[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

I think you know why this is. We've discussed it at length before. Just trying to offer alternatives in order to keep the dream alive. Take it or leave it.

Also: "He beamed with pride when he learned about Renarin"

this is the sentence that stood out to me as suggesting you felt Dalinar felt some sort of elevated sense of satisfaction for the son who was radiant, and perhaps the son who wasn't had fallen down in worth, at least in Dalinar eyes. Overall, the tone of your posts here suggest (rightly or wrongly) that you find these characters at fault for not having the same thoughts and questions about Adolin that you do. So my reading of them reflected my thought that you assumed the worst about the characters motivations in this regard. 

But this isn't about whether or not Adolin should or should not become a Radiant or his story arc or anything of the sorts... It is a legit question as to why in-world characters didn't ask the question. 

If Dalinar feels pride for the son being elevated to the status of Radiant, a very natural reaction, then shouldn't he wonder about the one who wasn't? I wouldn't go as far as to say I am faulting those characters, I am musing as to why it wasn't asked in the narrative. It seems to me there were more reasons for them to ask the question than not to ask it.

Pushing it a bit farther, it is odd they aren't asking themselves why there are no Radiant among the regular soldiers nor the field officers, not just Adolin, but everyone. Truth is, their small contingent of Radiants are ill-prepared and inexperienced to face battle. If I were a war leader, I'd wish the sprens would chose individuals better able to help on a military point of view.

[DeployParachute]

4 hours ago, maxal said:

don't know why you put this in spoilers, it wasn't required... I just wanted to say I did found it odd no one commented on the fact Adolin was not made a Radiants...

 

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I am not questioning why Adolin was not made a Radiant. I am questioning why the in-world characters aren't asking themselves why?

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

As for Adolin, the fact he was left out is so blatant, end of the world or not, it would have been very human, realistic and normal they would ask themselves why. They all think very highly of Adolin.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

At the Thaylenar battle, Dalinar doesn't bother himself with Adolin: he only focused on the Radiant, he didn't even think he also had Adolin as a resource. I would thus not argue Dalinar is not Radiant focused.

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

It is not even a matter of thinking Adolin deserves it, it is more a matter of having every single Kholin being a Radiant, except him, is so blatant, it is odd it didn't register into anyone's mind. Had no Kholin been a Radiant, had we only have Dalinar or just Jasnah, I wouldn't be making the commentary, but there are four of them, if we count Elhokar. 

 

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Pushing it a bit farther, it is odd they aren't asking themselves why there are no Radiant among the regular soldiers nor the field officers, not just Adolin, but everyone.

Your initial focus was very much on Adolin, so that is where I focused. I see you are trying to pivot here, and open it up to include more than just Adolin. Which I think is a good direction, because if we look at Teft, Lopen, the other bridge for squires, and even Shallan's squires, we can see that common soldiers and officers (Teft is a noncom at least), and even non soldiers are indeed on their path to Radiancy, while Adolin still is not. 

Idon't think there is any deeper or hidden meaning here. I think, like many other things Brandon has chosen not to write explicitly, it is supposed to be self evident. As for why the other characters are not asking questions, perhaps in Adolin's case, they don't want to bring it up, because they recognize the potential for embarrassment, or hurt feelings, or resentment. Maybe there are more important things on their minds than whether it is strange that Adolin Kholin has developed no radiant powers (and I remain focused on him, because clearly other non MCs are developing bonds)  and maybe Brandon expected that to be self evident to us as well. Or maybe you'll get some people questioning it in the next book, which might finally make Adolin more interesting: "look at that Adolin Kholin, where is his spren" "you'd think that all the Kholins would be radiants, what's the deal with Adolin, maybe he's hiding something" , "I never did trust that Adolin fellow. No spren seem to. I bet he's really a piece of crem". Maybe his family and friends are currently giving him time to develop a bond, but after a while, even they've got to start wondering. I bet that Adolin could take it coming from strangers, but perhaps it coming from those he loves would break him. Cause him to do things, things that inadvertantly lead him further away from Radiancy. Who knows, maybe Brandon left it out so he could surprise you next book. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Your initial focus was very much on Adolin, so that is where I focused. I see you are trying to pivot here, and open it up to include more than just Adolin. Which I think is a good direction, because if we look at Teft, Lopen, the other bridge for squires, and even Shallan's squires, we can see that common soldiers and officers (Teft is a noncom at least), and even non soldiers are indeed on their path to Radiancy, while Adolin still is not. 

Idon't think there is any deeper or hidden meaning here. I think, like many other things Brandon has chosen not to write explicitly, it is supposed to be self evident. As for why the other characters are not asking questions, perhaps in Adolin's case, they don't want to bring it up, because they recognize the potential for embarrassment, or hurt feelings, or resentment. Maybe there are more important things on their minds than whether it is strange that Adolin Kholin has developed no radiant powers (and I remain focused on him, because clearly other non MCs are developing bonds)  and maybe Brandon expected that to be self evident to us as well. Or maybe you'll get some people questioning it in the next book, which might finally make Adolin more interesting: "look at that Adolin Kholin, where is his spren" "you'd think that all the Kholins would be radiants, what's the deal with Adolin, maybe he's hiding something" , "I never did trust that Adolin fellow. No spren seem to. I bet he's really a piece of crem". Maybe his family and friends are currently giving him time to develop a bond, but after a while, even they've got to start wondering. I bet that Adolin could take it coming from strangers, but perhaps it coming from those he loves would break him. Cause him to do things, things that inadvertantly lead him further away from Radiancy. Who knows, maybe Brandon left it out so he could surprise you next book. 

