How similar is Allomantic Mist compared to Surgebinding Stormlight?

[atiummisting17]

Specifically, since they're so similar could they be used by each others magical systems without using magical hacks?

Edited September 28, 2017 by atiummisting17

[+robardin]

I think they're pretty dissimilar.

We don't know nearly as much yet about Surgebinding as we do about Allomancy, but for starters, Surgebinding requires either a spren bond or an Honorblade, and spren can't really travel off of Roshar since they're of the Cognitive Realm.

On the other hand, Stormlight appears to be raw enough Investiture that it can substitute for at least one other kind of non-Roshar-specific Investiture required, as we see from a Returned from Nathlis being able to use it to fuel himself to live (though not, as yet, to do Awakening).

What'd be interesting is to find out if an Allomancer who moved to Roshar could bond a spren. Per WoB, we've already seen Hoid use Allomancy on Roshar (most likely the powder he dumped in his own drink when meeting Shallan was some kind of metal - brass or bronze, would be my guess?), and Demoux was at the Purelake, though as an Atium Misting he's not very useful lately on the magical side, unless Marsh or Harmony were feeling very generous. [EDIT: just noticed your user name/board handle. Bummer, dude.]

But, imagine if a full Mistborn, or a really badass Twinborn like Wax, were to show up on Roshar and pick up the Windrunner Honorblade. I'd assume he could use it.

And who knows, perhaps a compounder like Miles Hundredlives could produce surplus innate Investiture to the point where he could fuel his Surges with it even without Stormlight.

If so, the question of "Did the Lord Ruler know about the Cosmere" gets really interesting. "TLR with an Honorblade kicking chull during a Weeping when everyone else is low on Stormlight" just might be the most unbalanced "Who Would Win In A Fight" matchup imaginable that didn't involve a Shard. (I think even Hoid might be terrified!)

 

Edited September 28, 2017 by robardin

[Tsidqiyah]

Cross use of Investiture is like trying to use North American electronics in Europe. I.E. it is not going to work without an adapter. So to answer the question I think we need to look at the two investitures (p.s. selish magic systems are analogous DC batteries; while Roshar, Scadrial and Nalthis are analogous to AC wall outlets)

Scadrial: Using (burning, store/tap, spiky) metals are like a key opening a channel for investiture from Harmony in the spiritual realm to the user. The type of METAL lenses (catalyzes) the investiture for a specific purpose

Roshar: Investiture is somehow drawn from Honor’s dispersed reminants (maybe also from Cultivation to some extent) in the spiritual and cognitive realms via the Highstorms. This investiture is then captured in gem stones and breathed in by someone with a bond. The Honorblade BOND or Spren BOND lenses (catalyzes) the investiture into specific surges.

Allomancers do not normally use the mists in fact we have only seen one or two do it. I don’t think just anybody can do it, Harmony/Preservation has to want you to use his power directly. As such I don’t think a radiant can use the mist. Alternately allomancers do not use investiture directly as such I don’t believe Stormlight can be used to fuel alomancy.

t should be noted that with the exception of Hoid the only cross use we have seen is direct to direct exchanges. (I.E. Stormlight instead of Breath). Hoid has/had Laresium. So his cross use is not surprising.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Tsidqiyah

[+robardin]

On 9/28/2017 at 1:49 PM, Tsidqiyah said:

Alternately allomancers do not use investiture directly as such I don’t believe Stormlight can be used to fuel alomancy.

t should be noted that with the exception of Hoid the only cross use we have seen is direct to direct exchanges. (I.E. Stormlight instead of Breath). Hoid has/had Laresium. So his cross use is not surprising.

Actually, the Metallic Arts are very portable - the most portable of what we've seen so far.

Using Allomancy taps into the power of Preservation itself - which is an action of a Spiritual Realm that knows not a limitation of distance or location.

Feruchemy is innate to the Feruchemist, and not bound to being on Scadrial itself.

And we already have multiple WoB that Hemalurgy would work everywhere in the Cosmere and could steal other magic systems' powers, because like Allomancy, the mechanism by which it works is to tap into the power of Ruin at the level of the Spiritual Realm.

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

@robardin I don't think we need to use TLR for this anymore, seeing as we have a second Fullborn who DOES know about the Cosmere. And he would totally do what you just suggested if he could get ahold of an Honor blade (I'm thinking he would prefer the Lightweaver/Dustbringer/Elsecaller blades though. Iron and steel give you something close to Windrunning already.)

[Calderis]

The mists are the essence of Preservation. Stormlight may exist in a similar for, but it could not do what the mists do with a hack. 

The metals in Allomancy act as a gateway to allow Preservation's investiture to flow into an allomancer. Stormlight may be able to be hacked to fuel Allomancy, but what that would involve is beyond me. By itself though, trying to fuel Allomancy should be no different than trying to use it to fuel Awakening. 

