[OB] The book Oathbringer on Roshar theories.

[+eveorjoy]

For starters,  I would like to say, I like everyone’s points, even those I disagree with. I won’t comment on everyone’s post, just a few key ones here and there. But I have enjoyed the discussion. I kept out of it until now because I wanted to see what people thought.

Let's start with this quote. 

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I know that many women who read this will see it only as further proof that I am the godless heretic everyone claims.

—From Oathbringer, preface

 

First I will focus on the second half of the quote.

All right @Ansalem , even though Jasnah is proud of her heretic state, she is not going to ignore this fact and will acknowledge it to a Vorin audience. She knows that many of the female Vorin audience will to want to dismiss her opinion on the subject matter because she is a heretic and they will assume her positive bias toward the topic. So Jasnah states this, in the beginning, to get this out of the way. If she were talking about another subject, such as the history of her father, I don’t think she would bring up her status as a heretic at all.

Still, @Ansalem and @Calderis, nothing in this statement says to me whether or not she believes she is a heretic. However, this I believe is left to our interpretation. I can see why you would see it that way, but I do not. We simply do not know enough of the context of this preface to make that determination. In my mind, the statement is only about others seeing the author as a heretic and the author acknowledging this fact

On 9/5/2017 at 9:38 PM, Ansalem said:

 Gavilar basically wrote his accounts of meeting the Parshendi. They simply do it by dictating to a scribe instead of writing it by their own hand. We can't rule out male authors.

 

Galivar did dictate his experience to Jasnah, but she admitted she embellished his words in the undertext.

TWoKs Chapter 36 “The Lesson” page 578.

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I should be noted, Jasnah had written in the undertext to this passage, that I have adapted my father’s words—by his own instruction—to make them more appropriate for recording.

Therefore, even though Galivar gave his account of his meetings with Parshendi, Jasnah wrote that book. It is closer to a biography than a true autobiography. Yes, It is true Jasnah, or another Vorin woman, could be writing the dictations of Dalinar or some other male. However, the fact she is speaking to Vorin women expecting only Vorin women to be forming opinions of the writer, suggests to me that the preface is no mere transcription of dictation.

On 9/5/2017 at 9:50 PM, Calderis said:

Why would anyone feel threatened by the books mere existence? I can only think of two options. 

First, the subject matter, which as we are still at the preface has not been addressed. I agree it's most likely about Dalinar and the visions, which the Ardentia would see as a threat due to the implications towards the Almighty. 

If that is the extent of it, why would anyone beyond Dalinar have a need to feel Vindicated? This is why I think a man is writing the book. Women and traditionalists would feel threatened by their professions being opened to the other gender, and by the breaking of Vorin gender roles respectively. This would further incense the Ardentia beyond just the subject matter.

 

Hmmm... I disagree.

Because we do not know the context of the book there could be more than two reasons for people to feel threatened or vindicated by this book. I don’t think the subject matter is only Dalinar and his visions, but also the first few months or even the first year at Urithru. If this is the case then many would be vindicated: the other highprinces, Elhokar, any of the new Knight Radiant including Squires, various leaders around the world for various reasons, etc.  Of course, because we have not read either Oathbringer yet, we have no way of knowing who would be ashamed or vindicated by the in-world book.

More quotes by Calderis

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The line drawing attention to women as readers is also unnecessary unless the author is not in fact female. Otherwise, why would anyone assume the reader is anything other than female, or an ardent, who are considered genderless. 

Why even bring up gender when only women will read it? 

 In a society in which only women are allowed to read, the assumption would be that only women are reading the book, and make a blatant comment like this completely unnecessary. 

It would be like me saying "I know that many Humans who read my posts may be annoyed at my tone." 

What's the point of including it in the first place? 

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Stating that only women will read this makes me think the author is a woman speaking to women. Stating your audience as the same gender as yourself is very common in the history of writing.

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We men are wretched things—Homer  (Male)

We are the hollow men, we are the stuffed men, leaning together, headpiece filled with straw.

—T.S. Eliot (Male)

The man who does not read has not advantage over the man who cannot read—Mark Twain (Male)

“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies, said Jojen. The man who never reads lives only one.” 
― George R.R. Martin, A Dance with Dragons (Male character)

 

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The last quote is particularly interesting.  It from the Song of Ice and Fire world, where men are the primary writers and readers. In Vorin Roshar women are the primary writers and readers. Therefore it is not odd that the writer would refer to the gender of the readers as women. It is the assumed normal, but in the quotes above the assumed normal audience is male. Even though T.S. Eliot and Mark Twain wrote in times where women could be educated it was not the typical. So the term “men” is used to refer to the audience in general. When the author of Roshar's Oathbringer refers to the readers as women she is referring to the average reader in Vorin culture, women. 

Why mention it? Why does Jojen mention only a "man" who never reads? Why does Homer state "men" are wretched things? They are using the pronoun of the normal audience. Why state the gender?  In Vorin Roshar would the statement make sense written some other way?

I know that many men who read this... 

