[OB] Shallan is Insane - and I can prove it.

[aeromancer he/him]

Shallan Davar is insane. Now, I know the first reaction of many of you would be to point out that, yes, of course she’s insane. It’s a requirement for the Knights Radiant. I mean, after all, Syl says in Words of Radiance that’s how they [Knights Radiants] all were, silly’ to Kaladin’s complaint that he was ‘broken’. None of current Knight Radiants that we know of (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, Lift) are shining examples of perfect mental stability. Also, in Shallan’s defense, she is guilty of both patricide and matricide, so you can’t expect her to be perfectly sane, can you? Which is fine, I don’t. Kaladin's an emotional wreck. Shallan's an emotional wreck. It’s a requirement for the Knights Radiant to have undergone some form of mental anguish. So, why am I talking here?

Well, simply put, Shallan’s insanity is getting worse because she’s a Knight Radiant. Whereas Kaladin is getting better, Shallan is just getting worse as a direct result of her Ideals and her Surges. Let me explain why I think that.

As revealed in Chapter Fifteen of Oathbringer, Shallan cannot emotionally use her Shardblade because of the truth she was forced to admit for her Second Ideal, that she killed her mother with Pattern. Therefore, to get around the emotional scars, Shallan creates a new personality, Brightness Radiant, to fight in her place instead. Now, while this may seem innocent enough, and one could argue it’s no different from the pen names that we Sharders use on the Shard, it’s not. Not at all.

To explain why, let’s take a step back and talk about the human mind, more specifically psychology, more specifically Jungian psychology, most specifically archetypes. Carl Jung, based on the work of Sigmund Freud, claimed that the human mind is made up ‘archetypes’. Now, I’m just going to skim the basics, feel free to look around for a more in-depth analysis elsewhere on the internet. I also must admit to having a cursory knowledge of the subjects, so if you know more and I made a mistake, I apologize.

Archetypes can be described as the building blocks of personality. A person is composed of dozens of these ‘archetypes’ each slightly modified and relating together differently to create the full spectrum of personality. This is why we have many common character types across many civilizations stories. For example, there’s always the ‘warrior’, the ‘hero’, the ‘wise man’, the ‘mentor’ (which sometimes overlaps with the ‘wise man’), etc. These form a ‘persona’ or your exterior personality.

From this chapter, it’s kind of clear that the alternative personalities Shallan is creating are based off of these archetypes. This makes sense, as character archetypes are one of the basic tools of all writers, so it’d be natural to create personalities using them. Veil seems to be based off the ‘trickster’ archetype, and ‘Brightness Radiant’ seems to be based of the ‘knight’ archetype, perhaps with a handful of ‘stoic’ thrown in. It’s a bit early to tell for sure.

The problem now arises that Shallan is separated from these archetypes of hers. Brightness Radiant speaks like Shallan is a different person, and Shallan can’t wield her Shardblade at all. They''re separate. In Jungian psychology, this is a huge problem. In Jungian psychology, one of the reasons for insanity comes from the idea that these archetypes aren’t lining up. In order to treat mental disorders, Jungian psychologists will attempt to have the subject comes to terms with themselves, ending in catharsis.

Now, this should be what the Ideal of the Lightweavers force Shallan to do, but it's not, because of it's own Surges. Shallan can’t ignore the truths of her paths, so she must come to grips with them for an eventual catharsis. But she isn’t. She’s using her Surge of Illumination to create these false personas that are Veil and Brightness Radiant. But by doing so, she’s locking herself out of catharsis and forcing her emotions aside to where she won’t have to deal with them. By using Veil and Brightness Radiant, Shallan is repressing her weakness and flaws. She isn’t trying to be fixed. She’s just trying to create an illusion that she is. If this continues, Shallan might get even worse, possibly developing multiple personalities, which would (I must admit) make for a fascinating read.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the subject, and I have an unbearable tendency to overthink things. I would love to hear the rest of your thoughts on this.

[Guest]

Great write up. Exactly my sentiments about it. Shallan is going down a very dangerous route. Essentially segregating her personality in these different personas, plucking the "real" Shallan, the sum of her personas, to something next to nothing.