My initial focus was Adolin because I was answering a post which referred to him. I do agree it is interesting to ask bigger questions as to why our characters aren't questioning the Radiant process more. So while yes, there are some soldiers on their way towards becoming Radiants, there are no officers. Every single squire or Radiant started up as a low ranked soldiers: no one among the upper ranks, apart from Dalinar, was ever chosen. 

No one was chosen within the other warcamps, yet, but I suspect this will change in its own time.

Considering Dalinar himself complains over lacking officers, considering he is very war oriented, him not questioning nor voicing the need to officers Radiants is odd. It goes hand in hand with the all-acclaimed notion being a Radiant is a substitute for experience as Dalinar doesn't shy away from sending untrained teenage girls and his young son into battle now they are Radiants.

I personally do not think it is self-evident nor do I think it is consistent with Dalinar's character nor to ask any questions. Are they, as you are suggesting, not wanting to hurt Adolin? Hard to say, Dalinar has a lot of viewpoints, he could have reflected on it without voicing it out loud. It is the lack of wondering or thoughts on the matter which I find peculiar. I can understand it never were a public thing. I also do not think it is "self-evident" why Adolin was not chosen by any spren just as I don't think it is "self-evident" why Elhokar was. I don't think it is self-evident for in-world characters either. Kaladin doesn't act surprised to see Elhokar bond a spren and yet... he doesn't think much of him.

Will it come into play? I have no idea, but I do not think not broaching those questions is a good idea for the narrative.

[insert_anagram_here]

10 hours ago, maxal said:

I also do not think it is "self-evident" why Adolin was not chosen by any spren just as I don't think it is "self-evident" why Elhokar was. I don't think it is self-evident for in-world characters either. Kaladin doesn't act surprised to see Elhokar bond a spren and yet... he doesn't think much of him.

What people are referring to 'self-evident' is the dead Shardblade Adolin has been carrying around from the beginning, which is conflicting to attracting another spren and forming a Nahel bond by result. And I think it is somewhat clever to do from Brandon's writing perspective, since it adds a tragic irony to the fact that Adolin felt like he lost his place in the world when the Knight Radiants appeared. It was exactly that Shardblade, that "big stick" that he has been fighting with, that had given him the social standing that he felt it was "his place in the world" to begin with. Now it's the reason he can't become a Knight Radiant. To me, unless we see something major happening that would deflect this narrative, this foreshadows why the Maya arc can't possibly end in a positive outcome.

Edited March 15, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[StormingTexan he/him]

6 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

What people are referring to 'self-evident' is the dead Shardblade Adolin has been carrying around from the beginning, which is conflicting to attracting another spren and forming a Nahel bond by result.

Elhokar had a dead shardblade and attracted a spren to bond with him. Maybe I am missing something because I am not sure where this assumption that if someone is bonded to a dead blade they are precluded from being able to attract/bond a spren. We have an example with Elhokar that it does not. Obviously once they do the spren is going to want them to give it up but I am missing the proof that it prevents attracting a spren. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by StormingTexan

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Elhokar had a dead shardblade and attracted a spren to bond with him. Maybe I am missing something because I am not sure where this assumption that if someone is bonded to a dead blade they are precluded from being able to attract/bond a spren. We have an example with Elhokar that it does not. Obviously once they do the spren is going to want them to give it up but I am missing the proof that it prevents attracting a spren. 

Probably from this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77-shadows-of-self-lansing-signing/#e6592

Quote

Questioner

With Adolin you say there that he feels a connection to his sword. And all the other Shardbearers, when they touch a Shardblade they get the screaming in their ears. Does that mean he’s not going to be a Radiant.

Brandon Sanderson

It means he's- number one he's not on the path to being a Radiant, that's the main thing that means.

 

[king of nowhere]

39 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Probably from this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/77-shadows-of-self-lansing-signing/#e6592

 

adolin not being on the path to becoming a radiant in no way whatsoever implies the problem lies in his bond to his blade. especially not when we had two characters who bonded spren while having a dead shardblade, and it proved no obstacle.

[StormingTexan he/him]

6 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

adolin not being on the path to becoming a radiant in no way whatsoever implies the problem lies in his bond to his blade. especially not when we had two characters who bonded spren while having a dead shardblade, and it proved no obstacle.

Agreed.

That WoB means Adolin does not hear the screaming because he has not attracted/bonded a spren not that he is precluded from the possibility because he has bonded a dead shardblade. Now one may argue that because of his deeper connection to his blade it may make it more difficult to attract/bond a spren but we really do not have anything to substantiate that argument and we certainly shouldn't say that anyone bonded with a dead shardblade cannot attract/bond a spren because we have evidence of the contrary. 

[insert_anagram_here]

20 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

adolin not being on the path to becoming a radiant in no way whatsoever implies the problem lies in his bond to his blade. especially not when we had two characters who bonded spren while having a dead shardblade, and it proved no obstacle.

Of course there is an assumption made somewhere in the interpretation of that WoB that might not be right, but the spren themselves have said that they don't like Radiants using dead Shardblades, and using the dead is something that is considered grotesque for them.

Quote

“I have come to understand,” Pattern said, growing excited. “Humans . . . humans don’t care about the dead. You build chairs and doors out of corpses! You eat corpses! You make clothing from the skins of corpses. Corpses are things to you.” “Well, I guess that’s true.” He seemed unnaturally excited by the revelation. “It is grotesque,” he continued, “but you all must kill and destroy to live. It is the way of the Physical Realm. So I should not hate Adolin Kholin for wielding a corpse!”  - OB Location 3781

Quote

Dalinar steeled himself and carried the Blade—a familiar weight—with the flat side against his shoulder. He walked toward a different entrance back into the tower city, followed by his guards, the scout, and the five bridgemen. You promised to carry no dead Blade, the Stormfather thundered in his head. “Calm yourself,” Dalinar whispered. “I’m not going to bond it.” - OB Location 5675

Edit:

8 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

we certainly shouldn't say that anyone bonded with a dead shardblade cannot attract/bond a spren

Oh I'm not saying that Adolin will not bond any spren because he is carrying a dead shardblade, I was just trying to point out what people seem to refer to when they are saying it's 'self-evident'. Whatever you make out of these WoBs and in book text, is your own choice to make.

