[OB] Shalladin revisited

[Alderant she/her]

12 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Well, Shallan herself has done things that she regrets as herself. She doesn't need a persona for that! Though perhaps it could be argued that her "coldness of clarity" mode is a sort-of persona...? Since she was like that for both her mother's death and her father's. A sort-of "null" persona. Maybe it'll be turned into a persona called "Clarity" at a later stage so that she can call upon it when necessary.

It's probably worth remembering just why she created Radiant - it's too traumatic for her to think about her mother and wield the sword that killed her at the same time. She can do one or the other but not both. I presume you're not suggesting that Shallan finding out that Kaladin killed Helaran is that traumatic for her? If it was then Kaladin will be toast...

Let me clarify.

I think you might be on to something with the "null" persona, but I also think that might be more of a personal quirk than a persona. When I get into dangerous situations time seems to slow for me and I get very calm as well, but maybe there's some residual magic going on as well. As far as doing things she regrets, you're absolutely right! I don't think she needs a persona for that.

I don't think Kaladin killing Helaran is exactly traumatic, per se. Not with all the information at hand. But I do worry that as she comes to realize the depth of her feelings for Kaladin, she will use a persona (a vaguely altered persona like Radiant) to deal with that situation, just because she doesn't want to deal with it. Especially if this happens to coincide with a certain revelation pending from a certain high-prince...

More likely, what will happen is that she'll just shove her feelings on the matter into a little box and try to ignore Kaladin...like she's doing...right now.

19 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It's worth remembering that Shallan is generally herself the vast majority of the time (despite the pain) and the personas are for special occasions

You know, I seem to recall making this point myself...

19 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I doubt Shallan is going to create personas for every problem. Veil and Radiant can both handle multiple problems. While Shallan put aside thinking about Kaladin and Helaran that doesn't mean she cannot think about it without a persona. Just because she doesn't want to think about it right now that doesn't mean she needs a persona to hide from it.

Oh, I think you're absolutely right. I doubt she will do it for every situation. If she does anything, I think Radiant will be the persona she adopts around Kaladin, kind of like "Shallan, the bright-eyed lady" is the persona she adopts with Adolin, which is a little different from the Shallan we see by herself or with Kaladin.

"Radiant's a soldier. Radiant's got a soldier's head. Plus, Radiant won't be as bothered by the trials of war as Shallan." I'm worried that Shallan, refusing to address the problem because she doesn't have to, will begin thinking along these lines, and if, as Radiant, she begins to realize the depths of her emotions regarding Kaladin (which Shallan has only the inkling of right now), that could make things very...messy.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Alderant said:

Oh, I think you're absolutely right. I doubt she will do it for every situation. If she does anything, I think Radiant will be the persona she adopts around Kaladin, kind of like "Shallan, the bright-eyed lady" is the persona she adopts with Adolin, which is a little different from the Shallan we see by herself or with Kaladin.

"Radiant's a soldier. Radiant's got a soldier's head. Plus, Radiant won't be as bothered by the trials of war as Shallan." I'm worried that Shallan, refusing to address the problem because she doesn't have to, will begin thinking along these lines, and if, as Radiant, she begins to realize the depths of her emotions regarding Kaladin (which Shallan has only the inkling of right now), that could make things very...messy.

Interesting. Though I don't know how Kaladin would react to that, he's a pretty observant person. I can always just refer back to the carriage ride in WoR where he was escorting Adolin and Shallan and immediately caught, when Shallan was hiding her emotions.

Quote

“There’s a menagerie,” Shallan said, eager. “In the Outer Market.”
“A menagerie,” Adolin said. “Isn’t that a little . . . low?”
“Oh, come on. We could look at all of the animals, and you could tell me which ones you’ve bravely slaughtered while hunting. It’ll be very diverting.” She hesitated, and Kaladin thought he saw something in her eyes. A flash of something deeper. Pain? Worry? “And I could use some distraction,” Shallan added more softly.

(in the chapter before, she saw her burned out carriage, the coachman with a slit throat and all the dead parshmen, for context)

I think he'd probably notice such a change in Shallan's behavior.

Edited October 26, 2017 by SLNC

[Alderant she/her]

Just now, SLNC said:

Interesting. Though I don't know how Kaladin would react to that, he's a pretty observant person. I can always just refer back to the carriage ride in WoR where he was escorting Adolin and Shallan and immediately caught, when Shallan was hiding her emotions.

...

I think he'd probably notice such a change in Shallan's behavior.

I certainly hope so! I forgot about that carriage ride sequence. Good point, have a cookie.

Spoiler

Kaladin is an observant person, absolutely. He might notice it. But he might not say anything. That's my worry--on the Shallan end. I worry she's going to try to do it.

