[OB] Shallan V Re-Shepnir

[Leyrann]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

I feel like this isn't the end of that library. I wonder if Progression can heal more than just living tissue? For example, if there's a decayed book, it might still think of itself as a book in the CR or have an ideal state in the SR, and maybe Progression can use either to make it whole again.

I believe that Progression works by making reality match Identity again, which would mean that, indeed, you would be able to fix it with Progression.

Renarin has some work ahead of him...

[Fifth of Daybreak]

9 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Re-Shepir is a chump.

This millenia old being was punked by Shallan of all people......El Oh El

 

Hopefully we get tougher cooler Unmade.

Are you kidding? This was the perfect task for Shallan.

Re-Shepir:“And what if I think I’m beginning to understand you?”

Shallan: “Then I’m at a severe advantage, Kabsal tried that line already."

Edited October 31, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[The Invested Beard]

I'm beginning to think more and more that the champion thing is a big fat red herring. Just a hunch.

[Gigalemesh]

42 minutes ago, Shadowmancer said:

I've always wanted to ask Brandon if this tradition is more than just a strange form of modesty, if there is some functionality attached to it. All scientifically recorded modes of modesty spring from some sort of semi-logical basis. This is the first evidence I've seen that this Alethi tradition has more meat to it than just a strange quirk that Brandon thought up.

There is a WoB about this stating that in its current incarnation at least, it stems from an attempt to stop women being able to fight and claim shards.

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Gigalemesh said:

There is a WoB about this stating that in its current incarnation at least, it stems from an attempt to stop women being able to fight and claim shards.

I've never seen that one! 

Wishing I had arcanum right now. 

[Gigalemesh]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

I've never seen that one! 

Wishing I had arcanum right now. 

I just saw it in a different thread, I'll try and find it now.

[Gigalemesh]

Found it! 

 it's in the thread about the inside cover art

[Salkara]

3 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I believe that Progression works by making reality match Identity again, which would mean that, indeed, you would be able to fix it with Progression.

Renarin has some work ahead of him...

I mean, I like the idea, but I also feel like it'll cheapen the narrative. All of a sudden the characters have access to loads of ancient knowledge while we still have 7 books to go? I think some of the books will be salvageable but not all. This will allow some knowledge gain, but we won't have ignorant characters suddenly becoming ancient scholars.

As for how Progression works, I think it follows the normal pattern of cosmere healing. Namely, Investiture fixes the body in the Physical Realm so it matches the person's healing template contained in their Spiritweb and filtered by residual self-image in the Cognitive Realm (which is why Kaladin still has his slave brands, and yes, I just pulled a term straight from the Matrix; it was an amazing movie). For Progression to fix the books, I think they'll have to have a spirit, which is where I think the idea falls apart. The books are definitely present in the PR and almost certainly exist in the CR, but I'm not sold on them each having a Spirit.

Separate idea. What if Shallan is able to combine Illumination and Transformation in someway to fix the books? Might it be possible for Shallan to view a book in the CR, learn its residual self-image, and then Soulcast it to that form? We've seen Jasnah Soulcast ink directly onto a page, so minute transformations like decayed pages to whole, word-filled pages should be possible.

[Leyrann]

4 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I mean, I like the idea, but I also feel like it'll cheapen the narrative. All of a sudden the characters have access to loads of ancient knowledge while we still have 7 books to go? I think some of the books will be salvageable but not all. This will allow some knowledge gain, but we won't have ignorant characters suddenly becoming ancient scholars.

As for how Progression works, I think it follows the normal pattern of cosmere healing. Namely, Investiture fixes the body in the Physical Realm so it matches the person's healing template contained in their Spiritweb and filtered by residual self-image in the Cognitive Realm (which is why Kaladin still has his slave brands, and yes, I just pulled a term straight from the Matrix; it was an amazing movie). For Progression to fix the books, I think they'll have to have a spirit, which is where I think the idea falls apart. The books are definitely present in the PR and almost certainly exist in the CR, but I'm not sold on them each having a Spirit.

Separate idea. What if Shallan is able to combine Illumination and Transformation in someway to fix the books? Might it be possible for Shallan to view a book in the CR, learn its residual self-image, and then Soulcast it to that form? We've seen Jasnah Soulcast ink directly onto a page, so minute transformations like decayed pages to whole, word-filled pages should be possible.

I'm pretty sure that we're actually agreeing here, and that the Spiritweb is actually the same as Identity, just viewed in different ways. The question I want to pose to you is - how does the Investiture know what to fix? I think that it is Identity, and that Identity is how a person or thing views itself. Just like that, a Soulcaster also has to convince the Identity to change in order for anything to happen.

