Ataraxian Wist Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 Okay, so I've been reading the free chapters of Oathbringer on Tor, and I got to Dalinar's conversation with the Stormfather about challenging Odium to a duel, and I wondered "what would the stakes have to be for Odium to accept?" I knew that Odium would only accept such a challenge if winning would put him significantly further ahead than he already was, and he was basically winning the war at that point. So what could put him so far ahead that it would be worth it? What could possibly stand in his way that he could remove more effectively by drinking a duel than his other methods? Radiants. They could pose a serious problem to his plans, and fighting then could be really annoying, even for a Shard. What if Odium could ensure that, if he won, all of the Radiants would go away? Say, break their oaths or something... So what if that's already happened before? What if that was the cause for the Day of Recreance? This actually makes sense, if you think about it. We know that one Order didn't break it's oaths, so maybe they had all agreed to break their oaths if their contestant lost, and one order broke that promise instead of those previously made to their Spren, or didn't agree at all. I'm not sure which order this would be, but what do you think? Could this be it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 No Oathbringer spoilers outside of the Oathbringer spoiler board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 If that is the reason, the Stormfather would not point to the Radiants as murderers of his kind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkDesperado Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 (edited) Gonna have to disagree, it's been hinted that the secret to what caused the Recreance could be revealed to break the Radiants again (don't have the exact quote but I believe it's one of the diagram quotes) and I doubt that would be it, and I'm fairly sure the Recreance happened after the Last Desolation which would have been the last time they'd need to use the duel plan so unless the wager had a delay attached to it that seems highly unlikely. Most importantly the point of the duel is to be what ends the war, if Odium won it then the war wouldn't end and if the Knights Radiant were supposed to disband if their champion lost then the Last Desolation would have played out very differently. So for those reasons and more I can't agree with this theory in the slightest. Edited October 27, 2017 by TheDarkDesperado clarity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScavellTane Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 A thought just occurred to me that the conflict between Honor and Odium is not really a one sided affair. Sometimes Honor has won and sometimes Odium has won. I'm led to believe that whenever Odium won the Listeners have integrated humanity into their society and therefore we see human hybirds like the Herdazian. Rocks Horneater origin story may have been one of the times where Honor lost and some of humanity took refuge in the peaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 52 minutes ago, ScavellTane said: A thought just occurred to me that the conflict between Honor and Odium is not really a one sided affair. Sometimes Honor has won and sometimes Odium has won. I'm led to believe that whenever Odium won the Listeners have integrated humanity into their society and therefore we see human hybirds like the Herdazian. Rocks Horneater origin story may have been one of the times where Honor lost and some of humanity took refuge in the peaks. I believe we have a WoB the Horneaters and Herdazians are hybrid born from before the Shards' arrive. Maybe pre-shattering at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ataraxian Wist Posted October 27, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 12 hours ago, Chaos said: No Oathbringer spoilers outside of the Oathbringer spoiler board... Oh, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 If this were true, then why would they need to "Vex odium" and "convince him he can lose" before he agrees? Just offer him the same deal. Also, it's implied that odium will win if he wins the duel and loosing will just cost him time (Think of how WoT ended). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted October 27, 2017 Report Share Posted October 27, 2017 I'm firmly on the side of the Recreance occurred by making the Radiants break the first Ideal. It's the only thing that makes sense that could hit every order at once. How'd it happen? Probably something to do with the Heralds putting death (literally the possible death of all of Roshar) above life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connect Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 I think the recreance planned to close off access to roshar. The heralds told everyone they won when they didnt. So they thought voidbringers were gone. I think breaking oaths allows voidbringers a path in. Thats why the radiants abandoned their spren. Now spren are coming back because they know the heralds lied and everyone is in danger. To male it worse the heralds were supposed to come before and get everyone ready. Taln was late the rest are insane. My biggest question is how does breaking oaths let voidbringers in. I think that was what kalladin was doing in book 2. Think ot has tk do with spren being ideas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 5 hours ago, Connect said: I think the recreance planned to close off access to roshar. I am unsure to follow you. 5 hours ago, Connect said: I think breaking oaths allows voidbringers a path in. Thats why the radiants abandoned their spren. If breaking the Oaths is a Voidbringers' chance to enter. The Recreance is letterally an huge gateway for the Voidbringer not a way to seal it off. But maybe I just misundertood your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 On October 27, 2017 at 7:27 PM, Vortaan said: I'm firmly on the side of the Recreance occurred by making the Radiants break the first Ideal. It's the only thing that makes sense that could hit every order at once. How'd it happen? Probably something to do with the Heralds putting death (literally the possible death of all of Roshar) above life. It's been discussed a lot elsewhere (there was an entire thread on it) but the first ideal can be interpreted differently by each order, the skybreakers and elsecallers would both accept an "ends justify means" philosophy while the wind runners would not. Also, only nine orders abandoned their oaths, it's unknown what the tenth order is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 These epigraphs from the in-world WoR are often considered relevant to the Recreance: Quote Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. —Chapter 38, page 6That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. —Chapter 38, page 6This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine .—Chapter 38, page 20 I copied it from here just to save typing, but may have introduced inaccuracy. This "wicked thing of eminence" doesn't sound like losing a duel with Odium's champion. Since I believe that the above quotes describe the Recreance, I am not inclined to accept the OP's thesis. There have been multiple Recreance threads and resources: here, linked Google doc by dvoraen, here, here and one of the progenitors. If you want to build on previous information and speculation and have time on your hands ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastofus Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) The tenth order that didn't participate in recreance probably is the Skybreakers. Mraize told Shallan that her brother Heralan sought them. Nale had some helpers while trying to capture Lift. They had enough knowledge about how Radiants operate that they removed the infused gems from walls. Plus Edgedancer spoiler: Spoiler We also see some squires or recruits alongside Szeth and Nale. And again as Nale and the team wanted to remove Radiants from emerging. Quote As one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine. So it fits the order. Edited October 31, 2017 by lastofus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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