[OB] Shalladin isn't as bad of an idea as you think.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, maxal said:

In short

Heh. Good one. 

30 minutes ago, maxal said:

how is it more important, romantically speaking (we aren't speaking of friendship or anything) for Kaladin to succeed with Shallan than for Adolin? How is it more dramatic for Kaladin not to have a romantic relationship with Shallan (but perhaps have a friendship relationship) than it is for Adolin?

I think she could be an important influence for both, so I won't put a measure of importance on it.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, mariapapadia said:

Maxal! You're actually made me advocate, more than I wanted to. I was honest when I said I wanted to be Sweden when it comes to the shipping wars, but I actually feel like the reason you don't want to accept anything else for Adolin, rather than Shallan is because he is your favourite character and you want him to see beat Kaladin for once. I actually wrote an edit with a point I forgot to add, but I think it's better suited here.

Oh no this is not the reason: this is not a battle in between Adolin and Kaladin. I do not want Adolin to win just so he could beat Kaladin. I want him to succeed with Shallan because I genuinely feel it is the best outcome for his character, I feel it will give him something he cannot get any other way. I also do not feel whatever it is Shallan can offer Kaladin requires a romantic partnership to happen. 

6 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I don't want to contest your understanding of Adolin, because I know and one can see how much thought and love you put into his character, but I don't like how in these arguments you are reducing him to just one guy who's love for Shallan is the most important thing, the thing that will make him succed or not. If I didn't know better I would think the only interesting or important thing about Adolin is Shallan. The only way Adolin can grow is through relationship with Shallan. It ties him too much of the posibility of succeding, that really puts me off. I hate it when a character becomes so dependet on someone else that they can't be their true self, they can't be strong enough on their own. What Adolin has for Shallan is infatuation at this point, it's not love. IMO one cannot love, truly love someone in such a short time, without having that raw knowledge of the other person. Without seeing who the other person truly is. Right now Adolin has a strong affection how Shallan, he's still falling, but I do not think that is love. Even if Brandon would write black on white tomorrow, that Adolin loves Shallan I wouldn't belive it .I  know it would probably be true because he knows them better, but I won't accept it, not because of spite, but because I don't see it, I don't feel it yet. The kind of love that you describe would be so devastating and crippleling is the kind you love them whole, to know the other person like it would be one of your limbs, to let them become a part of you, as you become a part of them. That is the kind of love Adolin wouldn't be able to get over, because he would not only lose his best friend, but also a part of himseld. And I don't think any of them are there yet. 

There is a lot of growth Adolin can get and not all of it passes through Shallan. I have talked about other aspects of his character into other threads, but when it comes to romance, what spontaneously come to mind is the fact he has failed so many of them and it has been such an integral part of him, I cannot foresee how it can be ignored within the narrative. It is why stating "any other girl" can be Adolin's girlfriend does not work. It is why the romance with Shallan has become so important, not because Adolin depends on it to exists as a human being, but because it has been one of his hurt, one of his personal issues, one of his flaws.

See it as how Kaladin needs to overcome his prejudice against lighteyes, how he needs to deal with his troubled past, how he needs to grow as a leader and assume the fact he is a Radiant, are we really going to settle for any story arc which doesn't allow him to accomplish this? Then how come are we settling down for a story arc which does not allow Adolin to have resolution with his own failures and hardships?

I personally read love whenever I read Adolin with Shallan, I read much more than mere infatuation. For him to really want to make it work, to actually admit he fears screwing it up, to her, it means a great deal more than "mere infatuation". This being said, we all read things differently, but I honestly do not know what more Brandon could write to make it more "obvious" Adolin loves Shallan without having him downright say it. And if you are right and he really does not love her, then Brandon is doing a very poor job, still from my perspective, to convey this fact.

And no I don't think Adolin will easily get over the only girl he actually tried to make it work with, the only girl he wants it to work with, the only girl he is able to move pass his issues to actually commit to. He will not crumple in helpless tears, but let's just say he won't get the opportunity to solve this particular issue he has. I do not think it makes Adolin dependent on someone to get growth, he depends on himself, but making it work with someone would give him a growth he needs.

20 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

To cut the cheesy speach about love, I expect if Adolin gets dumpt by Shallan for Kaladin (which I doubt will happen like that if it's to happen), to just learn from that and realise that he is strong and he won't just be nothing else because someone dumped him. You would say this if because we got used to Adolin being the strong one that can overcome everything. No! I would expect Kaladin as well to get his rust together and move on. I personally expect Kaladin to have a more difficult time, because given his personality he is more sensitive to opening up and forming connections, being them friendships or relationships. For a depressed person everything intensifies and their view of the world is more dramatic and gloomy than it actually is. This is why I belive "he won't just get over it". Adolin's personality is more on the happy side, it's easier for him to see the bright side of things and he wasn't broken until now. He has some daddy issues and a lot of pressure has been put on his shoulders, but he isn't emotionally crippled. Of course he needs love and happiness in his life, who doesn't ? But I don't belive Shallan is the only one that can give him that, nor do I think that about Kaladin/Shallan. If he gets dumped I expect him to cry, be hurt and get up and move on. If the doesn't do that, than he isn't the character I expected him to be. The same goes for Kaladin, Shallan and everyother character in this book. We are reading SA, not Twilight, so that we see characters crippled by love. 

This commentary illustrates just about everything I have said about Adolin's character, how readers are dismissing his feelings because he is not considered broken or because he isn't depressive. See, from my perspective, just because Adolin is not broken, per the Cosmere definition, does not mean he cannot hurt more than someone who was. My perspective is Adolin is the one having crippling inability to form meaningful relationships with others. Doesn't it mean anything the guy has been talking to everyone, be friendly to everyone and yet has no friends? Worst, those so-called friends teamed up to have him killed? Just because Adolin smiles it away, ignores it happened, brushes it with the back of his hand instead of rumbling on it endlessly does not mean nothing will ever get to him.

Besides, how is the guy having dated every single girl, having failed at every single relationship he ever attempted to not emotionally crippled? Depression isn't the only means by which people hurt. The idea it will be easier for Adolin to move pass the only girl he ever started to open with just because he has a smiling happy personality doesn't sit well with me. In fact it irks me for reasons which I do not trust myself to write in a convincing way.