Edited March 15, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[StormingTexan he/him]

7 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Oh I'm not saying that Adolin will not bond any spren because he is carrying a dead shardblade, I was just trying to point out what people seem to refer to when they are saying it's 'self-evident'. Whatever you make out of these WoBs and in book text, is your own choice to make.

Forgive me if I am not following but the "self-evident" part is meant to mean in-world correct. I am saying why would this be self evident in-world when it is directly contradicted. 

Also no one is disagreeing with the fact that spren do not like KR using dead shardblades several characters have been told this by their spren as you pointed out. If i recall correctly Syl also told Kaladin about it. As seen though this becomes an issue after the KR attracts/bonds a spren. 

[insert_anagram_here]

46 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Forgive me if I am not following but the "self-evident" part is meant to mean in-world correct. I am saying why would this be self evident in-world when it is directly contradicted. 

Also no one is disagreeing with the fact that spren do not like KR using dead shardblades several characters have been told this by their spren as you pointed out. If i recall correctly Syl also told Kaladin about it. As seen though this becomes an issue after the KR attracts/bonds a spren. 

I'm not sure what you mean as 'in-world' since people interpret the in-book text differently.

 

But in a final attempt to hopefully clarify (since English isn't my native language) the definition of 'self-evident' to me means obvious, something that shouldn't need to be explained. Clearly it isn't self-evident, since maxal mentioned a few posts ago that it isn't obvious to them, so I was trying to bring forward what other people consider as 'self-evident' in order to clarify the muddy waters of this discussion.

 

So to my interpretation it seems as obvious from the WoB and in book text that having a dead Shardblade acts as an inhibitor to becoming a Radiant. I'm not saying that Adolin will not bond any spren because he is carrying a dead shardblade, I was just trying to point out what other people seem to refer to as 'self-evident', since obviously its not evident for everyone.

 

Whatever you make out of these WoBs and in book text, is your own choice to make. I'm not trying to be contentious here just clarifying.

 

Edit: And actually Sadeas had Oathbringer when Dalinar bonded Stormfather (Dalinar un-bonded the other Shardblade when SF asked him to) and if Elhokar still had his own dead Shardblade he would probably still be alive at this point.

Edited March 15, 2018 by insert_anagram_here

[StormingTexan he/him]

Sorry let me explain. The previous discussion was why the characters were not questioning how, why and who were attracting spren. Which in Adolin's case seems worth questioning because his current skill sets would be well suited especially if you are trying to put together a force of KR to defeat Odium. Also most of his family members are becoming KR. I may have interpreted some of the previous comments incorrectly but I took self-evident was referring to the in-world characters. As in none of the characters are questioning this because it is self-evident to them how, why and who are attracting spren. You said it was self-self evident because of Adolin having a dead shardeblade which my counter was that has not precluded other characters from attracting/bonding spren. So it would not be self-evident to the characters and is not a justification for them to not question these things in particular regarding Adolin. I may have misunderstood in which perspective you meant self-evident. Regardless I do not feel it is self evident either by our or in-world perspective. I agree WoB can be left to some interpretation but even if you interpret it your way Brandon has said text in books trumps WoB and in the text we have a specific case where someone has attracted a spren and has a dead shardblade. 

 

Edit: @insert_anagram_here That is correct about Dalinar he did not have Oathbringer when he bonded with the SF but when do you consider he attracted the SF? I consider it once he started getting the visions which was before he gave up Oathbringer. I'll admit the SF is a special case and not as clear cut but that would be my assumption. In Elhokar's case he literally had it right before he died. He was stabbed in the arm by one of the queens guard and dropped it. He then gets the drawing out and holds his son before Moash kills him. 

Edit again: here is the actual scene. 

Quote

Ahead, Elhokar’s ring of guards fell, and a member of the Queen’s Guard managed to ram the point of a halberd into the king’s arm. Elhokar gasped, dropping his Shardblade from pained fingers, holding his son close with his other arm.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by StormingTexan

[Kaladin Zahel]

I tend to agree that it is odd for noone to bring up or ask why Adolin is not a Radiant.

My conclusion is that Brandon has too much out-of-character knowledge and slipped up. Maya will bond to him so he has tabled Adolin as a future Radiant.

My reasons for this belief are:

The evidence for expectation is there. The Kholin family being at the epicenter of many spren bonds.                        Bridge 4 acquiring many squires as well as full Radiants relatvely speaking.

And the OOC knowledge is that spren don't want to interfere with the resurrection of one of their number.

This could all have been looked past if a PoV character thought it internally or any simple interaction with Adolin asking,"Hey, are you sure nothing weird has been going on with you that might mean you will become one of us?"

I'm fine with it as is, but I hope I'm on the right track.

[Guest]

I think there has been some misunderstanding as to what the initial questioning was about. The question was why aren't in-world characters, given the knowledge they do have, asking about Adolin being left out of the Radian bandwagon.

My reasons for thinking it is odd are the following:

1) Every single individual bearing Kholin blood is or was a Radiant. I include Gavilar as we do have a WoB stating he too was on his way to become a Radiant. Arguably, Dalinar doesn't know about Gavilar, but he knows about Renarin and Jasnah. Surely, he has been told about Elhokar.

