[OB] Shalladin revisited

[Entyti he/him]

Now that Shallan knows that Kaladin is her brother's executioner, how do you think their relationship will play out?

I am of the opinion that this will ultimately be beneficial for her, and will help her grow as a Radiant. Consequently, it will also bring them closer together.

Think about how events played out for Kaladin. Essentially, he was a weapon, directed by forces beyond his control. He was a victim of circumstance, joining the army in response to his brother's conscription, fighting in pointless skirmishes, unknowing of the larger politics that led to his unfortunate confrontation with Helaran. And it is this act of killing him, against all odds, that led to his ultimate enslavement, and his Shash branding.

Once Shallan is made aware of all of these nuances, I predict she will easily forgive him.

Now let's examine Shallan's current perspective, and how she is reacting to the news. Mostly, she appears to be in shock. Her response is to suppress the emotions and push away the thoughts. It is premature (and this may get disproved next Tuesday), but Shallan does have a history of suppressing memories, and there might be a little of this going on here. If I am right, and she compartmentalizes this trauma, it will all come out when she finally confronts Kaladin, and may be the catalyst that helps break the walls on other repressed memories, which could help her attain her next Ideal.

 

 

[Shadowmancer he/him]

I took this though process a step further

[Guest]

Well, I've always thought that confrontation is the way to progress and overcoming hurdles.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

Firstly, I minor digression, from chapter 25:

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A theater was more real. More alive, despite the span of the epochs. She stepped into the center and twirled about, letting Veil’s coat flare around her. “I always imagined being up on one of these. When I was a child, becoming a player seemed the grandest job. To get away from home, travel to new places.” To not have to be myself for at least a brief time each day.

Quote

Shallan choked up. She remembered sitting at the edge of her seat, listening to this story. As a child, when moments like watching the players had been the only bright spots in life.

Too many memories of her father, and of her mother, who had loved telling her stories. She tried to banish those memories, but they wouldn’t go.

I'm quoting this here to show that even as a child Shallan did not have a happy life.

In chapter 36 of WoR, Shallan refers to Helaran as "the best person she'd ever known". You could say that Shallan had little joy in her life that was "given" to her - she generally had to work for it, eg with her drawings. For her, Helaran was one of the very few external joys in her life, even if he was hardly around and seemingly abandoned them.

Part of the reason why I bring this up is that I've seen a few posters (not so much here but elsewhere) saying that Shallan should just get over Helaran's death and it's a matter of fact that soldiers die in battle. I think this is an inhuman way of looking at it. People are sad when someone they care about dies. Kaladin was sad (and other things) when Tien died on the battlefield as well. Obviously the circumstances are different but while it is true that "these things happen in battle" it is completely unreasonable to expect people to go "oh, that's okay then".

For Kaladin, Tien's death had a huge impact on him. When he realised that to Dalinar, Elhokar is his Tien, that had a big impact on Kaladin. What Kaladin has effectively done by killing Helaran is that he killed Shallan's Tien. I don't know if Kaladin will make such a connection but it's possible. If so this whole situation might affect him more than Shallan. Kaladin has a tendency to cast himself as "the victim" and as "the oppressed" but his experience with the parshmen currently and possibly here with Helaran will probably help him realise that sometimes the shoe can be on the other foot.

So where does this leave Shallan? Quoting from chapter 27:

Quote

Shallan gritted her teeth, but found her anger… cool. Not gone. No, she would not forgive this man for killing Helaran. But the uncomfortable truth was that she didn’t know why, or how, her brother had fallen to Amaram. She could almost hear Jasnah whispering to her: Don’t judge without more details.

I would say that Shallan is someone who doesn't enjoy hating others. She doesn't enjoy negative emotions in general, really. For Shallan, Amaram has been someone who it was okay for her to hate though - since he's up to so many other dubious things, including what he did to Kaladin. Even then, as we see from this quote and also previously in WoR, such emotions cool with time and she can also analyse the situation logically. Here, she feels that she can't forgive Amaram but would she say the same for Kaladin? I think this is difficult enough for her that she needs some quiet time to process it - which is probably why she forcibly stops herself from thinking about Helaran and Kaladin for now (It'll be interesting to see her emotions when Kaladin's name comes up in future chapters).