Theoretically, Shallan isn't the only one who'd be able to bring Adolin happiness: I have stated it often enough. There likely are countless of girls who'd be suitable romantic partner for Adolin, the problem has never been them, it has always been him and, for some reason, Shallan is the one girl he can get pass those issues he has to make it work. Have her go away and we are back to square one.

46 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

 I realised I might look like I am defending Kaladin over Adolin and I don't want that. But the way you depicted Adolin in these last few posts made him look like he needs it. And I don't think he needs it in this context. As other people pointed today, he is not a victim, he is not weak, nor dull, the majority people you talk with on this forum (from the conversations I saw) understand that Adolin is great, that he has so much potential. I hate seeing him depicted a poor little lamb. I understand you get defensive over him because you had to fight for him over the years, but right now (expecially in the context of this thread) I want to belive we are talking about Adolin from the same level. I am not underestimating him in any way. 

The purpose was not to depict Adolin as "weak", but to state how his character has been built around his relationship issues. When you built a character around a given issue, it is only logical his growth passes through him resolving this issue. Just because Adolin's issues seem to be with relationships does not mean his will morph into a Twilight character, it just means I cannot foresee how his growth could be satisfying unless he tackles those issues. 

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

I don't think who gets the girl is what will add satisfying growth for any of the characters. It won't mean one is better than the other. Do you really belive that is the only way for Adolin to have a satisfying growth? Through a relationship ?! 

No. I think Adolin's character could have a lot of growth into various areas, but we aren't speaking of those here, we are speaking of the relationship department and a large chunk of Adolin's character is built around the relationship department. When you define a character around one flaw, it is logical the story would tackle it.

1 hour ago, mariapapadia said:

As I said, the basis of every relationship is, or should be friendship. If the friendship is strong enough, it can last even though the relatioship failed. At this point in the story, I don't belive Adolin/Shallan are that emotionally invested that they couldn't overcome their problems and be friends if they were to broke up. So yes, I think if Brandon wants it to be that way, he could easily do it and be plausible. 

Yes, this is why Kaladin and Shallan can be friends. I however do not see Adolin accepting to be "just Shallan's friend". This I cannot envision within the story. Maybe I lack the imagination, but the narrative I am reading does not suggest it, not from my perspective.

33 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

My belief is that one doesn't only have one meaningful relationship in life. Flings/attempts at relationships don't teach you that much about feelings or how to be in a relationship and we know Adolin had a lot of those, but he didn't have a closer connection to someone. I don't think that is the only or the strongest reason he should be with Shallan. Why can't he have a meaningful thing with her, that would teach him a thing or two about how relationships actually work and also find/love with someone else in the future? I don't say that I want to happen or this is how it should be resolved, but why do you think it's impossible? I still don't see what makes her so special in his eyes. Most people love more than one person in a lifetime. I get, this is a fantasy novel, not a romance one and we don't have time to see Adolin find "the one", but I feel like the notion of "the one" is a bit overrated. One can have a lot of special people in their lifetime and can learn from each of them. 

Because this goes outside the scope of the book. Adolin doesn't have the luxury of having enough viewpoints to make his relationship with "someone else" believable and workable. He has failed too often for him to succeed without a story arc, without Brandon needing to give time to this particular story to grow, plausibly. It just won't happen within 4 or 5 paragraphs. You can't just have the one character you have persistently described as being unable to make relationship works suddenly succeeds unless you dedicate a great lot of time to it. Brandon just doesn't have the page time for this just with Adolin's viewpoints as this new character probably won't have any and if he does this. If he does then SA becomes a love story, Adolin's story becomes one solely based on his love life. Now we already established nobody wants this including myself. 

I thus do not buy the argument "Adolin can just succeed with another yet to be introduced girl from a foreign nation" nor do I buy the argument his character does not need it. This is why I think it impossible, because it just does not fit within the narrative we had. 

Also, I never said this is the strongest nor the only reason why I prefer this ship. People got carried away from my one comment. There are many reasons to support this ship.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

he purpose was not to depict Adolin as "weak", but to state how his character has been built around his relationship issues. When you built a character around a given issue, it is only logical his growth passes through him resolving this issue. Just because Adolin's issues seem to be with relationships does not mean his will morph into a Twilight character, it just means I cannot foresee how his growth could be satisfying unless he tackles those issues. 

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

When you define a character around one flaw, it is logical the story would tackle it.

Adolin's main character flaw is having trust issues and having a feeling of not being good enough for others. He is a great leader, he is confident in his own way, he was stable in his social standing, but is developing an insecurity, while everyone around him is becoming a Radiant. I sincerely don't believe, that Brandon designed Adolin by having the idea of a character, who has problems with maintaining a long-lasting romantic relationship.

I more think, that his problems with maintaining a lasting relationship is an effect of his problem of trusting people. In fact, he also doesn't have many male friends. He doesn't have many peers. He naturally distances himself from people, who become close to him. You can see it happening with Shallan, him thinking about blowing off the betrothal. Sure, she reels him back in for the time being, but I still remain sceptical about Adolin being right for Shallan. Let me explain why. It has something to do with her character development.

Adolin is opening himself up to Shallan. That's great! That is character development... but Shallan isn't opening herself. Until now, Shallan's whole course consisted out of finding herself. Admitting who she is. Though not out of his own volition, Adolin is hindering that.

Look at it from Shallan's perspective: The world is ending, listeners all around Roshar are turning into mindless murder machines threatening mankind. And storms, Shallan is supposed to be a Radiant. To step up and help save mankind? Imagine the pressure. Imagine the uncertainty. Adolin is the only thing, that currently is certain in Shallan's life. She clings to it, she bends herself to make it work, like when she wouldn't tell Adolin, that she rather would not train duelling stances. That is also why her subconscious starts to kick in and panics, when she gets the feeling, he might blow off the betrothal. But only the betrothal, she's so focused on the betrothal, of that anchor, that she is afraid of losing that. I don't blame her, it's human, but it is also why I think, that Adolin inhibits her character growth. She'll never open up to him. She'd rather keep bending and twisting herself, than lose that one certainty in her life. That is not a basis for a long-lasting relationship. I'm not even sure, that unconditional love can bloom on such soil, if she keeps on deceiving him. Being something to him, she really isn't.

