[OB] Amaram has a date

[Tarion]

Specifically, he has a duel with Adolin Kholin coming up in the not-too distant future. I don't see it going well for him. 

In Words of Radiance, we find out a lot about duelling. A formal challenge to a duel is a contract between houses.

Steady, Adolin told himself. Relis was trying to goad him, maybe get Adolin to take a hasty swing. That would let him petition to the king for redress and a voiding of all contracts with his house—including the dueling agreement with Elit.

And memorably, Sadeas is corned into a duel with Adolin, but is quick enough to put it off.

As soon as he was free of the arena, Sadeas sent word agreeing to duel Adolin—in one year’s time.

In the most recent OB chapters, Amaram becomes de facto Sadeas, and so will presumably be required to honour Sadeas' debts. Unfortunately, if this pays off*, I'd expect it to be after Oathbringer or very late in the book - We're at the beginning of the year, and the duel is schedules for ~20 days before the next Lightday. Still, it's something to look forward to

*I don't actually expect it to happen, but it's a fun quirk of Rosharan law, if nothing else 

[The Invested Beard]

I was thinking this would be about Amaram making a pass at Ialai. It seems within his despicable character to hit on a grieving widow.

[bo.montier]

12 minutes ago, Tarion said:

Specifically, he has a duel with Adolin Kholin coming up in the not-too distant future. I don't see it going well for him. 

In Words of Radiance, we find out a lot about duelling. A formal challenge to a duel is a contract between houses.

 

And memorably, Sadeas is corned into a duel with Adolin, but is quick enough to put it off.

 

In the most recent OB chapters, Amaram becomes de facto Sadeas, and so will presumably be required to honour Sadeas' debts. Unfortunately, if this pays off*, I'd expect it to be after Oathbringer or very late in the book - We're at the beginning of the year, and the duel is schedules for ~20 days before the next Lightday. Still, it's something to look forward to

*I don't actually expect it to happen, but it's a fun quirk of Rosharan law, if nothing else 

I would like it if that happened. I think the problem will be that Dalinar seems to have accepted the need, however distasteful, to work with Amaram. Maybe it's just he's trying to be diplomatic in how he deals with Elhokar, but Adolin, as the new Highprince could....
I don't know, it is just too convoluted, but it would be nice.

[Calderis he/him]

This assumes that the duel was a binding contract for the Highprince of House Sadeas. 

I personally think that a duel would be binding between two individuals. I'm fairly sure that the duel died with Torol Sadeas. 

[kmosiman]

If Kaladin had been granted a boon he could have fought him, but he was thrown in jail instead. 

Now if there was a NEED to pursue his removal; I'm sure Elhokar could be persuaded to make the challenge agreement pass on to the next Highprince.

It may also be possible that the law passes the responsibility of the duel on to a Second, but Amaram would probably have to have been named as Second; which is doubtful since they had a year to work out the details.

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

Considering the craziness of alethi law and custom this wouldn't surprise me at all. 

I'm kind of ambibalent about Dalinar, but I doubt he has accepted the need to work with Amaram. He was just cornered and he knew it. 

[CaptainRyan he/him]

2 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

I was thinking this would be about Amaram making a pass at Ialai. It seems within his despicable character to hit on a grieving widow.

I'm trying to figure out how to word this without it seeming like I am trying to defend Amaram.

What makes you say that hitting on a grieving widow is within Amaram's character? He did a horrible thing in killing Kaladin's squadmates and taking the Shards for himself but, from Amaram's point of view, it was an unfortunately necessary evil in order to advance his plans of bringing back the Heralds. That certainly does not excuse his actions but it does provide context. Hitting on Ialai would not advance the cause of bringing back the Heralds so I'm not sure he would do that; not to mention it is entirely possible that Ialai is 10-20 (or more) years his senior. I guess it is possible that he thinks wedding Ialai would give him more resources to pursue the agenda of the Sons of Honor but as he is already the regent of the Sadeas Princedom that does not seem to be necessary.

[The Invested Beard]

15 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I'm trying to figure out how to word this without it seeming like I am trying to defend Amaram.

What makes you say that hitting on a grieving widow is within Amaram's character? He did a horrible thing in killing Kaladin's squadmates and taking the Shards for himself but, from Amaram's point of view, it was an unfortunately necessary evil in order to advance his plans of bringing back the Heralds. That certainly does not excuse his actions but it does provide context. Hitting on Ialai would not advance the cause of bringing back the Heralds so I'm not sure he would do that; not to mention it is entirely possible that Ialai is 10-20 (or more) years his senior. I guess it is possible that he thinks wedding Ialai would give him more resources to pursue the agenda of the Sons of Honor but as he is already the regent of the Sadeas Princedom that does not seem to be necessary.