[Tsidqiyah]

On 9/29/2017 at 4:13 PM, robardin said:

Actually, the Metallic Arts are very portable - the most portable of what we've seen so far.

Using Allomancy taps into the power of Preservation itself - which is an action of a Spiritual Realm that knows not a limitation of distance or location.

Feruchemy is innate to the Feruchemist, and not bound to being on Scadrial itself.

And we already have multiple WoB that Hemalurgy would work everywhere in the Cosmere and could steal other magic systems' powers, because like Allomancy, the mechanism by which it works is to tap into the power of Ruin at the level of the Spiritual Realm.

 

I wasn't trying to say they weren't portable BUT just as you said Preservation powers the Metalic arts and as such i don't think one could use Stormlight to do so. I suspect if you could get your spren off world you could use surges anywhere as well ... if you also need the stormlight though.

[Kingsdaughter613]

They are similar in that they are both gaseous investiture. Breath is too. Perpendicularities are liquid and the God metals and Shard blades are solid.

[Hyarmenatan]

On 1.10.2017 at 8:14 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

seeing as we have a second Fullborn who DOES know about the Cosmere

Who is this second Fullborn? 1st was Rashek, but who is second? Where do we see him?

[Kingsdaughter613]

BOM spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier has become one somehow... 

He would definately grab an honor blade if he could get ahold of one.

[+robardin]

On 10/2/2017 at 11:01 AM, Tsidqiyah said:

I wasn't trying to say they weren't portable BUT just as you said Preservation powers the Metalic arts and as such i don't think one could use Stormlight to do so. I suspect if you could get your spren off world you could use surges anywhere as well ... if you also need the stormlight though.

But an Allomancer on Roshar wouldn't need Stormlight to "power" his/her Allomancy. The "burning" of metals isn't fueling the magic so much as opening a Spiritual channel to Preservation to make the power work.

Allomancy is more like using AonDor. Once the "gateway" or "channel" to the Shardic power is established - drawing the Aon for an Elantrian, or burning a metal for an Allomancer - and where the ability to do so in the first place is determined by one's "Spiritweb" or "Spiritual DNA" (sDNA), the user can draw the power directly from the Shard (pull in the Investiture) and direct its effect.

Because AonDor has its Shardic power "stuffed" in the Cognitive Realm, due to Odium's handiwork, AonDor is heavily location based, but the power of Allomancy (and Hemalurgy) are drawn at the Spiritual level and will work for the user equally well anywhere in the Cosmere. No "Investiture conversion" required.

Surgebinding needs a "spren-plug" to access, and then draws power not directly from a Shard but instead on "stores" of the Shardic power (Investiture) condensed, if you will, as Stormlight. That's specific to Surgebinding, that it draws not on Honor (or Cultivation... or Odium?) directly, but indirectly, through Stormlight. And it's heavily implied that before the Splintering of Honor, the Heralds wielded the Honorblades using Investiture directly channeled from Honor, rather than using Stormlight as Szeth did (which required far more Stormlight than a Surgebinder operating via a Nahel bond).

I think we'll eventually find that this has to do with the "blended" nature of Surgebinding, and also something to do with the fact (? - as written in the Ars Arcanum) that highstorms on Roshar existed before Shards arrived to the planet, as did some kinds of or some specific spren.

[Tsidqiyah]

Ah! @robardin I completely agree with you. The normal use of Allomancy would work on Roshar (or anywhere) without issue.

My previous comments were on how Vin super-powers Allomancy with the Mists directly. Allomancers would not be able to use stormlight the same way, and Surgebinders would not be able to use the mists to power their surges (or breath, or Taldianian Sunlight) even if they somehow brought their spren with them. Now if you found the right hack all options are likely possible.

 

As before any Allomancer with their metals can go and come from any world without issue. they just would need a hack to super-charge off world.

Surgebinders on the otherhand will need both stormlight and their spren to use their powers without major hacks (still might need a major one to get the spren off world) but if they did get their spren and few infused spheres off world I suspect there would be no differences in their powers. Though the WOB about Aons going to Roshar granting different Surges could be interpreted to imply there would be differences on each world,

 

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/2/2017 at 10:01 AM, Tsidqiyah said:

Preservation powers the Metallic arts and as such I don't think one could use Stormlight to do so.

The WoB says hi.

Quote

Q: Can Stormlight be used to fuel Allomancy like the mist in the Mistborn trilogy?
 
A: This is possible.

Doesn't necessarily make it easy, but it is definitively doable.

[Tsidqiyah]

On 10/14/2017 at 6:49 PM, The One Who Connects said:

The WoB says hi.

Doesn't necessarily make it easy, but it is definitively doable.

THANK YOU!

I wonder if the opposite is also true then.

 

So my initial thought that cross-Investiture use would be similar to cross regional use of appliances is reasonable.