On a semi-related note, I don't think that having access to the "ancient knowledge" will be enough to solve all problems. After all, in those ancient times each Desolation also almost wiped out humanity, and there are (at least according to some theories) reasons to assume that every next Desolation is worse. And it's also not like the people from the days of Urithiru were Cosmere-aware or somthing.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Leyrann

[CaptainRyan]

9 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

There is a WoB about this stating that [the covering of the safehand] at least, it stems from an attempt to stop women being able to fight and claim shards.

 

4 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

 

it's in the thread about the inside cover art

I think it might be worth noting that there is a difference between designating a safehand and regarding it as a sexualized part of the body that needs to be covered.

While it is entirely probable that the tradition of covering the safehand for "modesty" reasons started around the same time society started emphasizing "women's activities = 1-handed, men's activities = 2-handed", the WoBs quoted in this thread do not explicitly state that. They state that the idea of a safehand began at this time but who knows when that morphed into the safehand being viewed as sexually explicit and, therefore, needed to be covered. I mean, according to these WoBs it seems that the idea of a "safehand" was not universally accepted at the time of the Recreance (when all the shards became available) and it would be a stretch, in my mind, to suddenly have women sew hand-sleeves on their dresses (or wear gloves) overnight. I think the covered, sexualized safehand gradually became a thing over a generation (or several generations).

So, I'm not saying that you (or Calderis) is wrong but I do think it is worth considering that safehands came first and the modesty concept around the safehand came later.

[Knabepicer]

7 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I mean, I like the idea, but I also feel like it'll cheapen the narrative. All of a sudden the characters have access to loads of ancient knowledge while we still have 7 books to go? I think some of the books will be salvageable but not all. This will allow some knowledge gain, but we won't have ignorant characters suddenly becoming ancient scholars.

As for how Progression works, I think it follows the normal pattern of cosmere healing. Namely, Investiture fixes the body in the Physical Realm so it matches the person's healing template contained in their Spiritweb and filtered by residual self-image in the Cognitive Realm (which is why Kaladin still has his slave brands, and yes, I just pulled a term straight from the Matrix; it was an amazing movie). For Progression to fix the books, I think they'll have to have a spirit, which is where I think the idea falls apart. The books are definitely present in the PR and almost certainly exist in the CR, but I'm not sold on them each having a Spirit.

Separate idea. What if Shallan is able to combine Illumination and Transformation in someway to fix the books? Might it be possible for Shallan to view a book in the CR, learn its residual self-image, and then Soulcast it to that form? We've seen Jasnah Soulcast ink directly onto a page, so minute transformations like decayed pages to whole, word-filled pages should be possible.

I think there’s some evidence for inanimate objects having a Spiritual component.

Spoiler

Soulstamps seem to rely on modifying an object’s Spiritual element.

 

[Gigalemesh]

6 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

 

I think it might be worth noting that there is a difference between designating a safehand and regarding it as a sexualized part of the body that needs to be covered.

While it is entirely probable that the tradition of covering the safehand for "modesty" reasons started around the same time society started emphasizing "women's activities = 1-handed, men's activities = 2-handed", the WoBs quoted in this thread do not explicitly state that. They state that the idea of a safehand began at this time but who knows when that morphed into the safehand being viewed as sexually explicit and, therefore, needed to be covered. I mean, according to these WoBs it seems that the idea of a "safehand" was not universally accepted at the time of the Recreance (when all the shards became available) and it would be a stretch, in my mind, to suddenly have women sew hand-sleeves on their dresses (or wear gloves) overnight. I think the covered, sexualized safehand gradually became a thing over a generation (or several generations).

So, I'm not saying that you (or Calderis) is wrong but I do think it is worth considering that safehands came first and the modesty concept around the safehand came later.

I completely agree with you, it would likely have taken quite a long time after the institution of the "1 hand = feminine" idea to result in the concept of a specific safe hand, and longer for all the culture around it to arise, especially the idea that is is somehow sexual to see a safe hand. Just saying that it has its roots in that, as people were wondering where it could have come from.

[kari-no-sugata]

7 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

On a semi-related note, I don't think that having access to the "ancient knowledge" will be enough to solve all problems. After all, in those ancient times each Desolation also almost wiped out humanity, and there are (at least according to some theories) reasons to assume that every next Desolation is worse. And it's also not like the people from the days of Urithiru were Cosmere-aware or somthing.

