[OB] Mayalaran

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Yes, that's what I said - they weren't copies of each other. My post is about Adolin fitting  the little we know about them. I've been in favor of Adolin becoming ED and reviving his Blade for years, so there's some confusion regarding my post. Let me know how I can improve it, because we are basically saying the same thing.

I understood your post and was trying to expand on it. You were not unclear. 

[Aleksiel]

9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I understood your post and was trying to expand on it. You were not unclear. 

I just considered that option  

You are right, remembering the forgotten is where the similarities between Adolin and Lift end, but that's enough.

[IllNsickly he/him]

On 11/20/2017 at 10:24 PM, Mahoka said:

My bad on the dustbringer plate. But now all I want is to see Lift in a wee little shardplate. Lol.

Like a Female Gnome Death Knight in WoW!!!

I need to see if there is anything resembling a fork for a blade and upload a pic of my DK, now...

[ScavellTane]

6 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

I just considered that option  

You are right, remembering the forgotten is where the similarities between Adolin and Lift end, but that's enough.

Maya was forgotten, he remembers her now.

It seems Adolin fits the ED's subsequent oaths, just not quite the first Ideal.

Edited November 25, 2017 by ScavellTane

[FuzzyWordsmith]

So, there is something that has been really really bugging me this whole thread. This conversation about Adolin possibly fitting as an Edgedancer. Would it be happening if Maya wasn't an Edgedancer blade/spren? Imagine a scenario where Maya's plot thread is identical, instead Maya is an Honorspren instead of a Cultivationspren. Or a Lightspren. In that case, would the thread go about determining if Adolin features characteristics of those orders? Arguments can be made.

He protects those who cannot protect themselves, like that child he saves that everyone mentions. He is a carefree and irresponsible individual which matches the characterizations of the Willshapers. We have WoB that Willshapers would be OK with killing Sadeas like that. And so on. What I worry about this thread is if people are trying to make the evidence fit the theory as opposed to the other way around.

I know the point will come up that Brandon wrote her to specifically be a Cultivationspren, but at that point it becomes an issue of Suspension of disbelief. Say he does qualify as an Edgedancer. So the Blade he wins in a duel just happens to be of the same order as the order he fits with? That is either very contrived, or an extremely strong hint at some overarching force of "fate" or "destiny" in the Cosmere. 

I guess my issue is that confirmation bias seems to be coming into play here, consciously or unconsciously. Even if it's not, even if he does become an Edgedancer, the fact that both the character and dead Blade, of all the types of dead Blades he could have won, end up matching seems to stretch Suspension of Disbelief for me.

[PhineasGage]

15 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, there is something that has been really really bugging me this whole thread. This conversation about Adolin possibly fitting as an Edgedancer. Would it be happening if Maya wasn't an Edgedancer blade/spren? Imagine a scenario where Maya's plot thread is identical, instead Maya is an Honorspren instead of a Cultivationspren. Or a Lightspren. In that case, would the thread go about determining if Adolin features characteristics of those orders? Arguments can be made.

I must admit I've wondered about this to, though in a slightly different format. I do agree that there may be an element of confirmation bias. I remember when it seemed to be most popular to link Adolin to the Willshapers but now Maya is a cultivationspren, everyone is jumping on the Edgedancer train.

Not that I think he doesn't fit, but addressing such cognitive biases is an important part of defending a theory.

We could also wonder if the fact that he is carrying Maya has made him more like an Edgedancer. What if, instead of him being his normal self, his character is being subtly altered over time (one might say "cultivated") to be fitting for a cultivationspren? Would he know? Would anyone know?

Back to the idea of the confirmation bias, I think it would be a valuable exercise to try and see how well Adolin would fit with the traditional/known models we have for each order of the KR.

I for one, think he'd make a pretty good Windrunner. He is honourable (aside from killing Sadeas - and no, I don't think its ok), and he does protect people by leading his mean from the front. He definitely has traits that fit with "Protecting" and "Leading".

We know that Syl would be appalled by the murder though and I am reasonably certain we have a WoB on this.

I think he fits less well with the Skybreakers. Murder aside, he doesn't strike me as being particularly "Just" - he isn't unjust, but it isn't something I think anyone would immediately say about Adolin - he rails against having to follow the codes for one thing.

