Were the Ardents during/after the Recreance comprise of KR?

[ScavellTane]

My Theory:

The Recreance was a concerted effort by the KR to erase themselves.

At the time there has not been a Desolation for several millennia and the KR have begun to fight among themselves due to differing loyalties. Having been told by the Heralds that there would no longer be any Desolations, they probably believed that surgebinding were becoming too dangerous since their numbers were getting too numerous. Some of the Skybreakers remained to enforce the plan and the Heralds co-opted them to annihilated budding surgebinders. The Hierocracy happened due to the later Ardents being descendants of former KR and believed that they have a duty to guide the kingdoms. Thoughts?

Edited September 25, 2017 by ScavellTane

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

On 25/9/2017 at 9:51 AM, ScavellTane said:

My Theory:

The Recreance was a concerted effort by the KR to erase themselves.

At the time there has not been a Desolation for several millennia and the KR have begun to fight among themselves due to differing loyalties. Having been told by the Heralds that there would no longer be any Desolations, they probably believed that surgebinding were becoming too dangerous since their numbers were getting too numerous. Some of the Skybreakers remained to enforce the plan and the Heralds co-opted them to annihilated budding surgebinders. The Hierocracy happened due to the later Ardents being descendants of former KR and believed that they have a duty to guide the kingdoms. Thoughts?

That would be interesting. Howerver, 3 points:

1. I would almost like it if the Hierocracy was just greedy men wanting power, as it would show corruption and selfishness will inflitrate everything after some time
2.  I'm pretty sure the Skybreakers acted on their own and didn't tell anyone that they were remaining behind. Maybe Nale was behind their choice, but if he was he told them to keep it quiet.
3.  I suspect there is still something else. We have yet to see the entire reasoning on why the recreance happened

[Passion he/him]

I mostly disagree because from all we now about oathbringer it needs to have been caused by something which can really shake up the current radients dramatically. Mistakenly thinking the desolations are over would be meaningless to kal or any radient who discovers it

[Fulminato he/him]

On 25/9/2017 at 9:51 AM, ScavellTane said:

My Theory:

The Recreance was a concerted effort by the KR to erase themselves.

At the time there has not been a Desolation for several millennia and the KR have begun to fight among themselves due to differing loyalties. Having been told by the Heralds that there would no longer be any Desolations, they probably believed that surgebinding were becoming too dangerous since their numbers were getting too numerous. Some of the Skybreakers remained to enforce the plan and the Heralds co-opted them to annihilated budding surgebinders. The Hierocracy happened due to the later Ardents being descendants of former KR and believed that they have a duty to guide the kingdoms. Thoughts?

the ardentia is the vorin church after the hierocracy, before where priests, but we don't know the strucutre of the vorinism before they seek to sieze the power over roshar.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I like the theory, and it seems plausible enough. If the Sons of Honor managed to uncover this, they might be able to claim that the current KR are impostors or something.

[Calderis he/him]

Am I the only one who thinks Vorinism didn't exist prerecreance? 

I mean, there wouldn't have a been a distinction between lighteyes and dark. The gender segregation is due to Arts and Majesty, which all arose post Recreance... 

The role of the Ardent and Devotaries all seem to be predicated on the ideas if things formed after the Recreance, building off of what the Knights abandoned. 

I don't think there were ardent until after all of the former Knights were dead. 

[Wreith he/him]

Quote

"This act of great villainy went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time, many attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they withdrew, about two thousand made assault upon them, destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine."

From the WoR chap. 41 epigraph makes me wonder if maybe OP theory doesn't necessarily apply to all of the Radiants, but only the order that remained. 

Perhaps the rise of the ardentia was the great subterfuge.

Also, can someone point to why everyone seems to think the Skybreakers were the order to stay? There may be a perfectly good reason for the assumption, but I don't know what it is.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

20 minutes ago, Wreith said:

Also, can someone point to why everyone seems to think the Skybreakers were the order to stay? There may be a perfectly good reason for the assumption, but I don't know what it is.

It pertains to Edgedancer Spoilers, so if you haven't read that yet, you should read it and come back.

Of note, I do not consider the revelations in that book as sufficient evidence.

[Wreith he/him]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It pertains to Edgedancer Spoilers, so if you haven't read that yet, you should read it and come back.

