[OB] Oathbringer chapters 28-30

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, Islington said:

Rude. Sorry I apparently insulted your favorite character. 

 

Also, it's going to be a long walk from genocidal doomsday prepper to any kind of honorable leader. He bleeds people to death by the hundreds. He considered sterilizing stupid people. He utilized Szeth to kill an entire royal family several times over to try and kick of Roshar Battle Royale. He's an actual monster. He isn't an antihero, he's an interesting villain. He is capital E evil by basically every definition, and saying "But muh greater good" doesn't justify it per the black and white, good and evil moral code of the narrative. 

 

Are there shades of Gray? Yes, but those shades so far have been navigated to find a definitive truth by our main characters so far. There is Honor and Justice or dishonor and evil, as per the magical rules of the world. 

You're actually being quite rude yourself. He's by no means my favorite character - actually, he doesn't appear in the rankings, as I'm holding off my judgement of him until we've seen more. But you seem to disqualify him from becoming a Bondsmith because of who he is now. But really, is he worse than the Blackthorn? Who did not even kill out of a desire to save the world, but rather because he liked it? Who almost killed his brother to steal his throne from him?

[The Invested Beard]

Haven't read the other thoughts yet, but I just can't wait to get this out...

 

I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT WAS A MIDNIGHT ESSENCE! BWAAAHAHAHAHAA

Anyways, wow what a group of chapters eh? We finally got our first on screen Unmade. And wrapped around Urithiru's power core as well. Too much good stuff my brain's going to explode. Can we just fast forward to 2 weeks from now please?

[Gigalemesh]

4 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I dont think you're being rude, it's just it makes So much sense. it feel like puzzle pieces have fallen into place. That's why I'm so excited about it. 

I'm glad it feels that way for you, having a theory you are excited about is great, and it will be awesome if you are proved right, it's definitely a cool idea. I guess it just doesn't resonate with me the same way, but that is by no means evidence against it

[Islington]

2 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

You're actually being quite rude yourself. He's by no means my favorite character - actually, he doesn't appear in the rankings, as I'm holding off my judgement of him until we've seen more. But you seem to disqualify him from becoming a Bondsmith because of who he is now. But really, is he worse than the Blackthorn? Who did not even kill out of a desire to save the world, but rather because he liked it? Who almost killed his brother to steal his throne from him?

The series isn't going to take place across 30ish years, and Taravangian only really has Adrotagia to facilitate change in his life. Change takes loss or great upheaval of character, both in Sanderson's world and, usually, in real life. Mr T has distanced himself from everyone around him in his singular purpose. 

In all things, he is the anti-Dalinar. Dalinar seeks first mercy, T seeks first "justice". Dalinar seeks diplomacy, T seeks conquest. Dalinar invites those around him in when he sees visions, and then when he becomes a Bondsmith, T makes a secret cabal of assassins and spies when he gets the Diagram. They are meant to be foils. It is very unlikely his character arc is going to be redemption. He's probably going to double down and try to kill Dalinar when he begins unifying the other kingdoms, not see the error of his ways and give himself up for justice. 

 

[flying_shadow]

How does Renarin know that it's an Unmade? Are they common knowledge?

[Agent34]

1 minute ago, Kalinovsky said:

How does Renarin know that it's an Unmade? Are they common knowledge?

Could have to do with his Truthwatchery.

[Mulk]

Kaladin's likely a better warrior than Amaram, which kinda puts the lie to what Amaram says.  He's wrong, but he's convinced he is right.  Lots of bad things have happened over history out of the same combination and I expect more of that here.

Someone earlier pondered why on Roshar the Stormfather chose Gavilar.  IF we look at who is available out of all of the powerful humans we have seen...they aren't much to work with.  Taravangian is, as Stark says, the opposite of a Radiant.  Journey before Destination is inherently the opposite of the Ends Justify the Means.  We've seen what Amaram and Sadeas are/were.  Dalinar was a hotheaded, rampaging murderdemon.  As the Stormfather seems to have been predisposed to pick an Alethi (the whole preserving the arts of War and all that, perhaps?) I can't come up with anyone better.  Maybe it was because Gavilar was on a course of unification even if it was brutal? Maybe because he had a sensation that Gavliar was one who would begin to change with the knowledge he had to give?   Maybe it was just a wing and a prayer, that someone had to have the visions or there would have been no one ready when the time came?  I don't know. We'll have to wait and see.

1 minute ago, Kalinovsky said:

How does Renarin know that it's an Unmade? Are they common knowledge?

I'd assume this is because of his spren and his abilities - he sees, as he puts it.  He knows things others do not know.  It makes sense given what little we know of him and his abilities.

[Gigalemesh]

7 minutes ago, Bernem said:

I was also curious about this WoB that lots of people are mentioning. So for any others who want the direct source, here ya go!

