[OB] The Death Rattles maybe from Odium.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

We learned from Dalinar's vision that the unmade are of Odium and WOB is that Odium influences humans through the unmade. Nergaoul causes the thrill in men and I am pretty sure he/she/ze is an unmade. 

Well, we know of an unmade who causes the death rattles, Moeloch. That doesn't mean these visions are lies per say. In fact, we have seen some of them come true in both TWoK and WoR. However, that does not mean knowing these future events is something that will save mankind on Roshar. Seeing the future has already been stated to be from Odium and the Voidbringers as well. Also, there are many stories where hearing the future leads to it, from the Greek tragedy Oedipus Rex to The Kingkiller Chronicles. 

So maybe Taravangian is not saving the world by killing these poor people in his hospital. Maybe he is learning a possible future that will end Roshar. 

Thoughts?

[Calderis he/him]

My opinion of the Death Rattles is that they are a side effect. 

I believe that Moelach intercepts some souls in the Cognitive Realm and us able to take knowledge from them. 

In doing so, in the moments if transition between the realms, his victims gain a glimpse of the spiritual realm, and some limited foresight. 

In killing these people, and feeding Moelach, Taravangian is unknowingly handing over more knowledge than the cryptic Death Rattles are giving in return. 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

47 minutes ago, Calderis said:

My opinion of the Death Rattles is that they are a side effect. 

I believe that Moelach intercepts some souls in the Cognitive Realm and us able to take knowledge from them. 

In doing so, in the moments if transition between the realms, his victims gain a glimpse of the spiritual realm, and some limited foresight. 

In killing these people, and feeding Moelach, Taravangian is unknowingly handing over more knowledge than the cryptic Death Rattles are giving in return. 

What knowledge would Moelach gain that is of any value? I think it would be far more useful to give humans enough rope to hang themselves with incomplete visions of the future. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by eveorjoy

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

What knowledge would Moelach gain that is of any value? I think it would be far more useful to give humans enough rope to hang themselves with incomplete visions of the future. 

The same kinds of information that any spy wants? 

Locations, important people secrets. The majority of deaths in a desolation happen in opposition to the desolation itself. In The vision of Nohadon its said that one of the Unmade specifically targeted men of learning. They got this information somehow, and and I doubt it was all via Parshendi forms. 

I feel that the Death Rattles are far too cryptic, and speak of small enough events for the most part that they are much to vague for a deliberate effort to mislead. 

If it weren't for the Diagram, would anyone be paying attention to them at all? Would anyone be making an effort to interpret them? 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The same kinds of information that any spy wants? 

Locations, important people secrets. The majority of deaths in a desolation happen in opposition to the desolation itself. In The vision of Nohadon its said that one of the Unmade specifically targeted men of learning. They got this information somehow, and and I doubt it was all via Parshendi forms. 

I feel that the Death Rattles are far too cryptic, and speak of small enough events for the most part that they are much to vague for a deliberate effort to mislead. 

If it weren't for the Diagram, would anyone be paying attention to them at all? Would anyone be making an effort to interpret them? 

But Moeloch is connecting with everyone not just people with useful information. Also, they are beings that can go anywhere and see everything. They don't need information from street jugglers and five-year-old kids. Where as a cryptic message could lead people to make bad choices.

And I actually wonder if Taravangian's diagram will lead to an outcome where humanity survives. The Nightwatcher gives you want she wants to give you. Windle has said she has given up on humanity. Maybe she didn't give Taravangian the gift he thought she gave him. But this is a tangent.

I doubt Taravangian's people are the only ones who notice the death rattles. In fact, I know they aren't because Navani also mentioned them. The death rattles maybe a subtle trap that Taravangian and others have fallen into.

[kimni]

I've just thought of this, but maybe somebody else has already pointed it out...

The death rattles could be connected to the idea in Warbreaker that the dead can see the future (but on Nalthis, they actually have to be dead before they see it, and forget it when they Return). Maybe all Moelach does is tweak that so people can see a glimpse of the future before they are actually completely dead?

Though that does leave the question why, and if all death rattles are actually the future, since some seem to reference the past. Perhaps Moelach is just gathering as much information as possible because he (she? it?) can't target anything specifically? In the hopes that if there are enough death rattles, eventually there will be something important (king of quantity over quality)?

I think the ability to see the future after death is something the Unmade can't do, so they tap random dying humans for information?

[ChazBolt]

Well, my theory is that the Death Rattles are words of people who are currently in Damnation, slipping through the mouth of people headed that way.

Quote

“The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.”

This Death Rattle MUST be coming from Talenel when he is Damnation still. 

Whether or not this crack between realms is due to an Unmade, im not sure.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

1 hour ago, ChazBolt said:

Well, my theory is that the Death Rattles are words of people who are currently in Damnation, slipping through the mouth of people headed that way.