2) Based on the in-world knowledge, nothing precludes Adolin from becoming a Radiant. Dalinar started bonding the Stormfather while he was still bonded to his beloved Oathbringer. Renarin bonded Glys while being bonded to a dead-Blade. Elhokar attracted and bonded a spren all the while being bonded to yet another dead-Blade. While it is true some sprens, such as Syl, have an intense dislike for Sharbearers, we have seen others either able to rationalize it isn't such a terrible thing (Pattern) or not care at all (Ico). Hence, our characters have no valid reasons to rule out Adolin as a future Radiant. There are no "self-evident" reasons why Adolin has been left out while everyone in his family was picked.

3) More over, Adolin has skill sets which will be crucial to fighting the Desolation. Even better, he has skill sets no other Radiants are possessing, but he is clearly out-matched during the fights due to his lack of surgebinding and stormlight healing. They are going to need fighters, military leaders and cold-headed pro-active people like Adolin within their group of Radiants if they are to stand a chance. He's probably the one Kholin who'd be the most effective with a Radiant bond, not to say others aren't effective, but they do not have his fighting experience.

4) All Radiants seem to have their moments where they feel they were wrongly chosen, where they aren't up to the task. Why aren't they wondering about who would be, still according to themselves, better candidates? If Teft, for instance, doesn't think he was rightly chosen, then who would he picked?

So far, the only explanation I find helps put this question in better perspective is the one stating it probably didn't crossed anyone's mind to question the process. I find it weak because it seems baffling a man like Dalinar, seeing his son as a splinter of Honor himself (slight exaggeration on my part here, but you all get the gig), being terribly war oriented wouldn't have wondered why the sprens didn't pick his most efficient son. It is just one aspect of the narrative which wasn't broach: either because the author doesn't think it is important to answer those questions or he plans to answer them in future books.

[IronBars he/him]

I haven't read all 32 pages of this thread, but just want to chime in here about Adolin, 

Firstly 

i think the reaction of anyone finding out Renarin was a radiant would firstly be shock and then to ask why wasn't Adolin chosen ? 

I don't say this because i dislike Renarin i say it because how the people in book view Renarin and Adolin himself, it seems like should be a natural question for people within the book to ask themselves given how they see them.

Secondly

It strikes me as odd the current KR haven't discussed how/what/why/when etc they bonded there spren because this could be extremely helpful in locating/finding new potential radiants if they found a common denominator, they would have an idea of what to look out for.

This question also leading to why Adolin hasn't attracted a spren.

To say there was no time for that doesn't make sense either because a lot of OB was characters discussing plans for this and that, so it seems a massive omission not to consider how to identify new KR or even wonder how they could get certain people to attract a spren etc

Thirdly

Personally i think Adolin hasn't attracted a spren because while he seems to have traits that could fit several orders, he doesn't have the traits of any order fully, 

I used a horrible analogy in a different thread saying he was like a pyramid shape trying to fit in a conical shaped hole (apologies),

However a better anology would be "hes a jack of all trades, but a master of none" 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, IronBars said:

Firstly 

i think the reaction of anyone finding out Renarin was a radiant would firstly be shock and then to ask why wasn't Adolin chosen ? 

I don't say this because i dislike Renarin i say it because how the people in book view Renarin and Adolin himself, it seems like should be a natural question for people within the book to ask themselves given how they see them.

I agree. Everyone views Renarin as the sickly, weak brother, the useless one: if anyone is better placed to be a Radiant, according to how everyone views them, then it ought to be Adolin. Now I am not saying Adolin deserves to be a Radiant more than Renarin, but I am saying in-world character should have thought along those lines given how the character were presented into the narrative. 

It was a very natural question no one asked. It was a natural question Dalinar should have asked himself. He might have grown to love Renarin, but Adolin is the one he destined to a great future. 

16 hours ago, IronBars said:

Secondly

It strikes me as odd the current KR haven't discussed how/what/why/when etc they bonded there spren because this could be extremely helpful in locating/finding new potential radiants if they found a common denominator, they would have an idea of what to look out for.

This question also leading to why Adolin hasn't attracted a spren.

To say there was no time for that doesn't make sense either because a lot of OB was characters discussing plans for this and that, so it seems a massive omission not to consider how to identify new KR or even wonder how they could get certain people to attract a spren etc

This too, it was odd. They was 0 discussion as to how they were made Radiants, what they can do. No sharing of information, just Dalinar asking Renarin/Shallan to "go train" without bothering finding out what they can actually do. They talked a lot about politics (which was very boring), but never about their powers. They also didn't try to elaborate a plan to increase their numbers, to attract new ones. It seems, when ancient powers are coming back into the world, the Number One question should be the: "What, Where, How, Why", not the "Oh well, now let's start training".

16 hours ago, IronBars said:

Thirdly

Personally i think Adolin hasn't attracted a spren because while he seems to have traits that could fit several orders, he doesn't have the traits of any order fully, 

I used a horrible analogy in a different thread saying he was like a pyramid shape trying to fit in a conical shaped hole (apologies),

However a better anology would be "hes a jack of all trades, but a master of none" 

Given we have examples of characters being made Radiants just because they are Kholins, without them being particularity fitting (Elhokar, Renarin), skipping over Adolin is odd. If he could fit into various orders (I am not sure I agree with this, but let's say I do for the shake of the argument), then one spren ought to have taken a chance with him, just because of his lineage. 

[Delightful]

Just finished and I am FREAKING OUT that was one hell of a wild ride. 

[Ammanas]

7 hours ago, Del-light-full said:

Just finished and I am FREAKING OUT that was one hell of a wild ride. 

Welcome to the club of those who have finished this massive tome! Did life get busy for you or were you just taking your time savoring it?

[Delightful]

8 hours ago, Ammanas said:

Welcome to the club of those who have finished this massive tome! Did life get busy for you or were you just taking your time savoring it?