Shallan is reasonably well aware of what happened to Kaladin after this - he was betrayed by Amaram, his squad were killed and he was turned into a slave as a "reward". In other words, he didn't benefit in any way whatsoever, and in fact went through hell. Shallan might well come to realise why Kaladin has such a big chip on his shoulders about lighteyes. I think the logical part of Shallan will be able to deal with all this but the emotional part will need some time. I've suggested this before but I think it's quite possible that longer term Shallan will be more annoyed that Kaladin knowingly withheld the fact that he knew what he had done.

If Brandon is being particularly kind to Kaladin (and Shallan too) then it might just be that Shallan's brothers take a route that leads them through/near Kholinar just when Kaladin is in the area and he's able to save them. This is very speculative of course.

It's also the case that Mraize seems to know some facts about Helaran. Is that going to change things significantly? If so, then how?

[The Invested Beard]

Sorry but I think this...ship has sailed?

 

Thank you I'll be here all night!

[Subvisual Haze]

Thus far Kaladin is the only confidant that Shallan has been honest with about her past.  She tries so hard to "make it work" with Adolin that she's not being emotionally honest with him.  Their relationship is actually a very shallow thing even if both care for the other.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Subvisual Haze

[Harbour he/him]

At least now the only way i see the things may get worse is if Kaladin not knowing about Shallan's knowledges would lie to her about Helaran's death under the pressure of shame. I hope that won't happen since Kaladin is pretty honest guy, but everyone have their moments of sudden weakness.

When it comes to possible outcome someone has already brought the overall possible arc between them in the main Shalladin thread. Shallan learned the truth, Kaladin will learn what she learned and decide to step back, then in this book or the next one under the certain circumstances they will hook together and get over it thus become either of close friends or couple. I guess here everything depends on their perception. Shallan may be fine having the Kaladin's child and knowing he murdered her brother or she may not be fine with it. Sometimes the logic can't help and only the subconscious matters.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Harbour

[Alderant she/her]

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Part of the reason why I bring this up is that I've seen a few posters (not so much here but elsewhere) saying that Shallan should just get over Helaran's death and it's a matter of fact that soldiers die in battle. I think this is an inhuman way of looking at it. People are sad when someone they care about dies. Kaladin was sad (and other things) when Tien died on the battlefield as well. Obviously the circumstances are different but while it is true that "these things happen in battle" it is completely unreasonable to expect people to go "oh, that's okay then".

For once we agree!  I've seen this behavior on both sides, without anyone actually taking into account how those thoughts would get processed. So thank you.

14 hours ago, Entyti said:

Think about how events played out for Kaladin. Essentially, he was a weapon, directed by forces beyond his control. He was a victim of circumstance, joining the army in response to his brother's conscription, fighting in pointless skirmishes, unknowing of the larger politics that led to his unfortunate confrontation with Helaran. And it is this act of killing him, against all odds, that led to his ultimate enslavement, and his Shash branding.

Once Shallan is made aware of all of these nuances, I predict she will easily forgive him.

Now let's examine Shallan's current perspective, and how she is reacting to the news. Mostly, she appears to be in shock. Her response is to suppress the emotions and push away the thoughts. It is premature (and this may get disproved next Tuesday), but Shallan does have a history of suppressing memories, and there might be a little of this going on here. If I am right, and she compartmentalizes this trauma, it will all come out when she finally confronts Kaladin, and may be the catalyst that helps break the walls on other repressed memories, which could help her attain her next Ideal.

Oh you speak like a Kaladin groupie, lol.

I am, first and foremost, a Shallan fan. I am second a Shalladin shipper. So it may seem like I take the devil's advocate view here. I'm not. 

