kaladin frowned, narrowing his eyes. The cross section of rock was normal cremstone on the outside, some strata visible as different shades of brown. The center of the stone, though, was white. You didn’t see white rock like that often; it had to be quarried. Which meant this was either a very strange occurrence, or . . .
“There was a structure here once,” Kaladin said. “A long time ago. It must have taken centuries for the crem to get that thick on something sticking out of the ground.”
She glanced at him. “You’re smarter than you look.” Then, turning back to her drawing, she added, “Good thing . . .”

 

Fragmento de: Sanderson, Brandon. “Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The)”. iBooks. 

 

[PhineasGage]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I just can't believe how some people can't see chemistry here... Adolin and Shallan would never have this conversation and here Shallan is really in her element.

I can't believe it took us 22 pages to remember that scene!

@Awesomness - thank you for the quote! I was looking for exactly something like that

Edited November 23, 2017 by PhineasGage

[AubreyWrites she/her]

40 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Renarin suffers stigma because of his (likely or definite?) autism and his epilepsy

Ok I'm gonna have to disagree with the autism assessment. As someone with a very close relative and in close proximity to a family member with diagnosed severe autism I can't say that I felt Renarin raised any flags on The autism spectrum for me. He definitely has a physical disability in the epilepsy and his social skills have suffered from this stigma. Also an early childhood of fatherly neglect and abusive have contributed to his sense of low self esteem. Also factor in his interests lay in the academic which is social suicide for an Alethi prince. And then factor in that he has bonded a corrupted Spren-making him even less inclined for sharing time. 

He is an introvert. Whether from natural inclination or circumstantial inclination but his ABILITY to communicate is not in question. He communicates when he wants to and shows no sign on not picking up on social cues. ( rather unlike Adolin who can be oblivious to many social cues- as evidenced by the large body of irritated ex girlfriends ) 

He doesn't mind physical contact- I can't remember the passages - will have to look it up - but he is touch/hugged/patted on the back multiple times throughout the series and shows no outward discomfort at the contact. 

He shows no hesitancy in direct conversation to meet people's eyes or participate in group conversations ( he may not be super vocal but he doesn't shy away from questions or input either) 

Further he shows a desire to belong with a group- to fit in somewhere.  From my experience, large group settings (like B4) would be completely overwhelming for someone who is autistic. The amount of overstimulation would drive an autistic person to either a) escape to a less crowded atmosphere b ) act out with coping mechanisms- usually repetitive behaviors (for example: flapping hands or repeating partiicular phrases)

Renarin does have periods of obsessive repetitive behavior - but all those episodes are linked to his interaction with Glys not to everyday situations. 

 Now the autism spectrum has been expanded to incorporate many behaviors under a large umbrella but the core behaviors of traditional autism include aversion to physical contact, inability to interprete  social cues and often particular behaviors to cope with overstimulation. The severity of these behaviors is also on a sliding scale but the markers remain constant.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by AubreyWrites
Typos

[FuzzyWordsmith]

8 minutes ago, AubreyWrites said:

Ok I'm gonna have to disagree with the autism assessment. As someone with a very close relative and in close proximity to a family member with diagnosed severe autism I can't say that I felt Renarin raised any flags on The autism spectrum for me. He definitely has a physical disability in the epilepsy and his social skills have suffered from this stigma. Also an early childhood of fatherly neglect and abusive have contributed to his sense of low self esteem. Also factor in his interests lay in the academic which is social suicide for an Alethi prince. And then factor in that he has bonded a corrupted Spren-making him even less inclined for sharing time. 

He is an introvert. Whether from natural inclination or circumstantial inclination but his ABILITY to communicate is not in question. He communicates when he wants to and shows no sign on not picking up on social cues. ( rather unlike Adolin who can be oblivious to many social cues- as evidenced by the large body of irritated ex girlfriends ) 

He doesn't mind physical contact- I can't remember the passages - will have to look it up - but he is touch/hugged/patted on the back multiple times throughout the series and shows no outward discomfort at the contact. 

He shows no hesitancy in direct conversation to meet people's eyes or participate in group conversations ( he may not be super vocal but he doesn't shy away from questions or input either) 

Further he shows a desire to belong with a group- to fit in somewhere.  From my experience, large group settings (like B4) would be completely overwhelming for someone who is autistic. The amount of overstimulation would drive an autistic person to either a) escape to a less crowded atmosphere b ) act out with coping mechanisms- usually repetitive behaviors (for example: flapping hands or repeating partiicular phrases)

Renarin does have periods of obsessive repetitive behavior - but all those episodes are linked to his interaction with Glys not to everyday situations. 

