[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

22 minutes ago, Nebty said:

I think one of the big fears around a potential love triangle is that whoever is left is going to be negatively impacted (as is frequently the case in love triangles). But wouldn't it be great if everybody figured out their feelings, talked it out, and it was fine? No heartbreaking drama, no hissy-fits, just three really good friends deciding that, whatever happens, they're all going to stay friends.

Personally, I think that would be a pretty good twist on the love triangle trope.

This is what I think will be the outcome in the end. Kaladin&Adolin, Adolin&Shallan, and Shallan&Kaladin are being seeded as interesting and dynamic relationships. The Love Triangle trope handled wrong would destroy one or two of those relationships. I trust Brandon to handle it well so they all end as friends.

He really could go left field and create ShaKaldolin.  But this isn't erotica so most likely not.

[kari-no-sugata]

59 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

You guys make wonderful in-world related posts. I'd like to take a step back and view Shalladin for a moment from outline perspective. On one side we have the 'main female character, oblivious to her own appeal has both male leads fall for her' along with 'two characters that hated each other at first later fall in love' - both very tiresome tropes that have been done to death, does that fit Brandon's style?

This has occurred to me too. Brandon is aware of the frustrations fans have with love triangles so I'm think Brandon would also be well aware that this trope has been overused. Under that assumption, it seems more likely to me that he's subverting the trope rather than simply using it as is. But we'll obviously have to wait and see.

 

42 minutes ago, Nebty said:

As someone who really loves and appreciates Shallan as a character, I don't buy the argument from the perspective of 'Adolin's found The One and he's never going to find another', and therefore he somehow deserves Shallan more.

1) I just don't actually believe it, as mariapapadia eloquently argued. You say that there is no possible way Adolin would be able to deal with not being in a relationship with Shallan, and thus the story shouldn't go there. But I don't think you're giving him enough credit. He's an adult. They're all adults. And also the world is ending. No matter what happens with this nascent love triangle, I think they're all going to have bigger things to worry about.

2) Even if it is true, that's...kind of a him problem. It takes two to tango, y'know? You've done a lot of arguing for why Adolin needs Shallan, but Shallan's own desires are a big part of if this whole relationship thing is going to work or not.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. All of them are cute. I love all three. I want them all to be happy and safe and healthy. But I hate it when discussions like this devolve into arguing about which of two points of the love triangle deserves the third, when a relationship is inevitably going to require consent from both parties. And the argument that one person needs another for some kind of self-actualization particularly puts me off. It smacks of obsession, something that has impacted Shallan in a very personal, very traumatic way. I don't think that's the kind of person Adolin is.

I would say that the argument that @maxal is making is really "for Adolin's character arc to have a fulfilling conclusion then he would need to have a successful romantic relationship and that achieving that seems improbable without Shallan". Given how often it's been pointed out that Adolin has had a huge number of failed relationships, it's clearly a major aspect of his character. Of course, there's no guarantee that he will actually get a fulfilling conclusion - like with any character.

Speaking as a Shallan fan, I would say that so far it's Shallan herself who has been solving her inner problems, with some significant help/prompting from Pattern, and I think it's more likely that this will continue. I do feel that Adolin is helping her with her lack of self-confidence, though Shallan following what she understood of Jasnah's advice also helped. Overall I would say that Adolin is more likely to help Shallan as he accepts her as she is and being with him gives her peace of mind and contentment. So while I don't think Shallan "needs" Adolin to progress as a character I do think she'll get there faster with him (so far at least).

[Nebty]

37 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I agree. I would like that. I don‘t think it is realistic right now, but we‘ll see where it goes.

Oh for sure. I think there's going to be some conflict on the way there - especially since it seems obvious that both Kaladin and Shallan have some kind of feelings for each other, but as of right now they're both trying to convince themselves they don't. However I don't think there's going to be any burned bridges over this (er, so to speak). There's other things going on that are just too important.

 

8 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I would say that the argument that @maxal is making is really "for Adolin's character arc to have a fulfilling conclusion then he would need to have a successful romantic relationship and that achieving that seems improbable without Shallan". Given how often it's been pointed out that Adolin has had a huge number of failed relationships, it's clearly a major aspect of his character. Of course, there's no guarantee that he will actually get a fulfilling conclusion - like with any character.

Again, though, I hate that kind of argument. It implies that the most fulfilling and self-actualizing thing Adolin can do is get the right girlfriend. But a girlfriend's not going to solve the underlying reasons for why he sabotages his own relationships. You can't rely on other people to solve your problems for you. Even if your girlfriend's the most wonderful, perfect person in the world. I can imagine a fulfilling character arc for Adolin in which him and Shallan break up and stay friends, but where he also manages to improve himself and become a happier, healthier person. I can imagine it for all of them. Because they are not their relationships - they're well-rounded characters who have their own rich inner lives and their own problems that they're going to have to deal with.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nebty

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Speaking as a Shallan fan, I would say that so far it's Shallan herself who has been solving her inner problems, with some significant help/prompting from Pattern, and I think it's more likely that this will continue. I do feel that Adolin is helping her with her lack of self-confidence, though Shallan following what she understood of Jasnah's advice also helped. Overall I would say that Adolin is more likely to help Shallan as he accepts her as she is and being with him gives her peace of mind and contentment. So while I don't think Shallan "needs" Adolin to progress as a character I do think she'll get there faster with him (so far at least).

I have to agree and disagree here. I agree that Shallan has been solving her problems so far. I mean, she has to be the one to solve her problems for herself. There is no one who can solve them for her, but others can help her.