Now, Kaladin might help her grow, help her progress. She already opened herself to him once, as he did to her. Except they won't be able to become friends. I don't believe Adolin to be a posessive person, but I believe him to be a jealous person. A protective person. And, most importantly, an insecure person with trust issues. Will he trust Shallan enough to not grow jealous? Will he be secure enough to be able to see Shallan spend time with another man? Besides, I don't think, that Kaladin will even let himself get close to her, building up a friendship. Even if Shallan is the one, who approaches Kaladin. He respects Adolin too much. You can already see it in him denying his attraction to Shallan, when Syl mentions it. So, as long as Adolin and Shallan are in a relationship, I see this course as barred.

In a way, I agree with you. Shallan (and in a way, Kaladin, by keeping his distance to Shallan) can help Adolin to overcome his issues of trust and insecurity, but the emphasis is on the word help. Adolin must forge his own path, and I don't necessarily see Shallan at his side, because he would hinder her own character progression. It may not be fair, but they are just reaping what they have sown by forcing themselves into a condition - the betrothal. There is too much tension on both sides, too much necessity for natural love to bloom.

7 hours ago, maxal said:

Yes, this is why Kaladin and Shallan can be friends. I however do not see Adolin accepting to be "just Shallan's friend". This I cannot envision within the story. Maybe I lack the imagination, but the narrative I am reading does not suggest it, not from my perspective.

Not immediately, no. No one expects that. As no one would expect for Kaladin to immediately get over a possible rejection, if there were any developing feelings. If he opened himself to Shallan.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

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1 hour ago, SLNC said:

 

Adolin's main character flaw is having trust issues and having a feeling of not being good enough for others. He is a great leader, he is confident in his own way, he was stable in his social standing, but is developing an insecurity, while everyone around him is becoming a Radiant. I sincerely don't believe, that Brandon designed Adolin by having the idea of a character, who has problems with maintaining a long-lasting romantic relationship.

Adolin is based on Aredor from WoK Prime. As far as I could tell, Aredor has the same endless string of conquests, but I do not think it was further explored. Brandon once said Adolin is a character he designed, but grew from the original outlay, got more depth, more flesh as he was tossed into the seat of a viewpoint protagonist. Therefore how much has Brandon planned in advance for him and how much is him having fun with the character, letting him grow, I do not know.

What I do know however is a lot of Adolin's places of conflict came from his relationships: friends, love, family. I definitely agree with you he feels he is not good enough for others, not unless he becomes exactly what others want him to be. As far as we can tell, based on WoB and everything, this has been the root cause of his relationship issues. He can't develop meaningful relationship with other people than his close family members. It is like he has a block or something, thus to make it work it is either he finds a way to move pass this block on the virtue of a girl he really, really loves or someone forces him to move past it, someone who really, really loves him. However, just like Kaladin's depression will never go away, I doubt Adolin's insecurities will readily vanish: he will have have them, he will always struggle with inter-personal relationships.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

I more think, that his problems with maintaining a lasting relationship is an effect of his problem of trusting people. In fact, he also doesn't have many male friends. He doesn't have many peers. He naturally distances himself from people, who become close to him. You can see it happening with Shallan, him thinking about blowing off the betrothal. Sure, she reels him back in for the time being, but I still remain sceptical about Adolin being right for Shallan. Let me explain why. It has something to do with her character development.

Adolin is opening himself up to Shallan. That's great! That is character development... but Shallan isn't opening herself. Until now, Shallan's whole course consisted out of finding herself. Admitting who she is. Though not out of his own volition, Adolin is hindering that.

My reading of those scenes is completely different than yours. I do agree the world is ending, the Radiants need to step up. Dalinar is right. They need to train, to be ready. They cannot be allowed to linger endlessly, to not progress, to remain static: the world needs them as functional Radiants. And what was Shallan doing prior to her date with Adolin? Refusing to acknowledge she had a Blade. Refusing to summon it unless forced to. Hating it because it is the Blade she used to kill her mother. Shallan has a massive block when it comes to using her Blade, but she is a Radiant. She needs to use her Blade. She needs to learn how to use her Blade.

Adolin is right. Shallan is wrong to refuse to move forward. Therefore, what you read as him forcing her and hindering her progress, I read as the complete opposite. He is making her do what she would not do by herself, but needs to do. Pattern agrees it has to be done, but Shallan will NOT do it. She would NOT remember her mother, not until Pattern literally forced her to. Shallan, I read, as a very hard to make progress character, a bit like Renarin, she needs to be urge forward and in this specific case, I do sincerely believe the best which could have happened to her definitely is having passionate Adolin teach her and let his love for Blades move onto her. The way he treats them, the way he talks about them, I do believe this is exactly what Shallan needs.

Obviously, we haven't read all of the story. These are my thoughts so far. We'll see how they hold with future chapters.

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

Now, Kaladin might help her grow, help her progress. She already opened herself to him once, as he did to her. Except they won't be able to become friends. I don't believe Adolin to be a posessive person, but I believe him to be a jealous person. A protective person. And, most importantly, an insecure person with trust issues. Will he trust Shallan enough to not grow jealous? Will he be secure enough to be able to see Shallan spend time with another man? Besides, I don't think, that Kaladin will even let himself get close to her, building up a friendship. Even if Shallan is the one, who approaches Kaladin. He respects Adolin too much. You can already see it in him denying his attraction to Shallan, when Syl mentions it. So, as long as Adolin and Shallan are in a relationship, I see this course as barred.

Kaladin would not help her progress with her Blade... He's just not the right person for this. Also while it is true she told things to Kaladin, she also told things to Adolin, but with Adolin the stakes are higher, she actually likes him, I find it normal it would take more time to open up to him. You know, when you fear losing someone... You will not compromise the relationship with past horror stories, I find the behavior totally plausible and realistic. In fact, had she tell Adolin, had she been completely honest with him, I would find less plausible at this point in time.