I was thinking more along the lines of if his only way to power within the Sadeas princedom and thus furthering the agenda was marrying Ialai he'd try it.

[IllNsickly he/him]

3 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

I was thinking this would be about Amaram making a pass at Ialai. It seems within his despicable character to hit on a grieving widow.

While I do not sympathize with or condone Amaram, I really don't consider him Despicable.

he is doing what he thinks is right. Ialai has given him a position of power and influence, I don't see him taking advantage of that position for the sake of Romantic Interactions.

Feels completely out of character for him.

[Tarion]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

This assumes that the duel was a binding contract for the Highprince of House Sadeas. 

I personally think that a duel would be binding between two individuals. I'm fairly sure that the duel died with Torol Sadeas. 

I disagree, because the boon was specifically to duel "Highprince Sadeas". It did not specify Torol. In this chapter, we're told that Amaram is for all intents "Highprince Sadeas". I think there's a strong argument to be made that the duel is still valid. 

8 hours ago, IllNsickly said:

While I do not sympathize with or condone Amaram, I really don't consider him Despicable.

he is doing what he thinks is right. Ialai has given him a position of power and influence, I don't see him taking advantage of that position for the sake of Romantic Interactions.

Feels completely out of character for him.

I think it would be the opposite - I can totally see him "suffering" through a romantic interaction in order to "do what is best for Alethkar". He sees himself being in power as being best for Alethkar, and therefore he'll do something as distasteful as hitting on a widow in order to save the world. 
That said, I doubt he would, but only because the patrilineal succession wouldn't let him become Highprince - The title passes to a nephew, rather than Ialai herself. 

[Guest Edonidd]

I just don't see why so many people consider Amaram despicable.  Maybe I have to reread WoK, but I was under the impression that he was actually going to let Kaladin have the shards.  Kaladin the great warrior who slayed a full shardbearers.  Then Kal gave them away to some untrained dark eyed spearman.  

Meanwhile Amaram was probanly fully trained in the use of both Plate and Blade, and he was already an influential brightlords.  Plus as a member of one of the infamous secret societies, he already had knowledge beyond even what we currently know.  I honestly think him taking the shards was better for Alethi and probably all of Roshar in general than letting some spearman have them unearned.  Not over Kaladin if he had chosen to accept them however.  The only way to make it work was to kill a few dark eyes, but he did let Kaladin live, so that's something.

Besides, every one else all says he always seemed too good to be true.  But nobody else ever found a single thing wrong with him.  Dalinar considers himself a good judge of chssracter he tells Kal, which is why he trusts Kaladin so much.  And even heccsats Amaram was one of the bedt men he dver knew.

 

He did one distasteful thing, for the greater good.  It juddt happens to be magnified because he did it "onscreen" to a beloved main character.  I don't considrrr him beyond redemption.  With what we currently know.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

for the greater good

Ah yes, the classic argument for everyone, who does despicable things.

[Tarion]

11 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

He did one distasteful thing, for the greater good.  It juddt happens to be magnified because he did it "onscreen" to a beloved main character.  I don't considrrr him beyond redemption.  With what we currently know.

That's more than one distasteful thing. Let's tally them up. 
He steals Shards. He kills men to cover it up. He sells a man into slavery to cover it up. He lies about how he obtained his Shards.

He also steals another Shardblade in Words of Radiance.

He's also explicitly working to cause a Desolation, an event which will kill 90% of the world's population in order to cause the return of the Heralds. 

[Leyrann]

I guess he fills the Knight Templar and Well-Intentioned Extremist tropes. He thinks he's doing the right thing, but if you were to place him on the famous D&D (and maybe other stuff?) scale, he'd be Lawful Evil.

[The Invested Beard]

Okay maybe I was being a little harsh on the guy. I'm just protective of my Bridge Four buddies like Adolin I guess.

That being said, he has done some pretty distasteful things for "the greater good". Never really a big fan of such characters.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

First off, concerning the duel: even if Amaram is forced to go through with it, I would think that Adolin can be persuaded to wait until after the Desolation. I don't think it will come to that though: if Adolins status as the murderer is revealed, Amaram can easily break off from the dueling agreement. 