I don't know that Shallan will forgive Kaladin all that easily. Yes, Kaladin has been broken just like Shallan, and the two are able to share a bond that doesn't exist with Adolin.

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“Kaladin’s not going to like this,” Adolin said. “Amaram as a highprince? The two of us spent weeks in jail because of the things that man did.”

“I think Amaram killed my brother.”

Adolin wheeled around to stare at her. “What?”

“Amaram has a Shardblade,” Shallan said. “I saw it previously in the hands of my brother, Helaran. He was older than I am, and left Jah Keved years ago. From what I can gather, he and Amaram fought at some point, and Amaram killed him—taking the Blade.”

Here, Shallan does something she's not really done with Adolin before--she's opening up about something to him. Granted, the whole Amaram/Helaran thing is a pretty surface concern compared to the rest of what is going on. However this is a good first step.

Quote

“Shallan… that Blade. You know where Amaram got that, right?”

“On the battlefield?”

“From Kaladin.” Adolin raised his hand to his head. “The bridgeboy insisted that he’d saved Amaram’s life by killing a Shardbearer. Amaram then killed Kaladin’s squad and took the Shards for himself. That’s basically the entire reason the two hate each other.”

So the big argument has been that Shallan might have pieced it together prior to this, so this is confirmation that she has not.

Quote

Shallan’s throat grew tight. “Oh.”

Tuck it away. Don’t think about it.

Ooh. There's pain. Why is there pain? Shallan doesn't compartmentalize her trauma--she wholesale runs away from it. She doesn't want to think about it. 

Quote

Don’t confront it. Don’t think about it.

Again, this isn't compartmentalizing just for the sake of dealing with it later. She does not want to confront this possibility.

Quote

 this was something she could still tuck away in the back of her brain. She did not want to think about Kaladin and Helaran.…

Her Truths are not letting her hide from her trauma. They are forcing her to be aware of them. This therefore, is one thing that Shallan can shove aside and not think of. She doesn't want to be confronted by this. She doesn't want to think about this. THREE TIMES she has to tell herself not to think about this.

So the question is, why?

Shallan and Kaladin's chasm scene was deeply intimate. They both (figuratively) laid themselves bare for the other to see, and through their experience a bond was formed. Kal fell hard for Shallan, but knowing how suited Adolin and she appeared to be, and with his budding friendship with the prince, Kaladin shoved down his feelings and buried them to step aside. Shallan, on the other hand, has never truly been in a meaningful relationship. She's not aware of the depth of her own feelings, so she is shocked when this revelation hurts. Kaladin isn't just someone she likes, she subconsciously cares for him on a deeper level, so knowing that he was involved in Helaran's death hurts. 

Yes, Kaladin was a victim of circumstance, but regardless he killed her older brother, whom she idolized. That's not going to be easy to come to terms with and I don't think it will come until after Kaladin returns to Urithiru. My prediction is that with everything going on, when Kaladin returns she is going to avoid him. Forced to deal with so many things she doesn't want to deal with, she's going to choose to avoid dealing with her feelings regarding this him and Helaran, and Kaladin will have to confront her about it. It will be emotional. It may or may not start their relationship officially. But the point remains that she does. not. want. to. think. about. the. fact. that. Kaladin. killed. her. brother.

Also as a note here...

It's all too common to say "Kaladin murdered Helaran." He didn't. He killed Helaran, but it was in self-defense, defense of his men, and defense of his brightlord. That counts, in the moral scheme of things.

[Entyti he/him]

Quote

I've suggested this before but I think it's quite possible that longer term Shallan will be more annoyed that Kaladin knowingly withheld the fact that he knew what he had done.

I disagree with this conclusion, and here's why. Shallan builds herself on lies. Lies she lives through her alternate personas, lies she tells others, lies she tells herself. This is a key part of her strength, as it is this capacity to be elastic that allows her to be convincing in her personas. Her adventures as Veil as well as her new Radiant persona highlight this, as she is able to perform tasks that "normal Shallan" are not able to do. However, it is also her folly. Her whole story arc is centered around balancing truth and lies. Her progression as a Radiant thus far has been around being truthful to herself (and her spren). Once this is done, it appears that that it can't be reversed.