I was reading it with my husband, so we could only read when we both had time. So it took a while. It was great though. By myself I would have swallowed it in about a week, he's more into savouring the experience. But it meant we could freak out and speculate together and that was awesome. 

And just....now I don't have to fear spoilers! finally!

[Aizhen]

 

On 3/17/2018 at 5:03 AM, IronBars said:

I haven't read all 32 pages of this thread, but just want to chime in here about Adolin, 

Thirdly

Personally i think Adolin hasn't attracted a spren because while he seems to have traits that could fit several orders, he doesn't have the traits of any order fully, 

I used a horrible analogy in a different thread saying he was like a pyramid shape trying to fit in a conical shaped hole (apologies),

However a better anology would be "hes a jack of all trades, but a master of none" 

I have never tried quoting anyone before, so I apologized if I did it wrong; also I could spend all day everyday reading through these boards, but alas I have four small children and a part time job. So I have not read this whole thread either.

But personally, I think Adolin (can I mention I hate auto correct changing his name to Adolf every storming time I type it?) has not attracted a spren before because his soul wasn’t cracked enough. This is an assumption, of course, because we clearly do not know much about his past, but we know his mother was a loving mother and his father was proud of him. Dalinar’s back flashes mention several times how well he is turning out, how capable he is socially, and how when corrected Adolin doesn’t wilt but rather tries harder. I think his life was pretty perfect- until he killed Sadeas. I think, I hope, that is cracking him enough to somehow awaken Maya (audible listener, can’t spell half the names). Otherwise, I think it’s a little weird for us to have met her in shadesmar, and have her tell him her name AND have her revive in only seven seconds. That was awesome.

Fantastic book. Loved it beginning to end, and more each time I listen to it.

[IronBars he/him]

23 hours ago, maxal said:

the Number One question should be the: "What, Where, How, Why", not the "Oh well, now let's start training".

This is exactly what i think, much of OB is dedicated to politically unite Roshar, (way to much of the book) yet not one sentence is spared for how to find more proto-radiants, what to look out for in order to locate them, how radiants come to be, why radiants are chosen by different spren, what can they do to encourage certain people to attract spren etc , this seems a glaring omission and are such obvious questions for in world characters to ask it makes no sense that no one did...

23 hours ago, maxal said:

Given we have examples of characters being made Radiants just because they are Kholins, without them being particularity fitting (Elhokar, Renarin), skipping over Adolin is odd. If he could fit into various orders (I am not sure I agree with this, but let's say I do for the shake of the argument), then one spren ought to have taken a chance with him, just because of his lineage. 

Il be honest here, and say i do not think Elhokar(yes He wasnt but had attracted a spren so was going to be) or Renarin (not really a radiant anyway since he has a corrupted spren) deserve to be radiants and if navani becomes one than id be pretty annoyed.(unpopular opinion)

Also i think can question the worthiness of Dalinar being one given hes only one because of cultivation.(unpopular opinion)

Regards Adolin, he could fit with the windrunners technically, because he always protected his men, risking himself to protect lives, ie on plautau runs always went over the bridges first so hes men wouldnt suffer etc up until he kills Sadeas he is also seemingly very honourable, (killing Sadeas also could be seen as honourable ie honour demanded he avenge his men who died because of Sadeas, depends on your point of view on that). He protected the prostitute in Sadeas camp. So he has traits that could see him earn an honourspren in my opinion.

For some reason i also think he could suit the Dustbringers, don't have a clear reason why for this.

Stonewards - described as exemplifying resolve, strength, and dependability (he shows these characteristics) also they were prone to last stands, i think the battle of narak showcases how Adolin could fit into this order. Also in the dueling ring against 4 opponents.

Edgedancers - seemingly the most popular one for Adolin to be associated with due to maya, only way he fits here in my opinion is this "although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned;" fits Adolins skill with a blade but fits any top level swordsman.

skybreakers - maybe here to because he sought justice against Sadeas (by killing him) regardless of what could happen to him, "I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. Szeth-son-Neturo"

"You'd let it go, then?''Storms, no,' Kaladin said. 'I'd find my own justice.' 'Oh...' Syl settled on his shoulder. They walked for a long while, eventually approaching the warcamp. 'You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin,' Syl finally said. 'You're not supposed to be like this"

and he rigidly followed the Alethi codes as well.

these are loose connections, but show imo how he could fit but doesn't actually fit hence my analogy of "jack of all trades, but master of none"

@Aizhen the point of not being cracked enough is a good one, but we haven't seen enough to really tell, the cracked thing you mentioned regards Adolin could be applied to Renarin as well though, yet he attracted a spren, albeit a corrupted one, so did Elhokar so it seems maybe people don't need to be as cracked/broken, as much as we thought to begin forming a bond.

Even with shallan we don't know how she became "cracked/broken" even after her flashback book.

Edited March 18, 2018 by IronBars

[Aizhen]

12 minutes ago, IronBars said:

 

@Aizhen the point of not being cracked enough is a good one, but we haven't seen enough to really tell, the cracked thing you mentioned could be applied to Renarin as wel, yet he attracted a spren, albeit a corrupted one, so did Elhokar so it seems maybe people don't neee to be as cracked/broken, as much as we thought to begin forming a bond.

Even with shallan we don't know how she became "cracked/broken" even after her flashback book.

Whoa, if you’re right, I will have to change the way i’ve read the back stories. I thought that was the point to the back stories; to see where the cracks came from- for Kaladin it was the many times he tried to save people and failed, cracked him a little more each time. Sargent Pit in Book two say something about sadeas “Broke us right good” but that “turns out men can be reforged” which was what Syl kept trying to get through to him. So I was thinking any of the bridgemen would be cracked enough. And my understanding is that’s Shallan’s cracking began with killing her mother and only continued as she kept her silence and watched her father become a monster until she finally killed him. Dalinar with his past of death and destruction... Remorse or grief seem to be a big part of it for these characters.  