I disagree that Shallans Problem is lack of confidence in herself. And I remain with me saying, that right now Adolin is actually making it harder for her to solve her problem with the Patternblade. I argued why on the previous page. And also why I think, that Kaladin is the person, she needs to consult with in that matter.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

3 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

The thing with a character like Adolin, that didn't have that much screen time compared with the others ,is that we don't know about all his inner turmoil. It's a bit left to the imagination and it's perfectly plausible for people to read him differently or get a different vibe from him. While a lot of the things said about his character could be written off as facts or truths, there is a lot left for speculation. There are  situations where a POV from Adolin could have clarified some things. You asked me what would make me belive Adolin loves Shallan. A POV where I can understand more how he sees her, what he finds so special about her, what drives him to make it work with her out of all girls. I am not denying Shallan is special for him, I never denied that, but I have reservations that she is "the only one" because so far I haven't seen (maybe I forgot something) her through his eyes.

I know we don't have as many POVs of Adolin, but we do have some.  I actually looked through them all since he met Shallan, and I see very little support for the idea that Adolin is in love with or obsessed with Shallan such that he would perceive her as "the one".  Of course, he could be and not telling us in the those POVs, but I think the fact we DO see him think things, and they aren't about the fact he's in love/obsessed with Shalln, means that the author isn't explicitly trying to make this point.  Please let me know if I missed any of these:

• WOR Ch. 37, Matter of Perspective: First time he sees Shalln; he thinks she's hot when she walks by.
• WOR Ch. 50, Uncut Gems: Immediately after wine/highstorm date.  Most of this is about Sadeas and brooding on that.  He thinks about Shallan, mentioning she is marvelous, exotic, witty, not smothered in Alethi propriety, smart and doesn't make him feel stupid.
• WOR Ch. 51, Heirs: Eshonai meeting, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 53, Perfection: Elit duel and aftermath, this is the only time I found where we see a Shallan/Adolin interaction from Adolin's perspective, he thinks he's not unhappy to see her and that their relationship is awkward due to not knowing where they stand.
• WOR Ch. 56, Whitespine Uncaged: Four on one duel, burns Shallan's glyph and tells Navani she is quite marvelous. 
• WOR Ch. 81, The Last Day: Start of Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 82, For Glory Lit: Battle of Narak, mentions Shallan as telling him rock formations are building.
• WOR Ch. 83, Time's Illusion: Battle of Narak, tells Skar Shallan is a clever woman.
• WOR Ch. 84, The One Who Saves: Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 85, Swallowed by the Sky: Szeth meeting/fight, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 89, The Four: Killing Sadeas, notes Shallan may be the most important woman in the world because she is a Radiant and wonders how he fits in.
• OB, Ch. 2, One Problem Solved: Wandering Urithiru, no mention of Shallan.
• OB, Ch. 10, Distractions: Introspection with Gallant, no mention of Shallan.

I feel like I need to emphasize so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'm not saying AT ALL that Adolin doesn't like Shallan in a romantic sense.  That seems pretty clear.  I'm just saying that from the text it's very much a matter of personal interpretation (and to me, a bit of a stretch) to say he is in love with her and she is to him "the one".

Edited October 1, 2017 by Dreamstorm
Found additional Shallan mention

[Nebty]

2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

You guys make wonderful in-world related posts. I'd like to take a step back and view Shalladin for a moment from outline perspective. On one side we have the 'main female character, oblivious to her own appeal has both male leads fall for her' along with 'two characters that hated each other at first later fall in love' - both very tiresome tropes that have been done to death, does that fit Brandon's style?

 

33 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

This has occurred to me too. Brandon is aware of the frustrations fans have with love triangles so I'm think Brandon would also be well aware that this trope has been overused. Under that assumption, it seems more likely to me that he's subverting the trope rather than simply using it as is. But we'll obviously have to wait and see.

 

Hmmm, I dislike the meta arguments because they ignore context.

These aren't, 'main female character who is betrothed to extroverted prince but also attracted to broody self-made man'. They're Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin, who are more than the sum of their tropes. Ultimately I don't really know what to do with meta arguments against either pairing because...I mean do you think these characters are cliche? I don't. I think their interactions with each other are funny, relatable, and often moving. The argument falls down before it gets out of the gate. Sure they're informed by tropes, but so is a lot of Sanderson's writing. It's what he does with those tropes that matters.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nebty

[Aleksiel]

2 minutes ago, Nebty said:

 

Hmmm, I dislike the meta arguments because they ignore context.

These aren't, 'main female character who is betrothed to extroverted prince but also attracted to broody self-made man'. They're Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin, who are more than the sum of their tropes. Ultimately I don't really know what to do with meta arguments against either pairing because...I mean do you think these characters are cliche? I don't. I think their interactions with each other are funny, relatable, and often moving. The argument falls down before it gets out of the gate. Sure they're informed by tropes, but so is a lot of Sanderson's writing. It's what he does with those tropes that matters.

The characters aren't cliche, but the road to Shalladin is. I won't be shamed into liking.