I don't think he fits the Dustbringers that well (Careful and Obedient) - either from their traits or from what we've seen of Malata. He doesn't seem willing to watch the world burn.

Edgedancers - so I think the ideals work just fine, but I am not so mad on the "Loving" and "Healing" element of it. He isn't unloving, but I am not so sure he is more loving than others round him. The healing thing though does fit with how he handles Kaladin's battle shock. That being said, any soldier worth their salt knows how to handle battleshock like that in others. We see Kaladin manage it with Dabbid in tWoK. And he isnt an edgedancer.

Truthwatcher - "Learned, Giving" but we don't know the oaths. I am not seeing this one at all. He does give the blade and plate to Kaladin in WoR I suppose? But Learned is not Adolin's thing. He doesn't seem massively tactful to the point of appearing esoteric either.

Lightweaver. - No. just..... no.

Elsecaller: "Wise, Careful". Seem to be more likely to be scholars? Nope, cant see this one either.

Willshaper "Resolute, Builder" known for being the most varied except for their love of adventure. I can see this one, though perhaps not more than Edgedancer.

Stoneward: Dependable, Resourceful. Yes, definitely to this one. He is both of these. He has also walked away from some "unwinnable" battles. I don't think the stonewards only fought when they thought they might die after all....

Bondmith: Pious, Guiding. Nope again. He also struggles to keep to the Codes, even though he sees their importance. 

So of the 10, I think we have 3 or 4 that might fit based on personality alone. It does include Edgedancers of course. 

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

1 hour ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I guess my issue is that confirmation bias seems to be coming into play here, consciously or unconsciously. Even if it's not, even if he does become an Edgedancer, the fact that both the character and dead Blade, of all the types of dead Blades he could have won, end up matching seems to stretch Suspension of Disbelief for me.

Nine orders broke their oaths, and one of those, the Bondsmiths, didn't have blades. So one about one eighth of the blades should be ED. I don't think a 12.5% chance he would get an ED blade is unlikely. If we look at blades he could maybe match the order for, as @PhineasGage said, that probability goes up to 37.5%. Not unreasonable at all. 

[kari-no-sugata]

19 minutes ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, there is something that has been really really bugging me this whole thread. This conversation about Adolin possibly fitting as an Edgedancer. Would it be happening if Maya wasn't an Edgedancer blade/spren? Imagine a scenario where Maya's plot thread is identical, instead Maya is an Honorspren instead of a Cultivationspren. Or a Lightspren. In that case, would the thread go about determining if Adolin features characteristics of those orders? Arguments can be made.

He protects those who cannot protect themselves, like that child he saves that everyone mentions. He is a carefree and irresponsible individual which matches the characterizations of the Willshapers. We have WoB that Willshapers would be OK with killing Sadeas like that. And so on. What I worry about this thread is if people are trying to make the evidence fit the theory as opposed to the other way around.

I know the point will come up that Brandon wrote her to specifically be a Cultivationspren, but at that point it becomes an issue of Suspension of disbelief. Say he does qualify as an Edgedancer. So the Blade he wins in a duel just happens to be of the same order as the order he fits with? That is either very contrived, or an extremely strong hint at some overarching force of "fate" or "destiny" in the Cosmere. 

I guess my issue is that confirmation bias seems to be coming into play here, consciously or unconsciously. Even if it's not, even if he does become an Edgedancer, the fact that both the character and dead Blade, of all the types of dead Blades he could have won, end up matching seems to stretch Suspension of Disbelief for me.

I get where you are coming from and there are all sorts of dangers - confirmation bias is a real risk. I don't think we know enough from the spren perspective, for example.

However, to flip some of the arguments around: Brandon has made it very clear that reviving a dead spren is genuinely difficult. For a start, nobody has done it before. From WoBs and in-world clues, it looks set to be "nearly impossible" without the original person who had bonded Maya, and in-world it is currently considered to be "impossible" (per WoB). In other words, we can be sure that an awful lot of things have to go right for a Blade to revive. What we don't know is how important saying the Ideals would be - one of Brandon's WoBs could be read as "it's not that Ideals that are important but something else" or also "speaking the Ideals alone is not enough and more is needed" (personally I think it's the latter).

