[OB] Dustbringer Spren

[Samaldin he/him]

I agree with @SLNC Also i think our opinions about Malata/ her spren could be colored by a few things, mainly we first see her with Mr T. who we know is probably the most dangerous and ruthless person on Roshar and her interations were with people who almost instantly found her annoying. My guess would be Pattern also just doesn´t like the Dustbringer spren, just like Syl doesn´t like cryptics.

Also the line about Destroying things to see what´s inside, sure can sound like a sociopath, but the first thing i actually thought of was a child which takes apart its clock, so my thoughts went to "childlike"curiosity" instead of "uninhibited by compassion".

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

My first thoughts were of anatomy class. Anatomy Class: where you take things apart to see how they work. Also chemistry, and even psychology.

I actually think Brandon is using Pattern’s statement to trick us. He’s used this trope a few times, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he was turning it on it’s head. It’s not like he never does this...

He’s also the only writer I’ve seen who got the Heroic (neurological) Psycopath RIGHT. Most authors don’t consider that psychopaths can control their actions and behaviors, and that some do. But he’s also written a straight up sociopath, also done well. So I don’t expect him to play this straight at all...

[Darkness he/him]

I like Curiosityspren, but as I was reading this thread, I wondered if the name 'Releasers' might have some connection to the name of the spren-type, which would explain why they are prickly about it (the spren's natures might be altered over time if enough people's misconceptions about 'dustbringer spren' are proliferated).

So how about it? Something like Releasers... Liberationspren? Freedomspren? From a different paradigm - Clarityspren?

[skaa he/him]

I think it would be cool if Spark's species name is "reductionspren", because not only to Dustbringers reduce objects by breaking down their molecular bonds, but also their spren seem to have a philosophy that things are better understood when they're reduced to their constituent parts, a philosophy called reductionism.

Edited October 27, 2017 by skaa

[Alderant she/her]

So here's the thing. I'm not super well versed in the lore of the surges and history of the KR, but it stands to reason that the Order wasn't a bunch of psychopaths and nutjobs. From WoR:

Quote

And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably "Dustbringers," often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word "Voidbringers." They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, though to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies.

What it sounds to me like, is that the Dustbringers, due to the nature of their power, were stuck with some pretty nasty work. That doesn't mean that they were all monsters, they just had the requisite tools to do a dirty job.

Quote

Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. Even some sections of rock smoldered. The Dustbringers had done their work well.

This indicates that the powers of the Dustbringers was prone to devastating results. This would easily cause unease in the common folk, causing them to spread rumors about the Dustbringers. Rumors would evolve as rumors do, and then what's left? You have an Order of Radiants who are held at odds with the people for doing their job, and that Order would grow to resent that treatment, I think. But we don't have any notes that the Dustbringers turned their abilities on the people--I think that would have been mentioned by now in all the times the Recreance has been brought up.

That out of the way, my thoughts on the spren are this.

I think curiosityspren is a good name for how Pattern described the spren. Here's the full text in question:

Quote

“Well,” Shallan whispered, “she’s annoying.”

“Mmm…” Pattern said. “It will be worse when she starts destroying things.”

“Destroying?”

“Dustbringer,” Pattern said. “Her spren… mmm… they like to break what is around them. They want to know what is inside.”

Now, I love my toddler. But "destroying things" is something that she does without even trying to. Note here that Pattern doesn't explicitly or implicitly state that the spren is bad or even that he dislikes them. In my head, he states this almost factually, the way he does most things. Pattern conveys emotion well. His voice gets small when he is afraid. He vibrates when he's excited. Shallan doesn't notice any reaction from him here, and her response is particularly bland:

Quote

“Pleasant,” Shallan said, as she flipped back through her drawings.

Now, I'm a curious person. I like to know how things work. I like to go into code, see how it's designed, and play with it. Often, I end up breaking whatever it is I'm looking at. Once I took apart my watch because I wanted to see how it worked. I frequently take apart pens, computer mice, and other electronics. Just the other day I took apart a pipe wrench so I could see how its components fit together.

That doesn't mean I'm a serial killer or that I have sociopathic tendencies. Sociopathy is a mental disconnect between actions and consequence. A sociopath doesn't understand why doing something (like murder) is wrong. Psychopathy is often considered an inability to empathize or sympathize with another's plights. Often the two are used interchangeably.