[Tai'shar-Malkier]

My guess is that she is going to need to confront this new lie she is telling herself in order to progress as a radiant, probably towards the end of this book. However before that happens she is going to begin losing her grip on reality, separating herself into more and more different people in order to hide from her problems

[Blightsong he/him]

From the WoR back cover:

Quote

It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit.  Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves.  They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures.

 

[ccstat he/him]

I agree with a lot of this, but I noticed that, especially towards the end of character 15, she was transitioning fairly smoothly on a gradient between Shallan and Radiant. That tells me that she hasn't completely compartmentalized the personalities. As I read it, the personas/archetypes are held separate but remain connected enough for her to eventually synthesize them cathartically. I'm expecting that process to take a long time and be a big part of her arc.

I also think it is important that she recognizes in the chapter that there are things Shallan can do that Radiant can't. So each alternate self gives her certain strengths explicitly at the cost of losing others. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by ccstat

[Jofwu he/him]

I expect Shallan's Oathbringer storyline will essentially involve her building more personas and getting worse in this respect. She's spoken a few Truths so far and it's left her splintered. Now that she can't hide from them, she has to partition them. But I think in the end she's going to come to a place where she has to accept herself as who she is. Her next Truth will relate to how she views herself. Essentially an acceptance of who she is.

Quote

"Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain." (WoR Chapter 12 epigraph)

I find it hard to believe that Shallan will fail to progress, so the only way is forward. Doesn't mean the road won't be bumpy though.

[Sliverofnone]

I agree with @Tai'shar-Malkier @jofwu. I imagine that Shallan's story arc will inevitably be to reconcile the personas/lies she has created to protect herself and to save the world. I think that the reason the Lightweavers speak truths is to ground their identity. She will have to grow has a person and radiant, and continue to speak truths about herself. If she doesn't progress, or becomes trapped in her illusions, denying her truths, this will break her oaths as a Lightweaver.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Sliverofnone

[OrangeJedi he/him]

Is anyone else thinking of Legion here? Also I love the idea of Shallan creating more and more identities for herself and then having a serious identity crises. Hopefully one the the lightweaver truths will help here with that. I wonder what personality she will come up with next? And if she will ever tell anyone her secrets?

[Argent he/him]

35 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Brightness Radiant speaks like Shallan is a different person

I assume you are referring to this bit?

Quote

Radiant put one foot forward, Blade lifted high in two hands beside her head.

“Hey,” Adolin said. “That’s not bad.”

“Shallan did spend quite a lot of time drawing you all.”

I am reasonably sure that's Pattern speaking here. 

As for the rest of your write-up... It's certainly one viable direction Shallan's character can go. Or this might be just a stepping stone for her self-discovery.

[ccstat he/him]

No, I'm quite sure that was Radiant speaking. And I've seen at least 12 other people commenting to say the same thing: Radiant refers to Shallan in the 3rd person.

Edited September 26, 2017 by ccstat

[Aminar]

She's not insane. She's traumatized. The difference is important. Shallan suffers from PTSD. Everything you're talking about falls under PTSD. 

What she's doing isn't more problematic than avoidance and repression. It's a step towards living with the Trauma. In order to deal with PTSD a person has to confront what they did/what happened to them(or around them) They have to confront the truth(this should seem familiar). Then they have to learn to live with that truth. 

Shallan's relevant trigger is her shardblade. Her trauma is killing her mother. 

(Also Jung's theories, while miles better than Freud's are still early work in the field and better as a historical reference than diagnostic criteria. The DSM will serve you better.) 

[Hischier]

5 minutes ago, Aminar said:

She's not insane. She's traumatized. The difference is important. Shallan suffers from PTSD. Everything you're talking about falls under PTSD. 

What she's doing isn't more problematic than avoidance and repression. It's a step towards living with the Trauma. In order to deal with PTSD a person has to confront what they did/what happened to them(or around them) They have to confront the truth(this should seem familiar). Then they have to learn to live with that truth. 