[mariapapadia she/her]

5 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I know we don't have as many POVs of Adolin, but we do have some.  I actually looked through them all since he met Shallan, and I see very little support for the idea that Adolin is in love with or obsessed with Shallan such that he would perceive her as "the one".  Of course, he could be and not telling us in the those POVs, but I think the fact we DO see him think things, and they aren't about the fact he's in love/obsessed with Shalln, means that the author isn't explicitly trying to make this point.  Please let me know if I missed any of these:

• WOR Ch. 37, Matter of Perspective: First time he sees Shalln; he thinks she's hot when she walks by.
• WOR Ch. 50, Uncut Gems: Immediately after wine/highstorm date.  Most of this is out Sadeas and brooding on that.  He thinks about Shallan, mentioning she is marvelous, exotic, witty, not smothered in Alethi propriety, smart and doesn't make him feel stupid.
• WOR Ch. 51, Heirs: Eshonai meeting, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 53, Perfection: Elit duel and aftermath, this is the only time I found where we see a Shallan/Adolin interaction from Adolin's perspective, he thinks he's not unhappy to see her and that their relationship is awkward due to not knowing where they stand.
• WOR Ch. 56, Whitespine Uncaged: Four on one duel, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 81, The Last Day: Start of Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 82, For Glory Lit: Battle of Narak, mentions Shallan as telling him rock formations are building.
• WOR Ch. 83, Time's Illusion: Battle of Narak, tells Skar Shallan is a clever woman.
• WOR Ch. 84, The One Who Saves: Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 85, Swallowed by the Sky: Szeth meeting/fight, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 89, The Four: Killing Sadeas, notes Shallan may be the most important woman in the world because she is a Radiant and wonders how he fits in.
• OB, Ch. 2, One Problem Solved: Wandering Urithiru, no mention of Shallan.
• OB, Ch. 10, Distractions: Introspection with Gallant, no mention of Shallan.
•  

I feel like I need to emphasize so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'm not saying AT ALL that Adolin doesn't like Shallan in a romantic sense.  That seems pretty clear.  I'm just saying that from the text it's very much a matter of personal interpretation (and to me, a bit of a stretch) to say he is in love with her and she is to him "the one".

Thank you for these ! I will pay some extra attention when I get to them. Right now, I'm still half way through WoK , since I joined the Shard the re-reading is going incredibly slow, as I am hyperaware of everything that moves in a scene 

[Nebty]

6 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

The characters aren't cliche, but the road to Shalladin is. I won't be shamed into liking.

You don't have to like it? I mean, I guess it's all a matter of taste but I just find the meta arguments really unconvincing. You can boil down nearly anything into tropes. That doesn't rob stories of their power. For example, for me, the chasm scene was one of the most powerful moments in Words of Radiance because of how emotional it was, and how well it had been set up. You've spent so much time with these characters, and you understand them so well, that you realize how much it means for them to share their innermost pain with someone else. If that counts as a 'Shalladin' moment then I want more! I don't really care if they go down a romantic path or not, same for Shallan and Adolin. I just really enjoy reading about these characters.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nebty

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, Nebty said:

You don't have to like it? I mean, I guess it's all a matter of taste but I just find the meta arguments really unconvincing. You can boil down nearly anything into tropes. That doesn't rob stories of their power. For example, for me, the chasm scene was one of the most powerful moments in Words of Radiance because of how emotional it was, and how well it had been set up. You've spent so much time with these characters, and you understand them so well, that you realize how much it means for them to share their innermost pains with someone else. If that counts as a 'Shalladin' moment then I want more! I don't really care if they go down a romantic path or not, same for Shallan and Adolin. I just really enjoy reading about these characters.

I don't want the same thing rehashed over and over again in numerous books. I like Brandon because he is different, he manages to surprise me more often than not, I will be really underwhelmed if not outright disappointed to have this played out as if it's an average YA. I want something I haven't read before, not simply a version of an overly used trope, no matter how it's written. You don't have to like that either, I am sharing my opinion just like everyone else here. We can't have a discussion if we all agree.

[Guest]

And it is your right. No one wants to take it from you, but you can‘t expect no one to react to your opinion if you put it out.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

I never said anything about not reacting to it, that would defeat the purpose of sharing it.

[Nebty]

23 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I don't want the same thing rehashed over and over again in numerous books. I like Brandon because he is different, he manages to surprise me more often than not, I will be really underwhelmed if not outright disappointed to have this played out as if it's an average YA. I want something I haven't read before, not simply a version of an overly used trope, no matter how it's written. You don't have to like that either, I am sharing my opinion just like everyone else here. We can't have a discussion if we all agree.

I'm not trying to attack your opinion, I guess I'm just expressing confusion as to how, if Kaladin and Shallan got into a relationship, it would be 'played out as if it's an average YA'. I mean, if you wanted to go unexpected for unexpected's sake then Shallan and Adolin wouldn't exactly be breaking new ground either.

I guess my fundamental disconnect with the meta argument is that I just don't see what's so distastefully cliche about any of the interactions the characters have had so far. It all fits very well within the context of the book. And if it's been well-written up to this point, then I don't really think that will change in the future, whichever direction Brandon decides to go in.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nebty

[Aleksiel]

12 minutes ago, Nebty said:

I'm not trying to attack your opinion, I guess I'm just expressing confusion as to how, if Kaladin and Shallan got into a relationship, it would be 'played out as if it's an average YA'. I mean, if you wanted to go unexpected for unexpected's sake then Shallan and Adolin wouldn't exactly be breaking new ground either.

I guess my fundamental disconnect with the meta argument is that I just don't see what's so distastefully cliche about any of the interactions the characters have had so far. It all fits very well within the context of the book. And if it's been well-written up to this point, then I don't really think that will change in the future.

I'm not advocating for Shallan to merry Adolin either, I think it would be far more interesting if she went her own way, may be as a worldhopper.

I guess it boils down to perspectives - people with in-world arguments don't find meta ones convincing and vice versa. 

