Jump to content

The listeners and spren


Rogueshar

Recommended Posts

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I have been wondering why the Parshendi and the listeners in their songs are a bit upset about the Spren choosing to bond with humans instead of listeners. Which got me thinking as to why the spren wouldn't have bonded with both. Now I know the listeners have their own spren- or the listener's gods have their own spren... I'm not entirely sure. Could that have something to do with it. Also the epithet of chapter 32 (The One Who Hates) of WoR it says "Our minds are too close to their realm/ that gives us our forms, but more is then/ Demanded by the smartest spren." I am assuming then that the Listeners are more aware of the Cognitive Realm than humans, but I would think that would make them better suited to be bonded as it would make transportation surge a bit easier as the Listeners are already aware of the Cognitive Realm. Thoughts or links to previous discussions on this topic are welcome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They already have a bond with Spren in order to function. Each form is a bond with a different type of spren. The Form bond they already have must not allow the Nahel Bond. It seems to be setting up for Eshonai to form a Nahel bond. It will be interesting to see how that happens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Rogueshar said:

Also the epithet of chapter 32 (The One Who Hates) of WoR it says "Our minds are too close to their realm/ that gives us our forms, but more is then/ Demanded by the smartest spren." I am assuming then that the Listeners are more aware of the Cognitive Realm than humans, but I would think that would make them better suited to be bonded

The Listeners are closer to the Cognitive Realm than humans are. The reason Nahel Spren don't like that is because Nahel Spren like to be pulled into the Physical Realm, and humans are much better anchors for that.

1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

They already have a bond with Spren in order to function. Each form is a bond with a different type of spren. The Form bond they already have must not allow the Nahel Bond. It seems to be setting up for Eshonai to form a Nahel bond. It will be interesting to see how that happens.

Have you considered the possibility of them having "Radiant-Form(s)"? IIRC, Parshendi are able to bond with any Spren, but only some have proper forms associated with them. The connection might be a little different than a normal KR bond, but the possibility doesn't seem that unthinkable

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Have you considered the possibility of them having "Radiant-Form(s)"? IIRC, Parshendi are able to bond with any Spren, but only some have proper forms associated with them. The connection might be a little different than a normal KR bond, but the possibility doesn't seem that unthinkable

Yeah, that's a possibility. How would they use their spren as a sword if it is part of them? I'm genuinely asking. Would they need to be bonded to another regular spren and have a Nahel bond? Would Eshonai need to be in dull form to accept a Nahel spren? Is that strange cometlike spren she sees circling her, pestering her, after she is in Stormform a Willshaper Spren? Dustbringer Spren? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:
  1. How would they use their spren as a sword if it is part of them? I'm genuinely asking.
  2. Would they need to be bonded to another regular spren and have a Nahel bond?
  3. Would Eshonai need to be in dull form to accept a Nahel spren?
  4. Is that strange cometlike spren she sees circling her, pestering her, after she is in Stormform a Willshaper Spren? Dustbringer Spren? 
  1. Historically, Parshendi Radiants haven't existed yet. That query is a bridge they'll have to cross in the future.
    • Personally, I'm not sure if they could. However, they don't necessarily have to either. Szeth exemplifies this during the battle against King Hanavanar, forgoing his Blade in favor of his Surgebinding. Lashing boulders would certainly distract a Thunderclast, and crush Voidform Parshendi.
  2. I do not believe they can be bonded to a normal Spren and a Nahel Spren. The normal bonded Spren prevents them a Voidspren from entering, so it stands to reason...
  3. Uncertain. Bonding a normal Spren in a Highstorm can be done regardless of starting form, as you eject that Spren to take in the new one. It's possible that the circumstances may be different for a Nahel Spren.
    • She may have to attract the Nahel Spren and speak the First Oath in order to bond in a Highstorm.
    • She may have to go to Slaveform(no Spren bond) after speaking the First Oath, and it bonds on its own somehow.
    • We just don't know.
  4. We don't know. All we know is that that Spren is related to one of the orders and is thus important.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, thejopen27 said:

Another legitimate question: what is the difference between Slaveform and Dullform? Is Dullform an empty spren bond and slaveform is a blocked spren bond?

Dullform is the result of bonding a spren that doesn't have a form associated with it. I've referred to it as a sort of Listener OS Safemode. 

Slaveform is the complete lack of a spren bond.

Dullform still has the rhythms, as seen with the Five. Slaveform does not, prompting the "where is their music?" from the Parshendi to the Alethi when they met the Parshmen. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the Nahel bond spren want the Experience for the One? 

I really don't know why Nahel Spren would bond Listeners beyond these type of stories have things happen in them that have never happened in world before.

ex. Everstorm, Heralds quitting, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Rogueshar said:

The original Spren that created the Nahel bonds didn't do so with the Parshendi because they are too close to the Cognitive Realms. If so why would they so so now? Desperation?