Shallan's relevant trigger is her shardblade. Her trauma is killing her mother. 

(Also Jung's theories, while miles better than Freud's are still early work in the field and better as a historical reference than diagnostic criteria. The DSM will serve you better.) 

Yeah, Freud is called the 'father of psychology', but most of his work is complete nonsense. It's like citing Aristotle when discussing chemistry.  

[Andy92]

33 minutes ago, ccstat said:

No, I'm quite sure that was Radiant speaking. And I've seen at least 12 other people commenting to say the same thing: Radiant refers to Shallan in the 3rd person.

I also assumed that was Radiant speaking of Shallan in the third person. Otherwise, I'd imagine Brandon would've added a "Pattern said" in there to clarify. That flow of conversation was between Radiant and Adolin. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Andy92

[Argent he/him]

41 minutes ago, ccstat said:

No, I'm quite sure that was Radiant speaking. And I've seen at least 12 other people commenting to say the same thing: Radiant refers to Shallan in the 3rd person.

 

7 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I also assumed that was Radiant speaking of Shallan in the third person. Otherwise, I'd imagine Brandon would've added a "Pattern said" in there to clarify. That flow of conversation was between Radiant and Adolin. 

It reads like it, but it doesn't make sense for Adolin to not comment on such a drastic change in speech pattern. I know everything, including Radiant's persona, points to it coming from her, but Adolin's (lack of) reaction is a big no-no for me here. I also don't recall Veil thinking about Shallan in such detached way.

[aeromancer he/him]

14 minutes ago, Argent said:

It reads like it, but it doesn't make sense for Adolin to not comment on such a drastic change in speech pattern. I know everything, including Radiant's persona, points to it coming from her, but Adolin's (lack of) reaction is a big no-no for me here. I also don't recall Veil thinking about Shallan in such detached way.

Just to quickly jump into this conversation, upon further review, I think it might be deliberately ambiguous. It doesn't quite fit into either Pattern or Brightness Radiant perfectly, which is odd because a good author like Brandon wouldn't leave such a statement without a tag. Unless, of course, this was a deliberate move on his part to see what the fanbase assumes, but even I'm not going to assume that. (Okay, I might. Fine. I think it's deliberately vague, and it's going to be nailed down when the published book comes out.)

 

42 minutes ago, Hischier said:

Yeah, Freud is called the 'father of psychology', but most of his work is complete nonsense. It's like citing Aristotle when discussing chemistry.  

I would disagree with that. Freud has some infamously horrible theories, but I kind of feel that they're all people talk about, and not all the actual contributions he made, like the idea behind the id, ego, superego which lead to the rise of Jungian psychology. Aminar mentions the DSM, which I deliberately left out. I would prefer if the DSM-V (current version) stay out of this, because unless you know how to use it, you can use it to diagnose anyone with some disorder or another. (I follow several classics signs of being a psychopath, by the way.)

 

58 minutes ago, Aminar said:

She's not insane. She's traumatized. The difference is important. Shallan suffers from PTSD. Everything you're talking about falls under PTSD. 

What she's doing isn't more problematic than avoidance and repression. It's a step towards living with the Trauma. In order to deal with PTSD a person has to confront what they did/what happened to them(or around them) They have to confront the truth(this should seem familiar). Then they have to learn to live with that truth. 

Shallan's relevant trigger is her shardblade. Her trauma is killing her mother. 

I can't expressly disagree with this, but that because we're not really disagreeing. You categorize Shallan's behavior over PTSD. Yes, all of Shallan's behavior stems from a central trauma, which is what PTSD is, but the behavior that I'm focusing on, multiple personality, is a coping mechanism use to deal with stress, and is not typically the behavior that people assume with PTSD, but is a result of it. It's quite possible (unfortunately) to go insane as a result of trauma, which seems to be what Shallan is doing.

I would also agree that if Shallan could avoid summoning her Shardblade, she'd be fine (well, not fine, but as fine as you could be repressing those kinds of memories). Problem is, Shallan doesn't have the luxury of having that trigger, should she chose to be a Knight Radiant. If what you're saying is true, it's kind of worse than my prediction of sustained multiple personalities, because triggers could cause a relapse, which would be bad.