Adolin is not a jealous person. He does not envy others. The only time he was jealous was when, as a boy, he felt his parents gave more attention to Renarin than to him. His jealousy, when it existed, was linked to his family, to his father, to his brother. I thus doubt Adolin would be jealous of Kaladin. Hurt, yes, but he will play possum. He will ignore he hurts, but he will isolate himself from them, he will avoid them. He will be friendly with them, but he will never become their friend.

Will he be secure enough to see Shallan spend time with another man? If he does not see this man as competition, yes. If he sees him as competition, no. Adolin may not readily see Kaladin as competition because he is a darkeyes or former darkeyes. His brain is wired this way.

I however agree with you Kaladin would not do anything with Shallan as long as she is with Adolin. I agree he would distant himself. This seems consistent with his inner thoughts so far, though Syl has no inhibitions in this regards. However if you followed my thoughts, I have stated on numerous occasions I did think Shallan and Adolin will break it up. Brandon did say there would be Kaladin/Shallan moments within OB. As such, I definitely think whichever feelings they have for each other will be explore. What I disagree with is they will conclude they like each other in a romantic way. I would prefer if they feelings turned out being platonic for both of them, not just Shallan. As such, I like the idea previously mentioned exploring things with Kaladin could help Shallan realize she does love Adolin. I would however preferred if Kaladin came to the same conclusions as well (well not that he loves Adolin, this would be too convoluted  but that what he feels towards Shallan isn't romantic).

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

In a way, I agree with you. Shallan (and in a way, Kaladin, by keeping his distance to Shallan) can help Adolin to overcome his issues of trust and insecurity, but the emphasis is on the word help. Adolin must forge his own path, and I don't necessarily see Shallan at his side, because he would hinder her own character progression. It may not be fair, but they are just reaping what they have sown by forcing themselves into a condition - the betrothal. There is too much tension on both sides, too much necessity for natural love to bloom.

There will be conflict before they move onto formal betrothal or even marriage. I doubt it will look like any of them is going into it backwards: it doesn't look like any of them is going into backwards. I also disagree being with Adolin hinders Shallan's progression or character growth: I find them particularly well assorted with their respective strengths and weaknesses. I find them better assorted than Kaladin and Shallan.

I disagree they are forcing each other: from their own admission, it seems to me they want the betrothal. I definitely do not read Shallan as "hanging up on Adolin because he is normality". I did not read this into her viewpoints. It seems to me she genuinely wants to be with Adolin though I will agree she views him as "something perfect". A dream. Something which should have never been: girls like her do not date guys like Adolin. I also agree Shallan likes the "idea of Adolin", but if he doesn't know her every secrets, she doesn't know his either. People always think secrets are events, actions and while it is true Adolin is hiding one of those, what he is really hiding is himself. 

How are they both going to react to their "real self" has not been written yet, but I disagree it will necessarily steer them apart or it makes them incompatible. I do think they will grow closer because of it, but not after a rough patch, a very rough patch.

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Not immediately, no. No one expects that. As no one would expect for Kaladin to immediately get over a possible rejection, if there were any developing feelings. If he opened himself to Shallan.

I don't see it happening ever. Dalinar could never befriend Navani. Navani could never befriend Dalinar. I think it far-fetched, based on what we know from Adolin, to think he would befriend either Shallan or Kaladin shall they form a lasting relationship. He would work with them, he would tolerate them, if they seem happy, he would be happy for them, but he would never be their friend. He'd be the distant ally, the one who will endure their company only when forced to. Adolin can't have friends: he won't be friends with the woman he once loved and perhaps will always love. 

As for Kaladin, everything depends on how his feelings evolved. I don't currently read them as strong enough nor developed enough to cause him any prejudice. It may evolve, but I'd rather Brandon does not write anything too dramatic here. I like how Kaladin is progressing right now, turning into a heartbroken lover really doesn't suit my perception of his character, but YMMV.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, maxal said:

My reading of those scenes is completely different than yours. I do agree the world is ending, the Radiants need to step up. Dalinar is right. They need to train, to be ready. They cannot be allowed to linger endlessly, to not progress, to remain static: the world needs them as functional Radiants. And what was Shallan doing prior to her date with Adolin? Refusing to acknowledge she had a Blade. Refusing to summon it unless forced to. Hating it because it is the Blade she used to kill her mother. Shallan has a massive block when it comes to using her Blade, but she is a Radiant. She needs to use her Blade. She needs to learn how to use her Blade.

Adolin is right. Shallan is wrong to refuse to move forward. Therefore, what you read as him forcing her and hindering her progress, I read as the complete opposite. He is making her do what she would not do by herself, but needs to do. Pattern agrees it has to be done, but Shallan will NOT do it. She would NOT remember her mother, not until Pattern literally forced her to. Shallan, I read, as a very hard to make progress character, a bit like Renarin, she needs to be urge forward and in this specific case, I do sincerely believe the best which could have happened to her definitely is having passionate Adolin teach her and let his love for Blades move onto her. The way he treats them, the way he talks about them, I do believe this is exactly what Shallan needs.

Obviously, we haven't read all of the story. These are my thoughts so far. We'll see how they hold with future chapters.

 

51 minutes ago, maxal said:

Kaladin would not help her progress with her Blade... He's just not the right person for this. Also while it is true she told things to Kaladin, she also told things to Adolin, but with Adolin the stakes are higher, she actually likes him, I find it normal it would take more time to open up to him. You know, when you fear losing someone... You will not compromise the relationship with past horror stories, I find the behavior totally plausible and realistic. In fact, had she tell Adolin, had she been completely honest with him, I would find less plausible at this point in time.

Adolin is not a jealous person. He does not envy others. The only time he was jealous was when, as a boy, he felt his parents gave more attention to Renarin than to him. His jealousy, when it existed, was linked to his family, to his father, to his brother. I thus doubt Adolin would be jealous of Kaladin. Hurt, yes, but he will play possum. He will ignore he hurts, but he will isolate himself from them, he will avoid them. He will be friendly with them, but he will never become their friend.

Will he be secure enough to see Shallan spend time with another man? If he does not see this man as competition, yes. If he sees him as competition, no. Adolin may not readily see Kaladin as competition because he is a darkeyes or former darkeyes. His brain is wired this way.

