[OB] Mr T - what's he really doing?

[lastofus]

@Calderis I concede. I should've read your thread first and what you wrote about Szeth totally made sense. But I'll go back to my first point then, disagreeing about oaths isn't the same as removing them completely. He will remove the radiants if it's necessary, this alone is enough for me. 

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, lastofus said:

@Calderis I concede. I should've read your thread first and what you wrote about Szeth totally made sense. But I'll go back to my first point then, disagreeing about oaths isn't the same as removing them completely. He will remove the radiants if it's necessary, this alone is enough for me. 

And I've stated my arguments there already. 

I'll agree to disagree. 

[18th Shard]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@lastofus here is exactly why I disagree.

The every one of he oaths is open to interpretation. More about that in my thread here. (not a spoiler thread, so if you reply no OB stuff) 

If two Windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been broken, then yes, Taravangian will have broken that oath according to Dalinar, but in Taravangian's view everything he is doing is to unite the world under him. As he stated himself, you have to tear down a structure in order to build something stronger. Belief is what makes the Oaths hold. Taravangian believes what he is doing is the right course of action. 

And he doesn't want to work with surgebinders? Where does the code say that? It tells him to hold the secret in order to deal with the knew Knights yes. How is that prohibitive? He just needs it in order to break apart a group of surgebinders who could stand in his way. 

I'm certain that this new surgebinder who suddenly came forward "at the direction of their spren" was a Diagramist already. 

There is nothing anywhere in the books that shows that Radiants are good guys only. I think the Skybreakers are more than enough evidence to show that's not true. 

Did you read what @Calderis wrote? Oaths aren't based around a capital t Truth. They are based on perception based truth. If Kaladin finds out Elhokar was secretly controlled by Odium and killed thousands behind the scenes, then he probably won't protect Elhokar. If he never found  out, he would still protect Elhokar. Hence, the oaths are perception based. 

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, 18th Shard said:

Did you read what @Calderis wrote? Oaths aren't based around a capital t Truth. They are based on perception based truth. If Kaladin finds out Elhokar was secretly controlled by Odium and killed thousands behind the scenes, then he probably won't protect Elhokar. If he never found  out, he would still protect Elhokar. Hence, the oaths are perception based. 

I'm assuming you didn't mean to quote me here... 

[18th Shard]

Well, I did, in reply to iastofus because my phone didn't load the last half of the thread like it normally does. So...

look, a new radiant in the bushes 

*ducks into cover*

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

@Calderis, considering how many new people are on the 17th Shard and how many times you are presenting this argument, just copy paste the relevant points into a doc in your pc to pop out each time you have to repeat it . Its not their fault they are new and its a valid point that this "oath ambiguity" is not simple to grasp with what we have read. For the record I don't entirely agree with you, but its true the Oaths and Orders are not as black and white as its assumed. 

[dionysus]

I am in the camp of unintentional bad guy. I have espoused the theory several times that his boon was both great intelligence and great empathy and his bane was that they do not occur at the same time. My main evidence of this is that we know that intelligent Mr. T would have ordered that all stupid people not breed, and he was stopped because his people would have revolted. So intelligence must be tempered with other attributes like empathy to be truly successful. (On a side note, selective breeding is exactly what we have done in the real world to create different dog breeds and cow breeds, superior strains of crops, etc. It is a big part of cultivation...)

Vague Mistborn original trilogy ending spoiler follows.

Spoiler

If the final solution in the original Mistborn trilogy is a template, our heroes will need to use the intents and powers of all 3 shards on Roshar to save the world. Mr. T right now seems to be too much of Cultivation's instrument.

.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

@Calderis, considering how many new people are on the 17th Shard and how many times you are presenting this argument, just copy paste the relevant points into a doc in your pc to pop out each time you have to repeat it . Its not their fault they are new and its a valid point that this "oath ambiguity" is not simple to grasp with what we have read. For the record I don't entirely agree with you, but its true the Oaths and Orders are not as black and white as its assumed. 

I should really do that...

And I don't expect agreement on Taravangian. Or on some of the smaller points on why the Oaths are as flexible as they are (mainly the Spren thing). 

The only concrete thing we have is that Teft's interpretation of the First Oath is not the only one, and that it doesn't bar a Machiavellian.

Disagree with me all you want, and I will enjoy the argument. It's only once you start disagreeing with Brandon that I'll be like "sorry but no" 

[Toaster Retribution]

Furthermore, we have a plot reason to accept Calderis take on the Oaths. If the Secret Societies like Ghostbloods and the Diagramists are to present threats to Team Kholin, they need Radiants. Otherwise they would get steamrolled very quickly. And since the Societies are morally anbigious, we need morally ambigious Radiants. Hence oaths open for interpretation. 

