Bands of Mourning Theory: Wayne

[Crimson Cutlery he/him]

There is more to Wayne than he is letting on

He is Fiercely intelligent, a fantastic actor as well as courageous; As such I'm never quite sure what to think of him. what is a facade and what isn't. How genuine is he really? I just cant seem to trust the guy. And then I had an idea

 

Wayne is one of the 'Faceless Immortals' of the Set

Yes, he has Allomancy but so did bleeder

Yes, he's a blood maker but that is easily replicated by a Kandra. It was even said that MeLaan would have been a good choice for operation rotten tomato
He has better mimicry than a Kandra
You might say that he can't be a villain, he's a POV character, we would have known ages ago, BUT we've all seen how easily Wayne gets into character. When he does his thoughts AS POV changes

 

And I think that BranSan has left enough foreshadowing to allow for it

Spoiler

He left Wax's sister alive while knowing that she was an artificial blood maker, and allowing her to escape instead of capturing her to interrogate. and when he gets caught at that, he throws an oh so innocent "What would Wax do", distracting Wax with his own guilt. He knows Wax and people too well to actually believe that.

We've known for a while that the set barely considers Wax a threat, merely distracting him with old scraps of projects. What if they are so confident because they've got an inside man, just like Suit was at the end of BoM

 

Tell me what you guys think? Is this a crazy theory? Too crazy? Just crazy enough to work?

 

 

[Mestiv he/him]

@Crimson Cutlery I think you posted in the wrong place  17th Shard Discussion forum is for technicalities and organization stuff related to the website and forum. To discuss books, use one of dedicated forums, like the one I moved your topic to.

[BlackYeti he/him]

Wow, this is really crazy. You'll fit in here perfectly, welcome to the Shard! 

I think you're making a mistake by equating the Set's "Faceless Immortals" with the kandra. The only example of the former that we have seen had glowing red eyes, which doesn't match what we saw with Bleeder, or any kandra. This suggests to me that the two are entirely different entities, and that Suit was only framing it in terms that he understood: i.e. he doesn't really know what they are either.

Beyond that, there's the whole issue of how Wayne could be a kandra without realising it, or the other kandra realising it for that matter.

[Aon Ati he/him]

I really hope that this not true. Wayne is one of my favorites and this would make me very, very unhappy. Thankfully, I have an argument against it. Wayne is twinborn, meaning that if he was a faceless immortal  (and if they operate like the kandra) Harmony would be able to sense that Wayne is not normal. But I can see several arguments made that could debunk this, but that's what happens to theories on the 17th shard. They are destroyed.

[SilverTiger she/her]

I have a private theory that Wayne will be turned into a kandra by Harmony. The kandra are losing members and not gaining new ones, and Wayne had a skill set similar to a kandra's.

[Yata he/him]

4 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

I have a private theory that Wayne will be turned into a kandra by Harmony. The kandra are losing members and not gaining new ones, and Wayne had a skill set similar to a kandra's.

The problem remains, the Kandra are losing member and they could not make new one....Wayne could be turned into a mistwrath but without Blessings He can't become a Kandra

[SilverTiger she/her]

Exactly. They have lost a lot of members (like, the entire Second group, I think,) so they have extra blessings. Also, Wayne is already a Feruchemist, like the original kandra. He could be turned into a mistwraith by Harmony, and then given Blessings by the kandra.

[Yata he/him]

3 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Exactly. They have lost a lot of members (like, the entire Second group, I think,) so they have extra blessings. Also, Wayne is already a Feruchemist, like the original kandra. He could be turned into a mistwraith by Harmony, and then given Blessings by the kandra.

The Blessing can't be re-used. It's the reason they could not increase their number. They are crafted and keyed to the first user

[Fourth Of The Night]

2 minutes ago, Yata said:

The Blessing can't be re-used. It's the reason they could not increase their number. They are crafted and keyed to the first user

No, that can't be right. Otherwise, how would TenSoon use OreSeur's Blessings?

Edit:
Also, we know that each Mistwraith has their own consciousness separate from the Blessings, and that the Blessings just allow that consciousness to function properly, see MeLaan regaining her spike in BoM.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Fourth Of The Night
New thought

[SilverTiger she/her]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

The Blessing can't be re-used. It's the reason they could not increase their number. They are crafted and keyed to the first user

Where is that from? Because I don't recall it from the books or any WoB I've seen (which, admittedly, is not a massive amount).

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

No, that can't be right. Otherwise, how would TenSoon use OreSeur's Blessings?

Edit:
Also, we know that each Mistwraith has their own consciousness separate from the Blessings, and that the Blessings just allow that consciousness to function properly, see MeLaan regaining her spike in BoM.

 

36 minutes ago, SilverTiger said:

Where is that from? Because I don't recall it from the books or any WoB I've seen (which, admittedly, is not a massive amount).