You seem to misunderstand me. Shallan is still refusing to summon Pattern as a Blade. Adolin didn't help one bit. He pressured her into doing something she really wasn't comfortable doing yet and in a self-preservative reaction, she created a new form of herself, who is able to wield Pattern as a Blade, but isn't Shallan. The biggest takeaway for that was, that Brightness Radiant is not able to draw. She's putting herself into a completely different state of mind to somehow cope with the pressure Adolin is putting on her, because she's afraid to talk against him, because she thinks he won't understand her problem. Now, that sounds like Adolin is abusive. I don't mean it that way, just want to clarify that.

Honestly, she is already beginning to build walls against the truth again. Against the truth, that she is a Knight Radiant and that she will have to wield Pattern as a Blade - but as Shallan. It won't help, that she always has to be Brightness Radiant, when she is a Radiant. Like I said, Adolin isn't actively trying to do it, but he enables her.

Remember when Kaladin killed the Shardbearer on the battlefield? After the battle, Kaladin refused the Shards. Kaladin said, that he couldn't take the Blade, since the blood of his men coated it, since it would make him a lighteyes, . Remember when Adolin offered Kaladin shards? He refused. He couldn't stand them. But he got over it, because he saw the necessity for him to wield Syl. To become what he never wanted to become - a lighteyes.

What Shallan needs is not someone, who tells her how great Blades really are and that she should be happy about having one, but someone, who can relate to her.

Someone, who can tell her, "I know how you feel, I felt the same not so long ago. I hated the idea of wielding a Shardblade. But let me help you get over that fear. Let me help you become what you have to become. You don't have to do this all by yourself, you're not alone."

That person: Kaladin. Because he has been there. He understands her. But this won't happen, while Adolin and Shallan are actively dating.

Regarding Adolin not seeing Kaladin as competition: I have to disagree with you there. He acknowledges, that Knight Radiant have a higher social standing them him now. He acknowledges that Shallan has a higher social standing than him. It is a big source of his insecurity. Sure, he still calls him 'bridgeboy', but inside he does know, what Kaladin being a Radiant means.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC
Formatting

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

...

All I can say is if you are right about the story (I am not saying you are right or I, I am saying we both will need to keep on reading), it will be a very heart-breaking one for Adolin. If you are right and Kaladin/Shallan are the best pairing, for all of the reasons you have mentioned, then what it means for Adolin?

We get right back into it. 

Adolin's character doesn't have the viewpoints nor the personality nor the growth to support himself finding the improbable love elsewhere. He is not going to "just be friends" with both Shallan and Kaladin: we can toss this one out of the window. Nobody is going to convince me this is a plausible denouement unless Brandon writes it and even then, it will need to be masterful writing because I honestly see it as an impossibility. 

It may be Kaladin could help Shallan grow, but I remain convinced Adolin can too. I however hate the idea the young characters would need to stop interacting because of romance and I see no other way for it to conclude shall Shallan and Kaladin develop real heart-felt romantic feelings towards each other (which I disagree they currently have, what they have is a maybe).

People keep on saying Adolin can grow in other ways, he does not need resolution onto the relationship department to grow, he could fall in love with another random yet to be introduced girl (because it is more convenient he is not in love with Shallan), but I am not seeing it this way. I am seeing Kaladin and Shallan as a massive show stopper for the main narrative: it ruins the bromance and it deprives Adolin's character from the possibility to move past some of his issues. The idea falling with Shallan will help him succeed with another girl seriously doesn't hold the road with the current narrative. Boiled cat fears hot water: if Adolin is dumped by the only girl he made a real effort to keep despite his fears, then I suspect it will take years before he tries again with another girl. He won't get years though: his family will marry him off before it happens.

Also, Adolin made it clear while Kaladin is a Radiant, he still sees him as a darkeyed. This will take some time to getting use to it. He may not readily see Kaladin as a competition, not at first anyway.

Bottom line is I don't think Shallan's growth is more interesting if she is with Kaladin. I don't think Kaladin's growth is more interesting if he is with Shallan, but I think Adolin's growth is more interesting if it ends up working for him. However if this is how Brandon wants to write it, so be it, but I fear it will make the story much less dynamic and compartmentalize with Shallan/Kaladin on one side and the Kholins on the other, them never really interacting unless necessary. They won't be a team or if they are a team, it is one where Adolin is not a player. 

I never feared Brightness Radiant... I read it as a healing process, but we'll see where it goes.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

...

First of all, I know that we're only speculating and I am eager to see how it will really play out. I'm just saying what makes the most sense to me, looking at each characters past, especially Shallan's barricading against the truth of her being and Kaladin having dealt with the same block, albeit for different reasons.

I agree with your proposition of the inter-personal relationships between Kaladin, Shallan and Adolin. And since Brandon already said, that there will be Kaladin/Shallan moments, one of them will be left heartbroken. I wish it for neither of them, but it is something that we have to acknowledge.

I fail to see the inter-personal relationship between Adolin and Kaladin to be part of the main narrative. And, to be frank, their bromance is still in the early phases. It is not like they are best buddies or anything. I see the possibility there, but it still is a maybe for me.

Maybe you are right, maybe Shallan's character growth will be more interesting with Adolin, but I remain convinced, that to resolve her issues, she will need to consult with Kaladin for reasons mentioned above. For Adolin's growth, I am on the complete other side. Would you rather have him be that Highprince, which it looks like he will become, constantly being in the shadow of his Radiant wife? I don't mean to sound sexist, but we are in Alethkar after all. Let us say, that Shallan and him get married, where would he go from there? I would rather see him get out there and forge his own destiny, maybe even revive his Shardblade. But maybe we have different definitions of "interesting".

Dalinar would never allow a rift between the Radiants and their non-Radiant allies to form. Adolin is loyal to his father, we already know that. I don't see a problem with cooperation, even if the betrothal doesn't go through. He might not become best friends with Kaladin or Shallan, but they would work together, because they must. Else Adolin would be the petty person, that we haven't read about. I think we can agree on that.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

[+eveorjoy she/her]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I never feared Brightness Radiant... I read it as a healing process, but we'll see where it goes.