[frozndevl]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Diagram is perfectly aligned with Cultivation's intent. Strengthening the body through aggressive pruning. 

I repeatedly read this as "strengthening the body through aggressive punching" emphasis mine

[rjl]

I've just had an interesting thought - Shallan is shaping up to be quite the spy - perhaps she will investigate Mr T whilst everyone things he's an ally she won't trust him for some reason (may have a slow start on that as she had a positive impression of him back in tWoK) but could she somehow spy out his nefarious doings and bring them Dalinar?

[hypatia]

Isn't Moash with Graves on his way to the Diagram?

[rjl]

26 minutes ago, hypatia said:

Isn't Moash with Graves on his way to the Diagram?

Well on his way somewhere with a "Diagramist" I don't think we know where they're actually going.

[yulerule]

Read just a couple of comments. I'm with the worst interpretation of Option 2. Or combination of 2+3. Why? Because he's using Death Rattles to refine the diagram, get more info. And those come from Unmade. So I don't trust the Death Rattles. They may look like they're pointing at one thing when actually they mean something utterly different. Also, he's building a picture out of lots of little cryptic pieces of information. So I have a feeling that the info isn't evenly distributed, so to say, but missing stuff. It might all be true, but the Death Rattles might ignore/not mention something crucial that would totally change the overall interpretation. 

So that's why there's a bit of option 3. The Death Rattles add onto the diagram, but they're of Odium, so they're skewing it. 

 

In any case, I don't trust the Diagram, because some of the stuff there, I don't care how genius you are, you need a priori knowledge to get to some of those places, which I'm pretty sure Mr. T didn't have. So something, I think, was feeding him info when he had no compassion whatsoever.

Edited September 20, 2017 by yulerule

[Stormrunner1730]

I'm in the unintentional villain camp.  He might end up being a Bondsmith eventually (with Cultivation's super-spren), but I don't think he currently has any intention of allying with the Dalinar's Radiants.  I think he'll end up being a third party (If you think of the "main parties" as 1. Dalinar/proto-Radiants and 2. Odium and his various forces).  Mr. T as an antagonist to Dalinar and the proto-Radiants creates a lot of good tension for the story and I think it would be a waste if he/the Diagram were to just become Dalinar's ally.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

I'm in the unintentional villain camp.  He might end up being a Bondsmith eventually (with Cultivation's super-spren), but I don't think he currently has any intention of allying with the Dalinar's Radiants.  I think he'll end up being a third party (If you think of the "main parties" as 1. Dalinar/proto-Radiants and 2. Odium and his various forces).  Mr. T as an antagonist to Dalinar and the proto-Radiants creates a lot of good tension for the story and I think it would be a waste if he/the Diagram were to just become Dalinar's ally.

I think that he'll become a Bondsmith and still be a rival/villain. He'll have his own group of Radiants following the Diagram. 

Obviously not all orders will be able to have their oaths twisted around like this, but enough. 

[Ryder]

@CalderisOne reason I think Mr. T might have  room to become a Bondsmith and to remain a villain-ish character is because each Bondsmith bonds a unique spren.  

I can't remember where exactly, but I'm pretty sure Syl mentions that all spren of the same type are essentially the same person.  While we know there can be different oaths for different people in the same order, presumably all Windrunner oaths will be very similar and deal with protection and leadership - their divine attributes.  That will give a lot of cohesion between members of the same order, and I think it can also be assumed that each individual spren of a given type will have similar or nearly identical interpretations of a given action.  For example I assume all honorspren would disagree with Kaladin's choice to participate in the assassination of Elhokar for the greater good of Alethkar.  

By contrast, we know each Bondsmith bonds a unique, individual spren.  That opens up much more room for interpretation on what sort of oaths conform to the Bondsmith divine attributes of pious and guiding.  The Nightwatcher might have a very different idea of what it means to be pious and guiding than the Stormfather, and they might both disagree with whatever the third Bondsmith spren thinks agrees with those ideals.

Finally, we have only to look at the behavior of the patron of the Bondsmiths, Ishar.  We have this quote from WoR about the founding of the KR: 

Quote

"But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws."

I read this is saying that Ishar would destroy any surgebinder who refused to be bound by oaths.  I don't know if that means killing them or something else, but that seems at least a little villainous to me.  I can't see Dalinar threatening to destroy/kill any of the highprinces when they wouldn't behave like he wanted them to in tWoK, but I could see Mr. T doing that on the sly to preserve his reputation.  And yet, Ishar is supposed to be a representation of the same ideals any Bondsmith would follow.  Anyway, this post is long enough but I'd be curious to know what you think.

