Is It Right For Dead Shardblades To Be Wielded?

[Stormrunner1730]

Per the topic title, I'm curious if people think it's morally "right" for people to be wielding dead Shardblades in battle?  It's something I've kind of been think of lately as I'm re-reading WOK.  It seems kind of wrong for Dalinar and Adolin to be swinging around a dead spren.  That being said, if they didn't wield their dead shardblades, Szeth probably would have killed both of them in WOR and neither would have stood a chance against Eshonai.  I more just want to see what people think of this in general than take a particular stance on it (besides what I said above).

[Velvet Thunder he/him]

They don't know they are dead spren. To them, they are powerful weapons in a time of conflicts. The circumstances don't allow it to be moral or immoral, as to them it is material item and nothing more. If, when they find out what they truly are, they still use them, then we can discuss whether they are morally just or not. In many instances you can claim that they should have researched more, been more aware or asked more questions, etc. However in this situation, the knowledge has been lost and there is no one to ask (known). What else are they to think?

Now, knowing what they are, do I think it is right to use them? It depends on the scenario. 

In a general sense? IMO, no. Would you carry around a sharpened thigh bone of a dead guy as a weapon? Despite the fact it makes for an excellent stabbing implement? No, especially if it offends those of whom you wish to remain in good thought of. (i.e. Spren hate the thought). HOWEVER, if you are backed into a corner, fighting for your life and you need a weapon, look around and find that bone spear, you're going to use that thing and use it well. Hell, the relatives (spren in this instance) might even find it comforting that their dead relative still managed to protect after their demise. It's all about situation and perspective.

Well, that or i'm an overly analytical person with high empathy yet low sympathy levels.  

[Stormrunner1730]

23 minutes ago, Velvet Thunder said:

They don't know they are dead spren. To them, they are powerful weapons in a time of conflicts. The circumstances don't allow it to be moral or immoral, as to them it is material item and nothing more. If, when they find out what they truly are, they still use them, then we can discuss whether they are morally just or not. In many instances you can claim that they should have researched more, been more aware or asked more questions, etc. However in this situation, the knowledge has been lost and there is no one to ask (known). What else are they to think?

Now, knowing what they are, do I think it is right to use them? It depends on the scenario. 

In a general sense? IMO, no. Would you carry around a sharpened thigh bone of a dead guy as a weapon? Despite the fact it makes for an excellent stabbing implement? No, especially if it offends those of whom you wish to remain in good thought of. (i.e. Spren hate the thought). HOWEVER, if you are backed into a corner, fighting for your life and you need a weapon, look around and find that bone spear, you're going to use that thing and use it well. Hell, the relatives (spren in this instance) might even find it comforting that their dead relative still managed to protect after their demise. It's all about situation and perspective.

Well, that or i'm an overly analytical person with high empathy yet low sympathy levels.  

That makes sense.  I forgot to think of it from the perspective of Dalinar and co. not knowing that the Shardblades are dead spren (although I think that will change in Oathbringer).  I would say that the second paragraph of your answer is pretty on point.  Obviously it would depend on the situation as you said.  But it's an interesting conundrum to think about.  

[anna she/her]

Like a lot of things in our world, I think the answer is "it depends".  If the wielder is trying to live up to the ideals of the Radiant who initially made the sword, then why not?  But if that person is trying to work against what the Radiant's stood for then it might be wrong.

[Nymeros]

16 hours ago, Velvet Thunder said:

MO, no. Would you carry around a sharpened thigh bone of a dead guy as a weapon? Despite the fact it makes for an excellent stabbing implement? No, 

Eh? If the dead guy was aactually a spirit from another realm of existence who transformed his thigh bone into a magic sword specifically to empower humanity to fight? Yeah id swing that thigh bone sword.

 

To answer the OP......yes.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

If I recall correctly, summoning dead Shardblades is basically the same as torturing the dead spren. So... yeah, that is immoral, if you are aware of the effects.

[Nymeros]

35 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

If I recall correctly, summoning dead Shardblades is basically the same as torturing the dead spren. So... yeah, that is immoral, if you are aware of the effects.

Torture?

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Just now, Nymeros said:

Torture?

I think I read somewhere that it pains the dead spren to be summoned as Shardblades. Take it with a grain of salt though. 

[Toby_H]

As others have pointed out, if the Shardbearer does not know the effects of his actions, no it is not immoral or unethical... Though it may still have effects or consequences...

 

If summoning a Shard Blade is torturing the "dead" spren, then of course it should not be done. Though I'm not aware that it is, nor are our in story Shardbearers.

 

If summoning the blade of a "dead" spren is not torture, and the Shardbearer is aware it is a dead spren, it is my opinion that it is not immoral to use it. 

 

My morality says it is not okay to torture, or selfishly cause harm. But my morality does not say I may not utilize bodily remains to serve a noble purpose. Though its typically a little grosser than I'm willing to go.

 

Once I'm dead, if you're ever fighting a noble cause near my corpse and need a thigh bone for the win, please feel free to use mine.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Toby_H
Spelling corrections, darn auto correct!

[Landis963 he/him]

20 minutes ago, Toby_H said:

If summoning the blade of a "dead" sperm is not torture, and the Shardbearer is aware it is a dead sperm, it is my opinion it is not immoral to use it. 

Apropos of nothing, you may need to check your autocorrect.  