Every Spike could be fine as extra Blessing but the "main ones" have to be crafted for them.

It's the whole BoM's point...The Kandra can't Simply replace the Lost Spike with other they have avaliable.

[Fourth Of The Night]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

 

Every Spike could be fine as extra Blessing but the "main ones" have to be crafted for them.

It's the whole BoM's point...The Kandra can't Simply replace the Lost Spike with other they have avaliable.

I think that is because the Blessings are paired. You couldn't replace one of a pair of Blessings with one from a separate pair. Perhaps each Kandra is tuned in to their Blessing, and if they solely used another they would be different, but that doesn't mean that once they die their Blessings couldn't be used to make another Kandra.

[Yata he/him]

5 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

I think that is because the Blessings are paired. You couldn't replace one of a pair of Blessings with one from a separate pair. Perhaps each Kandra is tuned in to their Blessing, and if they solely used another they would be different, but that doesn't mean that once they die their Blessings couldn't be used to make another Kandra.

Except they didn't work in that way.

If that was the case the Kandra could Simply remove the other ReLuur's Spike to replace It with a complete pair.... Teenson tried to gave him his extra Spikes and didn't work.

By the way, the Blessings aren't really paired...the Kandra Need only two Hemalurgic Spikes to stay fine, if they are of different metals or with different properties don't matter. They Just Need for the Spike to be' crafted from them (I believe It's more "nobody else used them")

Edited October 13, 2017 by Yata

[Fourth Of The Night]

12 minutes ago, Yata said:

Except they didn't work in that way.

If that was the case the Kandra could Simply remove the other ReLuur's Spike to replace It with a complete pair.... Teenson tried to gave him his extra Spikes and didn't work.

By the way, the Blessings aren't really paired...the Kandra Need only two Hemalurgic Spikes to stay fine, if they are of different metals or with different properties don't matter. They Just Need for the Spike to be' crafted from them (I believe It's more "nobody else used them")

That is why I said that perhaps each Kandra needs, as a base, the Blessings used to make them Kandra originally.

Yes, they are paired. A single Blessing is two spikes. See: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Kandra#Blessings . I can't recall where in the text of Mistborn it specifies that a Blessing is composed of two spikes, but it's one of TenSoon's chapters.

Edit: Also, TenSoon gave ReLuur a single one of his spikes, not an entire Blessing.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Fourth Of The Night

[Yata he/him]

I know a Blessing is a couple of Spikes...but the spikes has not relationship to each other...they are not craft together or craft ti work together.

About the original Blessing...Bleeder shows is that is not true as She change her Blessing with a new "half Blessing" and they change It multiple time in the book

[Fourth Of The Night]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

I know a Blessing is a couple of Spikes...but the spikes has not relationship to each other...they are not craft together or craft ti work together.

About the original Blessing...Bleeder shows is that is not true as She change her Blessing with a new "half Blessing" and they change It multiple time in the book

I don't believe that is correct. Each Blessing is referred to based on the power it gives the Kandra. A Blessing of Potency is two Iron spikes, as shown by TenSoon recovering OreSeur's Blessing of Potency in Chapter 39 of HoA-They are both Iron. The spikes need to both be Iron to be a Blessing of Potency, this is also reinforced in the HoA Epigraph for 40 when Sazed talks about each pair of the 4 Iron spikes needed to create a Koloss would be called a Blessing of Potency by a Kandra.

Bleeder is a special case, and she is insane when she uses a single spike of her Blessing and a single spike from Trell.

 

[Calderis he/him]

I don't know whether blessingsare paired or not, but blessings could absolutely be used to create new Kandra from old spikes.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/47770-shadows-of-self-tour-edinburgh/?do=findComment&comment=346165

Quote

BlackYeti

Kandra, you're not getting any more of those. But they can die, so what's stopping them from creating new creating new kandra out of the mistwraith by recycling the Blessings?

Brandon Sanderson

That is mostly just cultural.

*paraphrased* In The Bands of Mourning, you might expect to see kandra using other kandra's spikes.

 

[Yata he/him]

27 minutes ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

I don't believe that is correct. Each Blessing is referred to based on the power it gives the Kandra. A Blessing of Potency is two Iron spikes, as shown by TenSoon recovering OreSeur's Blessing of Potency in Chapter 39 of HoA-They are both Iron. The spikes need to both be Iron to be a Blessing of Potency, this is also reinforced in the HoA Epigraph for 40 when Sazed talks about each pair of the 4 Iron spikes needed to create a Koloss would be called a Blessing of Potency by a Kandra.

Bleeder is a special case, and she is insane when she uses a single spike of her Blessing and a single spike from Trell.