[Salkara]

That "whodunnit" thread's off the front page, but does anyone else believe a sleeper Diagrimist could be behind the copycat murder? Maybe Diagram foresaw Adolin killing Sadeas in Urithiru. Could possibly work well into the plan to take down Dalinar.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Salkara

[Calderis]

29 minutes ago, Ryder said:

@CalderisOne reason I think Mr. T might have  room to become a Bondsmith and to remain a villain-ish character is because each Bondsmith bonds a unique spren.

I hadn't considered that actually, because I was two busy being bothered by the fact that three different spren give the same abilities, but I like it. 

30 minutes ago, Ryder said:

I can't remember where exactly, but I'm pretty sure Syl mentions that all spren of the same type are essentially the same person.  While we know there can be different oaths for different people in the same order, presumably all Windrunner oaths will be very similar and deal with protection and leadership - their divine attributes.  That will give a lot of cohesion between members of the same order, and I think it can also be assumed that each individual spren of a given type will have similar or nearly identical interpretations of a given action.  For example I assume all honorspren would disagree with Kaladin's choice to participate in the assassination of Elhokar for the greater good of Alethkar.  

I don't agree on this. More on that here. 

On Ishar... I never really know what to think about the Heralds. The Orders are supposedly modeled after the associated Heralds in both powers and temperament, but the Heralds also are no bound by the same oaths and spren. What they can and can't do in comparison to their respective order something I've been unable to fully wrap my brain around. 

[Patrick Star]

On 9/19/2017 at 3:25 PM, rjl said:

What if the Sphere contained the Odium equivalent of the Storm Father?

 

(Wild slightly off the wall theory)

I've been pushing unmade-in-a-box basically since WoR came out

[vikorr]

Has anyone considered that the easiest way for Mt T to become 'King of Everything' is to Ally with Dalinar, unite the world, then Knife Dalinar in the Back (so to speak)?

Even though he tried to do so through assassination, the point of that (in Jah Kaved) was to create a situation so that other people would do his work for him...and he'd then come in and take over...

Edited September 23, 2017 by vikorr

[Raykoda]

Mr. T being a Radiant of any kind is ridiculous. His methods flagrantly violate the Immortal Words. "Journey befire destinstion" remember? He is all about getting to the destination of humanity surviving, the journey be damned. And no, this isn't a matter of interpretation, it's pretty clear that he is *techincally* Bringing Men Together, but in a way that's totally opposite or the Radiant M.O.

 

[Calderis]

3 hours ago, raykoda said:

Mr. T being a Radiant of any kind is ridiculous. His methods flagrantly violate the Immortal Words. "Journey befire destinstion" remember? He is all about getting to the destination of humanity surviving, the journey be damned. And no, this isn't a matter of interpretation, it's pretty clear that he is *techincally* Bringing Men Together, but in a way that's totally opposite or the Radiant M.O.

Let's repeat what's already been covered in this thread. 

Quote

ANDREWHB

Is Niccolo Machiavelli's political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants' First Oath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli's theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.

QUESTION

As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

The first Oath does not mean what you think it does. 

[Blacksmithki]

3 hours ago, raykoda said:

Mr. T being a Radiant of any kind is ridiculous. His methods flagrantly violate the Immortal Words. "Journey befire destinstion" remember? He is all about getting to the destination of humanity surviving, the journey be damned. And no, this isn't a matter of interpretation, it's pretty clear that he is *techincally* Bringing Men Together, but in a way that's totally opposite or the Radiant M.O.

 

Actually, it's been discussed recently in another thread (I think it was the main one) that at least two orders would accept a "ends justify the means" person such as Mr T. There was a WoB on it, I think it was the skybreakers and the elsecallers.

This post got ninja'd

Edited September 28, 2017 by Blacksmithki

[+Wax]

Mr. T 's target according to the diagram is "You must become king - of everything".

 

I think becoming Radiant sort of takes away that option.  Elhokar can become a Radiant and join an order, but his Radiant duties will then conflict with his kingly duties and so forth.  Even Dalinar is going to end up in a UN kind of a role where he has to give up a kingdom to rule Urithiru and be the bondsmith.  So, kind of a political maneuvre thing is how I see it as coming.  Taravangian says "I'll be the world king supporting you Dalinar if you help me become that".  So, Dalinar lets Taravangian be that so that his way of running the Radiants is cleared.