Actually, there is some pretty compelling evidence that she is exhibiting dissociative disorder. Her blackouts in WoR suggest this as does her tendency to make herself someone else, even in private. I don't think we have met the true Shallan, and she will need to face that person if she is to become a full Radiant.

However, this would be an issue no matter who she was with. I said the truth of Heleran would break her and Kaladin up, but Shallan's issues might be too much for Kaladin to deal with. He may just want to be friends with her in the end. That isn't mean. Kaladin has his own issues to deal with. And until Shallan deals with herself I don't think she will work in any relationship.

I also don't like this idea that Kaladin can't help Shallan with her issues as a really good friend.

I think the sequence with go Adolin/Shallan, Kaladin/Shallan, then Adolin/Shallan, because of where the plot and Shallan's character is going.

Adolin is either going to go back to Alethkar and be a Highprince, or Brandon is going to use one of the biggest plot twists of WoR and have Adolin face the consequences for his actions. Either path will break up Shallan and Adolin for a while, but not forever. But lets say they somehow stay together. They handle a long distance relationship and Adolin's crime is never discovered (how boring). Even in that situation Shallan's issues will damage the relationship. At some point, Shallan's issues will overwhelm her and she is not be ale to be with anyone for a time.

Some say she has opened up to Kaladin, she has but only to another mask. She showed him the person she showed her brothers. Only Pattern has seen the true Shallan and he wonders if he can even remain her spren.

So after Adolin leaves, Kaladin will get closer to Shallan. Shallan will think Adolin is no longer and option, so she will grow closer to Kaladin. Then her issues and the fact that Kaladin killed her brother will wreck the relationship. Kaladin will be sad, but he has handled a break up before, Tarah. Kaladin will be mature enough to see why they won't work. He will then stay by Shallan as a friend and help her deal with her issues. I think he will always care for Shallan, but I think he will lose romantic interest in her. Men and women can be good friends, valuable people in each others lives, without being a couple.

After Shallan deals with her issues and Adolin returns to Urithru as a KR, will they get back together? I think so, but maybe not. Still, if they do that is the relationship that will work, because Adolin and Shallan will be ready for it then.

Kaladin is not a prop for Shallan and Adolin in this scenario.  His experience with the broken Shallan will help his character growth as well. And in the end he still gets to be friends with Adolin and Shallan. The scenario where Kaladin and Shallan stay together does not allow for Adolin to stay their friend. I don't think Adolin will break up from Shallan by choice. He will come back to Urithru still in love with her. It would be out of character for him to accept being the third wheel. Kaladin on the other hand could handle it, because he genuinely cares for both of them already as a friend. Not a close one yet, but he does care. I don't think Kaladin would want to lose that friendship even if it didn't work between him and Shallan.

Edited October 1, 2017 by eveorjoy

[mariapapadia she/her]

Ok! Let's go at this again. First thank you for replying in such a structured way @maxal, it helped me clarify more in my head what I wanted to say. My last post wasn't as objective as I would've wanted to so I feel the need to clarify some things. 

I will partialy reply to your response and also talk about something else when it comes to the disscusions surrounding Adolin. 

First thing I want to say is that a while ago you told me in a response to something I commented that you've never  opened a thread where you would disscus Adolin, but you only commented/defended him on others. I think that was a mistake ? Why ? Because it's clear you have an extended understanding of Adolin, which I agree with most of the time. Some of the points you made about him really put some things into perspective for me, when it comes to his character. I don't think is anyone on this forum who doesn't consider you the "Adolin expert". But what I feel it's a problem is that ,as you guys talked about yesterday, most of the new people don't know his full story, don't have this broad image of him, they would stumble onto a thread with a totally "innocent" topic, that would turn into an Adolin ode. Because every thread I encountered so far about characters or character's development ends in an Adolin characterization essay/ comparation  and I feel like that puts a lot of people off. The thing is, most of the time the same arguments are made, there is only so much one can bring new to the table after so many disscusions. So I feel like, having a thread that would've gather all the analisys and the possible directions of his character, the stuggle the Adolin fans had to go through, would have help. It's easy to direct and introduce someone to a specific thread, instead of having people stumble upon different parts of those analisys and derail the main idea. My personal impression is that every time there is a debate, instead of disscusing the topic at hand, we go back to Adolin characterization 1.01. For me that affected the way I see his character, because sometimes I feel there is so much controversy and drama whenever he is brough up, that I just want to skip everything. And lately this is what I have been doing, but now when I am rereading the books or reading the new chapters it's like I hear everyone in my head screaming and contradicting and to be honest I get tired of it. I realise it's not my place to say to anyone where to post what and how to do it, but it was just a friendly input. As someone who is relatively new to the forum I would've like to have a thread like that. Of course everyone can skip the parts they don't want to read, but in the context of a bigger thread it becomes really messy.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come the wrong way, I still like Adolin, but I am a bit dissapointed that in a way I feel he can't surpise me anymore. It's like all the posibilities have been covered and I just have to wait and see which one will happen. 

The thing with a character like Adolin, that didn't have that much screen time compared with the others ,is that we don't know about all his inner turmoil. It's a bit left to the imagination and it's perfectly plausible for people to read him differently or get a different vibe from him. While a lot of the things said about his character could be written off as facts or truths, there is a lot left for speculation. There are  situations where a POV from Adolin could have clarified some things. You asked me what would make me belive Adolin loves Shallan. A POV where I can understand more how he sees her, what he finds so special about her, what drives him to make it work with her out of all girls. I am not denying Shallan is special for him, I never denied that, but I have reservations that she is "the only one" because so far I haven't seen (maybe I forgot something) her through his eyes.

I am not against Shadolin, as I said I think they had some genuinely nice moments together and I am sure they could work in the future. But before that I am expecting to see, and not be told, why is she the only girl Adolin can work with and not someone else. I need a POV from Adolin that shows he wants to make it work because it's Shallan, not because he needs to prove himself he can make a relationship work. What would've happen if the story didn't brought Shallan to Adolin ? As you pointed out he already dated every eligible girl in Alethkar. Does that mean he would've been doomed forever when it comes to love? I don't think so. Maybe I am a cynic, but I don't belive in "the one". Especially in the context of a book where the author can make everything seem believeable. You said at one point that you don't need Adolin to become a Radiant, but you need to see why he can't become a Radiant. It's a bit like that for me. I need to see why Shallan is the only one Adolin can work with and in the case Shallan ends with Kaladin, I need to see why is she the perfect fit for him and not for Adolin ( I know you don't think she's in any way, shape of form special or fit for Kaladin, but let's agree to disagree). 