However, it's a common TV trope to have a serial killer who "just wants to know how things work," such as Sylar in Heroes, but for the vast majority of situations where someone "breaks what is around them to see what's inside," well, I'd relate that more to a toddler. Toddlers are curious by nature. They have a zest for learning, and they often break many valuable things because of that zest.

I think toddlerspren would actually be a more applicable name, now that I think on it.

[Head Crabs]

Inquisitive Spren

Inquisispren. 

 

Though since ivory is actually inkspren the dustbringer spren could be something we wouldnt even think of. Maybe keenspren? Power so fine and "keen" that it can sever chemical bonds releasing energy and creating fire? Keenness (dear almighty, i hope i spelled that word correctly) would also probably be an attribute in line with a desire to know what's inside of a thing. 

Edited October 26, 2017 by Head Crabs
Misnamed spren!

[Darkness he/him]

10 minutes ago, Head Crabs said:

Inquisitive Spren

Inquisispren. 

 

Though since glys is actually inkspren the dustbringer spren could be something we wouldnt even think of. Maybe keenspren? Power so fine and "keen" that it can sever chemical bonds releasing energy and creating fire? Keenness (dear almighty, i hope i spelled that word correctly) would also probably be an attribute in line with a desire to know what's inside of a thing. 

I think you're thinking of Ivory, not Glys.

[Head Crabs]

Bah. Yes. Thanks. 

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

On 10/25/2017 at 8:09 AM, Samaldin said:

I agree with @SLNC Also i think our opinions about Malata/ her spren could be colored by a few things, mainly we first see her with Mr T. who we know is probably the most dangerous and ruthless person on Roshar...

Yeah, I think her appearance at the right hand of Taravangian is more sinister than her being a Dustbringer. But she may be perfectly sincere in saying that she just hitched a ride with him for convenience's sake, in which case her constant questioning of everything could well be an asset.

[Leyrann]

Eh. I still don't get what's so inherently evil about Taravangian. He literally asked the Nightwatcher the boon to have the knowledge to save the world, and now he's acting on it. Yes, he's doing horrific stuff, but where for someone like Amaram you can argue about what his goals are, with Taravangian you know that he might be doing stuff wrong (or not, because honestly, how can we judge that with the information we have?), but his goal is to save the world in face of the Desolation.

I mean, I understand if people dislike Taravangian for what he does, but I do not see how that makes Malata untrustworthy. Taravangian is Taravangian, Malata is Malata.

[Samaldin he/him]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Eh. I still don't get what's so inherently evil about Taravangian. He literally asked the Nightwatcher the boon to have the knowledge to save the world, and now he's acting on it.

He asked for the capability to, not the knowledge how. Even on his most brilliant day he´s still failable, the Diagram can be wrong. Right now i think there are two options for how the Diagram turns out 1. it fails absolutly and completly because of factors Taravangian knew absolutly nothing about and couldn´t considere because of that 2. It works but in a way no diagramist thought of (like Mr. T becoming Odiums champion and the duel is on his day of ultimate compassion so he kills himself)

[Starla]

One thing I'm curious about... we know that Releasers have the surge of division, which is related to destruction and decay. Combine this with Pattern's quote about wanting to break thinks to see what's inside. At what level can they break things? Can they break/divide matter at an atomic level to create a nuclear explosion? If so, they are serious weapons of mass destruction, which would certainly cause people to fear them.

That said, from a storytelling perspective this makes them seriously over-powered in relation to the other orders and voidbringers (what we've seen of them so far), so I doubt they have this ability.

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, Starla said:

One thing I'm curious about... we know that Releasers have the surge of division, which is related to destruction and decay. Combine this with Pattern's quote about wanting to break thinks to see what's inside. At what level can they break things? Can they break/divide matter at an atomic level to create a nuclear explosion? If so, they are serious weapons of mass destruction, which would certainly cause people to fear them.

That said, from a storytelling perspective this makes them seriously over-powered in relation to the other orders and voidbringers (what we've seen of them so far), so I doubt they have this ability.

They can only break bonds. Chemical bonds. 

[Starla]

25 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

They can only break bonds. Chemical bonds. 

Ah okay, that's a relief. Was this mentioned in the text? I searched the books and wiki and couldn't find any specific descriptions of their division abilities, aside from the WOK prelude mentioning them burning corpses and rock. 