Second, concerning Amaram as a person: I don't think he is despicable, or evil. Amaram is a deeply religious man, for whom the faith in the Heralds and the Almighty is everything. He genuinely believes that mankind would be better off led by the Church. I think that people who call Amaram hungry for power, or attribute other bad traits to him has misunderstood him. From Amarams perspective, humanity is led astray, away from the one most important thing there is: the Almighty. He is trying to get everyone back on track, so to speak. He recognizes that this will end up harming many, and he regrets having to do commit actions he commits. Compare this to someone like Sadeas, who seems to enjoy his despicable actions. He slaughters an army without feeling a thing, while Amaram feels guilt for four men. There is an obvious difference there. I think Amaram genuinely wants to be good, and I think that a lot of his honorable actions are the real him, not a facade. He is kind toward his servants, he promised to stand trial before Dalinar (a vow I think he will keep). So, in the end, I don't see Amaram as a bad person. He is misguided and a fanatic, but also well-intentioned and ultimately a good person. 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

My thoughts on Amaram. 

I couldn't care less whether he goes on to save Roshar, he will still be one of the most despicable people on the planet. At present only person to beat him for first spot is Gavilar. My arguments: What is the worst thing a person can do?

1. Betray a friend.

2. Betray your men who trust you.

Ocassions when it is acceptable to do so:

a. When you literally have no choice.

Ocassions when it becomes absolutely abominable to do so:

b. Personal gain

Amaram happily did 2, he had plenty of choice, he had personal gain and to add insult to injury he started spouting off about "the greater good". When a person starts talking about the greater good its a good time to either put a continent between you or hire assasins. Because it means they are going to start doing evil things while telling themselves fancy lies that they are heroes while they do so to be able to sleep at night. Not only are they despicable, but they don't even have the strength to admit it.

Veredict: Despicable, weak, cowardly. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Tarion]

48 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Second, concerning Amaram as a person: I don't think he is despicable, or evil. Amaram is a deeply religious man, for whom the faith in the Heralds and the Almighty is everything. He genuinely believes that mankind would be better off led by the Church. I think that people who call Amaram hungry for power, or attribute other bad traits to him has misunderstood him. From Amarams perspective, humanity is led astray, away from the one most important thing there is: the Almighty. He is trying to get everyone back on track, so to speak. He recognizes that this will end up harming many, and he regrets having to do commit actions he commits. Compare this to someone like Sadeas, who seems to enjoy his despicable actions. He slaughters an army without feeling a thing, while Amaram feels guilt for four men. There is an obvious difference there. I think Amaram genuinely wants to be good, and I think that a lot of his honorable actions are the real him, not a facade. He is kind toward his servants, he promised to stand trial before Dalinar (a vow I think he will keep). So, in the end, I don't see Amaram as a bad person. He is misguided and a fanatic, but also well-intentioned and ultimately a good person. 

Genuine question - Who's worse, Adolf Hitler who wanted to kill a small percentage of the world's population and believed that Germany and the Aryan race should lead the world, or Amaram who wanted to kill 90% of the world's population and believed that the church should lead the world? 

Acting according to your beliefs is not inherently moral. Believing that millions should die so that your beliefs can be enacting is often outright evil.

Again, 90% of the world. World War one killed ~1% of the population. World War 2 killed ~3% of the population. Amaram's actions would be roughly equivalent to 30 WW2s all happening at once. There's literally never been a catastrophe near that scale in the world. It was enough to reduce civilisation back to the stone age. 

[Yezrien]

Adolin challenged Sadeas to a duel, and Sadeas postponed it for a year. But Adolin found a way to resolve things in a timely manner.

Maybe Amaram has a date with Torol Sadeas. In the Beyond.

We should be on the lookout for characters who physically resemble Amaram; their days might be numbered.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Belzedar

[KidWayne he/him]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

First off, concerning the duel: even if Amaram is forced to go through with it, I would think that Adolin can be persuaded to wait until after the Desolation. I don't think it will come to that though: if Adolins status as the murderer is revealed, Amaram can easily break off from the dueling agreement. 

Second, concerning Amaram as a person: I don't think he is despicable, or evil. Amaram is a deeply religious man, for whom the faith in the Heralds and the Almighty is everything. He genuinely believes that mankind would be better off led by the Church. I think that people who call Amaram hungry for power, or attribute other bad traits to him has misunderstood him. From Amarams perspective, humanity is led astray, away from the one most important thing there is: the Almighty. He is trying to get everyone back on track, so to speak. He recognizes that this will end up harming many, and he regrets having to do commit actions he commits. Compare this to someone like Sadeas, who seems to enjoy his despicable actions. He slaughters an army without feeling a thing, while Amaram feels guilt for four men. There is an obvious difference there. I think Amaram genuinely wants to be good, and I think that a lot of his honorable actions are the real him, not a facade. He is kind toward his servants, he promised to stand trial before Dalinar (a vow I think he will keep). So, in the end, I don't see Amaram as a bad person. He is misguided and a fanatic, but also well-intentioned and ultimately a good person. 