So, what has gone right for Adolin? Well, it's subjective and debatable of course and I doubt Brandon is going to go into the details just yet but I would think that any of the following might help to some degree. I definitely don't think they would hurt:

1. That Adolin has bonded Maya (using the gem) for a long time
2. That Adolin has not treated Maya like a tool and instead has been very respectful and he refused to name her because he didn't know her real name. We know from the Stormfather that eyeless can sense things in the real world (it made a difference to the spren that is the Oathbringer blade). We don't know exactly how Maya would evaluate all his actions though.
3. That Adolin could "meet" Maya in Shadesmar. This is obviously subjective but I feel that it was one of two things in the book that was critically important. Adolin was a bit surprised but he obviously showed concern about Maya and even called her a friend. We saw Maya respond by protecting Adolin from the Fused.
4. That Adolin and Maya were present during the Honor's Perpendicularity event. It seemed to temporarily heal Taln at least. In Adolin and Maya's case their "bond" rockets forwards during, far beyond anything ever seen with an eyeless, but it's hard to say how much it was due to Honor's Perpendicularity and how much was build up during Shadesmar but I suspect both were important - that it required everything up to that point for Adolin to be able to sense Maya's feelings. I think Honor's Perpendicularity acted as a catalyst - drastically enhancing something that was already there. I don't know how far it would be from here to Maya's actual revival. It's certainly a tangible step forwards. I suspect there's quite some distance to go.
5. That Maya appears to want to form a deeper bond with Adolin. This kind of overlaps with 4 above but I want to focus on the personal aspect separately to the (likely) spiritual healing from Honor's Perpendicularity. Maya's thoughts conveyed to Adolin indicate approval. She was reluctant to be handed over to someone else. She warned him about danger. Not once did she give a sense of "don't do that again" or similar. So, at a minimum I think it's safe to say that Maya would rather be wielded by Adolin than anyone else. I don't know if we can say for certain that Maya actually likes Adolin in absolute terms though. If she doesn't hate him at all then I think that would be very significant.

Points 3 and 4 could be considered to be plain "luck" - being in the right place at the right time. I think all points build up on top of each other. Ie points 1 and 2 combine to give us point 5. We don't know how common each Radiant Order is but there's no Skybreaker eyeless (that we know of) and there wouldn't be any Bondsmith eyeless either. So that gives us about a roughly 1 in 8 chance that Adolin just happens to win a Blade that might fit his personality - compared to the other points above, I don't think it's too big a deal and not much suspension of disbelief is required. You could say there's a certain amount of self-selection - that if that luck hadn't have gone Adolin's way there's would be no story here. But even then it only gets us a small step along the way and every step is crucial.

I think the 4th point was particularly important short term and I think the 5th point is particularly important long term. Regardless of Oaths/Ideals etc, if Maya is not personally attracted to Adolin then I don't think there's any chance of her being revived. I think it's likely necessary that she would want to be revived. I don't know if Adolin would need to speak the Edgedanger Ideals to revive Maya but I'm pretty sure he would need to in order to stay bonded to her long term, like with any Nahel bond.

So, how important is it for Adolin to be Edgedancer-like? Hard to say but I think he would have to be a candidate to some degree else Maya wouldn't like him (most likely). Maya will now be able to direct Adolin to be more Edgedancer-like as well, through the improved bond. So there's a possible positive feedback loop here. It wouldn't be surprising to see Adolin become more Edgedancer-like by the time we next see him.

Looking to the future, it seems clear to me that "first generation Knights" (ie first one in their Order to speak the Oaths) have a tougher time since they don't have anyone to learn from. Second generation Knights (the Skybreakers squires, Kaladin's squires, Shallan's squires) can be helped by the first generation Knights. So if Adolin can learn from Lift then that would surely help to some degree. Becoming her squire could help as well - at a minimum it would at least help Adolin become more dangerous on the battlefield and help the overall revival feel like a progression. Whether Lift and Adolin would actually do this or not I have no idea - I think Adolin would be humble enough but I'm not sure that Lift would want squires.

 

@PhineasGage it feels to me that you're given too much weight to the Vorin ideals. We know they're unreliable and in some cases plain wrong. Personally, I'm ignoring them for predicting this sort of thing.

