[OB] There's something royal 'bout them locks...

[+Extesian]

@Erunion from the annotations to chapter 22. Must be direct line to the person who will inherit. 

Quote

Only Potential Heirs of Idris Have Royal Locks

This is true. It's not a matter of genetics, but lineage. That's a subtle distinction. Only the children of the person who ends up inheriting will have the Royal Locks. (Though there are a couple of notable exceptions to this, they won't show up in this book, as it will take another novel to explain why and how the Royal Locks really work. If I ever write a sequel, that should be in it.)

This factoid about the Royal Locks should be one of several hints about the lineage of the Idrian crown. There is something odd about their heritage.

Source

 

[Yata]

13 hours ago, Erunion said:

Do we have WOB that royal cousins don’t have the locks? As in - if the middle sister had kids would they have the locks? 

 

However, we can’t jump to the conclusion that Denth was Royal. 

The Royal Locks are a holdover from their Returned progenitor. Denth is a Returned, suppressing his shape. Likely on one of many different faces. It is entirely plausible that any Returned can have flipping hair at death under the right conditions, and that the same may have happened to Vasher should he have died violently here. 

 

Doesnt mean hea NOT royal, merely that that conclusion is uncertain. 

 

What is certain however is that the scout is Vivenna  

There is a WoB explicit says (I will try to find later but I hope for now you will trust my Lightweaver's Memory) that Denth has the Royal Locks indipendently by being a Returned

EDIT: Ok it was really too easy XD
 

Quote

KURKISTAN ()

Does Denth have the Royal Locks, independent of being a Returned?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. (Good question.)

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Yata

[JoyBlu]

On 10/12/2017 at 10:06 AM, SilverTiger said:

Evi is of Iriali descent, all Iriali have bright gold-colored hair. Plus, Evi has a brother (Toh) and is described as vapid. I can't imagine Vivenna being vapid.

Dalinar remembered.

Her name had been Evi. She’d been tall and willowy, with pale yellow hair—not true golden, like the hair of the Iriali, but striking in its own right.

--OB Chapter 24

On 10/12/2017 at 10:06 AM, Wreith said:

So you think she found a Riran willing to lie about being her brother then?

Golden hair is a known Riran trait.

I really doubt Vivenna's appearance will be as central a figure as Evi is likely to be

Evi's hair is yellow; not quite golden.  I find it interesting that her hair is one of the 1st things Dalinar remembers about her.

On 10/12/2017 at 10:07 AM, Calderis said:

Evi is Riran. It's possible she has a touch of Iriali blood that would give her hair a gold sheen on top of  being blond. 

In a culture full of starkly black haired Alethi, who dye their hair to hide foreign blood, someone walking around with such a drastically different hair color is notable in itself. 

Add in that Evi is dead... And I think that's a big nope.

Is she dead? Or mostly dead? See, mostly dead is still slightly alive.

 

and from warbreaker (spoilers)

Spoiler

She (Siri) wore a deep brown cloak that bordered on being too colorful, and--of course--she had her hair down.  The hair was yellow.  (chapter 1)

She (Siri) smiles, opening her eys, and let her hair change to a determined golden yellow. (chapter 12)

Siri's hair, which even she should have been able to keep a dark brown, was instead the golden yellow of enjoyment. (chapter 14)

Dressed in one of her new gowns, (Vivenna) her hair turned and uncomfortable -- yet un-Idrian - yellow and left loose) (chapter 25)

Vivenna forced in a smile, but it felt insincere, even to her.  For their benefit, she changed her hair color to yellow.  The color of happiness and excitement. (chapter 31, pg 329)

"They're embarrassing!"  Siri said, feeling her short hair grow red.  She turned it back to yellow in an instant. (chapter 36, pg 384)

 

Well then, if I must,” she (Siri) said, tossing her head and commanding her

hair become a deep auburn red. It flushed midtoss, flaring from yellow to red

like ink bleeding into a pool of clear water. Then she made it grow. The abil-

ity was more instinctive than conscious—like flexing a muscle. In this case, it

was a “muscle” she’d been using a lot lately, since she tended to cut her hair

off in the eve nings rather than spending the time combing it. (385)

 

“I’ve had to learn to control it better,” Siri said with a grimace. “People

can read me too easily by it. Here.” She changed it from black to yellow, and

he smiled, running his fingers through its lengthy locks. (pg 449)

 

The guard turned, and—shockingly—Vivenna stepped up onto the roof

of the palace. Or Siri

thought

it was Vivenna. She wore trousers and a tunic,

with a sword tied at her waist, and she appeared to have a bloody wound on

one shoulder. She saw Siri, and smiled, her hair turning yellow with joy.