 HIs character is not only written around the imposibility of forming romantic relationships, but as you pointed out meaningful friendships too.  Why do you think is that? It got me thinking if it's because of Dalinar or something that happened in his chilhood. You argue that Shallan is the one that could help him overcome this. I disagree. His problems have deeper roots than that and succeding with Shallan will only treat a symptom of the problem, not the cause. This is why I think Shallan being a milestone he crosses won't solve anything. If he and Shallan are to have a real , healthy relationship he needs to face and resolve his problems before. It's the same situation as it is with Kaladin. Being with her won't cure his depression, it can ameliorate his symptoms, but in the end it won't fix him. Shallan is not here to fix Adolin or Kaladin  and they are not here to fix her. Their connections can do some good for everyone, but at the end of the day everyone has to dig deeper to fix themselves. Kaladin/Adolin (not in a romantic way ) can also help both characters, this is why I like the premise of this so called "love triangle". All of them will have strong connections I belive and that makes it an interesting read. I head Brandon say in a lecture that a way to create conflict in a love triangle is to have both love interests as equally desirable. This is why I belive both have a strong, real chance at a love story with her. 

I agree Adolin is a different kind of broken and I was a bit biased towards Kaladin, because depression is a thing that hits close to home for me. From all the issues I encountered in people in my lifetime I think depression is the worst. 

 

3 hours ago, maxal said:

I don't see it happening ever. Dalinar could never befriend Navani. Navani could never befriend Dalinar. I think it far-fetched, based on what we know from Adolin, to think he would befriend either Shallan or Kaladin shall they form a lasting relationship. He would work with them, he would tolerate them, if they seem happy, he would be happy for them, but he would never be their friend. He'd be the distant ally, the one who will endure their company only when forced to. Adolin can't have friends: he won't be friends with the woman he once loved and perhaps will always love. 

 

Out of all people you should know this best. That Adolin isn't Dalinar. This "love triangle" doesn't resemble the Navani-Dalinar-Gaviliar. As far as we can see, Adolin at his age is a much greater person than Dalinar was. 

As far as Adolin not having enough time to have another love interest introduced because he doesn't have many POV, I think it depends on where his arc story goes. If he is to revive his blade or become a Radiant or anything along those lines, his POVs will definetly expand, so we could see a satisfying story. I don't want you to get this the wrong way, but sometimes I get the feeling you don't want to accept any other vision for Adolin than your own. You conceded some points here and there, but when we find out that Adolin could become a highprince it was like everything else was doomed for him. We are only 10% into the book, maybe not even that and it surprised me how easy you got to that conclusion. Personally I don't want to think more about what will happen with Adolin, Shallan or any of the other characters. I want to be surprised by them and the story. So I will detach myself until we know more. When you are too invested or too close to a topic it's a bit difficult to be objective. 

I honestly hope you won't take my posts about Adolin the wrong way or as an attack. I really like his character and I am excited to see him find love and grow and be happy however Brandon will choose fit for his character. But I think some balance was needed in regards to what you said about him and Kaladin in these last few posts.

 

Edit: Honestly, this may sound harsh, but I would hate if Adolin will get Shallan out of pity. Just because he doesn't have the great story arc that Kaladin or Shallan have, so he gets the girl as a consolation prize. I don't like that idea. Give Shallan to Adolin because he doesn't have anything else. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Some say she has opened up to Kaladin, she has but only to another mask. She showed him the person she showed her brothers.

Because she herself believed to be exactly this person, at that time. She hadn't really opened up to herself, at that time. She can't drop a mask, that she herself doesn't even think she wears. Pattern showed her that mask, but after the chasm.

The rest of your post is basically just speculation, which is fine! But I can't really argue against that. It either happens or it doesn't.

 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Because she herself believed to be exactly this person, at that time. She hadn't really opened up to herself, at that time. She can't drop a mask, that she herself doesn't even think she wears. Pattern showed her that mask, but after the chasm.

The rest of your post is basically just speculation, which is fine! But I can't really argue against that. It either happens or it doesn't.

 

True most of my thoughts are speculation. I'm just trying to make clear that when I considered Kaladin and Shallan the temporary relationship while Shallan and Adolin were broken up, I was not ignoring Kaladin's feelings in that scenario as some suspected. It bugged me people thought that because Kaladin is in fact my favorite character. Adolin is tied with Lift for second favorite and he moved into the spot largely because of his attempts to help Kaladin in WoR. Also the voice actor who plays Adolin in the Graptic Audio version of SA is just awesome. Tim Gitman is my favorite voice actor of that cast. 

This person Shallan thinks she is, she has shown to Adolin. Her poop question was all her and she has shown more of this person to Adolin in the last few chapters of OB. Yes, she went all Brightness Radiant when the pragmatic suggestion of learning to use her shardblade came up, but she would have reacted that way if Kaladin had suggested they go train with Zahel. She does need to be able to use that sword and her mask has nothing to do with the person who brought up that fact.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

This person Shallan thinks she is, she has shown to Adolin. Her poop question was all her and she has shown more of this person to Adolin in the last few chapters of OB. Yes, she went all Brightness Radiant when the pragmatic suggestion of learning to use her shardblade came up, but she would have reacted that way if Kaladin had suggested they go train with Zahel. She does need to be able to use that sword and her mask has nothing to do with the person who brought up that fact.

Well, she was constantly bantering with Kaladin as well, so that is kinda moot. My point is, that she opened up more for him than she did for Adolin, but not as far as we now know it actually goes, because she herself was in denial about killing her mother. My point is that she couldn't even have told Kaladin or her brothers, that she killed her mother, because she made herself forget it happening.