[Leyrann]

I don't think it's mentioned anywhere in the books, but it is a relatively safe assumption to be made. Chemical bonds are quite standard and you can often manipulate them without even knowing. For example, if you burn something, you already break chemical bonds and form new chemical bonds. In your body, millions upon millions of chemical bonds are broken every second and new ones are formed as often. However, not a single atom is split or fused in your body during your entire lifetime, except for some naturally radioactive elements (yes, there are probably traces of radioactive elements in your body), and humankind as a whole has not split or fused a single atom until less than 100 years ago.

Also, nuclear explosions aren't easy. Even if they could break atoms, they'd still need an element that releases multiple neutrons upon breaking and is of high enough quality to establish a chain reaction. The first problem, that they need an element that releases multiple neutrons upon breaking (or neutron capture) means that they'll need something very heavy, like uranium, as atoms only release multiple neutrons if they actually break, as opposed to releasing a particle. Typically, such heavy elements do not have a long enough half-life time to still exist, assuming that Roshar is as old as Earth* (uranium is the exception), and even if you do have it, you still run into the second problem, and that is that you need to have a high enough quality. With uranium, for example, if you mine uranium ores, then purify it to have 100% pure uranium, you can do whatever the heck you want, but unless you shoot in one neutron for every atom of uranium, nothing interesting is going to happen. This is because there's two kinds of uranium, and in order to actually get a chain reaction, you need to have at least some 10% of the right kind of uranium**, and natural uranium is around 3% (note that these numbers are from memory, so I might be off a bit). The technology required to purify this is quite high-tech, and certainly not available in any pre-industrial revolution society. Also, note that uranium is by far the easiest element to use for nuclear reactions.

*It is probably younger because it orbits a white star, which wouldn't reach 4.5 billion years before becoming a gas giant, but whatever.
**This is what is used in nuclear reactors and is actually not enough for an explosion, just a continued reaction; nuclear weapons are typically in the 20-30% range if I remember correctly.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Leyrann
Apparently ctrl+enter = post (plus some more edits cause I was then in a hurry to complete and made typos)

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

Ah okay, that's a relief. Was this mentioned in the text? I searched the books and wiki and couldn't find any specific descriptions of their division abilities, aside from the WOK prelude mentioning them burning corpses and rock. 

There is a WoB about but it's not really detailed, it says something like "Division works at molecular level or it will be too OP, but another book has a division-like ability to atomic level"

[+Extesian he/him]

Good memory @Yata

Quote

Q: The Division Surge: does it actually split atoms or does it split the bonds of molecules?
A: It splits the bonds of molecules, it does not split atoms.
Q: That would be completely overpowered.
A: I have done an atom splitting magic originally in Dragonsteel. And wooow it was overpowered. So really, this is fiddeling... You'll see what it does when I use it, but we'll not be splitting atoms. There won't be nuclear reactors, nuclear fission, so.

 

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

There is a WoB about but it's not really detailed, it says something like "Division works at molecular level or it will be too OP, but another book has a division-like ability to atomic level"

Wait, he's actually going to do that?

...Well that's gonna be an interesting book to read.

EDIT: Got ninja'd, and it looks like my assumptions were correct.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Leyrann

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

7 hours ago, Leyrann said:

I mean, I understand if people dislike Taravangian for what he does, but I do not see how that makes Malata untrustworthy. Taravangian is Taravangian, Malata is Malata.

Here's my thinking. The Diagram says that he needs to prevent a rival power center from solidifying in Alethkar, and he has repeatedly attempted to murder Dalinar in order to achieve this. So when he shows up at Urithiru saying that he wants nothing more than to help Dalinar, that's simply not credible. Based on the Diagram and his previous actions, what he wants to do is undermine Dalinar and what Dalinar's building in Urithiru, so that it doesn't threaten what he's trying to do himself. And we know that Taravangian is willing to murder a lot of innocent people to get what he wants.

And he brought with him Malata, and presumably he wouldn't bring her if he didn't think that her presence would help him achieve his ends there. So (a) either he conspired with Malata to bring down Dalinar; or (b) he believes that she'll achieve this end by virtue of who she is. So Taravangian must believe that Malata, for one reason or another, is a threat to Dalinar. That's why I would be suspicious of her. But of course, he could be wrong about her, because he's been wrong before.