Desperation could be one reason. Another possibility could be that perhaps they glossed over the Parshendi as "too close" and never tried to bond before.

They could've been totally wrong but were unwilling to test it out in the olden days, and now this generation of Nahel Spren are more.. adventurous, exploratory..

Maybe none of the Listeners attracted a Nahel Spren in the olden days(as impossible as this seems), and the Listeners just made up the "too close" logic to justify it to themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Desperation could be one reason. Another possibility could be that perhaps they glossed over the Parshendi as "too close" and never tried to bond before.

They could've been totally wrong but were unwilling to test it out in the olden days, and now this generation of Nahel Spren are more.. adventurous, exploratory..

Maybe none of the Listeners attracted a Nahel Spren in the olden days(as impossible as this seems), and the Listeners just made up the "too close" logic to justify it to themselves.

Its possible that they never tried before and that the newer spren are willing to try. But the Listeners really seem to view this as a betrayal, and while the Listeners could have just expected the Spren to bond to them (just them or them and the humans I'm not sure) they seem really upset for it to have just been an expectation on their behalf. Also Syl is very adamant that a Pashendi would not be a Surgebinder:

Quote

"And what if one of them was a Surgebinder... [w]ith his own Honorspren?"
"Parshendi can't become Surgebin-"
This is from Chapter 44 One Form of Justice from WoR

I have a hard time believing that none of the Spren have ever tried to bond with  a Listener, it seems at least from this one quote (and albeit Syl's limited perspective) that perhaps it was attempted in the past and it couldn't be done. Maybe being too close to the Cognitive Realm makes it so they can't or maybe something is interfering. Not sure, but I believe that whatever the reason that prevents the spren from bonding to the Listeners, they view it as the spren's fault not their own and thus a betrayal. Or maybe the spren promised to bond with them also and then couldn't. I don't know I feel like I don't have enough details to fully flesh out an idea yet and am grasping at straws.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

Its possible that they never tried before and that the newer spren are willing to try. But the Listeners really seem to view this as a betrayal, and while the Listeners could have just expected the Spren to bond to them (just them or them and the humans I'm not sure) they seem really upset for it to have just been an expectation on their behalf. Also Syl is very adamant that a Pashendi would not be a Surgebinder:

I have a hard time believing that none of the Spren have ever tried to bond with  a Listener, it seems at least from this one quote (and albeit Syl's limited perspective) that perhaps it was attempted in the past and it couldn't be done. Maybe being too close to the Cognitive Realm makes it so they can't or maybe something is interfering. Not sure, but I believe that whatever the reason that prevents the spren from bonding to the Listeners, they view it as the spren's fault not their own and thus a betrayal. Or maybe the spren promised to bond with them also and then couldn't. I don't know I feel like I don't have enough details to fully flesh out an idea yet and am grasping at straws.

Just because it's believed they can't, even by the Spren doesn't make it true. 

People believe things without proof often. Spren are people. They aren't infallible. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Rogueshar said:

I have a hard time believing that none of the Spren have ever tried to bond with  a Listener, it seems at least from this one quote (and albeit Syl's limited perspective) that perhaps it was attempted in the past and it couldn't be done. Maybe being too close to the Cognitive Realm makes it so they can't or maybe something is interfering. Not sure, but I believe that whatever the reason that prevents the spren from bonding to the Listeners, they view it as the spren's fault not their own and thus a betrayal. Or maybe the spren promised to bond with them also and then couldn't. I don't know I feel like I don't have enough details to fully flesh out an idea yet and am grasping at straws.

"maybe something is interfering." You've just given me quite a few possibilities from this one snippet.

Perhaps the Nahel Spren tried, but could not succeed because the Listeners already bonded a Spren. Perhaps the Nahel Bond would be different than a normal Listener bond and the Nahel Spren tried the Listener way. Perhaps.. ooh, that's gonna take a bit of creative wording(I'll try to get back to you if I can come up with a way to put thoughts into words)

Suffice to say, if the Spren promised to bond and were unable to because of complications, but were unable to figure out why it didn't work, the Listeners might see that as them going back on their deal, but the Spren don't have the necessary understanding to explain that it isn't their fault. Does this make sense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

"maybe something is interfering." You've just given me quite a few possibilities from this one snippet.

Perhaps the Nahel Spren tried, but could not succeed because the Listeners already bonded a Spren. Perhaps the Nahel Bond would be different than a normal Listener bond and the Nahel Spren tried the Listener way. Perhaps.. ooh, that's gonna take a bit of creative wording(I'll try to get back to you if I can come up with a way to put thoughts into words)

Suffice to say, if the Spren promised to bond and were unable to because of complications, but were unable to figure out why it didn't work, the Listeners might see that as them going back on their deal, but the Spren don't have the necessary understanding to explain that it isn't their fault. Does this make sense?