I don't think she would have gone Brightness Radiant for Kaladin. She went that route with Adolin, because she thought it is something she absolutely had to do for him. I don't think she would be so inclined for Kaladin... which in this case would have been better.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

[+eveorjoy she/her]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I don't think she would have gone Brightness Radiant for Kaladin. She went that route with Adolin, because she thought it is something she absolutely had to do for him. I don't think she would be so inclined for Kaladin... which in this case would have been better.

Well, we really don't know. We will need to wait until Kaladin gets back before we can see if she drop Brightness Radiant around him.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, eveorjoy said:

Well, we really don't know. We will need to wait until Kaladin gets back before we can see if she drop Brightness Radiant around him.

I wouldn't be surprised, if she would do that now. I can only hope, that Kaladin will see through it. Perhaps through Syl.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Aleksiel]

You guys make wonderful in-world related posts. I'd like to take a step back and view Shalladin for a moment from outline perspective. On one side we have the 'main female character, oblivious to her own appeal has both male leads fall for her' along with 'two characters that hated each other at first later fall in love' - both very tiresome tropes that have been done to death, does that fit Brandon's style?

[mariapapadia she/her]

5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

You guys make wonderful in-world related posts. I'd like to take a step back and view Shalladin for a moment from outline perspective. On one side we have the 'main female character, oblivious to her own appeal has both male leads fall for her' along with 'two characters that hated each other at first later fall in love' - both very tiresome tropes that have been done to death, does that fit Brandon's style?

Yes. As I said multiple times, Brandon isn't above using tropes. He stated that he isn't against tropes, but he would take them and spin them to show them in a new light. Tropes are tropes for a reason. If the author is great like Brandon, he can make out of the most boring trope, a great story. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by mariapapadia

[Guest]

Everything is tropey. Everything stems from something. Especially in fictional romance.

And the "arranged marriage works out" trope is also very used and tiresome - especially in the Cosmere. I'd rather stay on in-world discussion.

The only way to completely stay away from tropes would have been to not have any romance at all, but we're already past that point. And even then, there probably would have been a trope to be found somewhere.

Edited October 1, 2017 by SLNC

[Nebty]

19 hours ago, maxal said:

Shall Shallan prefers Kaladin (and she might), what is to become of Adolin? How is he going to succeed with another relationship when we have established the scope of his failures? How is the next "random nameless girl" going to do the same as Shallan did? 

As someone who really loves and appreciates Shallan as a character, I don't buy the argument from the perspective of 'Adolin's found The One and he's never going to find another', and therefore he somehow deserves Shallan more.

1) I just don't actually believe it, as mariapapadia eloquently argued. You say that there is no possible way Adolin would be able to deal with not being in a relationship with Shallan, and thus the story shouldn't go there. But I don't think you're giving him enough credit. He's an adult. They're all adults. And also the world is ending. No matter what happens with this nascent love triangle, I think they're all going to have bigger things to worry about.

2) Even if it is true, that's...kind of a him problem. It takes two to tango, y'know? You've done a lot of arguing for why Adolin needs Shallan, but Shallan's own desires are a big part of if this whole relationship thing is going to work or not.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. All of them are cute. I love all three. I want them all to be happy and safe and healthy. But I hate it when discussions like this devolve into arguing about which of two points of the love triangle deserves the third, when a relationship is inevitably going to require consent from both parties. And the argument that one person needs another for some kind of self-actualization particularly puts me off. It smacks of obsession, something that has impacted Shallan in a very personal, very traumatic way. I don't think that's the kind of person Adolin is.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nebty

[Aleksiel]

45 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Yes. As I said multiple times, Brandon isn't above using tropes. He stated that he isn't against tropes, but he would take them and spin them to show them in a new light. Tropes are tropes for a reason. If the author is great like Brandon, he can make out of the most boring trope, a great story. 

Kadolin confirmed.

(What )

[mariapapadia she/her]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

Kadolin confirmed.

(What )

I would literally laugh so hard if that were to happen. Brandon would be the ultimate trolling master 

[Nebty]

I think one of the big fears around a potential love triangle is that whoever is left is going to be negatively impacted (as is frequently the case in love triangles). But wouldn't it be great if everybody figured out their feelings, talked it out, and it was fine? No heartbreaking drama, no hissy-fits, just three really good friends deciding that, whatever happens, they're all going to stay friends.

Personally, I think that would be a pretty good twist on the love triangle trope.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Nebty

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Nebty said:

I think one of the big fears around a potential love triangle is that whoever is left is going to be negatively impacted (as is frequently the case in love triangles). But wouldn't it be great if everybody figured out their feelings, talked it out, and it was fine? No heartbreaking drama, no hissy-fits, just three really good friends deciding that, whatever happens, they're all going to stay friends.

Personally, I think that would be a pretty good twist on the love triangle trope.

I agree. I would like that. I don‘t think it is realistic right now, but we‘ll see where it goes.

[mariapapadia she/her]

9 minutes ago, Nebty said:

I think one of the big fears around a potential love triangle is that whoever is left is going to be negatively impacted (as is frequently the case in love triangles). But wouldn't it be great if everybody figured out their feelings, talked it out, and it was fine? No heartbreaking drama, no hissy-fits, just three really good friends deciding that, whatever happens, they're all going to stay friends.

Personally, I think that would be a pretty good twist on the love triangle trope.

I actually expect this to happen. I will expect some conflict, but not a crazy love drama. I have complete faith that Brandon won't trash his characters in such a way and whatever the conclusion will be it will be written in a satisfying way 

Edited October 1, 2017 by mariapapadia

[geralt]

50 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I wouldn't be surprised, if she would do that now. I can only hope, that Kaladin will see through it. Perhaps through Syl.

If Shallan took on one of her personas in front of Kaladin, I reckon he would definitely notice something was amiss as he seems quite perceptive to that kind of thing. For example, I remember there being a scene in WoR where Shallan and Adolin are talking to each other in a carriage with Kaladin being there and he immediately picks up that at one point she was hiding/faking her emotions. 

Also, in a way Shallan's "split personalities" are very similar to what Kaladin used to do when he became the wretch to avoid feeling emotional pain, so he can probably relate.

[Dreamstorm]

15 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

I would literally laugh so hard if that were to happen. Brandon would be the ultimate trolling master 

I would squeal in utter delight. #kadolinforever

Edited October 1, 2017 by Dreamstorm