 

Thanks, I have seen that one actually (I checked out the coppermind entry on the desolations). As I said at some point though, a lot less than 99 is still a pretty big range and doesn't pin it down at nine. Of course it shows it is a plausible idea and I can see why people like it. It's just not quite as set in stone as could be implied by some people's posts

[Asim]

2 hours ago, Kalinovsky said:

Today's epigraphs tell us that the author is considered a monster. Mr. T? Eshonai? Neither have been between realms, so that doesn't fit. Damnation, we better find out the author next week!

IMO the author is Dalinar...

1. "Has been" a Monster--- Blackthorne

2. Called Godless Heretic by many

3. Ardents try to force him to take back his words regarding God as we saw in chapters a few weeks back.

4. Killed someone he loved dearly (sshshhh or whatever the new name was)

The rest, i think is in Oathbringer, we will see next month

[Agent34]

I see the "Taravangian can't be a Radiant because of the first Oath" is coming up again so I'll just leave this here

Quote

ANDREWHB

Is Niccolo Machiavelli's political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants' First Oath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli's theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.

QUESTION

As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

#8

 

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, dendrophobe said:

Read it again. Shallan thought the same thing, but she wasn't a member of Bridge Four. Just near them. Different uniform and everything.

  Hide contents

“We must have passed by this point a dozen times,” a soldier said from behind. Shallan started; that voice was female. Indeed, she’d mistaken one of Dalinar’s scouts—the short woman with long hair—for another bridgeman, though her uniform was diff rent. She was inspecting the cuts Shallan had made to get into this room. “Don’t you remember scouting right past that curved hallway outside, Teft?”

 

Ah! I totally misread that.

[Stark]

I like how civil @Gigalemesh and @Steeldancer are being about the disagreement.  I love this theory, but it does have some holes in it.  Big ones.  Like most of our theories.  But I am chanting for it, at least until it is disproved.  The idea of Nine desolations, for nine broken heroes just hits me in the feels.

 

As for the WOB requested by @Bernem, well, I can't find one.  I thought it existed.  It seems I was wrong.  about its existence, I am sorry.  Lets watch and see what happens!

[Yata]

42 minutes ago, SLNC said:

@Yata stated on the Discord, that it might have to do with both Shallan and Renarin having access to the Surge Illumination, which would make Unmade Surge-based rather than Order-based. It is an interesting idea at least.

I see this as a plausible explaination to some Radiants' sensibility to The Midnight Mother

[Mulk]

Just now, Agent34 said:

I see the "Taravangian can't be a Radiant because of the first Oath" is coming up again so I'll just leave this here

 

Yes, but the most popular theory is he'll be a Bondsmith.  Are Bondsmiths one who could? I don't know.  Maybe?

This whole argument reflects one of the only real problems I have with the way Brandon has set things up.  Journey before Destination is very difficult to read as anything other than meaning the way you get somewhere and what you do on the way is at least as important as where you are going.   It also fits with the whole Honor theme.  I can read a Machiavellian as being able to do Life before Death and Strength before weakness, and if he'd left it at that I'd be just fine.

[Leyrann]

49 minutes ago, SLNC said:

@Yata stated on the Discord, that it might have to do with both Shallan and Renarin having access to the Surge Illumination, which would make Unmade Surge-based rather than Order-based. It is an interesting idea at least.

Actually missed this post first time around, I really like this theory though. It would also explain why there are nine Unmade, and not 10 - as I've theorized elsewhere (see the second post in the thread linked in my signature), it seems like nine of the Surges can be divided into three groups, three each for Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual. The odd one out is Progression, which would then most likely be the one without an own Unmade.

[lastofus]

damnation I don't have enough upvotes to give :(. Going back... 

Did all of you, including me on the first read, missed Oathbringer's memories? Stormfather claims that the spren itself is dead. BUT he also says that the spren hates Dalinar less because of his oaths, etc? Seriously I'd be pissed if Adolin can't revive his blade in the near future. The blade remembers... .

Secondly, while I really don't like this theory of 9 desolations, 9 abandoned oaths and 9 unmades. (Or any variations of it) It still can be true. Brandon only needed to specify a range. 20? 30? 40? But he only said much less than that. And boy if he would say 9... 

And please don't say that the fight with Re-Shephir was underwhelming. Renarin saw her strength and knew theirs and he was scared. It was fortunate or plot-armor that Shallan was practicing so much and could hold against it/her. Plus we will probably see an upgraded version of her again.

[WhiteLeeopard]

So Shallan did not tell her men the truth about Veil. Probably the best, I was a bit worried Veil could be too easily tracked to Shallan if too many people knew.

Quote

She nodded. “But first… first, go and get Adolin. Tell him to bring soldiers.”

That was surprising. I was sure she would go alone heedless of what was ahead.