 

Edit: By this I am not saying outline should take precedent over in-world consistency, but that we can have both - avoid a tiresome trope in a believable manner.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Aleksiel
clarification

[Nebty]

10 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I'm not advocating for Shallan to merry Adolin either, I think it would be far more interesting if she went her own way, may be as a worldhopper.

I guess it boils down to perspectives - people with in-world arguments don't find meta ones convincing and vice versa. 

 

Edit: By this I am not saying outline should take precedent over in-world consistency, but that we can have both - avoid a tiresome trope in a believable manner.

I feel that. But what makes a 'tiresome trope' is also subjective. You can say, "I hate chosen one narratives, they're everywhere. I don't want to read any more of them in any context." But you've got another person who loves them and seeks them out. And a third person who isn't usually a fan, but makes an exception when they find one that's a particularly well-written example. Something that's cliche to one person isn't necessarily cliche to everyone.

[Aleksiel]

9 minutes ago, Nebty said:

I feel that. But what makes a 'tiresome trope' is also subjective. You can say, "I hate chosen one narratives, they're everywhere. I don't want to read any more of them in any context." But you've got another person who loves them and seeks them out. And a third person who isn't usually a fan, but makes an exception when they find one that's a particularly well-written example. Something that's cliche to one person isn't necessarily cliche to everyone.

That's true, I won't argue against it. Romance novels are full of what I described, just like the hero's journey is prevalent in fantasy, people read what they like. 

All I'm saying there are many interesting places this path could lead us. Though what's interesting also depends on the reader. (Kadolin )

I want to be surprised, there are so many possibilities - Kaladin and Tarah for example. I think it would be a shame if none of those gets explored.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

Ok! Let's go at this again. First thank you for replying in such a structured way @maxal, it helped me clarify more in my head what I wanted to say. My last post wasn't as objective as I would've wanted to so I feel the need to clarify some things. 

Your welcome.

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

First thing I want to say is that a while ago you told me in a response to something I commented that you've never  opened a thread where you would disscus Adolin, but you only commented/defended him on others. I think that was a mistake ? Why ? Because it's clear you have an extended understanding of Adolin, which I agree with most of the time. Some of the points you made about him really put some things into perspective for me, when it comes to his character. I don't think is anyone on this forum who doesn't consider you the "Adolin expert". But what I feel it's a problem is that ,as you guys talked about yesterday, most of the new people don't know his full story, don't have this broad image of him, they would stumble onto a thread with a totally "innocent" topic, that would turn into an Adolin ode. Because every thread I encountered so far about characters or character's development ends in an Adolin characterization essay/ comparation  and I feel like that puts a lot of people off. The thing is, most of the time the same arguments are made, there is only so much one can bring new to the table after so many disscusions. So I feel like, having a thread that would've gather all the analisys and the possible directions of his character, the stuggle the Adolin fans had to go through, would have help. It's easy to direct and introduce someone to a specific thread, instead of having people stumble upon different parts of those analisys and derail the main idea. My personal impression is that every time there is a debate, instead of disscusing the topic at hand, we go back to Adolin characterization 1.01. For me that affected the way I see his character, because sometimes I feel there is so much controversy and drama whenever he is brough up, that I just want to skip everything. And lately this is what I have been doing, but now when I am rereading the books or reading the new chapters it's like I hear everyone in my head screaming and contradicting and to be honest I get tired of it. I realise it's not my place to say to anyone where to post what and how to do it, but it was just a friendly input. As someone who is relatively new to the forum I would've like to have a thread like that. Of course everyone can skip the parts they don't want to read, but in the context of a bigger thread it becomes really messy.

I will not start a thread having for purpose to discuss Adolin's character for the mere reason I would be hijacking the conversation if I were to do so. As it is, I am pleased to answer people's questions, to comment on other people's questions or speculations. There is also the fact I can't summarize four years worth of conversations into one single thread: this is a daunting task and I may have forgotten a lot. It is why I often invite people to read the old threads and see how the opinions have evolved since WoR's release.

For myself, I can only take in other people's arguments, arguments which often used to be mine, and try to use the line of reasoning which got me to my actual arguments. Some people have bought into it, some people haven't. On average, I think people put way too much importance over what I think: I am just a reader. I love Adolin's character. I write those posts as a hobby, I have fun writing them. Not all are good, some are rather crappy, some are amazing, when I get a good idea and narrative structure to phrase it, but in the end they remain essays. People are free to disagree with them, but people cannot expect I will agree with every single counter argument.

I can't help it if people find it tiresome or needlessly long or, worst, if they hate my perspective so much it is hindering their appreciation of the character I love the most. My advise is to take a step back, read the argumentation and see which part sinks in and which part doesn't. I never forced anyone to take in my side of things, though my side of things came to fruition after many years of in-depth conversations. I can say every single I claim to be is right, but I do think I am right over quite a few things. The best post ever, within this fandom was this one:

Quote

 

If you think at all, you think you’re right. It’s inherent in the process.

I always think I’m right — but that doesn’t mean I think I’m always right.

 

This summarizes it all. Of course, I think I am right, but it doesn't mean I think I am always right. People put way too much importance over my personal thoughts within those discussions. Your post is well structured, very polite and not offensive at all, but I sincerely wonder why there is this need to revert the discussion and to question why I am even posting my thoughts into the appropriate threads. This thread has been very appropriate for all thoughts I have posted and the historical context I gave, I only did so because others asked about it. 

2 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come the wrong way, I still like Adolin, but I am a bit dissapointed that in a way I feel he can't surpise me anymore. It's like all the posibilities have been covered and I just have to wait and see which one will happen. 