No, because it is an obscene thing for men to read in Vorin culture. This statement would have made sense in pre- twenty-century Earth because men were considered the norm, but not in Vorin Roshar.

I know that many persons who read this... 

No, this reads very stilted and makes no sense in Vorin culture. It might make sense in our highly gender focused modern society in Western Culture on Earth, but even then the statement seems awkward.

I know anyone who reads this...

This is the only way you could start the sentence without mentioning gender. However, I believe Brandon wrote this statement to let us know what culture this is being written to. Further, the above statement is less formal than rest of the preface's prose.

So the statement as written in the preface seems the most natural in Vorin culture. 

Yet another quote by Calderis

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I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond.

 

 

This was the moment I decided it was Renarin. We don't know the extent of Truthwatcher abilities yet, but when have Jasnah or Shallan seen "Beyond" Shadesmar? 

Truthwatchers see. 

 

Yes, but Truthwatchers cannot travel between realms. Further are we sure Truthwatchers can see. Only Renarin has said this, and he could be wrong. I will come back to this.

Shademar can lead to beyond the world of spren, which is the Rosharan cognitive realm. So as an Elsecaller, Jasnah, can still fit the statement. But let’s look at the statement again.

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I can point to the moment when I decided for certain this record had to be written. I hung between realms, seeing into Shadesmar—the realm of the spren—and beyond.

Only three orders, I think, have the closest binds to Shadesmar. Elsecallers with the surges of transformation and transportation. Lightweavers with the surge of transformation. Finally, Willshapers with the surge of transportation. I admit the last order is a guess, but it is a likely one. Both our Elsecaller and our Lightweaver have visited Shadesmar using the surge of transformation. However, only the Elsecaller could stay while the Lightweaver was kicked out as soon as her stormlight ran out. So I think Jasnah was able to stay because of her transportation surge. We know from other Cosmere works that Shadesmar or the cognitive realm is the means people use to hop worlds,  such as Hoid and others. Elsecallers, and most likely Willshapers, are the ones who can easily hang between realms.

Now Renarin is not a member of any of these orders. His surges are supposed to be Lightweaving and Progressing (healing). Neither of these would suggest seeing the future, which has me worried about Renarin. We simply don't know what is going on with him. Still, the quote from preface above does not fit Renarin's claimed order. It might fit his statement, but even then seeing the future is not seeing Shademar and it is only an assumption seeing the future refers to the beyond.

It does fit Jasnah’s order. In fact, it fits hers the best IMHO.

Quote by Stark.

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Amaram, Restares, or another member of the Sons of Honour - the founder perhaps.  We have already seen that the Sons have their own written language using the phonetics of the glyphs.  They are trying to bring back the Radiants and the Voidbringers, which could be considered quite heretical.  But they feel the need to do it anyway.

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Yes, the Stormwardens are making a script of glyphs, but this script would not fit the grammar or syntax of the quotes. The stormwarden script is too straightforward and simple. The writer is clearly an experienced author by her writing style. Now it is possible that a male member of the Sons of Honor is dictating to a female scribe or a female member of the Sons (which makes no sense considering the name) is writing it. But several of the quotes point to a Knight Radiant likely being the author, especially from one of the orders of Elsecallers, Lightweavers, or Willshapers.  Maybe one of the Sons of Honor is a Knight Radiant but I doubt it.

As for your suggestion of Szeth, @Stark, he is more likely than some suggestions. He probably can write, but why would he write to a Vorin audience? Also, he is going down the path of a Skybreaker, who as far as we know don't hang between realms. It could be he is remembering when he died, but he doesn't seem to remember the afterlife in WoR and I don't think he is planning on writing a book at that time.

Quote by @Nathrangking

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I have yet to make a fantastically crazy theory so here is goes: Taravangian is the author. He will have a day which eclipses that of his day of genius to such a degree he will be able to glimpse between the realms and see into shadesmar. He will then begin to write based on what he sees in secret. His minders will discover what he did and decide that he is too much of a liability. They will try to kill him and he will be abandoned on the brink of death, but barely survive and escape.

We have seen the example of Taravangian's writing of truly genius days. It's not as legible as the prose of the in-world Oathbringer and even he and his scholars are still trying to translate it. 

On 9/6/2017 at 5:03 PM, 18th Shard said:

I vote it is the record of the Sunmaker - a modern book written after oathbringer just feels wrong to me.

Maybe. But how long has Vorin culture been the norm in Western Roshar. The fact the audience of the book is all female suggests this is written in Vorin Culture. It is possible the Sunmaker dictated this in his time, but we don't have enough information yet to be sure.

Only two more days until we get more preface and our debate can continue. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by eveorjoy
Typo

[Stark]

6 hours ago, eveorjoy said:

Yes, the Stormwardens are making a script of glyphs, but this script would not fit the grammar or syntax of the quotes.

Very good point to counter my thoughts.  Hopefully tomorrow, when our number of available examples increases by 50% we will be able to further narrow down the list of suspects.

 

I am still heavily wary of looking in the expected directions, but a lot of people are bringing up really good points.  I can't wait to see how it all shakes loose!