Of note, I do not consider the revelations in that book as sufficient evidence.

I have read it and I don't consider that sufficient evidence either. (though I do need to read it again)

Was why I asked. thanks.

[ScavellTane]

 

On 10/3/2017 at 4:43 AM, Wreith said:

I have read it and I don't consider that sufficient evidence either. (though I do need to read it again)

Was why I asked. thanks.

Its because Mraize specifically mentions Heleran set out in search of them and not any other order.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ScavellTane

[ScavellTane]

On 9/30/2017 at 5:03 AM, Calderis said:

Am I the only one who thinks Vorinism didn't exist prerecreance? 

I mean, there wouldn't have a been a distinction between lighteyes and dark. The gender segregation is due to Arts and Majesty, which all arose post Recreance... 

The role of the Ardent and Devotaries all seem to be predicated on the ideas if things formed after the Recreance, building off of what the Knights abandoned. 

I don't think there were ardent until after all of the former Knights were dead. 

Some form of worship of the Heralds probably exists, just not the church and religion.

My theory is that the 'retired' KR kind of formed into the church/ardentia. When you vaguely look at it, the ardentia are kind of what the various orders were (scientists, artists, warriors, soulcasters, stormwardens). Although the church could have mirrored their organization based on the orders.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ScavellTane

[Wreith he/him]

3 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

 

Its because Mraize specifically mentions Heleran set out in search of them and not any other order.

That is a very interesting point, but I still don't take it as conclusive.

It could just as easily have been that Nale refounded them much later.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I realize that one order stuck around and all evidence we currently have points to the Skybreakers.

Everyone seems to take this point as given, but we debate every other seemingly obvious implication.

[ScavellTane]

And thus were the disturbances in the Revv topiarchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan'Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit such patronage.

And I believe this happened after the other orders disbanded.

[Wreith he/him]

3 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

And thus were the disturbances in the Revv topiarchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan'Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit such patronage.

And I believe this happened after the other orders disbanded.

The order of the epigraphs means that it doesn't.

The one you quote comes from ch5 pg17 of in-world Words of Radiance.

Several later chapters reference the KRs being together

And the "Secret that broke the Knights Radiant" was discovered later. See the ch38 epigraph

Quote

Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origen, Avena would not suggest.  -From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

and then ch40

Quote

That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. -From Words of Radiance, chapter 38, page 6

 

[ScavellTane]

Right, my bad.

Edited October 4, 2017 by ScavellTane

[thejopen27 he/him]

On 10/4/2017 at 8:41 AM, Wreith said:

That is a very interesting point, but I still don't take it as conclusive.

It could just as easily have been that Nale refounded them much later.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I realize that one order stuck around and all evidence we currently have points to the Skybreakers.

Everyone seems to take this point as given, but we debate every other seemingly obvious implication.

I think Nale refounded the Skybreakers fairly recently, that's why there doesn't appear to be any full Skybreaker members. I'm curious about the Stone Shamans. Szeth thinks something while talking to Nale at the end of WoR that I made me think the Stone Shamans might descend from the Radiants. I don't have the book with me to check what it was. 

I'm pretty sure the Hierocracy wasn't any better or worse than a normal government. I think they were the left over bureaucracy of the Radiants that evolved into a religion worshiping the Heralds after the Radiants left. They would be the only major power left in the vacuum of the Radiants, the servants, priests, and officials that worked with the Radiants. Then the landholders/nobility/warlords decided they were tired of bowing to priests and scribes and overthrew them and wrote them into history as villains, as victors often due. One of the repeated themes in the Stormlight Archive is the distortion of history by misunderstanding or deception.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

@The One Who Connects Seems like this is the most relevant place to put my thoughts.  @Rest of the thread, I've also had the thought that the Skybreakers are responsible for the cleansing of documents from the Hierocracy, though not in quite the same flavor as proposed in the OP. 

I have to admit, once I started digging in, I was incredibly disappointed at the lack of information available. I was hoping that with the advent of the arcanum I might be able to find some juicy WoB on the Hierocracy, or at least about the Sunmaker, but it seems that we're limited to what little on-screen discussion we've been given. I'm going to post everything I think is relevant in a spoiler tag (to save space) first, then reference as I go. @The One Who Connects, just want to give you a heads up, this is going to rely far more on supposition, selective interpretation of individual passages, and personal feelings than I would like. 