I know we haven’t gotten the books for Renarin and Jasnah yet, but we know Renarin has never fit in, has always been ill, can’t be the man he thinks he needs to be for his father’s or society’s approval... and we get a brief glimpse in this book into Jasnah’s past: a bout, maybe more of “insanity” or not being in control of herself.  

I have always assumed those were the source of the cracks. Adolin doesn’t seem to regret the action of killing Sade’s- I cheered- but he seems to have been made to see himself as “less” than he thought he was. He feels like a lie... So I don’t know for sure if that or any of these experiences are enough for soul cracking or not, it’s just what I’ve been assuming all this time. 

Elokar, I would love to know more about him. Because even if his experiences in book 2 could warrant a crack- realizing he does not have the capacity for the position he has been given- even *if* that’s enough to crack him, he was seeing cryptics in mirrors back in book one.

[IronBars he/him]

4 minutes ago, Aizhen said:

Whoa, if you’re right, I will have to change the way i’ve read the back stories. I thought that was the point to the back stories; to see where the cracks came from- for Kaladin it was the many times he tried to save people and failed, cracked him a little more each time. Sargent Pit in Book two say something about sadeas “Broke us right good” but that “turns out men can be reforged” which was what Syl kept trying to get through to him. So I was thinking any of the bridgemen would be cracked enough. And my understanding is that’s Shallan’s cracking began with killing her mother and only continued as she kept her silence and watched her father become a monster until she finally killed him. Dalinar with his past of death and destruction... Remorse or grief seem to be a big part of it for these characters.  

Kaldin cracked a little everytime he tried save someone and failed i think, starting with the little girl in heartstone, 

Shallan killee her mother with a shardblade, so she had bonded pattern before that, so must of at least spoke the first ideal before then, and possibly one or 2 truths, to be able make pattern a shardblade, so we don't see how she was cracked/broken.

8 minutes ago, Aizhen said:

I know we haven’t gotten the books for Renarin and Jasnah yet, but we know Renarin has never fit in, has always been ill, can’t be the man he thinks he needs to be for his father’s or society’s approval... and we get a brief glimpse in this book into Jasnah’s past: a bout, maybe more of “insanity” or not being in control of herself.  

Renarin being socially awkward and not fitting in doesn't seem enough imo i think something more must have happened, as to what im not sure.

Regards jasnah i think the "lunacy" was when she bonded ivory, confided in someone the things she was seeing etc and they thought she was made leading to a an attempt to maybe perform something along the lines of an exorcism by the vorin church, hence why shes a heretic, might be wrong on that but when i read the passage on her "lunacy" that was my immediate thought.

14 minutes ago, Aizhen said:

I have always assumed those were the source of the cracks. Adolin doesn’t seem to regret the action of killing Sade’s- I cheered- but he seems to have been made to see himself as “less” than he thought he was. He feels like a lie... So I don’t know for sure if that or any of these experiences are enough for soul cracking or not, it’s just what I’ve been assuming all this time. 

Ya Adolin doesnt seem to have any real reaction to killing Sadeas, i had thought he would.

15 minutes ago, Aizhen said:

Elokar, I would love to know more about him. Because even if his experiences in book 2 could warrant a crack- realizing he does not have the capacity for the position he has been given- even *if* that’s enough to crack him, he was seeing cryptics in mirrors back in book one.

Ya your right, i agree what we see in book two isn't what cracked him since as you said he is seeing the cryptics in book one so his cracking must predate that, 

Maybe will find out that in jasnahs flashback book as well.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Aizhen said:

 

I have never tried quoting anyone before, so I apologized if I did it wrong; also I could spend all day everyday reading through these boards, but alas I have four small children and a part time job. So I have not read this whole thread either.

But personally, I think Adolin (can I mention I hate auto correct changing his name to Adolf every storming time I type it?) has not attracted a spren before because his soul wasn’t cracked enough. This is an assumption, of course, because we clearly do not know much about his past, but we know his mother was a loving mother and his father was proud of him. Dalinar’s back flashes mention several times how well he is turning out, how capable he is socially, and how when corrected Adolin doesn’t wilt but rather tries harder. I think his life was pretty perfect- until he killed Sadeas. I think, I hope, that is cracking him enough to somehow awaken Maya (audible listener, can’t spell half the names). Otherwise, I think it’s a little weird for us to have met her in shadesmar, and have her tell him her name AND have her revive in only seven seconds. That was awesome.

Fantastic book. Loved it beginning to end, and more each time I listen to it.

You did fine quoting your first post. Many of us also have children too: my own are slowly stopping being so young though I find their age group to be more demanding than the little ones, but this another story all together.

We have had several discussions on the matter of whether or not Adolin is broken. Obviously we do not all agree one with another and my personal thoughts are the narrative, as it is written, doesn't allow us to conclude about it in a definite way. Thus, we are left with the argumentation we can make out of the narrative and our impressions.

I will thus say a few words here because I cannot completely agree with your statement of Adolin's life having been perfect, up until he kills Sadeas.

Upon the day of his birth, Adolin became the recipient of his father's impossible expectations. He was to be honorable, noble, strong with just enough compassion not to turn into a monster: he was to be the boy to redeem Dalinar of his fault, the chance he got at life to make it better. Oh how Dalinar seems to love this new boy he proudly holds at the end of his arms, but his love bore out more of what Adolin could be, it never were about who he was. Having children yourself, I am sure you will agree we cannot love them for what we want them to be: we have to love them for what they are. Where I live, when a mother goes to childbirth, others will tell her: "Have a nice meeting". A meeting. Why? Because you are meeting a new person, a new individual and you have to start getting acquainted. Hence, I did feel Adolin's birth scene never carried the same signification as the births I have seen myself as Dalinar never had any interest in finding out who Adolin was, but he did have interest in having be what he decided he should be.