 Now the autism spectrum has been expanded to incorporate many behaviors under a large umbrella but the core behaviors of traditional autism include aversion to physical contact, inability to interprete  social cues and often particular behaviors to cope with overstimulation. The severity of these behaviors is also on a sliding scale but the markers remain constant.

 

 

So, Imma have to disagree with ya on multiple counts there. Source: I am autistic myself, formally diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. The most important piece of evidence is that we have WoB

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/227-rithmatist-denver-signing/#e7099

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Is Renarin Kholin on the autism spectrum?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Slightly—not even so much as Asperger's, but yes. *Something about it being difficult to notice/diagnose?*

So there's that. Also, I may not remember specifics, so I apologize, but he doesn't like physical contact. He gets uncomfortable whenever Rock hugs him, such as near the end of OB, when Bridge four arrives from the Oathgate. As to communication, he is stated as not making a lot of eye contact, and often starting thoughts in his head and then saying only part of it out loud. Also, the whole overstimulation in bridge 4 point: With higher spectrum autism, group stuff is not necessarily anathema. Here's the important bit: as an autistic person, group stuff becomes a lot easier if you want to be there, which he does. The important thing to remember is that autism is quite a wide spectrum, and in fact, two people on the spectrum can actually be more different than a person on and a person not on the spectrum. I personally believe Renarin is a very good example of a mildly autistic character. You usually see much more extreme examples in fiction, so it's nice to have a reminder that it is a very broad condition.

 

#renarin

[PhineasGage]

@AubreyWrites I think @FuzzyWordsmith put it best for me, although I will admit that I was basing my assumption mainly on the WoB regarding Renarin. I have limited experience with autism myself

-I am not sure of the correct word usage to describe things within autism - so if I use the wrong terms I apologise.  I have one friend with a diagnosis of autism. I suppose in some ways it would be considered mild because he lives on his own, has a job, goes out to social gatherings that may include a large group of people, is able to maintain eye contact and has a good understanding of social norms/behaviours etc. That said, he would say he has had to learn these things rather than them being instinctive things that other people (to his mind anyway) just "get". On the other hand he has some definite sensory distortions that mean he reacts to certain stimuli differently to people without autism which means it can severely impact him on a day to day basis. Somehow he manages all this and is truly amazing.

As a point, in chapter 120, Renarin specifically think about how he had to "endure" hugs from Rock and then says when Rock said he looked like he needed a hug that "I assure you, I never look like that."

[AubreyWrites she/her]

11 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, Imma have to disagree with ya on multiple counts there. Source: I am autistic myself, formally diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. The most important piece of evidence is that we have WoB

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/227-rithmatist-denver-signing/#e7099

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Is Renarin Kholin on the autism spectrum?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Slightly—not even so much as Asperger's, but yes. *Something about it being difficult to notice/diagnose?*

So there's that. Also, I may not remember specifics, so I apologize, but he doesn't like physical contact. He gets uncomfortable whenever Rock hugs him, such as near the end of OB, when Bridge four arrives from the Oathgate. As to communication, he is stated as not making a lot of eye contact, and often starting thoughts in his head and then saying only part of it out loud. Also, the whole overstimulation in bridge 4 point: With higher spectrum autism, group stuff is not necessarily anathema. Here's the important bit: as an autistic person, group stuff becomes a lot easier if you want to be there, which he does. The important thing to remember is that autism is quite a wide spectrum, and in fact, two people on the spectrum can actually be more different than a person on and a person not on the spectrum. I personally believe Renarin is a very good example of a mildly autistic character. You usually see much more extreme examples in fiction, so it's nice to have a reminder that it is a very broad condition.

 

#renarin

In regards BS statement - thanks for including that. I will be factoring that into my reread as I'm sure it will change my perception.

I have always taken his background into more account for his behaviors and when not meeting people's eyes I have always attributed those times to his discomfort and guilt about/hiding Glys and his abilities.

His discomfort with Rock's hug I have chalked up to the fact that he has always been slightly on the outside and is not used to such physical confirmation of his inclusion in the group and it was disconcerting. 

My exposure has been mostly limited to severe cases of high functioning physical/low functioning mental on the spectrum so to me a case as mild as this reads as just quirky normal.  I know many people with these types of behaviors that have evolved from life circumstances and so attributed Renarin's to these as well. 