I'd say the same. It's not like the ancient Radiants or the Heralds would have left behind a blueprint for how to defeat Odium. Also, most of the books will probably be from several thousand years after the last Desolation - it's not like all the info will be accurate.

Perhaps it'll finally be time to put the ability to translate Dawnchant to use...

[Steeldancer]

28 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

Found it! 

 it's in the thread about the inside cover art

And of course it came from Calderis, and presumably from Arcanum. *sigh*. 

[Salkara]

4 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I'm pretty sure that we're actually agreeing here, and that the Spiritweb is actually the same as Identity, just viewed in different ways. The question I want to pose to you is - how does the Investiture know what to fix? I think that it is Identity, and that Identity is how a person or thing views itself. Just like that, a Soulcaster also has to convince the Identity to change in order for anything to happen.

On a semi-related note, I don't think that having access to the "ancient knowledge" will be enough to solve all problems. After all, in those ancient times each Desolation also almost wiped out humanity, and there are (at least according to some theories) reasons to assume that every next Desolation is worse. And it's also not like the people from the days of Urithiru were Cosmere-aware or somthing.

I think a person's Spiritweb comprises a person's aspects in the SR. If we use the Feruchemical table as a guide, this would include Identity, Fortune, Investiture, and Connection. So Identity would be a component of the Spiritweb, but they wouldn't be equivalent. Per WoB, "the power to heal" is from the SR but it gets "filtered through how you see yourself" in the CR. I'd argue that something like a book wouldn't have a Spiritweb healing template, so it wouldn't be able to heal (as a side note: this is probably why dead sprenblades don't heal).

As for "ancient knowledge" not being enough to solve all problems, I agree, but I don't necessarily think Desolations got worse with each iteration. Founding the Knights Radiant probably made future Desolations easier, and that didn't happen at the beginning. Also, in the prelude, we see that 90% of the Heralds survived the last Desolation. To me, that sounds like they may have been getting easier, but that wouldn't really matter to the group who got to celebrate victory by returning to the torture chamber.

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, Salkara said:

I think a person's Spiritweb comprises a person's aspects in the SR. If we use the Feruchemical table as a guide, this would include Identity, Fortune, Investiture, and Connection. So Identity would be a component of the Spiritweb, but they wouldn't be equivalent. Per WoB, "the power to heal" is from the SR but it gets "filtered through how you see yourself" in the CR. I'd argue that something like a book wouldn't have a Spiritweb healing template, so it wouldn't be able to heal (as a side note: this is probably why dead sprenblades don't heal).

First of all, I want to very much thank you for that WoB, which answers a question regarding Investiture that I was about to start working on, but now don't need to anymore. (that question is related to Progression, by the way)

For the rest, I was going to argue some stuff, but actually, I think you're pretty much right. Also, thinking about it actually solved some additional problems regarding what I was working on. Enough that I think I can post the theory tomorrow evening the latest... Oh this is gonna be a fun one.

[Nymeros]

5 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Roshar is composed of the 10 fundamental forces/spren. Syl is a windspren but with a chunk of Honor's power attached granting her sentience and special power.  Pattern is a creationspren with a chunk of Cultivation.  This Unmade seems to be a creationspren with a very large chunk of Odium's power attached to it.

I don't think any of that is actually true though.

[StormingTexan]

This is probably my favorite scene so far in OB. We get to see an actual fight against something of Odium and it was not by who I thought it would be. I didn't really think of Lightwevers in full on combat and it was a lot more awesome than I thought it would be. Sure the unmade wasn't at full power yet and Shallan essentially just scared her off but it was still really fun to see this on screen. Shallan is going to be a badass. 

[Unhinged]

9 hours ago, Salkara said:

Separate idea. What if Shallan is able to combine Illumination and Transformation in someway to fix the books? Might it be possible for Shallan to view a book in the CR, learn its residual self-image, and then Soulcast it to that form? We've seen Jasnah Soulcast ink directly onto a page, so minute transformations like decayed pages to whole, word-filled pages should be possible.

I see foresee this exchange in the future.

"you want to become whole"

"I AM A BOOK"

well actually it would probably be more like "I am a broken book" but that doesn't sound quite as catchy.

In all seriousness I can see the cognitive versions of those decaying pieces of book happily remembering the time when they were whole and wanting to go back to that so I don't think soulcasting would be terribly difficult.

[Salkara]

56 minutes ago, Unhinged said:

I see foresee this exchange in the future.