This is the thing I don't get about the whole Shallan/Adolin vs. Shallan/Kaladin thing. Almost immediately, Kaladin notices things about Shallan on a deeper level than Adolin. He's going to pick up that things are off for her, but is he going to have time to confront her about it? He's got responsibilities, men to take care of an Emperor (High-King?) to defend, and a lordling-turning-high prince to deal with. I believe that Kaladin is better equipped to help Shallan with what's going on, but will she let him? That's the question.

[Harbour he/him]

Kaladin is the only person besides probably Jasnah that doesnt buy Shallan's bs and tell her about this. At least that feeling i got from every thought and word he had watching Shallan and Adolin and later her alone. And im pretty sure Shallan got it so she didnt try to bs him, at least in private. I cant wait to see what Brandon has for their next meeting.

[Alderant she/her]

4 hours ago, Harbour said:

Kaladin is the only person besides probably Jasnah that doesnt buy Shallan's bs and tell her about this. At least that feeling i got from every thought and word he had watching Shallan and Adolin and later her alone. And im pretty sure Shallan got it so she didnt try to bs him, at least in private. I cant wait to see what Brandon has for their next meeting.

I concur! Have a cookie. 

Spoiler

 

[DSC01 he/him]

23 hours ago, Harbour said:

I kinda doubt Sanderson wants Shallan to progress in the bad way. Ultimately he doesnt let his MC to do this. I think he has a "two books long" arcs planned for each of his main characters.

Kaladin's main problems were solved during the TWoK and WoR. By the time of OB, we got his better and (for me) much more likable version. It doesnt mean there is no room left for him to progress further, but in OB he already started to deal with the secondary issues.

The same with Dalinar. In TWoK and WoR we saw him successfully transforming into Dalinar Bondsmith from Dalinar BondBreaker. He still has job to do but ultimately he became much better person. OB left him to deal with his past, while his present self is more or less safe. 

The same will happen with Shallan, i believe. She didn't get much development during TWoK, but got a lot in WoR. She has a second book where the changes will happen.

OB for her, i believe, is what the WoR was for Kaladin. I guess by the time of SA4 Shallan will deal with her mind problems. I highly doubt Sanderson wants to prolong her sanity-insanity arc for the next two books. It would be kinda boring and repetitive. Sanderson would most likely let her deal with secondary issues in SA4/5 and focus on Szeth and Jasnah main issues.

This is exactly something that I have been noticing. Stormlight's structure is very tight. The volumes follow patterns--not in a formulaic way, but rather, I think, to keep a huge story from going off the rails and meandering off (the way so many long fantasy series are accused of doing).

Shallan's OB plotline obviously echoes Kaladin's WoR plotline, so for everyone who's clutching their pearls over how concerned you are for Shallan's wellbeing, better buckle up, 'cause this book's gonna be a rough ride for you all the way through (though this does pretty much guarantee Shallan being ridiculously awesome during the Sanderlanche).

As for the topic at hand, there is so much up in the air right now that it's impossible to say for sure how this development affects a potential romance. I was somewhat surprised that it came out so soon, but I this isn't the first time we've caught Brandon subverting the "no one tell anyone else anything, ever," trope. 

I do have to say, though, that you're not being reasonable if you downplay the fact that Kaladin killed Shallan's beloved, idolized brother is a major, major hurdle to a relationship. Even if Shallan doesn't blame him and intellectually understands the mitigating factors, it will be a problem. The emotions will be hard to handle, and if Shallan is even a little unhealthy in this hypothetical romance (nah, not Shallan, surely!), she is probably going to eventually try to win an argument with, "Yeah? Well, you stabbed my brother in the eye and killed him to defend a Sadeas man who murdered the men you were responsible to protect, then sold you into slavery, all for his own glory."

I'm not saying the relationship can't happen--and maybe the Shallan we get at the end of Oathbringer will be in a healthy enough place to give it a go--but Kaladin killed Shallan's brother! Be reasonable about how serious that is. 

[Alderant she/her]

58 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I'm not saying the relationship can't happen--and maybe the Shallan we get at the end of Oathbringer will be in a healthy enough place to give it a go--but Kaladin killed Shallan's brother! Be reasonable about how serious that is.

I agree—this is a very important event that we can’t overlook. I also don’t think it’s significant enough, compared with the myriad of deeper tragedies in Shallan’s life to be a deal-breaker. I’m not saying it will be easy for her to work through—at this point in time I don’t even know if she will try to—but I think there’s enough comraderie between them at least (though I think there’s more than that) to allow the relationship to pull through if she works through it.

It is important to note that, while Shallan may idolize Helaran to an extent in the same way younger siblings often do, she was more distant to Helaran than her other brothers, and seeing as she fully knows what Kaladin was forced to go through at the same time, I think that will carry some weight...if she ever allows herself to sit and think on it. 

1 hour ago, DSC01 said:

so for everyone who's clutching their pearls over how concerned you are for Shallan's wellbeing, better buckle up, 'cause this book's gonna be a rough ride for you all the way through (though this does pretty much guarantee Shallan being ridiculously awesome during the Sanderlanche).

I know.... T_T