[Stairdweller he/him]

This is kind of tangental.  But are there really equal numbers of dead blades from each of the 8 orders that contributed them?  It seems like some orders are more condusive to having many members (like how more militaristic orders seem to have an easier mechanism for recruiting squires) than others.  Do we have confirmation on what any of the other dead blades we have seen are?

[Watchcry he/him]

On 11/14/2017 at 9:55 AM, Salkara said:

 

 

Brandon should write Edgedancer 2 short novel before book 4 and theme it around Adolin reviving Maya. 

[Aleksiel]

@FuzzyWordsmith The conversation about Adolin being Edhedancer material predates the revelation Maya is ED spren, so no, it is not confirmation bias.

 

[FuzzyWordsmith]

Just now, Aleksiel said:

@FuzzyWordsmith The conversation about Adolin being Edhedancer material predates the revelation Maya is ED spren, so no, it is not confirmation bias.

 

Could you please elaborate a bit more on the timing? I don't really have a timeline straight.

[PhineasGage]

44 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

@PhineasGage it feels to me that you're given too much weight to the Vorin ideals. We know they're unreliable and in some cases plain wrong. Personally, I'm ignoring them for predicting this sort of thing.

Fair enough, though I think that given that each of our known KRs actually fit them well they are probably at least as reliable as the descriptions given in the in world Words of Radiance. That was written long after the Recreance after all. We need some evidence from canon or we could say literally anything is possible.

The least well fitting seems to be Shallan (Honest Creative) but then she does need to speak truths. 

[Aleksiel]

Just now, FuzzyWordsmith said:

Could you please elaborate a bit more on the timing? I don't really have a timeline straight.

Sometime in 2014 is the earliest I can point to. But it was before there was a WoB Maya was dead ED spren.

[rjl]

I think it's worth noting that it's possible for the same person to meet the criteria for more than one order; maybe Adolin had what it takes to be an Edgedancer OR a Willshaper and then he happens to have an Edgedancer blade.

[yulerule]

I think there's one important point - you're all assuming that reviving Maya leads to Maya forming a nahel bond with Adolin and Adolin becoming a KR. I don't think it's as simple as that. 

Part of it is that I don't think/want Adolin to be KR, since meta-speaking, all the main characters will be Radiants then, and I don't think that's the point. Someone has to remain normal, for character development/conflict. 

Second, Adolin may be tangentially similar to Edgedancers, but I don't think he's quite what they're looking for.

Maybe he'll never become a full KR, but a semi-KR. Perhaps a revived Nahel bond will differ from a regular one. After all, a lot of firsts are happening - Venli(Listener-KR), and Renarin (corrupted truespren on the side of good).

Edited November 25, 2017 by yulerule

[kari-no-sugata]

24 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I think there's one important point - you're all assuming that reviving Maya leads to Maya forming a nahel bond with Adolin and Adolin becoming a KR. I don't think it's as simple as that. 

Part of it is that I don't think/want Adolin to be KR, since meta-speaking, all the main characters will be Radiants then, and I don't think that's the point. Someone has to remain normal, for character development/conflict. 

Second, Adolin may be tangentially similar to Edgedancers, but I don't think he's quite what they're looking for.

Maybe he'll never become a full KR, but a semi-KR. Perhaps a revived Nahel bond will differ from a regular one. After all, a lot of firsts are happening - Venli(Listener-KR), and Renarin (corrupted truespren on the side of good).

The problem with this argument is that normal = squishy. You then need to jump through extra hoops to justify their usefulness and survivability on the battlefield. Adolin is going to be increasingly left behind unless he gets some kind of power-up. Adolin got to shine at the end of OB because they only had a small force there and he could make a difference. In better prepared battles in future where there's 10s of Radiants and many more squires, he's going to struggle to make a difference. Of course, he has skills outside of combat too - eg, leadership and so on, but him focusing on that would equally take him outside of combat.

[FuzzyWordsmith]

2 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

The problem with this argument is that normal = squishy. You then need to jump through extra hoops to justify their usefulness and survivability on the battlefield. Adolin is going to be increasingly left behind unless he gets some kind of power-up. Adolin got to shine at the end of OB because they only had a small force there and he could make a difference. In better prepared battles in future where there's 10s of Radiants and many more squires, he's going to struggle to make a difference. Of course, he has skills outside of combat too - eg, leadership and so on, but him focusing on that would equally take him outside of combat.