This Death Rattle MUST be coming from Talenel when he is Damnation still. 

Whether or not this crack between realms is due to an Unmade, im not sure.

Taravangian says the death rattles are the effect left on a soul after the unmade, Moelach, touches them as they pass on. 

[frozndevl]

Maybe the end of the heralds time in purgatory is marked by their "death", which would allow a death rattle to come from them specifically.

[ChazBolt]

24 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Taravangian says the death rattles are the effect left on a soul after the unmade, Moelach, touches them as they pass on. 

Ooooo. I dont remember that. Im starting my reread of WoR now. 

[+eveorjoy she/her]

24 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

Ooooo. I dont remember that. Im starting my reread of WoR now. 

Moeloch is mentioned in Taravangain's interlude as is Nergaoul

[Andy92]

16 hours ago, Calderis said:

I feel that the Death Rattles are far too cryptic, and speak of small enough events for the most part that they are much to vague for a deliberate effort to mislead. 

If it weren't for the Diagram, would anyone be paying attention to them at all? Would anyone be making an effort to interpret them? 

Well, we would because they're written in italics. 

[Calderis he/him]

18 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

Well, we would because they're written in italics. 

Ah, but our italicized writings... 

Are from Taravangian's silent gatherers. 

Thanks for the records Mr. T! 

[Zalocx he/him]

There is something super weird going on with death on Roshar, that's for sure.

Spoiler

We have seen in other books that Cognative Shadows form when the physical body dies and persist for a while in the cognative realm before being drawn "beyond" and that beings currently in the cognative realm can interact with these shadows.

Yet Roshar has sections of its major magic systems that give unprecedented access to Shadesmar and yet we never see the dead transition. Shallan was looking into the cognative when the boarders started executing the crew of her ship. She saw their "lights" blink out but no shadow popped up in Shadesmar before stretching away beyond. This makes me think that Odium or his servants are somehow "snatching up" people when they die instead of letting them naturally pass Beyond. The death rattles might be a side effect of this. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 8/30/2017 at 11:13 PM, eveorjoy said:

Seeing the future has already been stated to be from Odium and the Voidbringers as well.

Again, bear in mind that, unless I am remembering incorrectly, this connection stems from the Sunmaker and the Hierocracy. Meaning that this "Future Sight == Voidbringers" idea is only about 700 years old. The Last Desolation was 4,500 years ago. That's a lot of time where people could have thought differently.

This also opens the door to Odium/Cultivation's influence in why the Sunmaker said that. On the other hand, if say.. Truthwatchers had future-sight, the Odium could have influenced a deep seated public opinion against Radiantkind to become even worse. If future-sight like the death rattles is giving Odium hints about the future too, then Cultivation stepping in to put a stop to it is justified(and could be why Truthwatchers never spoke of what they saw). Both of these conclusions seem valid enough to me, so.. opinions?

[+eveorjoy she/her]

19 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Again, bear in mind that, unless I am remembering incorrectly, this connection stems from the Sunmaker and the Hierocracy. Meaning that this "Future Sight == Voidbringers" idea is only about 700 years old. The Last Desolation was 4,500 years ago. That's a lot of time where people could have thought differently.

This also opens the door to Odium/Cultivation's influence in why the Sunmaker said that. On the other hand, if say.. Truthwatchers had future-sight, the Odium could have influenced a deep seated public opinion against Radiantkind to become even worse. If future-sight like the death rattles is giving Odium hints about the future too, then Cultivation stepping in to put a stop to it is justified(and could be why Truthwatchers never spoke of what they saw). Both of these conclusions seem valid enough to me, so.. opinions?

Actually, it is Navani's journal entry and Syl's statement of this fact that led me to believe seeing the future is of Odium. 

[Calderis he/him]

42 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Actually, it is Navani's journal entry and Syl's statement of this fact that led me to believe seeing the future is of Odium. 

But spren are subject to human perception, and Navani is a religious woman who is a product of her time. 

Neither of these things refute The One Who Connects' point 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

30 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Actually, it is Navani's journal entry and Syl's statement of this fact that led me to believe seeing the future is of Odium. 

Oh.. I guess you glossed over a couple statements directly saying that the Vorin believe that "predicting the future = evil" during .. one of Szeth's interludes (WoK I-6?) and one of Shallan's Kharbranth chapters I think. Well, congrats for coming up with the idea on your own.