I want to make clear I am in no way shape or form trying to disparage or trivialize anyone else's experience or views. Just putting out there my view of Renarin through the lens of my personal experience 

[PhineasGage]

I think it is fair to acknowledge that Renarin would not be considered  a severe case - at least based on what we know of him. I do suspect that his epilepsy (assuming it was a correct diagnosis of course) likely would have had a great impact on his life in terms of the way he would be treated by others. His fits would be unpredictable, and, depending on the type of epilepsy, might result in problems with him learning skills including social skills. Whether or not the epilepsy would be more of a problem than his autism would depend on the severity and type of both. Either way he has been undermined because of him - storms, Dalinar calls him "the cripple" regularly in the flashbacks - not even always by name, which is appalling. 

[AubreyWrites she/her]

6 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

As a point, in chapter 120, Renarin specifically think about how he had to "endure" hugs from Rock and then says when Rock said he looked like he needed a hug that "I assure you, I never look like that."

Thanks for that quote - I did miss the emphasis on 'endure' and that does indicate a definite aversion to physical contact. Some of the  markers are there to an extent if just very faint to me - which is why I have always attributed his quirks to his personal life experience and natural inclination to be an introvert. Since he doesn't really display all of them and the times he does I have factored Glys in ( who  I guess could just be exacerbating  those traits instead of being the cause for them) I would put him so low on the spectrum as to not be noticeable by anyone as other than slightly odd (and let's face it between all our MC's and even in RL who hasn't been chalked up for odd behavior at times! Points to self.) ....which is exactly where Brandon put him do I guess good job Brandon. 

Humans are such wonderfully contradictory creatures! 

[Harbour he/him]

In regards of Kaladin's ability to heal Shallan i should add that he is the battle surgeon.

In fantasy there is the common trope of the King with Healing Hands, and overall Kaladin always gave me the Aragorn vibe. 

So yeah, its totally possible that Kaladin would be able figuratively speaking to heal Shallan. Wonder how Sanderson will play with this trope.

[Dreamstorm]

7 minutes ago, Harbour said:

In regards of Kaladin's ability to heal Shallan i should add that he is the battle surgeon.

In fantasy there is the common trope of the King with Healing Hands, and overall Kaladin always gave me the Aragorn vibe. 

So yeah, its totally possible that Kaladin would be able figuratively speaking to heal Shallan. Wonder how Sanderson will play with this trope.

For whatever reason, I’m thinking Syl will have a leading role in helping Shallan find healing. I need to re-read, but I remember thinking they were forming a bond in Shadesmar (including Syl wanting to go with Shallan when they split up in Celebrant. Syl is very pro-Shallan in this book in general.) Syl is becoming increasingly adept at emotional empathy; her comfort of Kaladin when he couldn’t say the fourth oath was very touching. Syl also notes she likes Pattern (which she says is strange given he’s a Cryptic.) 

[Guest]

Had another thought.

In the wonderful Chapter 82: The Girl Who Stood Up, Hoid tells Shallan the following.

Quote

“Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.”

“Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears.

“No,” Wit said. He nodded toward the version of her still standing up. “You will, Shallan. If you do not trust yourself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting.”

She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing. “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.”

Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.”

So Wit is trying to tell her, that Shallan needs to revert the process that she did and love herself again. He sees a woman more wonderful than any of the lies, the woman that she has always been. The woman, that doesn't need Veil and Radiant, but encompasses all of them.

A few chapters later, where she confronts Ashertmarn, she hears the following in Wit's voice...

Quote

Give it all to me, the voices whispered in Shallan’s mind. Give me your passion, your hunger, your longing, your loss. Surrender it. You are what you feel.

[...]

She became a new person with every heartbeat. The voices seemed thrilled by this. They assaulted her, growing to a frenzy. Shallan was a thousand people in a moment. But which one was her?

All of them. A new voice. Wit’s?

"Wit!” she screamed, surrounded by snapping eels in a dark place. “Wit! Please.”

You’re all of them, Shallan. Why must you be only one emotion? One set of sensations? One role? One life?

“They rule me, Wit. Veil and Radiant and all the others. They’re consuming me.”

Then be ruled as a king is ruled by his subjects. Make Shallan so strong, the others must bow.

“I don’t know if I can!”

Now, in the fight with Re-Shephir Shallan mentioned, that when Re-Shephir and she formed a connection and she was 'laid bare'. I think, that that happens whenever she 'merges' with an Unmade. The first voices obviously are from Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, but.. I was thinking, that Shallan was 'laid bare' again and Ashertmarn somehow got a memory from her, that included the scenes in Chapter 82 and the Unmade felt her predicament with fracturing personalities and her trust in Wit... and manipulates her into keeping her personas by pushing them into submission, which is what she thinks she is doing by the end of OB, through using Wit's voice. But Ashertmarn is described as mindless... Just speculating this, but Unmade are Splinters of Odium, right? Maybe it was actually Odium, who communicated with her through Ashertmarn? Into stopping her from making further progress?