Adolin talks with Kadash

Spoiler

“No. But he is the Almighty’s guardian of this people, set to watch me and make certain I don’t rise above my station.” Kadash pursed his lips. “It is a delicate balance we walk, bright one. Do you know much of the Hierocracy, the War of Loss?”

“The church tried to seize control,” Adolin said, shrugging. “The priests tried to conquer the world—for its own good, they claimed.”

“That was part of it,” Kadash said. “The part we speak of most often. But the problem goes much deeper. The church back then, it clung to knowledge. Men were not in command of their own religious paths; the priests controlled the doctrine, and few members of the Church were allowed to know theology. They were taught to follow the priests. Not the Almighty or the Heralds, but the priests.”

He began walking, leading Adolin around the back rim of the temple chamber. They passed statues of the Heralds, five male, five female. In truth, Adolin knew very little of what Kadash was saying. He’d never had much of a mind for history that didn’t relate directly to the command of armies.

“The problem, bright one,” Kadash said, “was mysticism. The priests claimed that common men could not understand religion or the Almighty. Where there should have been openness, there was smoke and whispers. The priests began to claim visions and prophecies, though such things had been denounced by the Heralds themselves. Voidbinding is a dark and evil thing, and the soul of it was to try to divine the future.”

Adolin froze. “Wait, you’re saying—”

“Don’t get ahead of me please, bright one,” Kadash assured, turning back toward him. “When the priests of the Hierocracy were cast down, the Sunmaker made a point of interrogating them and going through their correspondences with one another. It was discovered that there had been no prophecies. No mystical promises from the Almighty. That had all been an excuse, fabricated by the priests to placate and control the people.”

Adolin frowned. “Where are you going with this, Kadash?”

“As close as I dare to the truth, bright one,” the ardent said. “As I cannot be as blunt as you.”

“You think my father’s visions are fabrications, then.”

“I would never accuse my highprince of lying,” Kadash said. “Or even of feebleness. But neither can I condone mysticism or prophecy in any form. To do so would be to deny Vorinism. The days of the priests are gone. The days of lying to the people, of keeping them in darkness, are gone. Now, each man chooses his own path, and the ardents help him achieve closeness to the Almighty through it. Instead of shadowed prophecies and pretend powers held by a few, we have a population who understand their beliefs and their relationship with their God.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (pp. 284-285). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

2

 

Jasnah's first scholarly work:

Spoiler

Research into times before the Hierocracy is frustratingly difficult, the book read. During the reign of the Hierocracy, the Vorin Church had near-absolute control over eastern Roshar. The fabrications they promoted— and then perpetuated as absolute truth— became ingrained in the consciousness of society. More disturbingly, modified copies of ancient texts were made, aligning history to match Hierocratic dogma.

...

The church of this era was suspicious of the Knights Radiant, the book read. Yet it relied upon the authority granted Vorinism by the Heralds. This created a dichotomy in which the Recreance, and the betrayal of the knights, was overemphasized. At the same time, the ancient knights— the ones who had lived alongside the Heralds in the shadowdays— were celebrated.

This makes it particularly difficult to study the Radiants and the place named Shadesmar. What is fact? What records did the church, in its misguided attempt to cleanse the past of perceived contradictions, rewrite to suit its preferred narrative? Few documents from the period survive that did not pass through Vorin hands to be copied from the original parchment into modern codices.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 65-66). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Jasnah speaking with Shallan

Spoiler

 “Very good indeed. My time in the Palanaeum was very useful, but also in some ways disappointing. While I confirmed my suspicions about the parshmen, I also found that many of the great library’s records bore the same signs of tampering as others I’d read. This ‘cleansing’ of history, removing direct references to Urithiru or the Radiants because they were embarrassments to Vorinism— it’s infuriating. And people ask me why I am hostile to the church! I need primary sources. And then, there are stories— ones I dare to believe— claiming that Urithiru was holy and protected from the Voidbringers. Maybe that was wishful fancy, but I am not too much a scholar to hope that something like that might be true.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 113). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

1

So, my reasoning is as follows, and I'm going to lay it all out there also in the hopes that you will correct any lingering incorrect assumptions that I'm holding onto from several years ago. I'm still operating under the belief that the other Herald in the prologue with Nalan is Ishar. Nalan mentions Ishar in Edgedancer. Looking at Adolin's conversation with Kadash, we see that during the Hierocracy, we see the church moving to seize control and restrict the flow of knowledge to regular people. With the theory tha the Heralds are all becoming corrupt versions of their ideals, it's a possibility that he was actually the driving force behind this change. This would definitely be a direct corruption of his ideals of Pious and Guiding. This led Nalan to realize about the corruption and develop the idea that they need to develop a code and follow it to prevent the new insanity.This is supported by that quote from Edgedancer. (The discussion board is gone so I assume spoiler tags are no longer needed.)

