[OB] Questions about Dalinar's Visions

[Humpty he/him]

I would like some input from a few of you Sharders that have degrees in all things Sanderson if you dont mind.  Since Dalinar is now able to control his visions and glean even more information out of them than in previous books,  Could he not therefore interact with some of the radiants from them to gain all kinds of knowledge a little bit like time traveling? Something along the lines of,  I know this is going to sound crazy but I am from the distant future and I need information?  Or are we taking what he said in TWoK as gospel about getting the most information out of them by playing along.  I guess the main problem would be two-fold first getting the Radiants from the past to believe he wasn't just a mad man. Second would be how much can those earlier Radiants and Noahadon tell him? Are they limited in their conversations to specific topics or could they technically talk about anything?  Or are the visions like a coppermind from mistborn?  Any help would be appreciated..

[StormingTexan he/him]

Yeah no idea if this is even possible but if he could go back to the vision when he was Heb and take the female Radiant up on her offer to go to Urithiru and train then bam!! 

[Aleksiel]

I don't have a degree in all things Sanderson (I'd sign for any university that has this ), but here are my two spheres:

Dalinar will get more information, he can learn something different each time, although not necessarily always useful. I think Honor was more focused on showing events rather than giving a lecture, otherwise he would have used a different format. Dalinar isn't being teleported to the past, so there's no point in trying to persuade anyone he is from the future. However, the visions are insufferably ambiguous and lacking important pieces of information, so I think there's more to gain by figuring out why Honor showed those things while not even mentioning others.

[+Wax he/him]

Dalinar can’t interact with the visions.  He’s essentially re-running a simulation where he is zooming from different angles.  

But then that thunderclast vision contradicts it somewhat...

[Calderis he/him]

I strongly doubt he could do this. 

The visions are prerecorded scenarios intended to show specific interactions. The players within them are able to act within their role and respond accordingly, but if you were to try and leave the area of the scenario, or push them to act outside of the visions boundaries, it seems to me that the players within would either reject the actions and continue along their predetermined course, or the vision itself would break and end. 

[Humpty he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt he could do this. 

The visions are prerecorded scenarios intended to show specific interactions. The players within them are able to act within their role and respond accordingly, but if you were to try and leave the area of the scenario, or push them to act outside of the visions boundaries, it seems to me that the players within would either reject the actions and continue along their predetermined course, or the vision itself would break and end. 

Your probably right.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt he could do this. 

The visions are prerecorded scenarios intended to show specific interactions. The players within them are able to act within their role and respond accordingly, but if you were to try and leave the area of the scenario, or push them to act outside of the visions boundaries, it seems to me that the players within would either reject the actions and continue along their predetermined course, or the vision itself would break and end. 

What I would have said if I could have put it as succinctly. +1

[Subvisual Haze]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt he could do this. 

The visions are prerecorded scenarios intended to show specific interactions. The players within them are able to act within their role and respond accordingly, but if you were to try and leave the area of the scenario, or push them to act outside of the visions boundaries, it seems to me that the players within would either reject the actions and continue along their predetermined course, or the vision itself would break and end. 

Knight Radiant NPC: "[Player] please patrol and look for voidbringers"

Dalinar: "I would like to ask you questions about the year, our current location, the state of the world, and the nature of the inter-order Radiant strife."

Knight Radiant NPC: "[Player] please patrol and look for voidbringers"

[Blacksmithki]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Knight Radiant NPC: "[Player] please patrol and look for voidbringers"

Dalinar: "I would like to ask you questions about the year, our current location, the state of the world, and the nature of the inter-order Radiant strife."

Knight Radiant NPC: "[Player] please patrol and look for voidbringers"

I mean based on tWoK chapter (19?) "starfalls" it would appear the visions have at minimum a decent degree of variance and capacity to react to the receiver, so I feel like it is perfectly capable of answering his questions assuming he doesn't make them think he is insane, though they probably will so it's unlikely he will actually get information.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[The Invested Beard]

Think Star Trek holodeck with Cosmere mechanics.

[navahgar]

Yeah, but what he clearly should do for science is to preplan a series of letters, words, and sentences, and then say them outloud in the vision.  Navani can then record those and use them to fully translate the Dawnchant.  Surely this will have a major impact on the understanding of older texts.

He should also ask every person he interacts with for their name, the name of the location, and everything they know about the Radiants/Heralds.  Surely this would glean some solid information for them.  For example, we still don't know Nohadon/Bajerden's real name.  Ask him.

To not do this basic scientific research seems very negligent to me.  Even if Dalinar doesn't think of it, why hasn't Navani (the scholar) suggested it?  If Jasnah comes back and learns about what Dalinar can do, and doesn't suggest it, then the only explanation could be that the plot dictated that characters act stupidly.

[Salkara]

11 minutes ago, navahgar said:

To not do this basic scientific research seems very negligent to me.  Even if Dalinar doesn't think of it, why hasn't Navani (the scholar) suggested it?  If Jasnah comes back and learns about what Dalinar can do, and doesn't suggest it, then the only explanation could be that the plot dictated that characters act stupidly.