On the opposite, the fact there are so many discussions and so many conflicting opinions makes it impossible to figure out where Adolin is going as a character. I find it fascinating and this unpredictability has generated all of those conversations. There is a reason why people discuss more Adolin than Kaladin when Kaladin is more popular: this is because we have a good idea where Kaladin is going, not Adolin.

Not all possibilities were covered. We never predicted the copycat murdering thread. Not many of us predicted Adolin would hide it so well. We knew he has the habits of pretending to always be strong, to refuse to break, to refuse to show weaknesses, but many of us thought the murder would be too much for him. Turns out we were wrong, myself included.

2 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

The thing with a character like Adolin, that didn't have that much screen time compared with the others ,is that we don't know about all his inner turmoil. It's a bit left to the imagination and it's perfectly plausible for people to read him differently or get a different vibe from him. While a lot of the things said about his character could be written off as facts or truths, there is a lot left for speculation. There are  situations where a POV from Adolin could have clarified some things. You asked me what would make me belive Adolin loves Shallan. A POV where I can understand more how he sees her, what he finds so special about her, what drives him to make it work with her out of all girls. I am not denying Shallan is special for him, I never denied that, but I have reservations that she is "the only one" because so far I haven't seen (maybe I forgot something) her through his eyes.

A lot of Adolin's character passes through how other characters view him and within the contrast in between their perspective and his inner POV. Many readers only care about the third person's perspective saying if Dalinar/Kaladin/Shalla thinks it, then it must be true, but not many have made the work of correlating those with Adolin's own thoughts nor have highlighted the conflict brewing into them. I have been doing this and while I cannot say I am right about everything, I feel it offers a stronger and better perspective onto the character. 

And yes, having Adolin's POV whenever he is with Shallan would be beneficial, but Brandon has always worked with third person's perspective with Adolin's character. He has carefully worked with how in-world characters view him, how readers view him to make him unpredictable and interesting. So while I suspect we will eventually get Adolin's viewpoint when it comes to Shallan, it will not happen before we are left wondering where he stands.

3 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

I am not against Shadolin, as I said I think they had some genuinely nice moments together and I am sure they could work in the future. But before that I am expecting to see, and not be told, why is she the only girl Adolin can work with and not someone else. I need a POV from Adolin that shows he wants to make it work because it's Shallan, not because he needs to prove himself he can make a relationship work. What would've happen if the story didn't brought Shallan to Adolin ? As you pointed out he already dated every eligible girl in Alethkar. Does that mean he would've been doomed forever when it comes to love? I don't think so. Maybe I am a cynic, but I don't belive in "the one". Especially in the context of a book where the author can make everything seem believeable. You said at one point that you don't need Adolin to become a Radiant, but you need to see why he can't become a Radiant. It's a bit like that for me. I need to see why Shallan is the only one Adolin can work with and in the case Shallan ends with Kaladin, I need to see why is she the perfect fit for him and not for Adolin ( I know you don't think she's in any way, shape of form special or fit for Kaladin, but let's agree to disagree). 

@kari-no-sugata summarized well within a future post. The scope of Adolin's failure is gigantic. He has been at the core of his character development. While it is true it needs not be broached, he needs not to grow, I firmly believe it makes a better, stronger story if he does. Shallan has been the only girl, among the numerous ones he has dated, where he has been able to commit. At this point in time, if people do not see it, do not see how Shallan is different, at least as far as Adolin is concerned, then there isn't much I can argue with. I feel the narrative has pointed out in a rather obvious way how Shallan is not the same as other girls to Adolin: Dalinar even comments on it within his POV. 

Could another girl be different to him in ways which will push him out of his comfort zone? Nothing is impossible, technically, but we have to be realistic with the narrative we have. Are we really going to buy, as readers, that Adolin fails 60 relationships, finds one he actually wants to work to keep, then it fails again, but OH here another girl and it is perfect. I mean, is this even realistic? Now I understand people are trying to find ways for Kaladin/Shallan to exist while not spurning Adolin's character, but the current narrative hasn't been built around Adolin having the possibility to find "love" with the slap of his fingers. What I find unbelievable is the idea Adolin, after being presented as unable to form relationships, unable to commit, after having read him trying to make it work with Shallan only to see it fail and OH it works with someone else because "reasons".

Thus to me, while realistically Adolin may, one day, perhaps in 2, 3, 5, 10 years, find another woman he is able to be himself with, he is able to commit, he is able open-up, I do not find it plausible within the narrative. Books aren't real-life. When authors spend as much time describing a character having relationship issues, only to give him one relationship which may potentially work, it is complete betrayal to do a 180 and present another suitable girl, out of the hat just because it solves the meta narrative needing Kaladin to be with Shallan.

I also think the story has already told Shallan was the one for Adolin: he screwed up every single relationship but this one. What more can we possibly need to get the sense she is "special" to him? We saw him dating other girls, we saw how he behaves and then we see him with Shallan: it is different. This is one argument I do not get: apart from spelling it in bright letters, I do not know what more Brandon could do to make it more obvious.