Anyway, thanks all for the response. I don't have a good track record with some of my character analysis in the past, so I'm glad to see this works well for the most part.

[Argent he/him]

17 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Just to quickly jump into this conversation, upon further review, I think it might be deliberately ambiguous. It doesn't quite fit into either Pattern or Brightness Radiant perfectly, which is odd because a good author like Brandon wouldn't leave such a statement without a tag. Unless, of course, this was a deliberate move on his part to see what the fanbase assumes, but even I'm not going to assume that. (Okay, I might. Fine. I think it's deliberately vague, and it's going to be nailed down when the published book comes out.)

Yeah, I was chatting about this particular line with a few people on Discord, and I also think Brandon must've done it deliberately. It's something your beta readers will definitely catch, and so if you are ignoring their "this is confusing, Brandon!" feedback, you must have a good reason for it. What though, I can't imagine...

[Calderis he/him]

14 minutes ago, Argent said:

Yeah, I was chatting about this particular line with a few people on Discord, and I also think Brandon must've done it deliberately. It's something your beta readers will definitely catch, and so if you are ignoring their "this is confusing, Brandon!" feedback, you must have a good reason for it. What though, I can't imagine...

Another possibility that I haven't seen mentioned, that would play into Shallan's mental state, is that this is part of an unreliable narrator and the line wasn't actually spoken aloud. 

[kari-no-sugata]

With regards to what Shallan is doing with Veil and Brightness Radiant, I common problem I see with people talking about that is to treat them as permanent and maybe even uncontrollable personalities that sit along side Shallan. They are not. Shallan intentionally made them to solve specific problems. She is fully in control of them. They are completely subordinate. They are not "active" permanently. They do not become active involuntarily or accidentally. Shallan herself develops them as well.

If Shallan is insane for just that by itself then all method actors are insane.

Putting it another way: if nobody else can tell that Shallan is insane, is she still insane?

Pretty much all of her life Shallan has had to teach herself how to solve problems. Her extreme actions come from her being in a situation where she has to solve extreme problems. Her methods are not always the best but they work at least. She created Veil as a disguise to more safely infiltrate the Ghostbloods. She created Brightness Radiant so that she could bear to wield Pattern as a Shardblade. She does not need or use these personas on a day to day basis - as far as we know this chapter is the first time since her last POV chapter in WoR that she made use of Veil (maybe 10 days?). They are not a coping mechanism in the proper sense of the phrase (as I understand it).

I agree that it would be better for Shallan to fully confront her problems. However, she has the minor constraint of having to save the world and doesn't have the luxury to come to terms with her problems in peace. It would probably be better for her to admit her problems to others and in fact that's what I suspect her final Ideal will be about - telling the people she cares about all the horrible things she's done. She's not ready for that yet. So long as Shallan does not overly use or abuse her personas I think that will give her the necessary breathing space in the short term to come to terms with her past. Also, I suspect Brightness Radiant will be useful in general - Shallan will probably have to fight and kill people. That's not something that Shallan finds at all easy to do. It's also a problem all soldiers face. At least this way, she can handle a crisis situation and be in control - and afterwards she can go back to being Shallan.

Incidentally, I think with time Shallan will be able to deal with Pattern again normally since she seems to care about him and hates the idea of killing him. Her relationship with him seems to be slowly improving and I'd say that is a good sign.

With regards to her Oaths making her situation worse, I'm not sure I can agree. I can see where this is coming from but at least now she can think about her mother without her mind going blank. She can start to heal properly. Also, her hatred of the blade is not a new thing - quoting from "Blossoms and Cake" in WoR:

Quote

She felt numb. She wanted to dismiss the Blade, hide it. It was terrible.

She did not. She crushed those emotions and hid them deep within. At the moment, she needed something strong to hold to, and the weapon served that purpose. Even if she hated it.

 

This aspect is worse now I agree. But considering everything, I think the net benefit is positive.