Yes. It makes perfect sense and I could definitely see that as being the case. 

 

45 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Just because it's believed they can't, even by the Spren doesn't make it true. 

People believe things without proof often. Spren are people. They aren't infallible. 

I completely agree, I did say that this was coming from Syl's limited perspective. As far as I know Pattern hasn't said anything about Listeners and spren but I'll keep my eye out. But at the same time I have a hard time believing that the spren randomly never bonded with a Listener and then just determined it couldn't be done. I'm sure there are spren scientist or something who attempted to see if the Nalen bond could be formed with Listeners. But it is hard to go off what just one spren says, so I am not sure how accurate the information is. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Khriss refers to current Rosharan magic as an “expansion” of its pre-Shattering magic. I believe humans couldn’t bond pre-Shattering spren – because “Listeners are more aware of the Cognitive Realm than humans.”

I think the Chapter 32 Epigraph refers to Radiantspren when it says, “the smartest spren.” IMO, Cultivation’s power combines two pre-Shattering spren to make human-bondable Radiantspren. "Cultivation" to me connotes changing something for human use. Honor supplies the Nahel bond – formed by human promises (the oaths) to uphold ideals.

I suspect listeners don’t bond Radiantspren because of the oaths. Listener forms are communal, shared. Radiantspren seek individuals with specific temperaments. Eshonai the Explorer is unique among the listeners (AFAIK). She fits Willshaper temperament – “love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.”  

“Why now?” is an interesting question. Since Surgebinding is based on Honorblades, maybe Radiantspren can sense a new Desolation like Heralds can? They live in the Cognitive Realm - maybe Radiantspren can see Desolation coming before humans can? Maybe they come to warn humans? Or maybe Cultivation foresees a new Desolation and stirs Radiantspren to action? An interesting question…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Confused said:

Khriss refers to current Rosharan magic as an “expansion” of its pre-Shattering magic. I believe humans couldn’t bond pre-Shattering spren – because “Listeners are more aware of the Cognitive Realm than humans.”

I think the Chapter 32 Epigraph refers to Radiantspren when it says, “the smartest spren.” IMO, Cultivation’s power combines two pre-Shattering spren to make human-bondable Radiantspren. "Cultivation" to me connotes changing something for human use. Honor supplies the Nahel bond – formed by human promises (the oaths) to uphold ideals.

I suspect listeners don’t bond Radiantspren because of the oaths. Listener forms are communal, shared. Radiantspren seek individuals with specific temperaments. Eshonai the Explorer is unique among the listeners (AFAIK). She fits Willshaper temperament – “love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.”  

“Why now?” is an interesting question. Since Surgebinding is based on Honorblades, maybe Radiantspren can sense a new Desolation like Heralds can? They live in the Cognitive Realm - maybe Radiantspren can see Desolation coming before humans can? Maybe they come to warn humans? Or maybe Cultivation foresees a new Desolation and stirs Radiantspren to action? An interesting question…

I am not sure how the Listener's ability to be aware of the Cognitive Realm would prevent the Spren from bonding with humans. And spren didn't form Nahel bonds with humans pre-shattering as there was no Oathpact (as far as I can remember) pre-shattering that didn't come about till Honor arrived. I find it hard to believe that if the spren could form Nahel bond with the Listeners that there was absolutely none they could bond too. Eshonai can't be the first who had an adventerous spirit, even as a communal society they still have individual personalities. As to the last paragraph, the "why now" is referring to why the Radiantspren would suddenly start bonding to Listeners (potentially) not why did they come back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that pre-Recreance, all Parshendi were bonded with a form spren, preventing them from forming a Nahel bond. If only there were suddenly a group of parshmen with a newly awakened ability to bond spread without an existing bond...

Of course, this idea puts holes in the Eshonai-as-Willshaper theory, which is a favorite of mine. Suppose for a second, though, that Eshonai managed to contact Dalinar (or another Bondsmith) and beg to be freed of any spren bond. This would make her slaveform. Then the Everstorm swings through, restoring her Identity and Connection without a bond. Maybe this enables her to become a Willshaper? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Catladyman said:

Of course, this idea puts holes in the Eshonai-as-Willshaper theory, which is a favorite of mine. Suppose for a second, though, that Eshonai managed to contact Dalinar (or another Bondsmith) and beg to be freed of any spren bond. This would make her slaveform. Then the Everstorm swings through, restoring her Identity and Connection without a bond. Maybe this enables her to become a Willshaper? 

If Eshonai is so free willed to ask a Bondsmith to remove the Voidspren, I assume the Bondsmith could sever the Bond without damage her Soul.

Much more if also She will end in Slaveform, the Radiants has way to heal her without using the Everstorm (I will avoid to expose/connect people with Odium) and possible in the meanwhile gain some connection to her...this would help her to be' choosen by a Spren

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...