3 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

HIs character is not only written around the imposibility of forming romantic relationships, but as you pointed out meaningful friendships too.  Why do you think is that? It got me thinking if it's because of Dalinar or something that happened in his chilhood. You argue that Shallan is the one that could help him overcome this. I disagree. His problems have deeper roots than that and succeding with Shallan will only treat a symptom of the problem, not the cause. This is why I think Shallan being a milestone he crosses won't solve anything. If he and Shallan are to have a real , healthy relationship he needs to face and resolve his problems before. It's the same situation as it is with Kaladin. Being with her won't cure his depression, it can ameliorate his symptoms, but in the end it won't fix him. Shallan is not here to fix Adolin or Kaladin  and they are not here to fix her. Their connections can do some good for everyone, but at the end of the day everyone has to dig deeper to fix themselves. Kaladin/Adolin (not in a romantic way ) can also help both characters, this is why I like the premise of this so called "love triangle". All of them will have strong connections I belive and that makes it an interesting read. I head Brandon say in a lecture that a way to create conflict in a love triangle is to have both love interests as equally desirable. This is why I belive both have a strong, real chance at a love story with her. 

Because a lot of emphasis has been put in Adolin falling at relationships. His entire character arc has revolved around this in WoR. His inner monologue speaks at lengths of his issues. 

What Adolin needs is someone able to love him as he is without pressuring him into being someone he is not. This implies, not Dalinar. Shallan can help because she is the only character, within the book so far, who currently has the possibility of accepting Adolin, the real Adolin. Having someone who accepts him, who loves him, just as he is, precisely may be the thing he needs to finally succeed. Sure, for this to happen he will need to work it out, but without anyone accepting those new truths, I fear the only ending Adolin will get will be bittersweet or the evil road so many readers are found of.

3 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

OOut of all people you should know this best. That Adolin isn't Dalinar. This "love triangle" doesn't resemble the Navani-Dalinar-Gaviliar. As far as we can see, Adolin at his age is a much greater person than Dalinar was. 

As far as Adolin not having enough time to have another love interest introduced because he doesn't have many POV, I think it depends on where his arc story goes. If he is to revive his blade or become a Radiant or anything along those lines, his POVs will definetly expand, so we could see a satisfying story. I don't want you to get this the wrong way, but sometimes I get the feeling you don't want to accept any other vision for Adolin than your own. You conceded some points here and there, but when we find out that Adolin could become a highprince it was like everything else was doomed for him. We are only 10% into the book, maybe not even that and it surprised me how easy you got to that conclusion. Personally I don't want to think more about what will happen with Adolin, Shallan or any of the other characters. I want to be surprised by them and the story. So I will detach myself until we know more. When you are too invested or too close to a topic it's a bit difficult to be objective. 

I honestly hope you won't take my posts about Adolin the wrong way or as an attack. I really like his character and I am excited to see him find love and grow and be happy however Brandon will choose fit for his character. But I think some balance was needed in regards to what you said about him and Kaladin in these last few posts.

Adolin is not Dalinar and at the same time, he is his son. He does have a few things in common with his father. This has nothing to do with the Navani-Gavilar-Dalinar triangle, this has to do with Adolin losing the only girl he ever wanted to keep.

This is where it is interesting to read the older posts. Anyone having been here long enough know how many times I have changed my minds on a great many things. The speculative theories I have now are COMPLETELY different then the ones I had a few years ago. I constantly re-evaluate them based on new information and nothing so far has given me reason to revise this specific one.

I don't like the Highprince plot because I find it restrictive, I find it removes Adolin from places to grow. It puts him into a position where I see little growth for him to have. For the rest, I could also turn back the argument to anyone else: other people too will not accept any other vision then their own. Of course they won't! Their vision comes after long discussions with themselves, after weighting down clues, hints and impressions: they aren't going to change them just because someone disagrees or does not see things the same way.

All I can do is explained how I see things. If other people do not see it the same way as I do, then there isn't much I can do. I make those posts because I know there are people who will enjoy them and who will think I have an argument or will buy into it. Not many like the meta-narrative argument: I find it important because there are things Brandon is realistically not going to write and Adolin running away in the world, having adventures on his own while courting a new "more suitable girl" is honestly not highly likely to happen. Why? Because it doesn't fit within the story Brandon wants to tell.

@Dreamstorm: Both Dalinar and Kaladin notes Adolin looks smitten with Shallan. We do not always need an in-world viewpoint to figure things out. We do not need Adolin to say: "I love Shallan" though I would argue this is basically what he told Kaladin when he asks for advice. My take is if Dalinar notices it, then it must be pretty obvious because Dalinar never pays attention to Adolin, in a general manner. To me, it is pretty obvious Adolin is in-love, the behavior, the gesture, the blushing, everything just highlights it. I do not need Adolin to make a confession to believe it.

[mariapapadia she/her]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

Because this goes outside the scope of the book. Adolin doesn't have the luxury of having enough viewpoints to make his relationship with "someone else" believable and workable. He has failed too often for him to succeed without a story arc, without Brandon needing to give time to this particular story to grow, plausibly. It just won't happen within 4 or 5 paragraphs. You can't just have the one character you have persistently described as being unable to make relationship works suddenly succeeds unless you dedicate a great lot of time to it. Brandon just doesn't have the page time for this just with Adolin's viewpoints as this new character probably won't have any and if he does this. If he does then SA becomes a love story, Adolin's story becomes one solely based on his love life. Now we already established nobody wants this including myself. 

I thus do not buy the argument "Adolin can just succeed with another yet to be introduced girl from a foreign nation" nor do I buy the argument his character does not need it. This is why I think it impossible, because it just does not fit within the narrative we had. 

Also, I never said this is the strongest nor the only reason why I prefer this ship. People got carried away from my one comment. There are many reasons to support this ship.

I know this isn't the best moment to make this argument as it will look like I am advocating for Adolin to find another girl, just to find resolution without Shallan. But please don't see it that way. Re-reading this part I just remembered a thought that I had when I re-read WoR for the first time. It might be a bit crazy, but I would like to hear your opinion on this. 