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, aeromancer said:

Just to quickly jump into this conversation, upon further review, I think it might be deliberately ambiguous. It doesn't quite fit into either Pattern or Brightness Radiant perfectly, which is odd because a good author like Brandon wouldn't leave such a statement without a tag. Unless, of course, this was a deliberate move on his part to see what the fanbase assumes, but even I'm not going to assume that. (Okay, I might. Fine. I think it's deliberately vague, and it's going to be nailed down when the published book comes out.)

 

I would disagree with that. Freud has some infamously horrible theories, but I kind of feel that they're all people talk about, and not all the actual contributions he made, like the idea behind the id, ego, superego which lead to the rise of Jungian psychology. Aminar mentions the DSM, which I deliberately left out. I would prefer if the DSM-V (current version) stay out of this, because unless you know how to use it, you can use it to diagnose anyone with some disorder or another. (I follow several classics signs of being a psychopath, by the way.)

 

I can't expressly disagree with this, but that because we're not really disagreeing. You categorize Shallan's behavior over PTSD. Yes, all of Shallan's behavior stems from a central trauma, which is what PTSD is, but the behavior that I'm focusing on, multiple personality, is a coping mechanism use to deal with stress, and is not typically the behavior that people assume with PTSD, but is a result of it. It's quite possible (unfortunately) to go insane as a result of trauma, which seems to be what Shallan is doing.

I would also agree that if Shallan could avoid summoning her Shardblade, she'd be fine (well, not fine, but as fine as you could be repressing those kinds of memories). Problem is, Shallan doesn't have the luxury of having that trigger, should she chose to be a Knight Radiant. If what you're saying is true, it's kind of worse than my prediction of sustained multiple personalities, because triggers could cause a relapse, which would be bad.

Anyway, thanks all for the response. I don't have a good track record with some of my character analysis in the past, so I'm glad to see this works well for the most part.

That's not multiple personalities. It's... a completely separate thing and bears no real similarity with how dissociative identity disorder manifests in real life. It's more just "fake it till you make it" augmented by magic. On that I have to say you need to do way more research. I know Brandon has done plenty. 

[mariapapadia she/her]

@kari-no-sugata How is she improving her relationship with Pattern if she's not able to accept him as the blade ? And she creates a different version of herself in order to deal with it? We saw in her first chapter that she was telling herself Pattern and the blade are two separate things.. That doesn't sound like accepting the situation or like she's on the way to make peace with it.

How long before these personas aren't under her control ? I agree right now is not that difficult for her to manage them, but what will happen when she will make more? It's not sustainable to make a diffrent persona for every problem she's afraid to face.

This is unrelated to your arguments, but I would hate for Shallan to become a warrior. There are plenty of those in the book and I think part of her charm and what I love about her is that she can be a hero and help thanks to her wits and talents. I don't want to see another Vin

[kari-no-sugata]

24 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

@kari-no-sugata How is she improving her relationship with Pattern if she's not able to accept him as the blade ? And she creates a different version of herself in order to deal with it? We saw in her first chapter that she was telling herself Pattern and the blade are two separate things.. That doesn't sound like accepting the situation or like she's on the way to make peace with it.

Compare Shallan's last interaction with Pattern in WoR. Then see the difference between that and the first batch of Shallan chapters. Then compare those to the latest. Each shows progress, I would say (after her relationship got knocked back a lot). It's going to take Shallan time to fully comes to terms with it.

 

24 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

How long before these personas aren't under her control ? I agree right now is not that difficult for her to manage them, but what will happen when she will make more? It's not sustainable to make a diffrent persona for every problem she's afraid to face.

Why is it the default assumption that the personas will go out of control? Is it even a safe assumption that she will make more and more personas that she uses regularly? If so, why? She doesn't create them just for fun but to solve really difficult problems - problems that Shallan cannot handle. Those don't turn up very often as she's very good at problem solving. It's not like she's inventing a new persona just to do the chores or something.