Quote

like with old Dilid, one of the ten fools. He ran up a hillside toward the Tranquiline Halls with sand sliding beneath his feet—running for eternity, but never making progress.

Here is the fool of this book. 

Quote

Shallan pried her eyes away from the murals,

Hmm. I wonder, what if the known Urithiru is mainly the "public" face which they use to house all the kingdoms for Desolations? While the real Urithiru they use as home to the KR is hidden below/in secret corridors.

Quote

“She’s here,” Renarin whispered. “One of the Unmade. Re-Shephir… the Midnight Mother.”

Hype!

Quote

The spren tugged and prodded at Shallan’s bond with Pattern, seeking to rip it free and insert herself instead

Confirmation how Voidbinding will be like?

Nice chapters. 

[Starla]

I found our friendly scout Lyn in WOR Chapter 81, when Shallan is looking for the oathgate:

Quote

“The large center plateau is just as the parshman told us,” the scout said, breathless. “It’s only one plateau over, to the east.” Lyn was a solid-looking woman with long black hair and keen eyes. “It’s obviously inhabited, though there doesn’t seem to be anyone there right now.”

 

[Steeldancer]

2 minutes ago, lastofus said:

damnation I don't have enough upvotes to give :(. Going back... 

Did all of you, including me on the first read, missed Oathbringer's memories? Stormfather claims that the spren itself is dead. BUT he also says that the spren hates Dalinar less because of his oaths, etc? Seriously I'd be pissed if Adolin can't revive his blade in the near future. The blade remembers... .

Secondly, while I really don't like this theory of 9 desolations, 9 abandoned oaths and 9 unmades. (Or any variations of it) It still can be true. Brandon only needed to specify a range. 20? 30? 40? But he only said much less than that. And boy if he would say 9... 

And please don't say that the fight with Re-Shephir was underwhelming. Renarin saw her strength and knew theirs and he was scared. It was fortunate or plot-armor that Shallan was practicing so much and could hold against it/her. Plus we will probably see an upgraded version of her again.

I talked about oathbringer very early on. Got lost in the discussion of other stuff. 

[Bernem]

3 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Hmm. I wonder, what if the known Urithiru is mainly the "public" face which they use to house all the kingdoms for Desolations? While the real Urithiru they use as home to the KR is hidden below/in secret corridors.

I had a similar thought. Housing above, sanctuary/temple below. That would also make the important stuff easier to defend. I’m looking forward to seeing how extensive the tunnels are down below, and if there are any living quarters. 

[Islington]

11 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

I see the "Taravangian can't be a Radiant because of the first Oath" is coming up again so I'll just leave this here

 

I'm not saying the ends can't justify the means for a Radiant. Look at Dalinar. He bullies Elokhar and breaks his breastplate at the end of TWoK to get him to stop being a baby. Jasnah sets up a sting to catch rapists. Shallan lies CONSTANTLY to infiltrate the Ghostbloods and to hunt the Unmade. Kaladin bullies Gaz to defend his men. 

I'm saying Taravangian is beyond the pale. He's reprehensible. It's like saying that experimenting on defenseless people without consent is worth it because you get good research. He's killed hundreds, and caused chaos to enforce HIS stability. The diagram even says if Dalinar manages to create stability, the diagramsts should kill him. Because the only rule that matters is Mr T's. 

 

He's not working for A greater good, he's working for HIS greater good. Honestly, he probably wouldn't even want to become a Radiant because he would have to work with a spren and accept that his judgement may be flawed in some areas. At least when the Blackthorn went nuts he was confirming to his own society's ideas of masculinity, even if it was gross and wrong. Mr T is cognizant of his moral bankruptcy and continues while weeping to himself so he can pretend to be a moral man "making a hard choice" instead of a disturbed genius holocausting people so he can accumulate power. 

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

Ok is the issue people have with my idea that they think that I'm saying the Unmade came after the desolations? Because... I never said that. The heralds broke before the desolations ended, or so I think. So first desolation, first unmade. Second desolation, second unmade, 2 heralds broken. Ect. 

What is your theory exactly?

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Nymeros said:

What is your theory exactly?

Go read the unmade= herald analogue thread. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Storms you guys are fast. I'll have to catch up later. For now I have two reactions. 

 

"Sometimes a hypocrite is nothing more than a person who is in the process of changing."

Amazing. 

Pattern hummed. “Stupidity. Very interesting.”

I love Pattern

[Jace21]

So many comments taking information as confirmed when it isnt, don't remember this happening in previous weeks, these 3 chapters seem to have generated a lot 9f theory crafting.

I dont think it has been mentioned in this thread yet but an "ends justify the means" personality such as that displayed by Taravangian does not necessarily run counter to the first ideal. I do not necessarily think he will be a radiant but he could be.