What about Eshonai ? I don't know if we have any WoB whether she's alive or dead, but I have a feeling she is alive. Anyway, I belive she's not dead and we'll see more of her in the future. I know a lot of work would have to be done for something like this to happen, but wouldn't you find the perspective of that interesing to read? "The good, exiled prince" and "the parshendi warrior that has been transform and it fight with an evil force that controls her" ?  It alignes with the need for a more developed storyline when it comes to Adolin's romance. I never wanted to imply that we should get resolution for his love problem in a few paragraphs, but I am under the impressions that is his story arc will follow the exile, the becoming a Radiant or other posibilities like that we will see more of him and interacting with other characters. 

I don't know, it was just a though, that I hope it won't be read as "let's just find another girl that's not Shallan", but "what other special girls are in this universe that could have an interesting relation with Adolin" ?

[kari-no-sugata]

51 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I know we don't have as many POVs of Adolin, but we do have some.  I actually looked through them all since he met Shallan, and I see very little support for the idea that Adolin is in love with or obsessed with Shallan such that he would perceive her as "the one".  Of course, he could be and not telling us in the those POVs, but I think the fact we DO see him think things, and they aren't about the fact he's in love/obsessed with Shalln, means that the author isn't explicitly trying to make this point.  Please let me know if I missed any of these:

• WOR Ch. 37, Matter of Perspective: First time he sees Shalln; he thinks she's hot when she walks by.
• WOR Ch. 50, Uncut Gems: Immediately after wine/highstorm date.  Most of this is about Sadeas and brooding on that.  He thinks about Shallan, mentioning she is marvelous, exotic, witty, not smothered in Alethi propriety, smart and doesn't make him feel stupid.
• WOR Ch. 51, Heirs: Eshonai meeting, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 53, Perfection: Elit duel and aftermath, this is the only time I found where we see a Shallan/Adolin interaction from Adolin's perspective, he thinks he's not unhappy to see her and that their relationship is awkward due to not knowing where they stand.
• WOR Ch. 56, Whitespine Uncaged: Four on one duel, burns Shallan's glyph and tells Navani she is quite marvelous. 
• WOR Ch. 81, The Last Day: Start of Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 82, For Glory Lit: Battle of Narak, mentions Shallan as telling him rock formations are building.
• WOR Ch. 83, Time's Illusion: Battle of Narak, tells Skar Shallan is a clever woman.
• WOR Ch. 84, The One Who Saves: Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 85, Swallowed by the Sky: Szeth meeting/fight, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 89, The Four: Killing Sadeas, notes Shallan may be the most important woman in the world because she is a Radiant and wonders how he fits in.
• OB, Ch. 2, One Problem Solved: Wandering Urithiru, no mention of Shallan.
• OB, Ch. 10, Distractions: Introspection with Gallant, no mention of Shallan.

I feel like I need to emphasize so this isn't taken the wrong way, I'm not saying AT ALL that Adolin doesn't like Shallan in a romantic sense.  That seems pretty clear.  I'm just saying that from the text it's very much a matter of personal interpretation (and to me, a bit of a stretch) to say he is in love with her and she is to him "the one".

Thanks for taking the time to research and write this up. That does match my recollection as well.

I would point out that for all characters (both major and minor) the POV scenes focus on their personal story. ie while Adolin is more or less a foil character to Dalinar in tWoK, if we just looked at Adolin's POV chapters he doesn't seem like one. If we look at Shallan's scenes when Adolin isn't around we don't see her thinking about him that frequently from what I remember (from memory, the most significant occasions when we see Shallan thinking about Adolin when he's not around are when she's preparing for meeting with him). The same for Dalinar and Navani. That's my subjective recollection at least. So I feel that what we see in Adolin's scenes is relatively typical of other characters in similar situations. I definitely would like to see an extended scene from Adolin's POV with Shallan though...

[Dreamstorm]

1 minute ago, Nebty said:

I feel that. But what makes a 'tiresome trope' is also subjective. You can say, "I hate chosen one narratives, they're everywhere. I don't want to read any more of them in any context." But you've got another person who loves them and seeks them out. And a third person who isn't usually a fan, but makes an exception when they find one that's a particularly well-written example. Something that's cliche to one person isn't necessarily cliche to everyone.

One of the things I find interesting about this debate is that many people say they hate love triangles and even that they will not or may not enjoy the book should a love triangle emerge here. And I get it. I actually hate love triangles too; I read a lot of YA, and I don't enjoy and will even avoid series' which have a love triangle.  I realized very early on in WoR we were headed down this road (as soon as the Adolin/Kaladin antagonism started - so I want to say Chapter 4) and texted my friend who recommend SA to me (and knows my love triangle hatred) all, ughhhhh whyyyyy. She assured me it wasn't bad and didn't overwhelm the story. And I've found I really enjoyed the storyline! I read Mistborn Era 1 after SA and found love triangle to be annoying (not enough to put me off the series, but I could have done without), so I can see why readers don't have faith in Sanderson to execute correctly though. 

[Guest]

Just now, mariapapadia said:

I know this isn't the best moment to make this argument as it will look like I am advocating for Adolin to find another girl, just to find resolution without Shallan. But please don't see it that way. Re-reading this part I just remembered a thought that I had when I re-read WoR for the first time. It might be a bit crazy, but I would like to hear your opinion on this. 