 

24 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

This is unrelated to your arguments, but I would hate for Shallan to become a warrior. There are plenty of those in the book and I think part of her charm and what I love about her is that she can be a hero and help thanks to her wits and talents. I don't want to see another Vin

Me too. I see Shallan as basically being the opposite of Vin, so far. But she has already fought and killed Tyn, for example. That doesn't make her a warrior. Learning to fight with a Shardblade enough at least she she can use it for self-defence wouldn't make her a warrior either. I really doubt Shallan is going to make a habit of fighting but it would seem rather dumb for her to avoid it completely.

[Aminar]

2 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

@kari-no-sugata How is she improving her relationship with Pattern if she's not able to accept him as the blade ? And she creates a different version of herself in order to deal with it? We saw in her first chapter that she was telling herself Pattern and the blade are two separate things.. That doesn't sound like accepting the situation or like she's on the way to make peace with it.

How long before these personas aren't under her control ? I agree right now is not that difficult for her to manage them, but what will happen when she will make more? It's not sustainable to make a diffrent persona for every problem she's afraid to face.

This is unrelated to your arguments, but I would hate for Shallan to become a warrior. There are plenty of those in the book and I think part of her charm and what I love about her is that she can be a hero and help thanks to her wits and talents. I don't want to see another Vin

The personas aren't seperate. They're characters. Like how when Brandon writes Shallan he mentally becomes Shallan for a time. She's never going to control Brandon. Or like how "writing case notes Aminar" is different from "meeting clients Aminar" is different from "At home with the wife Aminar". But augmented a little by magic(but really only by her illusions) 

Anything more is looking too far into what she's dealing with. Dissociative identity disorder works very differently, and Brandon is the kind of writer that does his research. Especially with a series where mental illness is a huge and intentional subtheme. 

[Subvisual Haze]

People are over reading a simple self-confidence trick of the mind that Shallan used to overcome her anxiety about a traumatic event.

Back in college I had social anxiety specific to public speaking.  I never truly got comfortable with public speaking due to my inherently perfectionist tendencies and over active imagination regarding things that could go wrong, but I did teach myself a silly psychological trick similar to what Shallan is doing here.  I merely "pretended" that I was a slightly different person, modifying my behavior and thought patterns to act more like a close friend who was extremely self-confident.  I never truly overcame my self-doubts, but I was able to temporarily "play a role" that allowed my mind to ignore the counterproductive anxious thoughts in my head.  This worked reasonably well for me, and based on cursory google searches a lot of other individuals use similar methods to deal with challenging situations.  Shallan's basically method acting a version of herself that is slightly more like Jasnah.

Assuming different roles/masks in different social settings is perfectly normal human behavior.  The way that you talk or act around your parents, your friends, at work, at church, around academic colleagues, when tutoring others, or when part of a very large crowd can all be extremely different.  That doesn't mean that you're "fake", it's adapting yourself to different social dynamics, a normal and healthy thing to do.

[Siaun Sanche she/her]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Assuming different roles/masks in different social settings is perfectly normal human behavior.  The way that you talk or act around your parents, your friends, at work, at church, around academic colleagues, when tutoring others, or when part of a very large crowd can all be extremely different.  That doesn't mean that you're "fake", it's adapting yourself to different social dynamics, a normal and healthy thing to do.

I agree with this. Also, assuming different roles to see how they work is something that's particularly pronounced among people around Shallan's age: they're the college kids who go from being goth for a few months to punk to something else. Brandon slightly exaggerates this by calling the different roles by different character names to highlight what's she doing, but I think that's a bit of dramatic license, not a sign of incipient madness.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Assuming different roles/masks in different social settings is perfectly normal human behavior.  The way that you talk or act around your parents, your friends, at work, at church, around academic colleagues, when tutoring others, or when part of a very large crowd can all be extremely different.  That doesn't mean that you're "fake", it's adapting yourself to different social dynamics, a normal and healthy thing to do.

There is a difference in changing the way you talk to someone and changing your complete personality... Look, no one is saying, that something like that never happens, but the point is, that Shallan isn't the most stable person. It could be dangerous for her.