 

Ehm no... Bleeder uses a single Spike for Trell, She had not others Spikes in herself at the same time.

Anyway you confuse what It's tradizionale and what is a rule.

A Kandra Need two spikes to mantain his sapiency. But those Spike could any kind of Hemalurgic Spikes.

in the Final Empire they uses only 4 kinds and always paired, but It's not a rule, they could make Kandra with different Spikes.

Of course if you use a Blessing made of different metals, you Will not gain the same benefit of (for example) the Blessing of Potency.

@Calderis except we saw directly in BoM they were unable to fix ReLuur unless they retrive his Spike...I think the WoB refer mainly to what Teenson does (use another Kandra's Blessing ad extra Spikes)

Edited October 13, 2017 by Yata

[Fourth Of The Night]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

Ehm no... Bleeder uses a single Spike for Trell, She had not others Spikes in herself at the same time.

Anyway you confuse what It's tradizionale and what is a rule.

A Kandra Need two spikes to mantain his sapiency. But those Spike could any kind of Hemalurgic Spikes.

in the Final Empire they uses only 4 kinds and always paired, but It's not a rule, they could make Kandra with different Spikes.

Of course if you use a Blessing made of different metals, you Will not gain the same benefit of (for example) the Blessing of Potency

Ah you're right on the first point-she swaps her single spike for the Trell spike, my bad on that one.

Where are you getting the idea that a Kandra could use any two Hemalurgic Spikes? Kandra Blessings are very specific spikes, as far as I am aware-and I seem to remember it being mentioned that they were very difficult to make. Yes, there are only 4 kinds of Blessings, and Brandon has said there are additional Blessings that could be made, but I haven't seen any information that says that any two Hemalurgic Spikes could be used.

[SilverTiger she/her]

Thank you, @Calderis, for confirming that my theory is actually plausible. @Yata, @Fourth Of The Night, unless there's a WoB on this, I think your argument's just going to go in circles. Or the two of you will come of with crazy-but-brilliant conclusion. Or go insane.

[Fourth Of The Night]

@SilverTiger Sadly, I'm already insane.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

16 hours ago, Fourth Of The Night said:

@SilverTiger Sadly, I'm already insane.

We all are.

[Shaitan he/him]

Dont think Wayne would turn out to be a 'faceless immortal' even less so that he is working for the set.  If there was anytime he have revealed himself it was in obtaining the bands of mourning.  Those are about as close to 'end-game' as it could have gotten.  I DO however was worried i was only person who had considered this line of though, but i rather believe that he will be MADE into a Kandra.  It always seems to be a slightly side character who ends up as a the pivot point in these (sazed, vashar, etc) but rather then the main.  

As their are no longer Kandra being made without the Lord Ruler to do so they'd probably only be able to reuse spikes that were already applied to Kandra, so I'm thinking that perhaps he ends up with Lessies -Paalms- spikes.  *Foreshadowing moment* When MeLaan said to him "you're wasted as a human".  Marsh already set precedent to hold over a character from previous Mistborn group, so why not have another?

Sidenote- the kinda "kandra" in the set?  What else do we know that has red eyes in the Cosmere?  The Parshendi under Odiums influence (sorry Bavadin) 

[Calderis he/him]

8 minutes ago, jayparker said:

As their are no longer Kandra being made without the Lord Ruler to do so they'd probably only be able to reuse spikes that were already applied to Kandra, so I'm thinking that perhaps he ends up with Lessies -Paalms- spikes.  *Foreshadowing moment* When MeLaan said to him "you're wasted as a human". 

The blessings of a Kandra are specifically designed to change a mistwraith into a Kandra. Whatever they would do to a normal human probably wouldn't be desirable, but it's wouldn't alter their Spiritual aspect enough to make a Kandra. 

11 minutes ago, jayparker said:

the kinda "kandra" in the set?  What else do we know that has red eyes in the Cosmere?  The Parshendi under Odiums influence (sorry Bavadin) 

The color red has nothing to do with Odium specifically. It's a sign of co-opted investiture. 

Quote

FirstSelector [PENDING REVIEW]

Does red in cosmere signify one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

source

A body possessed by something of a different shard should have red eyes regardless of what shard is the source. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell he/him]

I’m not too proficient in pairings of spikes. However let’s say Wayne is a Kandra from the Set. One spike is sufficient to give him his consciousness and bendalloy allomantic abilities. In order to become a bloodmaker he would need another spike. Wayne is a bloodmaker, his abilities are not  a Kandra natural healing mimicking a bloodmaker, thus he was able to tap the metalmind Wax found. Two spikes would allow him to be controlled by Harmony . Other Kandra cannot detect Kandra thus Melaani could not find Paalm. But Harmony  would certainly know and be alarmed a Kanfra is around working for another shard , watching his chosen representative Wax!