[CodeMnke she/her]

Just a thought here. I honestly do think Pattern doesn't like her sprens "race" if you will. It did read to me as negative. However consider this. Syl REALLY didn't like Cryptics either, and they are not a "bad" spren. Prejudices are not just a human element ....

[Leyrann]

55 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

Here's my thinking. The Diagram says that he needs to prevent a rival power center from solidifying in Alethkar, and he has repeatedly attempted to murder Dalinar in order to achieve this. So when he shows up at Urithiru saying that he wants nothing more than to help Dalinar, that's simply not credible. Based on the Diagram and his previous actions, what he wants to do is undermine Dalinar and what Dalinar's building in Urithiru, so that it doesn't threaten what he's trying to do himself. And we know that Taravangian is willing to murder a lot of innocent people to get what he wants.

And he brought with him Malata, and presumably he wouldn't bring her if he didn't think that her presence would help him achieve his ends there. So (a) either he conspired with Malata to bring down Dalinar; or (b) he believes that she'll achieve this end by virtue of who she is. So Taravangian must believe that Malata, for one reason or another, is a threat to Dalinar. That's why I would be suspicious of her. But of course, he could be wrong about her, because he's been wrong before.

On the other hand, could it be possible (I have nothing to back this up, ftr) that Taravangian (and/or the Diagram) consider there to be a difference between Dalinar ruling in Urithiru (actually that'd officially be Elhokar, but whatever) and someone ruling in Alekthar? After all, a central ruler in Alekthar would most likely mean that Dalinar is not moving to Urithiru. Maybe the reason that there should not be a stable ruler in Alekthar was that the armies of Alekthar, or at least the Knights Radiant led by Bondsmith Dalinar, should move to Urithiru for one reason or another.

Again, I have nothing to back this up, but well, it could be.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

On the other hand, could it be possible (I have nothing to back this up, ftr) that Taravangian (and/or the Diagram) consider there to be a difference between Dalinar ruling in Urithiru (actually that'd officially be Elhokar, but whatever) and someone ruling in Alekthar? After all, a central ruler in Alekthar would most likely mean that Dalinar is not moving to Urithiru. Maybe the reason that there should not be a stable ruler in Alekthar was that the armies of Alekthar, or at least the Knights Radiant led by Bondsmith Dalinar, should move to Urithiru for one reason or another.

The Diagram also says, "You must become King. Of Everything." Taravangian's unlikely to want Dalinar to be a strong king of anywhere, because Taravangian should be the king of everywhere.

[Leyrann]

It does?

Ah, that sucks. With some luck though, either Dalinar will trust Taravangian enough to tell him about the visions or Taravangian will trust Dalinar enough to let him in on the Diagram. I think that either of that happening (though it is not nessecarily likely) would be enough to have them sit together and think about how to unite Roshar, as it is apparently the goal of them both, given to Dalinar by visions of Honor (which, by the way, Gavilar also had, and Taravangian knows he did) and given to Taravangian on a day he was so extremely smart he managed to predict the future several years away with only minor mistakes.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Ah, that sucks. With some luck though, either Dalinar will trust Taravangian enough to tell him about the visions or Taravangian will trust Dalinar enough to let him in on the Diagram. I think that either of that happening (though it is not nessecarily likely) would be enough to have them sit together and think about how to unite Roshar, as it is apparently the goal of them both, given to Dalinar by visions of Honor (which, by the way, Gavilar also had, and Taravangian knows he did) and given to Taravangian on a day he was so extremely smart he managed to predict the future several years away with only minor mistakes.

I dunno if Sanderson's apparently sunny, optimistic disposition affects the fandom, but there is a strong "can't we all just get along" vibe here sometimes that I don't remember from my days on the ASOIAF boards.

[Leyrann]

19 minutes ago, Harry the Heir said:

I dunno if Sanderson's apparently sunny, optimistic disposition affects the fandom, but there is a strong "can't we all just get along" vibe here sometimes that I don't remember from my days on the ASOIAF boards.

There is honestly something like that about Sanderson, and his books as well. I feel like it is the only reason that I (and probably many others with me) am able to read Mistborn without getting depressed at the setting. I also noticed it in the change in tone in Wheel of Time when Sanderson took over.

But do let it be clear that I'm very much always looking for a best-case scenario, not necessarily the most realistic scenario.