Here's an example of this in Oathbringer:

Quote

Well, except for that whole part about having to admit to herself that she’d killed her mother. As soon as she thought of it, she instinctively tried to shove the memory away, but it wouldn’t budge.(emphasis mine) She’d spoken it to Pattern as a truth—which were the odd Ideals of the Lightweavers.

In the above example, we see her try to banish the uncomfortable truth, and it will not go away. Now contrast that with her reaction to the news that Kaladin killed Helaran (thanks Alderant for the quotes)

Quote

Shallan’s throat grew tight. “Oh.”

Tuck it away. Don’t think about it.

...

Don’t confront it. Don’t think about it.

...

 this was something she could still tuck away in the back of her brain. She did not want to think about Kaladin and Helaran.…

So there is something important about facing these hard truths. She needs this to ground her in herself so she can truly become Radiant, and not just her fictional "Radiant." Pattern touches on this:

Quote

After a short time walking, Shallan found she needed to say something more. “Pattern. Do you remember what you said to me the other night, the first time… we became Radiant?”

“About dying?” Pattern asked. “It may be the only way, Shallan. Mmm… You must speak truths to progress, but you will hate me for making it happen.

All of this to say that she may not be happy that Kaladin was the one who killed Helaran. And it may be is almost certain that she is/will be upset that he didn't share this with her. However, if anyone can come to understand the need to hide from the truth, it is Shallan. Frankly, it would be disingenuous for her not to, considering she lied to herself about killing her own parents, and in fact lies to herself still. This is best shown in this exchange below with Pattern:

Quote

Shallan stopped in place, suddenly frantic. “My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right?”

“What?” he said.

“I talked to Balat over spanreed,” Shallan said, hand to her forehead. “But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories…”

“Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live. Your brothers live. Mraize said he rescued them. They are on their way here. This isn’t the lie.” His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?”

When the inevitable confrontation happens, it is my prediction that it will lay the foundation for her to confront whatever it is that she is hiding from now that will help her reach her next Ideal.

 

[Alderant she/her]

35 minutes ago, Entyti said:

All of this to say that she may not be happy that Kaladin was the one who killed Helaran. And it may be is almost certain that she is/will be upset that he didn't share this with her. However, if anyone can come to understand the need to hide from the truth, it is Shallan. Frankly, it would be disingenuous for her not to, considering she lied to herself about killing her own parents, and in fact lies to herself still.

I see the conversation being one of great emotions for Shallan. Kaladin might try to dissemble, though I can't imagine he would if she were to ask him about it directly. He'd have no reason to hide it from her--he's not trying to win her hand or anything, so if she asked I hope he would just tell her. She knows the circumstances around it, she could deduce that Kaladin wasn't to blame for what happened.

That said, people rarely judge themselves and others to the same standard. That's why the phrase, "you can't judge a person by their actions and then yourself by your intentions" exists. I don't see this being something Shallan just dismisses--I imagine she's going to hurt and cry, and Kal's not going to know what to do to help her.

I will admit though that for Shallan's sake I'm less concerned about hers/Kaladin's relationship than I am about hers/Adolin's.

[Rasha]

Do we even know that Kalladin know he killed Shallan's brother ? He knows he killed a Shardbearer with the Shardblade Amaram now possess. He knows she Shardbearer has red hair and is probably Veden, but I don't think we see him connect the dots on screen. There is many red-haired Veden running around, and Kaladin has probably not spared some thoughts on the identity of the Shardbearer, viewing only as a bearer of abominations that killed his men. Oh, sure, we as the audience are privy to these details, and Adolin, being a smart guy and being told by Shallan that her brother used to possess the blade connected all the dots. But Kaladin had neither the inclination nor all the necessary info to do so. So if it comes up, it will be Shallan that will initiate it.