So, you're defending his ignorance. I agree with your assessment of Amaram, but he is deceived. He has put his faith in a lie; a lie which leads him to perform terrible deeds.

Look at a real world religious example: Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them" in reference to good people vs. evil people and false teachers vs. teachers of the truth. The secular adage "the proof is in the pudding" is another way of expressing the same sentiment.

To put it another way, what you believe is important, but it's nothing in comparison to what you do.

So, the 'Amaram is innocent by virtue of ignorance / mistake of fact / invalid belief' argument doesn't move me to be all that merciful to him.

Edited October 25, 2017 by KidWayne

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Tarion Hitler is worse. There are a couple of reasons for this. First off, he wanted to kill people. Amaram doesn't want anyone to die. He knows that that will be the effect of his actions, but he would rather see that no one got killed. Then we also have the fact that Hitler killed people because they were not aryan, or were handicapped, or homosexual. Basically because they didn't fit his view on the world. He targeted specific groups. Amaram doesn't target anyone, or he targets everyone, depending on how you choose to see it.

@KidWayne I agree with the fact that Amaram is deceived. The Almighty aint no God, he is an old guy named Tanavast, who happens to be dead. Amaram doesn't know this, however, and we can't judge him for beliving in a lie, when we have a lot more facts than he has. When it comes to actions vs intent, I believe that intent says more about a person than the action does. I don't really see belief vs action here, I see intent vs action, which is somewhat different.

[Mulk he/him]

Tarion, that's true on a fractional scale but may not be true on a raw numbers scale.  Do we know how many people actually live on Roshar?  60 million died in WWII, roughly, maybe as high as 80 million.  I've got trouble believing the scale for the population of Roshar is anything like that large.  IN any case, still bad.

I agree acting on your beliefs is moral only if your beliefs are themselves moral.  And I think Amaram isn't being moral even if his beliefs were correct.  You see, for practiced shardbearers he could have left the man Kaladin chose to receive his shards alive and had him trained.  The effect would have been the same overall, in terms of numbers of shards available.  Amaram wanted the shards for himself so he could play the hero; basically it was jealousy and only his nagging conscience made him leave Kaladin alive so he could at least lie to himself that he'd been merciful.

And I've no real patience with the innocence argument.  He knows he does harsh/bad things for "the greater good" but he has redefined the greater good in his mind to mean that it is 1) the greater good he defines; and 2) the greater good he enacts, to excuse his greed for the shards.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

24 minutes ago, Mulk said:

I agree acting on your beliefs is moral only if your beliefs are themselves moral.  And I think Amaram isn't being moral even if his beliefs were correct.  You see, for practiced shardbearers he could have left the man Kaladin chose to receive his shards alive and had him trained.  The effect would have been the same overall, in terms of numbers of shards available.  Amaram wanted the shards for himself so he could play the hero; basically it was jealousy and only his nagging conscience made him leave Kaladin alive so he could at least lie to himself that he'd been merciful.

And I've no real patience with the innocence argument.  He knows he does harsh/bad things for "the greater good" but he has redefined the greater good in his mind to mean that it is 1) the greater good he defines; and 2) the greater good he enacts, to excuse his greed for the shards.

The "if your beliefs is moral-part" is trouble, since everyone believes differently. How do we know who is right? 

You may be right about Amaram doing the deed partly out of jealousy (I doubt he was aware of that himself though, it would have been in his subconscious). We have to remember that it wasn't a decision he took lightly though. He spent several hours discussing with Restares, and if we go by what he says himself, Restares had to talk him into taking the Shards. Furthermore, training someone in Shards takes time, particularly if it is a guy who has never held a sword before. It is fully possible that Amaram thought he would need Shards before the guy was done training, which might have taken years.

The greater good is another thing that can change depending on who you ask.

[Knabepicer]

Personally I took Amaram’s reasoning that he couldn’t just ask Kaladin for the Shards because obviously he would be convinced by everyone else to ask for them back to be pretty clearly in bad faith.

[Unhinged he/him]

one thing that I feel like pointing out here is that Amaram isn't totally ignorant anymore. Dalinar has spoken to the almighty or a memory of him and received conformation that he is in fact dead. Amaram completely believes that Dalinar is receiving these visions from Honor so he has no reason to doubt their authenticity but when he's confronted with evidence that his grand designs might be for nothing he denies it. Compare to say Szeth who apon learning he isn't truthless has a total mental breakdown I can't help but feel a lack of sympathy for Amaram.