Overhyped Character

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I wholeheartedly agree and I too have been bothered by Dalinar though not precisely for all of the same reasons. 1) I am annoyed about how his naivety has for the most part gone unpunished. He has not truly felt the consequences of being as naive as he is save the incident on the tower.2) His flaws seem too small for a character of his importance. He comes off as almost too honorable and just despite what we know about him. These combined with what you have said truly makes his character one that seems too overhyped.

I think the reason his flaws currently feel small is because we have only browsed the tip of the iceberg. He is a double-edged knife: incredibly forgiving towards those he has sympathy for (and yes that includes Sadeas), but incredibly hard towards those not having earned it (Adolin most notably). I do think there is a real possibility the next book will show Dalinar prosecuting his own son when he wouldn't do the same for Sadeas... It may even start to look as if Dalinar would pick Sadeas over Adolin.... May. I said may, but there is a rational to be had for it.

This being said, I do think Dalinar is a man who remains true to his word. The problem is his word can be influenced by his emotions, especially guilt.

[Lady Stormlight]

Adolin. I'm sorry but I just don't find anything about him even remotely interesting. He's a good person, good officer, good son, good brother so I don't dislike him.  I just find him...meh.  We're 2000+ pages into this epic and so far he only exists to flesh out the story arcs of first Dalinar in TWoK and now Shallan in WOR.  Maybe this will change with his action at the end of WOR but, well, someone had to do it.  I suspect he'll be needed to flesh out Renarin's story next.  As an individual character he still feels two dimensional to me. Like Navani, really, but with her it's even more so.

If we're talking about characters from the Interlude, I'd have to go with Lift.  She mostly annoyed me.  I kept wishing Wyndle could divorce her.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Lady Stormlight

[StormblessDave]

10 hours ago, Lady Stormlight said:

If we're talking about characters from the Interlude, I'd have to go with Lift.  She mostly annoyed me.  I kept wishing Wyndle could divorce her

I agree that she's overhyped, and I did dislike her overbearing, irritating behavior. However Edgedancer really changed my views on her, keep in mind, she is broken and just a child.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

I'm big enough to admit that the stick is over hyped, but that does change my love for stick and that scene!

 

I'm probably about to open up a giant can of worms here. I think Syl is over hyped. I do like and enjoy Syl, but there are things about her character that I find troubling. More than any other spren, she's treated her bind with Kaladin like it is his responsibility to keep her alive. Maybe this is something that other spren will develop, but it plays out sometimes to me as an abusive relationship where Syl is using the threat if her death as a club to force Kaladin's actions. It makes me especially uncomfortable because at times it almost seems to be an exploitation of Kaladin''s depression. This all is motivated by the fact that she is not intentionally and maliciously manipulating him in this way, but there's a certain innate possessiveness and controlling aspect to her character that makes their relationship seem to have a very unhealthy dynamic. Even on her return to him, she says that she has claimed him and he is hers. She wasn't killed, because their bond hadn't progressed far enough if I understand correctly, so up until then she could even have theoretically found someone else to bond. 

 

I don't dislike Syl, and I don't think she has a bad character, but I do think she's over hyped as an innocent and honorable character when there is a darker side of her actions and behaviors.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Ookla the Obtuse

[Mason Wheeler]

26 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'm probably about to open up a giant can if works here. I think Syl is over hyped. I do like and enjoy Syl, but there are things about her character that I find troubling. More than any other spren, she's treated her bind with Kaladin like it is his responsibility to keep her alive. Maybe this is something that other spren will develop, but it plays out sometimes to me as an abusive relationship where Syl is using the threat if her death as a club to force Kaladin's actions.

On the other hand, we haven't seen anything to indicate that she has the ability to destroy their bond and break her side of the oath.  Therefore, if Kaladin is the only one who is capable of screwing it up, then it *is* his responsibility not to, right?

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

4 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

On the other hand, we haven't seen anything to indicate that she has the ability to destroy their bond and break her side of the oath.  Therefore, if Kaladin is the only one who is capable of screwing it up, then it *is* his responsibility not to, right?

She made her own decision to leave the cognitive realm against the Stormfather's orders to make herself vulnerable and bond a human. Her mortality is her own responsibility now. Pattern accepts as much when he states that Shallan will eventually kill him. Most spren treat this as a forgone conclusion, Syl uses it as a weapon against Kaladin, even if unintentionally.

[+robardin he/him]

If you find Lift annoying, I suppose you found (or would find) Spook's Eastern street cant annoying in Mistborn. Well, notting the not on the pleasing of all.