[Wreith he/him]

2 minutes ago, Rasha said:

Do we even know that Kalladin know he killed Shallan's brother ? He knows he killed a Shardbearer with the Shardblade Amaram now possess. He knows she Shardbearer has red hair and is probably Veden, but I don't think we see him connect the dots on screen. There is many red-haired Veden running around, and Kaladin has probably not spared some thoughts on the identity of the Shardbearer, viewing only as a bearer of abominations that killed his men. Oh, sure, we as the audience are privy to these details, and Adolin, being a smart guy and being told by Shallan that her brother used to possess the blade connected all the dots. But Kaladin had neither the inclination nor all the necessary info to do so. So if it comes up, it will be Shallan that will initiate it.

We do know. When they were trapped in the chasms exchanging stories during the Highstorm in WoR it comes up. Kaladin realizes that he was the one that killed her brother.

obligatory: Assuming it was really her brother

Which I believe to be a pretty safe assumption given the number of people who believe him dead and their knowledge levels

[Entyti he/him]

47 minutes ago, Alderant said:

I will admit though that for Shallan's sake I'm less concerned about hers/Kaladin's relationship than I am about hers/Adolin's.

What do you mean by this?

[Guest]

The way I see it happening is:

1. Kaladin returns to Urithiru

2. Shallan completely distances herself from him or acts weirdly around him due to repressed memories

3. Either way, his crem dung detector goes to eleven

4. He confronts her

5. After a bit of back and forth, she tells him that she knows, that he killed Helaran

6. Kaladin apologizes and explains, but doesn't know what else he can do.

What happens afterwards? I don't know. Maybe Shallan will notice, that he is genuine. Maybe she won't.

In the end though, I do think, that she will notice his genuineness.

Like @Alderant already said: They seem to connect on a different level...

[Alderant she/her]

3 minutes ago, Entyti said:

What do you mean by this?

Umm...Ive talked about this at length elsewhere (ask @SLNC, hes seen all of them I think), but the short of it is that I think theyre doomed. Shallan and Adolin just dont trust each other in the most meaningful way—both are inclined to close up and tell no one about anything going on in their lives.

The exception for Shallan is Kaladin. Shes told him more of herself than she has told anyone, and she is at her most genuine around him. Shes not all that genuine around Adolin, and I think when things come to a head their relationship is going to fall apart because they dont have a binding glue to their relationship.

[Starla]

Regarding Kaladin not telling Shallan the truth, I don’t think he’s had much of a chance so far. When Shallan told him that Amaram had her brother’s shardblade, and Kaladin realized the truth of what he had done, they were in a life or death situation in a tiny hole in the wall during a highstorm. It was possible they wouldn't live through the night. Shallan was shivering, afraid, and telling her life story to distract herself from a bad situation. I don’t think this was the best time for Kaladin to say “Oh by the way, I killed your brother.” I think telling her in that moment, when she is relying on him for comfort, would be a bit insensitive.

After the storm they hobbled back to the war camp as quickly as possible, and she left with Dalinar and the army later in the same day. His leg was broken and he couldn’t move around much. The next time he saw her was in Urithiru. There was a five day period between the time they arrived through the oathgate and the time they met with Dalinar at the top of the tower, then Kal left for Hearthstone. We don’t know what happened in those five days. Perhaps he could have pulled her aside and told her. However, we know that on her first night in Urithiru, Shallan confronted the truth about her mother’s death. At the start of Oathbringer, she is still trying to process that truth. Throughout the book so far, she seems to be alone a lot, not interacting with the people around her. I doubt she was hanging out with Kaladin much in those first few days, and he was probably getting his 1000 men settled in Urithiru and he didn’t take the time to seek her out and tell her.