What about Eshonai ? I don't know if we have any WoB whether she's alive or dead, but I have a feeling she is alive. Anyway, I belive she's not dead and we'll see more of her in the future. I know a lot of work would have to be done for something like this to happen, but wouldn't you find the perspective of that interesing to read? "The good, exiled prince" and "the parshendi warrior that has been transform and it fight with an evil force that controls her" ?  It alignes with the need for a more developed storyline when it comes to Adolin's romance. I never wanted to imply that we should get resolution for his love problem in a few paragraphs, but I am under the impressions that is his story arc will follow the exile, the becoming a Radiant or other posibilities like that we will see more of him and interacting with other characters. 

I don't know, it was just a though, that I hope it won't be read as "let's just find another girl that's not Shallan", but "what other special girls are in this universe that could have an interesting relation with Adolin" ?

People have had this idea before. I did not find both characters compatible and I am not sure I find Adolin is the right character for an extra-species relationship. Moreover, Eshonai really didn't enjoy romance the last time she had it. I can write more later, but now I sort of have, you know, "real-life" to take care of.

[Aleksiel]

4 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

One of the things I find interesting about this debate is that many people say they hate love triangles and even that they will not or may not enjoy the book should a love triangle emerge here. And I get it. I actually hate love triangles too; I read a lot of YA, and I don't enjoy and will even avoid series' which have a love triangle.  I realized very early on in WoR we were headed down this road (as soon as the Adolin/Kaladin antagonism started - so I want to say Chapter 4) and texted my friend who recommend SA to me (and knows my love triangle hatred) all, ughhhhh whyyyyy. She assured me it wasn't bad and didn't overwhelm the story. And I've found I really enjoyed the storyline! I read Mistborn Era 1 after SA and found love triangle to be annoying (not enough to put me off the series, but I could have done without), so I can see why readers don't have faith in Sanderson to execute correctly though. 

Thank you. People claim well written love triangles exist, but I am yet to read one. 

[Harbour he/him]

In my opinion Shalladin type of trope was executed very well till now. I just reread that chasm scene. It was filled with intimate scenes and subtle or straight hints. If to imagine the two scales, one for Shadolin and second for Shalladin, the second one went up from -10 to +100 points in just few chapters.

Right now, reading this thread, i try to rethink my attitude towards Shadolin, and the main result i got is that i find Adolin the character who cant stand on his own. He always is a support character, addition to Dalinar (assistant), or Kaladin (foil), or Shallan (lover). As a character he is less fledged than Moash who has a strong purpose, and goal, and goes towards it. That leads me to desire to see Adolin alone. Or not alone, but doing something meaningfull on his own. Creating his own story, without the need to be only an addition to Shallan, or Dalinar, or Kaladin. I hope his new tasks will allow him to do this.

Thats why i think he earlier or later will break up with Shallan and go his own path. Maybe that path will meet Shallan's path again., few books later. But i doubt their current relationships will lead towards happy ending. If Shadolin would be a couple at the very end im sure both of them and their relationships would be purged, cleansed and reforged.

Shalladin, at the same time, has already began that process.

[Dreamstorm]

9 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Thanks for taking the time to research and write this up. That does match my recollection as well.

I would point out that for all characters (both major and minor) the POV scenes focus on their personal story. ie while Adolin is more or less a foil character to Dalinar in tWoK, if we just looked at Adolin's POV chapters he doesn't seem like one. If we look at Shallan's scenes when Adolin isn't around we don't see her thinking about him that frequently from what I remember (from memory, the most significant occasions when we see Shallan thinking about Adolin when he's not around are when she's preparing for meeting with him). The same for Dalinar and Navani. That's my subjective recollection at least. So I feel that what we see in Adolin's scenes is relatively typical of other characters in similar situations. I definitely would like to see an extended scene from Adolin's POV with Shallan though...

I don't think we have much support for Shallan being in love with/obsessed with Adolin either. (Once again I caveat that they are both interested in each other romantically so as to not be misunderstood.) On the other hand, I DO think Dalinar thinks about Navani a lot, even when she's not around, and this helps make it explicitly clear that Dalinar is in love/obsessed with Navani. 

I would argue that thinking about someone when you're doing something that has nothing to do with them (i.e. fighting in battle, young Dalinar as an example) is one of the hallmarks of love/obsession. That person is simply always on your mind. 

[Nebty]

19 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

One of the things I find interesting about this debate is that many people say they hate love triangles and even that they will not or may not enjoy the book should a love triangle emerge here. And I get it. I actually hate love triangles too; I read a lot of YA, and I don't enjoy and will even avoid series' which have a love triangle.  I realized very early on in WoR we were headed down this road (as soon as the Adolin/Kaladin antagonism started - so I want to say Chapter 4) and texted my friend who recommend SA to me (and knows my love triangle hatred) all, ughhhhh whyyyyy. She assured me it wasn't bad and didn't overwhelm the story. And I've found I really enjoyed the storyline! I read Mistborn Era 1 after SA and found love triangle to be annoying (not enough to put me off the series, but I could have done without), so I can see why readers don't have faith in Sanderson to execute correctly though. 

Yeah, love triangles really aren't my favourite thing, mostly because one of the points on the triangle is usually either demonized or forgotten about. Or the author beats around the bush too long which makes the characters come off as clingy or indecisive or just horrible communicators. Which can be painful if you like all of the characters involved.

But I was pleasantly surprised by the relationships in WoR, and it gives me a good feeling for what's going to come next. I do like conflict in relationships. Clashing personalities and values are what makes relationships interesting (one of the reasons Adolin and Kaladin are so much fun to read about). I can see a lot of conflict being set up that will be interesting to watch played out. And I also think that Sanderson is a good enough writer to do it while not selling his characters short.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nebty