Or, you know, they had more pressing matters. Stopping the end of the world might take precedence over Nohadon's real name.

[navahgar]

Just now, Salkara said:

Or, you know, they had more pressing matters. Stopping the end of the world might take precedence over Nohadon's real name.

Nohadon's real name is a minor example.  Translating an entire lost language that dates from the time when the order you're trying to reestablish was active is much more important.  Also, a large part of the focus for Dalinar on his visions has been about learning from them.  Regaining lost knowledge is a classic fantasy book trope/dynamic.  I'm not criticizing that.  I'm just saying that Dalinar has a mechanism he can use to do that seemingly very effectively.  It may not be within his character makeup to think of that or do it, but surely it is within Navani, Jasnah, and/or Shallan's.  If they don't take advantage of that, I'd like to see at least some reason given.

[grinachu]

21 hours ago, Calderis said:

I strongly doubt he could do this. 

The visions are prerecorded scenarios intended to show specific interactions. The players within them are able to act within their role and respond accordingly, but if you were to try and leave the area of the scenario, or push them to act outside of the visions boundaries, it seems to me that the players within would either reject the actions and continue along their predetermined course, or the vision itself would break and end. 

I see the logic, but that doesn't seem to be the full picture. After all, it appears the individuals in the Heb scenario are able to react to Dalinar's behavior in a way that is responsive in real time, and very unlikely to have been mirrored by the real Heb (i.e., picking up a poker to fight Midnight Essence or having the extended conversation about coming to Urithiru for a place in one of the Orders.) 

Actually, the only individual in the visions who is unable to react to Dalinar is Honor/Tanavast.  So it seems Honor/Tanavast can permit Dalinar some form of limited time travel, maybe more than he intended. 

Edited October 12, 2017 by grinachu

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, grinachu said:

I see the logic, but that doesn't seem to be the full picture. After all, it appears the individuals in the Heb scenario are able to react to Dalinar's behavior in a way that is responsive in real time, and very unlikely to have been mirrored by the real Heb (i.e., picking up a poker to fight Midnight Essence or having the extended conversation about coming to Urithiru for a place in one of the Orders.) 

Actually, the only individual in the visions who is unable to react to Dalinar is Honor/Tanavast.  So it seems Honor/Tanavast can permit Dalinar some form of limited time travel, maybe more than he intended. 

I don't disagree with that at all. But there's a very bid difference between him picking up an improvised weapon and fighting, and him asking them to take pick him up and fly him to Urithiru. 

In the one vision we've seen him manipulate, the visible destruction of Kholinar was superficial. There were no bodies there, it was not meant to be viewed up close, just like the backdrop to a movie or video game. 

If he were to leave the confines of the area proscribed in the visions, there probably wouldn't be actors to interact with. I'd he asked questions about things he shouldn't know, he's going to be treated with distrust. If he outright explains what's happening he's going to be treated like he's crazy. 

He can find out much more than he could before, I don't doubt that. Actually quantam leap style body stealing time travel? I don't believe it for a second. 

The visions are fabrications based off presumably real events and the memories of Tanavast. The  actors within may be extremely realistic, and able to give information that even Tanavast wouldn't have intended. Getting that information from them in the limited time available during a vision is not likely though. 

[Subvisual Haze]

After the visions start repeating themselves for the 4th or 5th time I'm hopeful Dalinar will start taking his clothes off and throwing rocks at the other soliders just to see how they react.  Maybe try to make out with a knight radiant or repeatedly practice wrestling moves on Honor's avatar when it appears.  The possibilities are endless.

[Skyline]

Quote

“Ignore what I’m supposed to do, for the moment,” Dalinar said. “Can you do it? Can you transport me to those ruins?”

The Stormfather rumbled. He was a strange being, somehow connected to the dead god, but not exactly the same thing as the Almighty. At least today he wasn’t using a voice that rattled Dalinar’s bones.

In an eyeblink, Dalinar was transported. He no longer stood atop the cliff, but was on the plains down before the ruins of the city.

...

What do you expect to learn? the Stormfather said as Dalinar reached the rubble of the city. This vision was constructed to draw you to the ridge to speak with Honor. The rest is backdrop, a painting.

“Honor put this rubble here,” Dalinar said, waving toward the broken walls heaped before him. “Backdrop or not, his knowledge of the world and our enemy couldn’t help but affect the way he made this vision.”

From the very first chapter. He can manipulate what is there, but what's there is only what Honor thought to include for his purposes. 

[Humpty he/him]

I was thinking the people in the visions were kind of like Jor-el,  Superman's father at the fortess of solitude. 

[Justice]

I think this is a matter of assumptions. What an author chooses to include explicitly and to allude to implicitly or leave absent depends on their assumptions of their audience. This is reflected in the annotations of the WOK. What can an author expect of their audience? Tanavast/Honor is the Author of the visions and he must assume certain things of his audience. If the questions deviate far enough from the base assumptions of what the author thought the "reader", or seer, should know, the characters start to view the person as insane.