Quote

“Ishar has promised it, and he will not lie. We must do our duty. You are questioning, Szeth-son-Neturo. This is not good; this is weakness. To question is to accept a descent into inactivity. The only path to sanity and action is to choose a code and to follow it. This is why I came to you in the first place.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Arcanum Unbounded: The Cosmere Collection (pp. 596-597). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

2

So Ishar creates the Hierocracy, but then Nalan finds out about the corruption and together they figure out a way to fight the corruption by following a code and then they try to prevent future desolations which involves preventing the return of surgebinding. The first part of this would be to change history and opinion on the Knights Radiant to make it easier to hunt down surgebinders. If they are regarded as traitors and not heroes, then it is easier to get official permission to hunt them down, as is Nalan's normal modus operandi. This isn't as easy to do, because Vorin doctrine is founded on the basis of the authority of the Heralds who worked with the Knights, so there are conflicting tales and stories, such as with Teft. Part of the way to account for this was to forge documents and give the appearance that the Knights Radiant never had powers to begin with, but rather those were just fabrications of the church in order to control the population. This is reinforced as we see evidence of visions by truthwatchers, or by Shallan sketching Yalb and Shalash, so it might not have been just ardents pretending. Creating the illusion that it was an act serves the purpose of both demonizing the surgebinders as well as making it easier to justify the conflicting information from the rewritten documents. 

In Jasnah's book, she also mentions that the Vorin church controled most of eastern Roshar. Now, this is another portion that is selective interpretation, but Kharbranth does not seem to be as far under Vorin control in modern days as other cities, at least by the fact that they don't have a soulcaster, King T is able to get away with his shenanigans, and he was not afraid of alienating the church by entertaining Jasnah. It is technically in the Eastern hemisphere going by the map you linked me to on one of the other threads, but it is far more central than eastern. Nalan has proven to be active in all levels of government across all portions of Roshar and has been active for centuries. If this assumption holds true-that the Vorin church didn't have the reach to change records in the Palanaeum, it would make sense that Nalan would have the resources to make this happen here, and in other places such as the Grand Indicium. (Iirc, the ardents do seem to take care of the books, which could be evidence against this assumption, however, as property, this could also just be a task assigned to them.)

I think that about covers it. Like I said, this is far more flimsy than I would like. I definitely would preface this as a question had I been the one to make it a topic since I don't think there's enough evidence behind it to make a more assertive claim. What do you think?

Edited November 10, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[thejopen27 he/him]

On 9/26/2017 at 2:55 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

That would be interesting. Howerver, 3 points:

1. I would almost like it if the Hierocracy was just greedy men wanting power, as it would show corruption and selfishness will inflitrate everything after some time
2.  I'm pretty sure the Skybreakers acted on their own and didn't tell anyone that they were remaining behind. Maybe Nale was behind their choice, but if he was he told them to keep it quiet.
3.  I suspect there is still something else. We have yet to see the entire reasoning on why the recreance happened

I think it's completely the opposite. The Hierocracy was likely a theocratic government that evolved from the structures left over by the receding Radiants. I think it evolved naturally over the years from the stewards, servants, scholars, bureaucrats, and soldiers that must have helped the Radiants rule Roshar (and perhaps some former Radiants as well who tried to help keep order). I think they were probably no better or worse than another government, but the local land-owners and warlords (especially in the east) were tired of bowing to priest and one, the Sunmaker, decided to get some other nobles together and overthrow the priests and place themselves in control. The rest was a justification. 

It's possible that Azir's government resembles how the pre-Sunmaker Vorin church operated.

Edited November 11, 2017 by thejopen27

[thejopen27 he/him]

On 10/4/2017 at 4:41 AM, ScavellTane said:

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by thejopen27