[Scriptorian he/him]

Granted, I'm not sure we have explicit confirmation that using dead shardblade causes the spren pain...but the cries of agony that a surgebinder hears upon touching a blade would seem to corroborate the theory. Also the process of summoning one is described as bringing the spren back from the dead "a little". That doesn't sound particularly pleasant to me. 

With this in mind, I can only see a few limited edge cases where I would consider using one to be moral. Perhaps wielding it in direct defense of innocents...and then only because the spren itself would might have agreed (depending on the type of spren I guess). The other case is if you are using it with the active intent of reviving it (very hard to do) and since we only have theories on how that might be done, this's iffy. Really, its all iffy. 

But I think it's safe to say that using a dead shardblade is not pleasant for the spren. 

[Everstorm Entropy he/him]

It's funny (well, in a morbid kind of way) the direct parallel between Kaladin wearing the corpses of Parshendi into battle and him wielding a dead spren as a weapon.  Both are only really wrong in the context of who is offended.  The only difference is it's a spren screaming in his head, not a Parshendi.

I think using a dead Shardblade is only wrong because the spren seem to think it's wrong.  Without Kaladin's growing bond with Syl causing him to feel (at first) nauseated around Shardblades and eventually hearing the screaming in his head, the Shardblade is just another tool of war.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

I'm I really don't think we know enough of the experiences of the dead spren to know. Does a spren in an unbounded blade still scream in agony? Do bonded blades that aren't summoned scream? Depending on the answers, it could be better for the blades to be used. 

I believe that it is wrong to use the blades against people, but not against Voidbringers. Not because of the spren themselves, but because of the necessity of the living. 

[Hawkido]

If I were a soldier in a war and I died and one of my comrades threw my corpse on a grenade instead of throwing their own living body on it, I would be proud that even in death I was somehow able to save the lives of my fellows.  I can also see how people of a certain mindset would be disturbed by such an action, but usually corpses cannot win a war.  only the living can... Life before Death.

[Lidolas he/him]

I'm an organ donor because I want to do some good even after I die.  However, my stance might change if I continued to feel pain while my liver is being used...  I think that is what it really depends on, if the spren are really in pain.  It could be an echo of their screams that only Radiants here.  Or maybe only when they are held by Radiants do the spren become not-quite-dead enough to scream.  Maybe muggles, who can't hold stormlight, can't bring the spren close enough to life to scream.

Syl and Stormfather have been clear on their view.  I have a vague memory of Pattern saying something about them, but I can't remember when or what he said.  As a cryptic, it seems he'd be logical enough to be ok with using them.  Any other spren voiced an opinion on dead blades?

[Kier he/him]

On 9/27/2017 at 8:19 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

I think I read somewhere that it pains the dead spren to be summoned as Shardblades. Take it with a grain of salt though. 

The only thing that I have found is that When you summon a shard blade you actually are reviving the Dead shard blade a bit. Giving it a kind of mini life from its entrapment. So I would say that it is not painful nor torture to summon them. 

[Starla]

1 hour ago, Kier said:

The only thing that I have found is that When you summon a shard blade you actually are reviving the Dead shard blade a bit. Giving it a kind of mini life from its entrapment. So I would say that it is not painful nor torture to summon them. 

I don't know, that sounds like torture to me. It takes ten heartbeats to revive the spren enough for the blade to manifest, the spren is screaming while it is semi-alive, then it is killed again when the blade is dismissed. Revived temporarily then killed over and over for thousands of years. Combine this with Syl and Stormfather's reactions to dead spren blades, and it sounds pretty inhumane.

Likewise, I have concerns about the spren trapped in fabrials. What is their level of awareness or sentience? Are they killed when they are trapped, or are they imprisoned alive? I know they are not nearly as aware as the nahel bond spren, but I still worry for their well-being.

I realize the shardbearers and fabrial-makers don't fully understand spren and the possible harm they might be causing to sentient beings, but I would hope they would carefully consider their actions when they find out. Unfortunately, I have a feeling many won't care about the spren.

[Yata he/him]

On 29/9/2017 at 1:10 AM, Starla said:

Likewise, I have concerns about the spren trapped in fabrials. What is their level of awareness or sentience? Are they killed when they are trapped, or are they imprisoned alive? I know they are not nearly as aware as the nahel bond spren, but I still worry for their well-being.

I realize the shardbearers and fabrial-makers don't fully understand spren and the possible harm they might be causing to sentient beings, but I would hope they would carefully consider their actions when they find out. Unfortunately, I have a feeling many won't care about the spren.

A Spren in a Fabrial is fine, the not sapient Spren are not aware enough to judge their new position. Yeah they are in a gemstone but it's not unpleasant or something like that...it's just a change for them

[Starla]

11 hours ago, Yata said:

A Spren in a Fabrial is fine, the not sapient Spren are not aware enough to judge their new position. Yeah they are in a gemstone but it's not unpleasant or something like that...it's just a change for them

Thanks for that, I'll sleep better at night. 

[IllNsickly he/him]

On 9/27/2017 at 9:19 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

I think I read somewhere that it pains the dead spren to be summoned as Shardblades. Take it with a grain of salt though. 

Every time someone who is bonded with a Spren touches the Blade of a dead spren, they hear screaming.

Yes, torture for the Spren to summon their Blade.