Vivenna’s hair changing?

Siri thought.

It can’t be her.

But it was. The woman laughed, dashing across the top of the roof. (pg 579)

 

 

 

So Siri & Vivenna both share the same hair.  Just something to think about.  While Having Vivenna and Evi both be the same person is kinda outrageous, I don't see anything that disqualifies it, and it would be fun. (unless Dalinar kills her)

I want to know Vivenna's eye color.  I'm pretty sure Warbreaker doesn't say what it is. Who says it isn't changed if a world hopped comes to Roshar?

 

[Erunion]

Thanks @Extesian and @Yata! My objections are neatly removed by WOB. Denth has returned ancestry; likely he and his sister were from the Hallandren/Idrian royal line (unless his sister wasn’t a biological sister, in which case it would just be him). 

Interesting on only potential heirs being able to inherit. I wonder how far back that goes, and how it’s affected by primogeniture/etc.  

Going by historical royalty, lots of cousins would be able to inherit if the immediate family were wiped out by a plague or by war. So I’m curious if the Idrian royal family has junior branches as cousins, and if they have Royal Locks, or if that’s just confined to the likely heirs. Also, do heirs lose the locks as their odds of inheriting decrease? 

So, would the middle sister lose her Royal Locks if Vivenna had a dozen children? What if she had one? What if she had grandchildren? 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Erunion
Spelling

[Gigalemesh]

37 minutes ago, Erunion said:

So, would the middle sister lose her Royal Locks if Vivenna had a dozen children?

I think it's probably that only the children of the monarch will inherit the Royal Locks, not that people lose the locks when they aren't in the running. @Marethyu316 suggested this previously and it seems the most sensible to me. You don't ever lose the Royal Locks, you just don't inherit them unless your parent is the Monarch 

[Wreith]

23 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

I think it's probably that only the children of the monarch will inherit the Royal Locks, not that people lose the locks when they aren't in the running. @Marethyu316 suggested this previously and it seems the most sensible to me. You don't ever lose the Royal Locks, you just don't inherit them unless your parent is the Monarch 

I think the annotation for chapter 22 along with knowing Denth has Royal Locks on his own makes this pretty clear.

What I want to know is, if the heir has children before they inherit, does first kid have the locks from birth or do they spontaneously manifest when the heir is crowned?

[Yata]

3 hours ago, Wreith said:

I think the annotation for chapter 22 along with knowing Denth has Royal Locks on his own makes this pretty clear.

What I want to know is, if the heir has children before they inherit, does first kid have the locks from birth or do they spontaneously manifest when the heir is crowned?

I believe it's Cognitive in nature and they will turn on/off the Royal Locks depending of their position in the direct line because they were teached in that way. Honestly I can't imagine how a situation like that started, but once you have the system in place is quite simple to mantain

[JoyBlu]

So I am reading random passages/chapters in preparation for OB and just found this 

Quote

“If you knew how many spoiled ten-year-old lighteyed brats came through here,” Zahel said, “you’d think it worth noting. I thought a nineteen-year-old like him would be insufferable. And don’t call him a boy, boy. He’s probably close to your own age, and is the son of the most powerful human on this—”

Zahel talking to Kaladin about Renarian

Powerful Human on this . . . . (Planet) ? Could Vivenna be the most powerful human??? Could Vivenna  be Renarian’s mom???? Adolin’s hair is golden!!! 