My guess is that when he returns to Urithiru neither of them will bring it up while they're around others, but if they get a moment alone, she’ll eventually ask him about it. He may even bring it up himself if senses she’s acting weird (the scenario presented by @SLNC above). Either way, I think he’ll tell her the truth.  I imagine he feels terrible about it and is afraid the truth will hurt her and she’ll hate him for it, but I don’t think he’ll lie if she asks him outright. I think he’ll apologize and expect her to never want to speak to him again. It’s how he’d feel if he met the man who killed Tien on the battlefield.

For Shallan’s side, I don’t think she’ll react that way. I think she’ll eventually forgive him if she hears the whole story. My larger concern for Shallan is that she’ll learn that Helaran was not the man she thought he was. She’ll learn he was an assassin and part of some questionable organization (probably from Mraize), and that he carelessly slaughtered men on the field who were not attacking him. This will shatter her illusion of him as her knight in shining armor. He was absent for a lot of her childhood so she has been able to separate him from all the bad things that happened to her, and put him on a pedestal. But if she finds out he abandoned their family to participate in some morally ambiguous activities, it might be the last straw for her and she’ll break down about it. I think the main conflict here is between her and Helaran, more than her and Kaladin, but the Kaladin truth coming out might trigger the full realization for her.  I think she’s strong enough to get through the meltdown, and hopefully she can begin to face difficulties in a healthier way going forward.

[Entyti he/him]

29 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The way I see it happening is:

1. Kaladin returns to Urithiru

2. Shallan completely distances herself from him or acts weirdly around him due to repressed memories

3. Either way, his crem dung detector goes to eleven

4. He confronts her

5. After a bit of back and forth, she tells him that she knows, that he killed Helaran

6. Kaladin apologizes and explains, but doesn't know what else he can do.

What happens afterwards? I don't know. Maybe Shallan will notice, that he is genuine. Maybe she won't.

In the end though, I do think, that she will notice his genuineness.

Like @Alderant already said: They seem to connect on a different level...

hmmm... I tend to agree with this. I would guess that she will treat Kaladin the way she treats Pattern-Blade. She'll have some created persona to deal with Kaladin, which will be off, and Kaladin will notice this and force a confrontation.

Another thing to consider is that whatever is going on with Shallan will likely progress, and not in a good way. I am referring to her issues with facing her truths that Pattern has pointed out as well as the missing time when she made those drawings she can't remember (if it was her, which I believe it was). This could play out in any number of ways, of course, and knowing Sanderson, it will be hard to predict how. But I think most would agree that it won't be good.

Either way, if Kaladin's reunion with Shallan is delayed until later in the book, this should be a factor to consider as well.

[Harbour he/him]

I kinda doubt Sanderson wants Shallan to progress in the bad way. Ultimately he doesnt let his MC to do this. I think he has a "two books long" arcs planned for each of his main characters.

Kaladin's main problems were solved during the TWoK and WoR. By the time of OB, we got his better and (for me) much more likable version. It doesnt mean there is no room left for him to progress further, but in OB he already started to deal with the secondary issues.

The same with Dalinar. In TWoK and WoR we saw him successfully transforming into Dalinar Bondsmith from Dalinar BondBreaker. He still has job to do but ultimately he became much better person. OB left him to deal with his past, while his present self is more or less safe. 

The same will happen with Shallan, i believe. She didn't get much development during TWoK, but got a lot in WoR. She has a second book where the changes will happen.

OB for her, i believe, is what the WoR was for Kaladin. I guess by the time of SA4 Shallan will deal with her mind problems. I highly doubt Sanderson wants to prolong her sanity-insanity arc for the next two books. It would be kinda boring and repetitive. Sanderson would most likely let her deal with secondary issues in SA4/5 and focus on Szeth and Jasnah main issues.

Edited October 26, 2017 by Harbour

[Ramza1890]

I believe that this might lead to Shallan creating another persona to interact with Kaladin, similar to Radiant insofar as it looks and sounds just like Shallan but performs a specific function for Shallan that she herself might not be able to handle.