Later, we learn Dalinar goes back warring and refuses to go home. He hadn't seen little Adolin in more than a year: the boy having been a toddler fumbling with his words the last time he saw him. Little Adolin (about 4 and a half years old at the time) doesn't remember his father, doesn't recognize him. He doesn't know him either. There is none of the playfulness little ones have with their father in between him and Dalinar: he was just a little boy meeting a man he was told was his great daddy, but he obviously never spent enough time with him to have a connection. Oh and how the little one wants to please this daddy of his! Saluting him! Stating how he will win his own Blade, like his daddy. He was 4 and already he was trying to please daddy in any way a child this age can think of. 

We learn within the same scenes how Dalinar didn't bother to visit little Renarin, didn't bother to send for a name. When he sees Renarin for the first time, he feels nothing. He was hoping to feel something, like when he saw Adolin, but there was nothing. Why is this? Little Renarin wasn't labelled as different yet nor was he sick yet. So why can't Dalinar have a reaction to him? Why can't he seem to love him as he supposedly love Adolin? My thoughts are this is because he has no expectations left for Renarin: all the ones he ever got, he gave them to Adolin. Dalinar's love is not giving, it is demanding, hence he loves Adolin for what he could be, not having any expectations for Renarin, he cannot be interested in him, he cannot love him, not until the boy gives him something.

We move a few years later and young Adolin is now an energetic, happy 12 years old kid. He hasn't reached puberty yet. He is still, very much, a child. He loves his daddy and those scenes are about the only one where we see some love pass down from Dalinar to Adolin. How Dalinar is proud of this son he can showcase into his meetings with older generals! I have referred to this phase as the "seducing phase", the time period where Dalinar actually tried to be a good father to Adolin though, as always, his love is intrinsically tied to Adolin's ability to grow into the man he wants him to grow into. 

Then, Dalinar sends Adolin back home to go attack the Rift. Adolin bares farewell to the mother he will never see again. Of the events which later happened, he is told a lie. Adolin is told Evi was killed by rebels. He is told Sadeas burned Rathalas and everyone living in it in retribution. In his head, he made up a narrative where Dalinar was unable to stop Sadeas because he was grieving and injured. Still in Adolin's mind, it is inconceivable Dalinar could have a hand into what happens. Adolin firmly believes Dalinar would have NEVER agreed to burn the Rift under normal circumstances and it only happened because of Sadeas and his father not being able to take actions. How much of young Adolin's hate and disrespect towards Sadeas comes from thinking he's the man who destroyed Rathalas? 

Afterwards, Dalinar turns into an abusive father. Everything about Adolin reminds him of the woman he hated: his hair, his eyes, his smile, his genuine sincerity, his endeavor to always do better whenever criticized. I do believe Dalinar never really loved Evi, though he never wish her death. He does not miss her, but feels horribly guilty for what happened, how it happened and I personally suspect part of his guilt is linked to him not being able to like her. He hated her and he hates himself for not having loved her.

Adolin however is unable to question his father, to rebel against him and to see him in any other light than a positive one. He takes the rebuffs, the criticizes, the harshness, he takes it all in and worst, he believes he deserves it. Just like his mother who strove to learn how to scribe with her right hand, despite being left-handed, to the extend where other women approved of her work: she never once said it was unfair she was to be judged upon it. Adolin, like Evi, just constantly tried to do better, but never really managed to succeed.

In Oathbringer, it is highlighted on a few occasions how little Adolin thinks of himself, how unworthy he believes he is, how meaningless the skills he knows he possesses are. Whatever he does, Adolin always thinks it is not enough nor good enough, but he always puts on a strong face and try. Again. And again. Unlike his brother, he never falls into victimization or complaining: he just works harder.

How broken is this young man now? Were he living within the real-world, I don't think we would even have this discussion: any young man having brutally lost a parent at a young age, having grown-up with an abusive drunk father who constantly diminished them would be given a lot of sympathy. However, since we are in Alethkar and our other examples have lived life so horrible they have very few real-life counter-parts, Adolin gets to be told his life was perfect.

I say perfect is an over-statement, but I will also say Adolin does not want to break. He wants to stay strong, at all times. He refuses to give up nor to allow his hardships keep him from trying: how many cracks and scars this kind of attitude has created in him? How long can someone be told by a father they perceive as a God they aren't worth much before their effort to prove themselves stopped being a meaningful coping mechanism? 

A lot of my pre-OB discussion had to do with the Dalinar/Adolin relationship. I have often said it was unhealthy, Dalinar was needlessly harsh with Adolin: very few readers bought onto the idea, but of all my speculative theories, this one is the one which came true. Not only Dalinar has been a crap father to Adolin, I am now doubting he actually loves him. If Adolin stops being what he wants him to be, can Dalinar still love him? Can he? 

3 hours ago, IronBars said:

Regards Adolin, he could fit with the windrunners technically, because he always protected his men, risking himself to protect lives, ie on plautau runs always went over the bridges first so hes men wouldnt suffer etc up until he kills Sadeas he is also seemingly very honourable, (killing Sadeas also could be seen as honourable ie honour demanded he avenge his men who died because of Sadeas, depends on your point of view on that). He protected the prostitute in Sadeas camp. So he has traits that could see him earn an honourspren in my opinion.

