[OB] Differences in Surges between Orders

[Asrael]

So heres my question: have we seen any evidence, or do we have any reason to believe that Surges might work slightly differently between Orders? Or do we attribute possible differences only to the different Resonances coming from combining Surges differently?

Let me cite an example: 
Shallan uses Lightweaving to create illusions externally: she makes something and everyone around her will see it. So is that all there is to Lightweaving as a surge? In one of our chapters this week, Renarin expends stormlight to heal Adolin, but Adolin also sees a vision of his better self. Is that Lightweaving? Do Truthwatchers Lightweave in a more internal, mental sort of way? (Or could Shallan do that too?) Did Renarin give Adolin an internal "illusion" of the way he sees him? Or is this a different power resulting from Truthwatcher Resonance akin to the (speculated) ability of Truthwatchers to have visions themselves? Did Renarin give Adolin the briefest moment of Truthwatching by seeing his "true" self?

Maybe this is a bit broad or unclear. Thoughts?

[Calderis]

Renarin used far more Stormlight in healing Adolin than necessary and he was momentarily connected more fully to his spiritual aspect. 

The Spiritual Realm is the realm of ideals. Of perfection. His view of himself in that moment reflects that Spiritual ideal of himself that is used to enact all healing. 

Lightweaving is the manipulation of waveforms. Light, sound... Possibly radiation, but who they'd probably need to discover that before being able to manipulate it Cognitively. 

Lightweaving should be a purely external surge. 

[Asrael]

So are there any examples of prior people being healed having similar experiences? Or is that just an anomaly arising from Adolin/Renarin's state of mind at the time?

[Yata]

I believe the Surges are basically the same across the Orders, the Little differences could come from the Resonance (if applicabile) or the RK's attitude.

I believe a specific order could use both of his Surges to synergize but there Will be two distinct Surges used for gaining an advantage for the second. By the way It's what I believed It happened with Renarin, he used both Illumination and Progression.

Stupid example:

A Windrunner could use the the Adesion's Surge to Stick something to the ground before using the gravitation's Reverse Lashing to make a mess of everything...except the stickied object.

Or the probably Dustbringer's conjoined use of Division and Friction to make explosion

Edited September 20, 2017 by Yata

[OrangeJedi]

I remember seeing something that said that, for the most part, the surges are the same between orders, with each order being able to do something "special" by combining the surges. I think that it is kind-of like in Mistborn (specifically era 2) where a twinborn has both powers and can use them fully, but they can also do a little something extra. Ex. Wax can increase his speed when flying through the air but changing his weight (if I remember right).

[Isaiah Zayth]

 

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Light, sound... Possibly radiation, but who they'd probably need to discover that before being able to manipulate it Cognitively.

Light IS radiation. Visible light is a portion of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum with wavelengths ranging from about 390nm (violet) to 700nm (red).

I'm not trying to be a stickler, I just thought is seemed important to point out Lightweavers actually are manipulating electromagnetic radiation without knowing such a thing exists. They simply know it as light. This seems to indicate your perception of the materials you are working with defines your capabilities, not an intimate knowledge of physics.

Another example of this would be the ability to use stormlight to heal a human body without knowledge of cells, atoms, or even basic anatomy. Of course, diagnosing disease or triaging wounded patients would take previous medical knowledge, but it seems since healing with stromlight pushes you towards your spiritual aspect, knowledge of what is happening in the body isn't necessary - it just happens automatically until all stormlight is used up.

[Calderis]

50 minutes ago, Isaiah Zayth said:

Light IS radiation. Visible light is a portion of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum with wavelengths ranging from about 390nm (violet) to 700nm (red).

I'm not trying to be a stickler, I just thought is seemed important to point out Lightweavers actually are manipulating electromagnetic radiation without knowing such a thing exists. They simply know it as light. This seems to indicate your perception of the materials you are working with defines your capabilities, not an intimate knowledge of physics.

I'm aware. I worded it they way I did, because for illumination, they have to be able to recognize its existence. Perception is massively important to the Cognitive Realm. Lightweaving doesn't have a built in template like Cognitive healing. It's all built off of the intent of the user. 

[shadowwisp]

1 hour ago, OrangeJedi said:

. Ex. Wax can increase his speed when flying through the air but changing his weight (if I remember right).

That actually is not Wax's "resonance" ability. That is just a function of the laws of physics. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Let's say that Wax pushed himself into the air with a Force of 1000 units. Let's say that his mass is 100kg, which would mean that he is accelerating at 10 meters per second squared.

If Wax only pushes once and stops, then the force of the total equation is 1000 units, that is constant. Then Wax starts storing "weight" into his metal mind reducing his mass to 10kg. Since the force is constant, the acceleration would have to change to compensate and maintain a force of 1000 units, thus increasing his speed to 100 meters per second squared. 

So why did Kriss ask this question? It is because Scadrials are still a bit ignorant. They think they are storing weight into the metalmind, when in reality they are storing mass. Remember that weight is based on gravity, so while your mass would remain the same on earth or mars, your weight would be different. So Kriss was trying to figure out if Wax was changing his mass or the influence of gravity on his body. Since he accelerates, the reader and Kriss now have confirmation that F-iron stores mass and not gravity.   