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, Ramza1890 said:

I believe that this might lead to Shallan creating another persona to interact with Kaladin, similar to Radiant insofar as it looks and sounds just like Shallan but performs a specific function for Shallan that she herself might not be able to handle.

I worry about this. I REALLY worry about this. As I've said before, Shallan's personas allow her to act without the same inhibitions as she has as "Shallan, the bright-eyed lady," so the danger is very real that if she chooses to shove the situation with Kaladin into a corner and create a persona to deal with him, she will eventually do something she'll regret.

Again, Radiant is still Shallan. People need to stop treating her personas as separate identities. They are all still her, they still have her memories and knowledge. They are just different versions of her that allow her to do something different--not separate people.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Ok as a hardcore shadolin shipper this entire topic has a massive feeling of wrongness about it for me. I definitely think that eventually Shallan will deal with her issues surrounding memory repression and things but the way I see it happening is by coming clean with and talking it out with adolin. I feel that she is so worried about whether she can trust herself that she'll at first try and distance herself from him but then he realises that something's wrong they have a confrontation and she like angrily tells him everything. Then she realises that she feels really liberated by the fact that she can just tell the truth and she's found someone who won't judge her (because adolin is not a judgemental person by any definition). From that point on she starts using him as a sort of anchor; she can make up any number of things but at the end of the day he is the certain solid baseline that she can come home to. Her eventual confrontation with Kaladin  would probably then have her using him for support. Adolin is definitely the warmest, most easygoing presence in sa and I feel like that's definitely what she needs right now.

[Alderant she/her]

Hahaha.... @MadhavDeval Don't get me started. You're in a thread called "Shalladin revisted". It stands to reason that most people here are coming from the Shalladin perspective and you're just bringing the shipping war unnecessarily.

Everyone here loves Adolin. Most of us just think Kaladin is better for her. But this thread is not for Shadolin.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

Fair enough @Alderant. To quote Thomas sanders new video "I wasn't thinking straight-I never think straight, I'm not straight". I've gotta say though, I just want Shallan happy and that's something we can all agree on because the way she's going right now.... 

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, MadhavDeval said:

Fair enough @Alderant. To quote Thomas sanders new video "I wasn't thinking straight-I never think straight, I'm not straight". I've gotta say though, I just want Shallan happy and that's something we can all agree on because the way she's going right now.... 

Absolutely. See below:

21 hours ago, Alderant said:

I am, first and foremost, a Shallan fan. I am second a Shalladin shipper.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

3 hours ago, Alderant said:

I worry about this. I REALLY worry about this. As I've said before, Shallan's personas allow her to act without the same inhibitions as she has as "Shallan, the bright-eyed lady," so the danger is very real that if she chooses to shove the situation with Kaladin into a corner and create a persona to deal with him, she will eventually do something she'll regret.

Again, Radiant is still Shallan. People need to stop treating her personas as separate identities. They are all still her, they still have her memories and knowledge. They are just different versions of her that allow her to do something different--not separate people.

Well, Shallan herself has done things that she regrets as herself. She doesn't need a persona for that! Though perhaps it could be argued that her "coldness of clarity" mode is a sort-of persona...? Since she was like that for both her mother's death and her father's. A sort-of "null" persona. Maybe it'll be turned into a persona called "Clarity" at a later stage so that she can call upon it when necessary.

It's probably worth remembering just why she created Radiant - it's too traumatic for her to think about her mother and wield the sword that killed her at the same time. She can do one or the other but not both. I presume you're not suggesting that Shallan finding out that Kaladin killed Helaran is that traumatic for her? If it was then Kaladin will be toast...

I doubt Shallan is going to create personas for every problem. Veil and Radiant can both handle multiple problems. While Shallan put aside thinking about Kaladin and Helaran that doesn't mean she cannot think about it without a persona. Just because she doesn't want to think about it right now that doesn't mean she needs a persona to hide from it. It's worth remembering that Shallan is generally herself the vast majority of the time (despite the pain) and the personas are for special occasions.