Therefore there is a lot of space for learning IF Dalinar is capable of walking the line twixt that which the author assumes is known and what Dalinar wishes to learn. This balance was struck with relative ease I must say in WOR, but could be taken advantage of much more in revisiting. The ultimate concern is, what does Dalinar know he doesn't know, and what does he not know he doesn't know. This is pretty ripe fruit for a talented author like BS.

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I've not seen anyone mention this before, but what worries me most about the visions is that Honor said that "most" of the visions were things he saw. So some didn't happen and were just things he feared would happen. I figure the Stormfather is the one making the adjustments to make up for Dalinar's deviations, but I don't think that makes that reliability of the narrator any better. The Stormfather has already shown that he isn't aware of things that happen inside and he has his own fears that are probably coloring the way he presents the visions. I just think we need to be careful with taking the visions as factual depictions of what actually happened. That is unless we know which visions are the ones that Honor actually witnessed as we see them.  

[Blacksmithki]

On October 14, 2017 at 2:16 AM, QuantumHarmonix said:

I've not seen anyone mention this before, but what worries me most about the visions is that Honor said that "most" of the visions were things he saw. So some didn't happen and were just things he feared would happen. I figure the Stormfather is the one making the adjustments to make up for Dalinar's deviations, but I don't think that makes that reliability of the narrator any better. The Stormfather has already shown that he isn't aware of things that happen inside and he has his own fears that are probably coloring the way he presents the visions. I just think we need to be careful with taking the visions as factual depictions of what actually happened. That is unless we know which visions are the ones that Honor actually witnessed as we see them.  

I don't have the book on hand, but based on your wording, the only one Honor didn't see happen was the prediction for the future. (Most were things he saw, but some were things he feared WOULD happen, implies he saw all but the predictive ones, obviously capitalization is mine)

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

4 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

I don't have the book on hand, but based on your wording, the only one Honor didn't see happen was the prediction for the future. (Most were things he saw, but some were things he feared WOULD happen, implies he saw all but the predictive ones, obviously capitalization is mine)

So the exact quote is 

Quote

 

“Most of what I show you are scenes I have seen directly,” the figure said. “But some, such as this one, are born out of my fears. If I fear it, then you should too.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 996). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

And typically I would interpret it exactly the way you say. I just have this little nagging voice that keeps telling me this would be a good way to misdirect us. Like we assume that we know how the Recreance occurred because we've seen the vision of the Knights abandoning their blades. But do we have a WoB that that scene is one that Honor saw directly or was it something that he feared would happen after his death? It just makes me cautious to rely on the visions too strongly.  As we can't really say how much of them are things as they really happened, how much were just things Honor feared would happen, and how much is the Stormfather filling in with his own assumptions when Dalinar goes off script. Which still isn't to say the information isn't useful. Honor and the Stormfather would know a lot of things that will be useful. It's just that they aren't impartial observers and may color and re-frame the events they show Dalinar. And I could see a very Star Wars like scene in the future where the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he didn't lie, that what he told was true, from a certain point of view.

[The Invested Beard]

10 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

So the exact quote is 

And typically I would interpret it exactly the way you say. I just have this little nagging voice that keeps telling me this would be a good way to misdirect us. Like we assume that we know how the Recreance occurred because we've seen the vision of the Knights abandoning their blades. But do we have a WoB that that scene is one that Honor saw directly or was it something that he feared would happen after his death? It just makes me cautious to rely on the visions too strongly.  As we can't really say how much of them are things as they really happened, how much were just things Honor feared would happen, and how much is the Stormfather filling in with his own assumptions when Dalinar goes off script. Which still isn't to say the information isn't useful. Honor and the Stormfather would know a lot of things that will be useful. It's just that they aren't impartial observers and may color and re-frame the events they show Dalinar. And I could see a very Star Wars like scene in the future where the Stormfather tells Dalinar that he didn't lie, that what he told was true, from a certain point of view.

We do have a WoB that says Honor didn't die until after the recreance so it's probably for sure that is a memory and not a fear.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

8 minutes ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

But do we have a WoB that that scene is one that Honor saw directly or was it something that he feared would happen after his death?

We have this:

Quote

QUESTION

Was Honor Shattered before or after the Recreance?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I believe after. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he has memories of the Recreance.

Also this:

Quote

WETLANDER

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

HOSER

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

There is a bit of wiggle room in there for Brandon but, overall, I think it is a safe bet that Honor was around for the Recreance.

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

52 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

There is a bit of wiggle room in there for Brandon but, overall, I think it is a safe bet that Honor was around for the Recreance.

Thanks for the WoB's. I do think its a pretty safe bet that everything up until the Recreance scene are things Honor either saw directly or was around to know specifics. It's just that bit of wiggle room that makes me think there is going to be some "fact" that is being put in a different light from the way things actually went down. I think it would be interesting to ask how far Dalinar has stretched the visions beyond what Honor intended and how much has the Stormfather filled in.