 

Sadly I don't think we know what Wax's special ability is yet.

Edited September 21, 2017 by shadowwisp

[Isaiah Zayth]

35 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I'm aware. I worded it they way I did, because for illumination, they have to be able to recognize its existence. Perception is massively important to the Cognitive Realm. Lightweaving doesn't have a built in template like Cognitive healing. It's all built off of the intent of the user. 

I figured you did, just wanted to get a few thoughts in. From what you're saying, seems like the answer to the OP is that mechanically, surges operate the same, but some require significantly more intent than others.

Sorry for the short, rough reply. Splitting my brain between 17thShard and Statistics HW right now. 

[OrangeJedi]

@shadowwisp Thanks for correcting me, I could not remember if it was "physics" or "magic". But thanks for bringing up the conversation with Kriss, that's what I was going for.

Also, it would be interesting to see a lightweaver manipulate radiation (other than light). Makes me wonder what other stuff lightweavers could manipulate?

[ZenBossanova]

On 9/19/2017 at 9:26 PM, Asrael said:

Shallan uses Lightweaving to create illusions externally: she makes something and everyone around her will see it. So is that all there is to Lightweaving as a surge? In one of our chapters this week, Renarin expends stormlight to heal Adolin, but Adolin also sees a vision of his better self. Is that Lightweaving? Do Truthwatchers Lightweave in a more internal, mental sort of way? (Or could Shallan do that too?) Did Renarin give Adolin an internal "illusion" of the way he sees him? Or is this a different power resulting from Truthwatcher Resonance akin to the (speculated) ability of Truthwatchers to have visions themselves? Did Renarin give Adolin the briefest moment of Truthwatching by seeing his "true" self?

If Adolin gained knowledge from the link he had with Renarin, then did Renarin gain knowledge about that wrist, and why it was injured? (ie. Sadeas)

[ParadoxicalZen]

I seem to recall an old WoB where Brandon talked of Gravitation with Skybreakers and Windrunners, in that it was mostly the same but ever so slightly different

[+Extesian]

5 minutes ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

I seem to recall an old WoB where Brandon talked of Gravitation with Skybreakers and Windrunners, in that it was mostly the same but ever so slightly different

This one

Quote

OUTIS

Is the crossover surge for each Knight the same?

BRANDON SANDERSON

To an extent, yes. Each of the combinations make a little bit of a tweak to how things act. But when you see the Skybreakers affecting gravity it will look much the same as what you saw on the Windrunners.

 

[ParadoxicalZen]

@Extesian is on it!

[+Extesian]

When i have the time i don't have time to browse the forums at the moment so ours only if i notice someone is looking for a WoB in the quick scroll i occasionally do of the news feed. I don't mind being tagged if people are looking for a specific WoB though, it usually only takes a minute or two

[Salkara]

13 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

If Adolin gained knowledge from the link he had with Renarin, then did Renarin gain knowledge about that wrist, and why it was injured? (ie. Sadeas)

Didn't Adolin injure his wrist fight Szeth?

[frozndevl]

2 hours ago, Salkara said:

Didn't Adolin injure his wrist fight Szeth?

He might be referring to the idea that fighting Sadeas contributed to his wrist still being in pain instead of healing in a more normal timeframe.

[Supreme King Z-arc]

We see this later in the book with the stormfather saying that tension will serve dalinar differently than it did the stonewards. And then again when dalinar uses the surge of adhesion in a spiritual way. 

Also I think this is why renarin can see the future. Because illuminating is also revealing something. So is he illuminated to the future?

[Yata]

11 minutes ago, Skip Hates Dragons said:

Also I think this is why renarin can see the future. Because illuminating is also revealing something. So is he illuminated to the future?

As Renarin is bonded with a Corrupted Radiant Spren is hard to define what is normal and what is dictated by the Odium's Corruption.

About Dalinar and his Spiritual Adhesion is the result of his Resonance affecting the Surge...no proof yet

[Fulminato]

i think is worth something mention of shallan illusion during the Thaylen City battle (and veil & Radiant after) had some 'substance'.she think had added some 'soulcasting' to make the effect.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Fulminato said:

i think is worth something mention of shallan illusion during the Thaylen City battle (and veil & Radiant after) had some 'substance'.she think had added some 'soulcasting' to make the effect.

Maybe. Jasnah's speculation that it was just large amounts of stormlight seems likely though, after she rejected the idea of soulcasting being involved. 

[NightFrost]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

As Renarin is bonded with a Corrupted Radiant Spren is hard to define what is normal and what is dictated by the Odium's Corruption.

About Dalinar and his Spiritual Adhesion is the result of his Resonance affecting the Surge...no proof yet

So somewhere there is a post on the fact that because Renarin is bonded with a corrupted radiant spren he is actually using Voidbinding to see the future and because of this he is seen by the voidbringers as an ally

"As he approached the ramp up to the Oathgate, the Fused descended. Four landed on the ramp before him, then gave him a gesture not unlike a salute," Oathbringer Chapter 120 Renarin POV

This essentially makes him  ,and i am going to coin this term, a Voidknight. Hopefully we will see what impact this has on the series in later books hopefully by infiltrating a Fused camp.