I feel like his low durability is mitigated a LOT by Plate. Remember, the circumstances at the end of the book were rather unique. Normally, he goes into combat with all the gear, so I think it's not unreasonable for him to keep pace. For example, the Thaylen Shardbearer that he gave Maya to was able to help take down a thunderclast. That should count for something.

[Calderis he/him]

@FuzzyWordsmith the biggest reason I think that it's not contrived is a combination of two things.

1) as @thegatorgirl00 said, there are only a limited number of blade types

2) you aren't forced to only fit one spren. 

Ym was a confirmed Truthwatcher, but Wyndel says that the ring had considered bonding him as an Edgedancer. 

You can fit into multiple orders. 

[Dryone_2]

19 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Maya was forgotten, he remembers her now.

It seems Adolin fits the ED's subsequent oaths, just not quite the first Ideal.

His series of romances fits "journey before destination" quite well, don't you think? 

[XenosHg]

Well, as someone said, let me shoot for the Sun here...

What if reviving her doesn't make him a pseudo-Radiant, but instead a pseudo-Herald? Or her, a pseudo-honorblade. Not connected to each other by the bond, but still (mostly) alive?

[yulerule]

21 minutes ago, XenosHg said:

Well, as someone said, let me shoot for the Sun here...

What if reviving her doesn't make him a pseudo-Radiant, but instead a pseudo-Herald? Or her, a pseudo-honorblade. Not connected to each other by the bond, but still (mostly) alive?

I support the theory that reviving Maya will not necessarily make him a Radiant like the others. Maybe he'll be able to use Stormlight, but no Surges. @kari-no-sugata That + Plate might make him less squishy.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

On 11/16/2017 at 2:25 PM, Vianki said:

Folks are saying this possibility is too complicated. Occam's razor and whatnot. But is it? ...

I think people rely on Occam's razor a bit too much.

Elliot Sober, a well-known, philosopher of science has called for it to be abandoned ("Explanation in Biology: Let's Razor Ockham's Razor." Royal Institute of Philosophy Supplement, 1990, 27:73-93.); maybe, outside of the scientific field, it still has a decent narrative purpose but I really prefer it when Occam's razor doesn't work; this is rather concisely and dramatically put in the HBO remake of Westworld:

Quote

Robert Ford: You can't play God without being acquainted with the devil. There's something else bothering you, Bernard. I know how that head of yours works.
Bernard Lowe: The photograph alone couldn't have caused that level of damage to Abernathy, not without some other outside interference.
Robert Ford: You think it's sabotage? Imagine someone's been diddling with our creations?
Bernard Lowe: It's the simplest solution.
Robert Ford: Ah, Mr. Occam's razor. The problem, Bernard, is that what you and I do is so complicated. We practice witchcraft. We speak the right words. Then we create life itself out of chaos. William of Occam was a 13th century monk. He can't help us now, Bernard. He would have us burned at the stake.

Apologies for the digression. I'm super excited at the possibility of Adolin reviving Maya and becoming an Edgedancer because his dueling skills matched with those surges would make him frighteningly dangerous as hinted at in Words Of Radiance.

[kari-no-sugata]

5 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

I feel like his low durability is mitigated a LOT by Plate. Remember, the circumstances at the end of the book were rather unique. Normally, he goes into combat with all the gear, so I think it's not unreasonable for him to keep pace. For example, the Thaylen Shardbearer that he gave Maya to was able to help take down a thunderclast. That should count for something.

Certainly. I'm not sure how many set battles they'll have vs infiltration missions but any set battles should allow Adolin to bring his Plate.

Just one problem: the more Adolin stands out as a commander type or similar the more likely he is to be personally targeted, eg by a Fused or two. It's not the same of course but Szeth was able to take on full Shardbearers as well. We'll probably see Fused with Plate as well.

With Plate, Adolin would probably be around as useful on the battlefield as a squire I guess or maybe a bit more, depending on the squire and the nature of the enemy.

[XenosHg]

Do squires hear screams?