Quote

Adolin grunted, surveying the place, barely paying Kaladin any heed. He was a tall man, his few black Alethi hairs overwhelmed by quite a bit of golden blond. His father didn’t have that. Adolin’s mother had been from Rira, perhaps? (WoR)

Quote

“We have legitimate business,” said the officer in blue. He had light golden hair, speckled with Alethi black, and a handsome face. (WoK 660)

I’m really starting to convince myself that Evi is Vivenna. Dalinar ‘s boon/curse is somehow tied to him finding out about who Evi really was. Evi broke his heart. 

[Yata]

21 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

So I am reading random passages/chapters in preparation for OB and just found this 

Zahel talking to Kaladin about Renarian

Powerful Human on this . . . . (Planet) ? Could Vivenna be the most powerful human??? Could Vivenna  be Renarian’s mom???? Adolin’s hair is golden!!! 

I’m really starting to convince myself that Evi is Vivenna. Dalinar ‘s boon/curse is somehow tied to him finding out about who Evi really was. Evi broke his heart. 

Well Dalinar is One or the powerful Humans of the Planet.

We have a WoB about Vienna searching Vasher that alone will disprove the Evi as Vivenna as Zahel is at Dalinar's service from many years.

Lastly there are (already pointed in the topic) plot reason for Evi and Vivienna as different people.

[Goatbringer]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

We have a WoB about Vienna searching Vasher that alone will disprove the Evi as Vivenna as Zahel is at Dalinar's service from many years.

Yeah. As much as I'd love for Evi and Vivenna to be the same person, it just wouldn't make any sense. I feel like this 'hair' thing is a red herring for people who are actively looking for Vivenna in this book, but having her be Evi just wouldn't make sense, particularly if she's been looking for Vasher and he's been a monk for Dalinar for years.

[+Extesian]

My link to the hair was a speculative theory on the history of the Iriali and the Long Trail, if anyone's interested. 

 

[The One Who Connects]

21 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

Powerful Human on this . . . . (Planet) ?

That'd be Dalinar. We even have a WoB

Quote

Questioner
Zahel says to Renarin-- I'm sorry, about Renarin... *brief interruption*

Brandon Sanderson
So, keep going.

Questioner
He calls him "the son of the most powerful human on this..." And I was wondering, the word "human", is that referring to Dalinar or is it referring to maybe Dalinar *inaudible/interrupted*

Brandon Sanderson
Good question! It is referring to Dalinar.

Questioner
It is!? So how would you finish that sentence? "The most powerful human on this..."

Brandon Sanderson
"Planet."

I'm pretty sure there's also a WoB where Brandon said that Dalinar could be one of the most dangerous individuals on Roshar if he chose to, so Vasher's opinion appears to be validated.

[JoyBlu]

40 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

That'd be Dalinar. We even have a WoB

I'm pretty sure there's also a WoB where Brandon said that Dalinar could be one of the most dangerous individuals on Roshar if he chose to, so Vasher's opinion appears to be validated.

Wow! Thank you for that WoB! I think I need to start reading the new WoB — kinda like one would read the encyclopedia! So now the question is . . . What is not human that is on this planet?

[+Extesian]

21 minutes ago, JoyBlu said:

Wow! Thank you for that WoB! I think I need to start reading the new WoB — kinda like one would read the encyclopedia! So now the question is . . . What is not human that is on this planet?

 Heralds most likely, the changes in them probably classify them as no longer human, like Hoid. My specific guess is Tezim, who may also be a Herald (likely Ishar). Mraize also refers to him as probably not being human or at least not of the local variety iirc.

Oh and @The One Who Connects

Quote

Questioner

Who is the most dangerous of Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar?

Brandon Sanderson

Hmm… haw… Depends on which era of their lives… Probably Dalinar is the most dangerous. But that's a really tough question! After Dalinar probably Shallan.

Source

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Extesian

[Calderis]

@Extesian, I love that Kal comes in last of the three. Everyone is always like, "Kal is amazing!" and he's least dangerous of the three.

Shallan... I can see Shallan getting scary. Quick. 