Navani's journal entry is most likely a product of her Vorin beliefs, so it falls to the Sunmaker argument. As an Honorspren, Syl's words would theoretically carry more weight, but.. they don't. IIRC, she says that future-sight is "not of Honor," which doesn't necessarily imply evil. Cultivation is quite good at it, Preservation was also adept at it, Odium is believed to be good at it too. Honor and Ruin weren't. Even if you consider some Shards to be evil(I don't), the split is mixed among good/bad.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

But spren are subject to human perception, and Navani is a religious woman who is a product of her time. 

Neither of these things refute The One Who Connects' point 

 

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh.. I guess you glossed over a couple statements directly saying that the Vorin believe that "predicting the future = evil" during .. one of Szeth's interludes (WoK I-6?) and one of Shallan's Kharbranth chapters I think. Well, congrats for coming up with the idea on your own.

Navani's journal entry is most likely a product of her Vorin beliefs, so it falls to the Sunmaker argument. As an Honorspren, Syl's words would theoretically carry more weight, but.. they don't. IIRC, she says that future-sight is "not of Honor," which doesn't necessarily imply evil. Cultivation is quite good at it, Preservation was also adept at it, Odium is believed to be good at it too. Honor and Ruin weren't. Even if you consider some Shards to be evil(I don't), the split is mixed among good/bad.

I wasn't saying the One Who Connects is wrong. I was just explaining how I came to that conclusion. 

I didn't gloss over those statements, I just didn't consider them viable enough. Navani's journal I assumed came after she learned Renarin was the source of the glyphs on the wall. 

And I trust Syl's opinion because she has good instincts. 

Of course I am just speculating and could be completely wrong. I guess we shall see. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

24 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I just didn't consider them viable enough.

I figured referencing the current religious belief was a viable source in the sense of that belief had to come from somewhere.

"Myths often have a grain of truth in them if you know where to look."  -Third Doctor

24 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Navani's journal I assumed came after she learned Renarin was the source of the glyphs on the wall.

You would probably be right. We learned Renarin was writing them when he was carving the zeroes during the Battle of Narak(Ishishach 1173). Navani's journal entry is dated Jeseses 1174.     10-10-3  to  1-1-1  is only 3 days later. I'm not sure that would have been mentioned within that timeframe, especially given all the other revelations to be explained, but it's possible.

Edited September 5, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Got the second date wrong, it's one day earlier. Fixed now though

[Hafrigado]

Maybe Moelach just brings them back to life for a bit. So they die and "see" stuff (like everyone supposedly does) and then Moelach (for some reason) brings them back to life for a few seconds. Maybe this is why Jasnah saw the people on the ship disappear immediately: they came back briefly. Maybe it's been happening to everyone but only some people actually "see" words. They can't say a picture.

[Guest Edonidd]

On 8/31/2017 at 0:45 AM, Calderis said:

My opinion of the Death Rattles is that they are a side effect. 

I believe that Moelach intercepts some souls in the Cognitive Realm and us able to take knowledge from them. 

In doing so, in the moments if transition between the realms, his victims gain a glimpse of the spiritual realm, and some limited foresight. 

In killing these people, and feeding Moelach, Taravangian is unknowingly handing over more knowledge than the cryptic Death Rattles are giving in return. 

I don't really want to discuss spoilers from previously released chapters before they were final and official like these Tor releases.  But I'm really hoping that a certain interlude is released soon, because i believe it gave us some amazing information.  Including something touching directly on this subject.

[+eveorjoy she/her]

32 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

I don't really want to discuss spoilers from previously released chapters before they were final and official like these Tor releases.  But I'm really hoping that a certain interlude is released soon, because i believe it gave us some amazing information.  Including something touching directly on this subject.

This is the Oathbringer spoiler board. Everything Brandon has released on Oathbringer except "The Trill" chapters in Unfettered 2 is on this board. Spoil away, but if you are worried about it you can hide your comments with a spoiler window. It's the eye tool in the submission box tool bar. 

[Guest Edonidd]

5 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

This is the Oathbringer spoiler board. Everything Brandon has released on Oathbringer except "The Trill" chapters in Unfettered 2 is on this board. Spoil away, but if you are worried about it you can hide your comments with a spoiler window. It's the eye tool in the submission box tool bar. 

I know it's legal, but i just feel like sihnificantly less people have read a transcription of a chapter that was great aloud and is buried on different places vs. Finished chapters that are being officially released bybthe publisher on their website.

 

I guess with that said I won't talk about bigger implications and my own personal theories that arose from that chapter and just point out; 

Spoiler

"There are those that can pull secrets from your soul."  

Which is why she refused to answer the question of a woman who was already dying.  Since we already know Moeloch is giving people (confirmed true) visions/words at the moment of their death, it only makes sense that he would be doing this only if he got something in return.  I would almost say its confirmed tgat Moeloch is able to steal the knowledge/secrets of people as they die.  And that you're right the words being collected by The Diagram are just a side effect.