Would also make sense with how he tried to manipulate Dalinar... with the Thrill... Another Unmade, Nergaoul.

It just seems such a contrast from what Wit said... I know Wit is stupidly capable and mysterious, but I can't see how he could have made any connection to Shallan while she was 'inside' Ashertmarn. And of course the constant mention of "emotions" and "sensations", which is basically Odiums theme through the complete book. No, I'm pretty sure, that it was Odium acting through Ashertmarn.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

15 minutes ago, Harbour said:

In fantasy there is the common trope of the King with Healing Hands, and overall Kaladin always gave me the Aragorn vibe. 

Not just in fantasy - it was common in medieval Europe to have the laying on of hands by Kings to cure a condition called scrofula. Scrofula is a symptom of TB in the lymph nodes of the neck, but it goes down on its own and of course people didn't realise it was due to TB (called 'consumption' at the time) so they thought the touch of a king could cure it! I have a feeling that James the First of England had a bit a thing about it.....

 

6 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

For whatever reason, I’m thinking Syl will have a leading role in helping Shallan find healing. I need to re-read, but I remember thinking they were forming a bond in Shadesmar (including Syl wanting to go with Shallan when they split up in Celebrant. Syl is very pro-Shallan in this book in general.) Syl is becoming increasingly adept at emotional empathy; her comfort of Kaladin when he couldn’t say the fourth oath was very touching. Syl also notes she likes Pattern (which she says is strange given he’s a Cryptic.) 

I agree about Syl being of interest in this - she does seem to interact with Shallan on a number of levels without Kaladin being present and I am not entirely sure why Kaladin doesn't address this. I don;t think we see her interact specifically with anyone other than Shallan without discussing it with Kaladin being present. I may be wrong, but it is implied that she doesn't usually like making herself visible to people other than Kaladin. I know Syl can't hide in the same way in Shadesmar but it does seem a bit strange that she is talking freely with Shallan (she asks her for an illusion and only tells Kaladin afterwards) but apparently not Adolin or Azure. On top of that, I don't think Pattern goes out of his way to talk with anyone. The only time I can remember him talking to someone other than Shallan is a brief chat with Adolin where Adolin approaches him and he gets the wrong end of the stick (something about seven being odd - I loled but not sure who else did).

@SLNC I see what you mean, but I always viewed this as it essentially being different forms of the same advice - I mean, Shallan needs to control the situation before she can accept they are all one. On the other hand, you are not the first to suggest that it means the opposite and it certainly could fit with it being Odium. I don't think Ashertman is more sentient than Nergaoul so whilst he may be a conduit, it seems unlikely it would come from him directly. I am prepared to believe that of anyone, Hoid is capable of doing something seemingly impossible. 

[Dreamstorm]

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Had another thought.

In the wonderful Chapter 82: The Girl Who Stood Up, Hoid tells Shallan the following.

So Wit is trying to tell her, that Shallan needs to revert the process that she did and love herself again. He sees a woman more wonderful than any of the lies, the woman that she has always been. The woman, that doesn't need Veil and Radiant, but encompasses all of them.

A few chapters later, where she confronts Ashertmarn, she hears the following in Wit's voice...

Now, in the fight with Re-Shephir Shallan mentioned, that when Re-Shephir and she formed a connection and she was 'laid bare'. I think, that that happens whenever she 'merges' with an Unmade. The first voices obviously are from Ashertmarn, the Heart of the Revel, but.. I was thinking, that Shallan was 'laid bare' again and Ashertmarn somehow got a memory from her, that included the scenes in Chapter 82 and the Unmade felt her predicament with fracturing personalities and her trust in Wit... and manipulates her into keeping her personas by pushing them into submission, which is what she thinks she is doing by the end of OB, through using Wit's voice. Just speculating this, but Unmade are Splinters of Odium, right? Maybe it was actually Odium, who communicated with her through Ashertmarn? Into stopping her from making further progress?

Would also make sense with how he tried to manipulate Dalinar... with the Thrill... Another Unmade, Nergaoul.

It just seems such a contrast from what Wit said... I know Wit is stupidly capable and mysterious, but I can't see how he could have made any connection to Shallan while she was 'inside' Ashertmarn.

Ahhhh this is great and also solves one of the jarring things in OB (since when can Wit speak into someone’s mind?!?) Now if someone can also explain two of the things which people have noted and that also bother me... the complete acceptance of Szeth (our big bad just a book before!) with no discussion and Bridge Four abandoning Dalinar in Theylan City...

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I mean, Shallan needs to control the situation before she can accept they are all one.