[Erunion]

@JoyBlu - oh, tons. The heralds aren’t strictly human anymore (cognitive shadows). Neither is Vasher himself. Aimian aren’t human. Listeners are genetically close (can interbreed apparently, so very close), but not human. Horneaters and Herdazians are only part-human (they’re part Listener as well).  

[JoyBlu]

@The One Who Connects  @Extesian  @Erunion

Thanks for all your answers. So I guess I need to pay attention to what counts as a human. Good to confirm that Dalinar is human. So that means that Rock & Palona are only part human. Interesting. I hadn’t thought of it that way. I knew Rock could see Spren and that his heritage set him apart but the non-human part didn’t really click. They both seem so human. All of the sudden I feel like I’m watching old StarTrek reruns with so many life forms to be aware of.  

“Son of the most powerful human”. 

Human still seems a strange word to use — but I suppose it is coming from Vasher — who isn't considered human. 

It makes me wonder what is making Dalinar so powerful. Is Gavilar hanging out in the Cognitive or spiritual realm “helping” his brother some how? Giving him an extra push? What does Dalinar have that makes him so powerful?  Was it something he did (like give away the black stone necklace) or was it something he just fell into or was born into?

I’m way over analyzing that sentence. 

[Erunion]

@JoyBlu - it could just mean politics. No one has as much influence or can command as large an army and retinue. No human in Roshar has the resources, capacity and will that Dalinar Kholin has. 

[+Extesian]

I think it's a combination on many of those things and his desire to unify but willingness to destroy. But mostly I think it's that he's a Bondsmith, he's the first (new Bondsmith) and he's bonded probably the most powerful spren on Roshar (and that spren is merged with the cognitive shadow of a former Shard). I think Bondsmiths will prove to be extraordinarily powerful. One of them appears to have enslaved a world full of Listeners after all. 

[Salkara]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

@Extesian, I love that Kal comes in last of the three. Everyone is always like, "Kal is amazing!" and he's least dangerous of the three.

Shallan... I can see Shallan getting scary. Quick. 

Doesn't it seem obvious though? The question wasn't about who was the deadliest in a fight. It was who's the most dangerous: the warlord tyrant, the unhinged girl, or the guy who just wants to do right by the world? Of course Kaladin is the least dangerous, but that doesn't mean he couldn't whoop the other two (at current power levels).

[The One Who Connects]

On 11/11/2017 at 0:51 AM, JoyBlu said:

Human still seems a strange word to use — but I suppose it is coming from Vasher — who isn't considered human.

It's out of place to you because most of Roshar is out of place to us. The world was meant to be strange and alien to us. We don't have an equivalent non-human society on Earth.

But for the people there, humanity has coexisted(in various states of aggression) with the Parshendi and the Spren for over 11,000 years. Using the "human" qualifier is entirely warranted in their case.

On 11/11/2017 at 0:51 AM, JoyBlu said:

It makes me wonder what is making Dalinar so powerful.

To add to what Erunion said, Dalinar has a reputation: The Blackthorn. That reputation didn't just come from nowhere, he earned it. He carved out a name for himself.

He may not be that man anymore, but that reputation didn't just disappear either. That man is still there, waiting to be unleashed. If your country wants to war against Alethkar, you really don't want to put Dalinar in a position like that. I've said it before an I'll say it again, this is a mortal man who didn't hesitate when being told to kill the devil(Odium runs Damnation, he'd probably be the Vorin "devil"). A warlord with that level of conviction and one of the biggest armies on the planet is not someone you'd want as an enemy, and the other Rosharan world leaders know that.

Fear induced by the reputation of someone is a powerful tool. In our own history on Earth, cities and ships have surrendered without firing a shot because of it. If Dalinar had "taken the path of the warlord," I could see this happening quite a bit as time went on.

That's what I think Brandon meant by "depending on what era of their lives." Dalinar now isn't that man anymore, but back when he was? Out of him, Gavilar and Sadeas, I'd put Dalinar as the most bloodthirsty of the trio who conquered Alethkar(at least, before he got married). Conveniently, he's the most bloodthirsty again by virtue of being the only one of the three that's still alive, which is an entertaining thought about symmetry.