I rather like the potential for an A-S-K love triangle. To me, it drives home how in the middle of this epic Final Desolation thing engulfing Roshar, and the larger threat that Odium appears to pose to the entire Cosmere (presumably only if he "wins" there), and how we have these brave and broken heroes on the front lines, that they're also still people, and not just plot vehicles for doing some righteous stabbing at the culminating action points of the story.

As for my vote on an "overhyped" character, I'll just come out and say it: Hoid.

It's because he's TOO interesting. He's (so far) a background character to the central SA story, who knows a lot but is prone to giving information in infuriatingly oblique ways, and often referencing off-world images or using powers gained from elsewhere in the Cosmere.

I suppose I'll find out in time, but I don't see what some of his infuriating appearances on Roshar contributed to the SA story arc, though I guess I'll discover how they fit into HIS story arc that spans multiple Cosmere threads. Like when he appeared on the carriage roof when Adolin, Shallan, and Kaladin go to the menagerie. He asks Kaladin if he's lost the flute he gave him, implies that he knows Kaladin is a Windrunner, teases Adolin a bit, gets surprised by a hug from Shallan, then disappears again. WHAA? What just happened, and why?

However, I can't help but find myself looking for Hoid appearances, parsing his comments and actions for insight into what he might be up to, wondering why his "spidey sense" led him to that particular place and point in time, and what the "big picture" of what's going on with the Cosmere and its worldhopping factions might be. That is something of a distraction in enjoying the Stormlight Archive for what it is on its own.

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by robardin

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I agree about Syl, she is somewhat annoying sometimes. She seems to think that she lacks faults, which kind of bothers me. She has a quite demanding feel as well sometimes. I don´t actively dislike her, but I hardly love her either. There are far more interesting characters around in my opinion.

19 minutes ago, robardin said:

righteous stabbing 

For this, you get an upvote.

[Harakeke]

On 8/16/2017 at 9:43 AM, Calderis said:

Stick. (you knew it was coming) 

I see a lot of potential for Lift in the back half, but as she is now? I totally agree with you. 

Stick is not an overhyped character. 
Stick is a stick.

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, Harakeke said:

Stick is not an overhyped character. 
Stick is a stick.

Exactly my point.

[Worldhopper he/him]

Adolin definitely, everyone else including Renarin has something interesting surrounding them. Adolin seems like a big deal but he's really not. Although as Radiants start popping up all over the gaff I think his character will get more interesting and darker.

[Duke of Lizards she/her]

Navani

She isn't really over-hyped (or hyped at all for that matter), but I see people cheering on her relationship with Dalinar and I'm over here like "I don't trust this B."

[Duke of Lizards she/her]

On 9/5/2017 at 11:58 AM, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I'm probably about to open up a giant can if works here. I think Syl is over hyped.

Also, this.  

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Going with the Maxal defense of "don't bring up x if you don't want x to keep coming up in the thread:"

16 hours ago, Harakeke said:

Stick is not an overhyped character. 
Stick is a stick.

I do want to point out that the stick has a POV chapter, therefore, the stick is a character. It's on his website. It's canon, important note for context included. 

 

https://brandonsanderson.com/words-of-radiance-deleted-interlude-stick/

Edited September 8, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

15 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I do want to point out that the stick has a POV chapter, therefore, the stick is a character. It's on his website. It's canon, important note for context included. 

Then Stick is just back to being overrated again. 

[StormblessDave]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:30 PM, robardin said:

If you find Lift annoying, I suppose you found (or would find) Spook's Eastern street cant annoying in Mistborn. Well, notting the not on the pleasing of all.

Surprisingly, I really enjoyed Spook's character, though that was probably because I was a huge Kelsier fan.

As for Syl, I enjoyed her moments due to her childlike innocence and openness, which makes her 'darker' actions more understandable. To a child, the whole world revolves around her, which is similar to Syl's case. As for her possessiveness, I feel that is necessary when you're dealing with someone who fears about losing everything all the time. Her claiming Kal would have been the biggest comfort to him.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

7 minutes ago, StormblessDave said:

Surprisingly, I really enjoyed Spook's character, though that was probably because I was a huge Kelsier fan.

I am a huge Kelsier fan as well, but I do not like Spook at all.

[StormblessDave]

10 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I am a huge Kelsier fan as well, but I do not like Spook at all.

By book 2, I loved how important the Survivor had become, however I was a little disappointed by how Vin and the others didn't seem to think too highly of him(very understandable), Docks and and Spook were the only faithful(lol, I'm pathetic) which made me like them. Stupid reason, but its that simple lol

[Darkness he/him]

 

On 20/08/2017 at 5:27 AM, maxal said:

Hoid is always aware of more than people lets one and his teasing always has for purpose to tell others what he thinks they need to hear. It is why he is no nice to Renarin, he wants to encourage him. He tells Kaladin stories having the possibility of encouraging him embracing his destiny. He tells Shallan what she needs to hear to keep on trying and move out of her block. He deeply respects Dalinar, but Adolin? What has he told him which was significant? Nothing. He has no interest in him, he doesn't even try with him. 