That is true, but the king analogy kind of suggests, that she should control the personas like a king. Not really the situation. I don't know... that doesn't really sound like forgiving yourself and admit, who you really are and always have been.

[Arch he/him]

I'd just like to point out that Adolin is inadvertently the catalyst to Shallan fracturing in to Radiant..

Quote

“I know it’s not feminine, but who cares? You’ve got a sword; you should know how to use it, and custom can go to Damnation. There, I said it.” He took a deep breath. “I mean, the bridgeboy can have one, and he’s darkeyed. Well, he was. Anyway, it’s not so different from that.”

Thank you, Shallan thought, for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants. But she held her tongue. This was obviously an important moment for Adolin, and he was trying to be broad-minded.

But… thinking of what she’d done pained her. Holding the weapon would be worse. So much worse.

She wanted to hide. But she couldn’t. This truth refused to budge from her mind. Could she explain? “So, you’re right, but—”

“Great!” Adolin said. “Great. I brought the Blade guards so we won’t hurt each other. I stashed them back at the guard post. I’ll go fetch them.”

He was out the door a moment later. Shallan stood with her hand stretched toward him, objections dying on her lips. She curled her fingers up and brought her hand to her breast, her heart thundering within.
[...]
I can hide, Shallan thought, drawing at a frenzied pace. Shallan can flee and leave someone in her place.
[...]
No. No, what would Adolin do if he returned and found a completely different woman in the room? He couldn’t know of Veil. The lines she sketched, ragged and unrefined from the shaking pencil, quickly took the shape of her own face. But hair in a bun. A poised woman, not as flighty as Shallan, not as unintentionally silly.

A woman who hadn’t been sheltered. A woman hard enough, strong enough, to wield this sword. A woman like… like Jasnah.

Yes, Jasnah’s subtle smile, composure, and self-confidence. Shallan outlined her own face with these ideals, creating a harder version of it. Could… could she be this woman?

I have to be, Shallan thought, drawing in Stormlight from her satchel, then breathing it out in a puff around her. She stood up as the change took hold. Her heartbeat slowed, and she wiped the sweat from her brow, then calmly undid her safehand sleeve, tossed aside the foolish extra pouch she’d tied around her hand inside, then rolled the sleeve back to expose her still-gloved hand.

When Adolin returned to the room a moment later, he found a poised, calm woman who wasn’t quite Shallan Davar. Brightness Radiant is her name, she thought. She will go only by title.

Chapter 15
Of course you can't blame Adolin. He couldn't have known about her trauma, but I think its pretty clear that there's a combination of her not wanting to disappoint him and  her being afraid of the shardblade that goes in to creating Radiant. At some point she even thinks about using Radiant to craft Adolin the perfect bride.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Arch

[Dreamstorm]

11 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I see what you mean, but I always viewed this as it essentially being different forms of the same advice - I mean, Shallan needs to control the situation before she can accept they are all one. On the other hand, you are not the first to suggest that it means the opposite and it certainly could fit with it being Odium. I don't think Ashertman is more sentient than Nergaoul so whilst he may be a conduit, it seems unlikely it would come from him directly. I am prepared to believe that of anyone, Hoid is capable of doing something seemingly impossible. 

What I didn’t notice until @SLNC put it side by side was the mention of “emotion” and “sensation” (passion!) and making the other personalities “bow”, which has a negative connotation. 

On a completely different note, I’m now 100% convinced Kaladin and Shallan is the end game. I’m doing a complete re-read and in Shallan’s first chapter in WoK, Captain Tozbek says:

Quote

The captain smiled, flamboyant eyebrows looking like streaks of light coming from his eyes. “It must be your beautiful face that brought us this favorable wind! The windspren themselves were entranced by you, Brightness Shallan, and led us here!”"

 Am I crazy to think this is foreshadowing?? (Maybe crazy.)

[AubreyWrites she/her]

18 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

this. I don;t think we see her interact specifically with anyone other than Shallan without discussing it with Kaladin being present. I may be wrong, but it is implied that she doesn't usually like making herself visible to people other than Kaladin.

She makes herself visible to Rock multiple times 

- not to discount this observation - I agree with all the statements- just clarfying this particular part 

Edited November 23, 2017 by AubreyWrites

[Valand]

1 minute ago, AubreyWrites said:

She makes herself visible to Rick multiple times 

You mean Rock? He can see spren. He was born with it IIRC.

[PhineasGage]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

What I didn’t notice until @SLNC put it side by side was the mention of “emotion” and “sensation” (passion!) and making the other personalities “bow”, which has a negative connotation. 

omg i missed that aspect entirely. I take it all back - i agree it is Odium!