"you want to become whole"

"I AM A BOOK"

well actually it would probably be more like "I am a broken book" but that doesn't sound quite as catchy.

In all seriousness I can see the cognitive versions of those decaying pieces of book happily remembering the time when they were whole and wanting to go back to that so I don't think soulcasting would be terribly difficult.

It would be funny to see Shallan getting all worked up about BOOK, then Jasnah arrives and goes, "Oh good, you found the library," and *poof* all the books are restored.

[Calderis]

@CaptainRyan yeah, the modest/sexualization of the safehand most likely came later.

What I get from those WoBs, though it's not specifically stated, is that safehand sleeves started as a status symbol, in my mind similar to woman's clothing having the buttons placed on the opposite side to men's clothing (as in days gone by, women had dressing attendees to do up their clothes, so the buttons were made for a typically right handed person to dress another). 

If you make anything taboo though, it will eventually become desirable in one way or another. Link that taboo to femininity... And yeah. 

11 hours ago, Knabepicer said:

I think there’s some evidence for inanimate objects having a Spiritual component.

  Reveal hidden contents

Soulstamps seem to rely on modifying an object’s Spiritual element.

 

Everything in the Cosmere exist in all three realms (with some notable exceptions). 

@Steeldancer I know you're looking forward to Arcanum, and jealous of us working on it, but it's only another week.

Also 1) I've only been working on Arcanum for a couple months. 

2) you still need to know what your looking for to find it. Remembering the proper wording and source means that you can find them, and those safehand WoBs are in theoryland. 

3) Arcanum is a work in progress. There's a lot in it already, but there are things that aren't yet. I don't use Arcanum exclusively. Even when I do, a lot of the tricks I learned searching theoryland still help using Arcanum. 

The wait will be over soon, dude.

[Marethyu316]

11 hours ago, Salkara said:

I mean, I like the idea, but I also feel like it'll cheapen the narrative. All of a sudden the characters have access to loads of ancient knowledge while we still have 7 books to go? I think some of the books will be salvageable but not all. This will allow some knowledge gain, but we won't have ignorant characters suddenly becoming ancient scholars.

If the books are really old they might be written in the Dawnchant (the writing on the Oathgate was) and they just started unraveling that thanks to Dalinar's visions. That would mean that it would take a lot more work to decipher the meaning of the books, even if Renarin or possibly Shallan can restore them relatively instantaneously.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Marethyu316

[dvoraen]

One thing I will say about the whole Shallan v Re-Shephir thing is that it was a very circumstantial victory.  I think it was only possible because it was at Urithiru (where Re-Shephir was likely imprisoned) and with a Lightweaver present.  People were glossing over one rather critical passage:

Quote

Shallan had the distinct and terrifying impression that these things could have swept the bridgemen away at will—overwhelming them in a terrible black tide. But the Midnight Mother wanted to learn; she wanted to fight with spears.

If that was so, however, she was growing impatient.

The only reason the Unmade didn't do that from the start, was because she wanted to try and learn how spearmen fight.  I think had Shallan not been there, that would have inevitably happened.  The Unmade probably would not have tired from remaking her critter army over and over again, while her opponents would've eventually been overcome by their own fatigue.  Some people were calling it anti-climatic, and in a way it was, but I really doubt it will be in any other circumstances.  After all, Shallan doesn't (yet?) know how to imprison Re-Shephir.  As soon as her bluff is seen for what it was, and it was a bluff, I rather doubt Re-Shephir will run away in fear of imprisonment or worse.

Edited November 1, 2017 by dvoraen

[Bort]

16 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

 

I think it might be worth noting that there is a difference between designating a safehand and regarding it as a sexualized part of the body that needs to be covered.

Safehands becoming sexualised is pretty easy to explain. They're forbidden, and people always want what they cannot have. Think of how the concept of modesty has changed over the years. Once, it was scandalous for a woman to reveal her ankles, and people who did were considered shameless. I imagine the safehand is much the same thing.

[Leyrann]

8 hours ago, Unhinged said:

I see foresee this exchange in the future.

"you want to become whole"

"I AM A BOOK"

well actually it would probably be more like "I am a broken book" but that doesn't sound quite as catchy.

In all seriousness I can see the cognitive versions of those decaying pieces of book happily remembering the time when they were whole and wanting to go back to that so I don't think soulcasting would be terribly difficult.

And this is why you should use Regrowth, and not Soulcasting. Soulcasting first needs to convince the Identity to be something and it then bceomes that thing, while Regrowth asks Identity what it's supposed to be and then goes ahead and fixes reality to be that way.