Windrunners are a very demanding order which requires its members to be honorable at all costs. Hitting Roshone was frown upon by Syl and Kaladin had to apologized which isn't something Adolin would have done (the apologizing, not the hitting). I don't believe one second they Windrunners would approve of Sadeas's murder because it wasn't honorable. Also, while Adolin has always strove to act with honor, because his father demanded it of him, deep down he doesn't see honor as a finality in itself. I think Windspren would see it right away and, as such, I don't believe Adolin would have ever been a good candidate for this order.

3 hours ago, IronBars said:

For some reason i also think he could suit the Dustbringers, don't have a clear reason why for this.

The Dustbringers used to be a popular pick for Adolin because readers saw them as brave warriors wrecking havoc onto the battlefield. A lot of readers tend to define Adolin solely through his battle prowess often forgetting the character doesn't even enjoy it. He wants to be useful, but he does not love the battle field nor does he enjoy destroying things. In OB, we are told Dustbringers are about people enjoying breaking things apart to see what is inside: I can't think of one argument which makes Adolin suitable for this now.

3 hours ago, IronBars said:

Stonewards - described as exemplifying resolve, strength, and dependability (he shows these characteristics) also they were prone to last stands, i think the battle of narak showcases how Adolin could fit into this order. Also in the dueling ring against 4 opponents.

We do not know much about Stonewards and, as such, it is hard to figure out what kind of individuals they would pick. I personally never saw Adolin as one because he isn't a soldier at heart nor is he one to waste his men trying to defend an impossible stance. He did stand against opponents, this is true, but somehow, Stonewards just do not fit for me. Arguably, we are working with impressions here, so hard to have a valid argumentation.

3 hours ago, IronBars said:

Edgedancers - seemingly the most popular one for Adolin to be associated with due to maya, only way he fits here in my opinion is this "although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned;" fits Adolins skill with a blade but fits any top level swordsman.

Edgedancers is the one order I have always seen Adolin into because, deep down, I firmly believe he is more like Evi than Dalinar. He constantly tried to help, he saves others whenever he gets the chance and he never forgets the people who follows him. He's genuine, he cares and most of his actions are dictated by love.

3 hours ago, IronBars said:

skybreakers - maybe here to because he sought justice against Sadeas (by killing him) regardless of what could happen to him, "I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. Szeth-son-Neturo"

The Skybreakers are not about justice, they are about obeying a superior law. By breaking said law to murder Sadeas, Adolin literally bared himself from this order: Brandon confirmed they would never want him. Either way, they are too stiff, too mean, too rigid for Adolin to have ever fit with them. He would have never punish the guardians for the escaped prisoners: he would have been more likely to feel sorry for them all than wanting to hurt them. Skybreakers all seem to enjoy inflicting pains on the pretense it was deserved: I just can't see Adolin ever being one of them, even without Sadeas.

[IronBars he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Windrunners are a very demanding order which requires its members to be honorable at all costs. Hitting Roshone was frown upon by Syl and Kaladin had to apologized which isn't something Adolin would have done (the apologizing, not the hitting). I don't believe one second they Windrunners would approve of Sadeas's murder because it wasn't honorable. Also, while Adolin has always strove to act with honor, because his father demanded it of him, deep down he doesn't see honor as a finality in itself. I think Windspren would see it right away and, as such, I don't believe Adolin would have ever been a good candidate for this order.

The Dustbringers used to be a popular pick for Adolin because readers saw them as brave warriors wrecking havoc onto the battlefield. A lot of readers tend to define Adolin solely through his battle prowess often forgetting the character doesn't even enjoy it. He wants to be useful, but he does not love the battle field nor does he enjoy destroying things. In OB, we are told Dustbringers are about people enjoying breaking things apart to see what is inside: I can't think of one argument which makes Adolin suitable for this now.

We do not know much about Stonewards and, as such, it is hard to figure out what kind of individuals they would pick. I personally never saw Adolin as one because he isn't a soldier at heart nor is he one to waste his men trying to defend an impossible stance. He did stand against opponents, this is true, but somehow, Stonewards just do not fit for me. Arguably, we are working with impressions here, so hard to have a valid argumentation.

Edgedancers is the one order I have always seen Adolin into because, deep down, I firmly believe he is more like Evi than Dalinar. He constantly tried to help, he saves others whenever he gets the chance and he never forgets the people who follows him. He's genuine, he cares and most of his actions are dictated by love.

The Skybreakers are not about justice, they are about obeying a superior law. By breaking said law to murder Sadeas, Adolin literally bared himself from this order: Brandon confirmed they would never want him. Either way, they are too stiff, too mean, too rigid for Adolin to have ever fit with them. He would have never punish the guardians for the escaped prisoners: he would have been more likely to feel sorry for them all than wanting to hurt them. Skybreakers all seem to enjoy inflicting pains on the pretense it was deserved: I just can't see Adolin ever being one of them, even without Sadeas.

My point with these orders was not to show how he fits each one, but to show how he has traits from each but doesn't embody any order that we have seen.

Brandon writes a very narrow view of honour in the SA, i say this to you.saying how Adolin killing Sadeas wouldn't of been approved of by honourspren, because in reality Adolin/Dalinar should be honour bound to find justice for there men they lost over Sadeas. Same with kaladin wanting to eliminate amaram for killing his friends, leaving the person responcible for killing your friends walk around unpunished is not honourable.

As for the skybreakers i think they used follow justice, not the laws of man, so while the current skybreakers wouldnt accept him now the old ones might, because justice and the law are not really the same thing, when Sadeas was killed it was justice.

About the stonewards/dustbringers we don't know enough, given we have Lift and her oaths to judge edgedancers on i cant see how Adolin fits them, not saying Lift is the Atypical edgedancers but what her oaths are Adolin doesn't embody.