Three Gods, Heb.

[Crucible of Shards]

I was rereading WoK and I got to the first Dalinar vision, chapter 19. The woman who is his vision-wife (that sounds awkward) uses the phrase, "Three Gods, Heb" as an expression of awe at Dalinar's defense in the house. Now, that seems strange to me, since I didn't think that a random village would have knowledge of the shards on the world. Most shardworlds seem to have a very imperfect knowledge of their resident shards.. Is she referring to Honor, Cultivation, and Odium? It makes me think of the epigraph for WoK chapter 11, which states, “Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.” I have an idea (not even an theory, and I don't really even believe it myself) that there was possibly a third shard on Roshar before Odium came. Almost definitely not, but these two things have me thinking, because it seems highly probable that they're connected. It's probably just referring to the three shards we know. anyway, I just thought I 'd throw this connection out there and see what people thought of it.

[Pagerunner]

The idea of a fourth Rosharan Shard had quite a bit of traction back in the day. (My very first post was in favor of the subject!) It has since been debunked, with Brandon confirming that Odium is that third Shard.

Compare with the Purelake religion; they believe in two gods, but one of them is bad. It's probably the same with the three gods, where people knew of all three, even though one of the gods was their enemy.

[Crucible of Shards]

Thanks! That clears up one issue. Now I'm just curious how much a rural village knows about shards...

[cloudjumper]

1 hour ago, Crucible of Shards said:

Thanks! That clears up one issue. Now I'm just curious how much a rural village knows about shards...

It's common for worlds in the Cosmere to have religion based on Shards. 

[StormblessDave]

5 hours ago, Crucible of Shards said:

Thanks! That clears up one issue. Now I'm just curious how much a rural village knows about shards...

Yeah its weird how the local people of Roshar know so much about what's going on and yet don't lol. A lot of their everyday conversations include very accurate saying, the most striking(for me) was this one :' Taln'el bearer of agonies'. I believe this was discussed in a previous thread.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Yeah its weird how the local people of Roshar know so much about what's going on and yet don't lol. A lot of their everyday conversations include very accurate saying, the most striking(for me) was this one :' Taln'el bearer of agonies'. I believe this was discussed in a previous thread.

"Talenelat'Elin, bearer of all agonies" 

Yeah. That one really shouldn't be common knowledge. 

[Toaster Retribution]

This made me think. What if the Broken One isn't Odium, but Honor? Once, humanity had three gods (Honor, Cultivation and Odium). Odium and Cultivation are still alive, but forgotten by humanity (or at least not worshipped). Honor aka the Almighty aka the guy who got splintered, would be the Broken One, the one who reigns, since he is the only one still worshipped. 

And to be honest, I never got why Odium is called the Broken One anyway.

[red032]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

"Talenelat'Elin, bearer of all agonies" 

Yeah. That one really shouldn't be common knowledge. 

Calderis, it makes sense if you think that would be something the Heralds would say after the recreance.
They took ruling positions it would be fair to assume that their sayings were copied by their followers who doesn´t really know what those sayings really mean.

[Calderis]

20 minutes ago, red032 said:

Calderis, it makes sense if you think that would be something the Heralds would say after the recreance.
They took ruling positions it would be fair to assume that their sayings were copied by their followers who doesn´t really know what those sayings really mean.

I doubt it. 

First, I don't believe that the Heralds would call each other by their Vorin names including the "Elin" (Herald) title. They'd just call him Taln. 

Second, Their supposed to have went their separate ways and tried to dissappear. Obviously some of them broke that, but we don't know what roles they ended up in. I feel like if a Herald had put themselves in some ruling role though, the other Heralds would have had an issue with it. They were supposed to disappear. 

[dionysus]

7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This made me think. What if the Broken One isn't Odium, but Honor? Once, humanity had three gods (Honor, Cultivation and Odium). Odium and Cultivation are still alive, but forgotten by humanity (or at least not worshipped). Honor aka the Almighty aka the guy who got splintered, would be the Broken One, the one who reigns, since he is the only one still worshipped. 

And to be honest, I never got why Odium is called the Broken One anyway.

Jasnah confirms that cultivation is worshiped extensively, just not in Alethkar and the surrounding areas in the east. I believe she talks about the west having a different divinity more. Here it is, page 73 of ebook. "Cultivation, the god worshiped in the West, is a female deity that is an embodiment of nature and natural spren."

I also agree there is a good chance that Honor is the Broken One. As to him reigning, maybe it is because a whole lot of Honor's investiture is running rampant in Roshar without an intelligence guiding it. It is influencing things, but not in a unified manner.

Edited August 25, 2017 by dionysus

[Calderis]

I don't know why Odium is referred to as the broken one, but the Stormfather's assertion of "Odium reigns" runs counter to the argument of the "broken one" being Honor.

Edit: Here's the excerpt, I think it makes it fairly clear that Odium is exerting the most influence over Roshar currently. 

Quote

Something blew against him. “Wait!” Kaladin said. “Why is there so much war? Must we always fight?” He wasn’t sure why he asked. The questions simply came out.

The storm rumbled, like a thoughtful aged father. The face vanished, shattering into droplets of water.

More softly, the voice answered, ODIUM REIGNS.

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

@dionysus I forgot about that quote, thank you. Anyway, I wonder how big parts of the west this concerns. The Shin pbviously worships something entirely different.

@Calderis What you say is true. I do think that you can have influence in different ways, and Honor might talk about one kind of influence, while the Death Rattles concerns another. 

[FiveLate]

@Toaster Retribution

So do the Iri....

 

[The One Who Connects]

On 8/25/2017 at 0:45 AM, Calderis said:

"Talenelat'Elin, bearer of all agonies" 

Yeah. That one really shouldn't be common knowledge. 

Unlikely Speculation: We have information that they don't have. What if that makes our perspective wrong this time?

---

Think about what could be known about Taln to earn him that title.

Per Kalak, Taln had a habit of choosing impossible fights and winning, often dying in the process. Dying in battle is painful already, but add to that all the pain and injuries he would have to fight through to ensure that he wins the impossible fight. The Stonewards were noted for exemplifying their Patron Herald's resolve, stubbornness and strength. Taln is a giant and built like a literal brick wall.

I've always pictured Taln walking across the battlefield like a literal god amongst men, standing up to anything the enemy can dish out and returning the pain in quick succession. We know that KR and normal mortals fought in the Desolations too, probably with the Heralds leading the charge. I could easily see him getting a reputation for enduring great pains and injuries and carrying on anyway. Something like that is the type of thing to become legend.