In shorts, Hoid has acted as if Adolin was expendable. Not necessary. Not required. Not needed. Not important.

It'd be great if one of the other characters were to actually care about Adolin, him who cares about everyone.

I am on the train of 'Adolin is the most overhyped in SA'. I don't dislike the guy. I actually liked him a lot more before all the discussion about him, unfortunately. Now I just... you know... wouldn't be sad if he had as little a part as, say, Rock.

All that said, I do want to point out something I see as an inconsistency in your arguement, and actually it's a point in Adolin's favour.

Hoid says to good people what they need to hear in order to be stronger, better, more capable. He acts this way with Jasnah (giving her knowledge and directness), and you already mentioned the rest. But you maybe missed the key part here. Hoid doesn't make special efforts to make Adolin grow. Why not? Well... you could argue that Hoid doesn't care if a non-radiant son of Dalinar falls by the wayside, but that honestly seems unlikely. It doesn't fit the demonstrated character of Hoid, who invests quite a bit of effort into everyone around him. Making Adolin the exception to this rule makes less sense to me than applying the rule to Adolin. Applying that rule would mean that Hoid quite simply knows that Adolin is doing just fine and doesn't need his special consideration.

I take it as a compliment to Adolin that Hoid spends so much time with him, but doesn't spend it all trying to reshape him, because Adolin is already growing in the right direction on his own, and Hoid sees that. It's also quite possible that Hoid saw Adolin's fascination for Shallan and, knowing the track record of interest --> boredom --> next venture, Hoid intervened a little in the interest of making Adolin actually have stakes, something to fight for, which makes the union more valuable and durable to Adolin. I admit that part is total speculation though.

On a different note, a few pages back you made the comment that 'Adolin is the most anticipated character in Oathbringer' or something like that, but you forgot to specify 'to me'.  Just saying that at least to me, Adolin's arc, even with the cliffhanger from WoR, still just feels like a distraction from the real story. Probably why I don't really enjoy Rysn that much either. Too much hype, not enough relevance. I see that Adolin lent valuable perspective to our main characters, and Rysn did a beautiful bit of world building, but I'm just not biting my nails over their personal stories.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Darkness said:

I am on the train of 'Adolin is the most overhyped in SA'. I don't dislike the guy. I actually liked him a lot more before all the discussion about him, unfortunately. Now I just... you know... wouldn't be sad if he had as little a part as, say, Rock.

Please correct me if I misunderstood you, you are saying you now wish for Adolin to have as little of a role as possible because other readers are talking about him? This is a rather odd way of thinking... If seems the equivalent of myself saying I'd rather Kaladin were removed from the story because I dislike the fact readers are talking about him.

Why wish for a character other readers enjoy to disappear within the story just so discussion on the matter should die? I mean, anyone is free to ignore any discussion which does not please them.

4 minutes ago, Darkness said:

All that said, I do want to point out something I see as an inconsistency in your arguement, and actually it's a point in Adolin's favour.

Hoid says to good people what they need to hear in order to be stronger, better, more capable. He acts this way with Jasnah (giving her knowledge and directness), and you already mentioned the rest. But you maybe missed the key part here. Hoid doesn't make special efforts to make Adolin grow. Why not? Well... you could argue that Hoid doesn't care if a non-radiant son of Dalinar falls by the wayside, but that honestly seems unlikely. It doesn't fit the demonstrated character of Hoid, who invests quite a bit of effort into everyone around him. Making Adolin the exception to this rule makes less sense to me than applying the rule to Adolin. Applying that rule would mean that Hoid quite simply knows that Adolin is doing just fine and doesn't need his special consideration.

I take it as a compliment to Adolin that Hoid spends so much time with him, but doesn't spend it all trying to reshape him, because Adolin is already growing in the right direction on his own, and Hoid sees that. It's also quite possible that Hoid saw Adolin's fascination for Shallan and, knowing the track record of interest --> boredom --> next venture, Hoid intervened a little in the interest of making Adolin actually have stakes, something to fight for, which makes the union more valuable and durable to Adolin. I admit that part is total speculation though.

Fair enough. I'll withhold further judgement on Hoid's actions, but I still believe him insisting Kaladin ought to court Shallan wasn't a decision he made for Adolin's benefit, but to Kaladin's benefit. In shorts, he wants Kaladin to over-come his biased against lighteyed, so he encourages him to flirt with one. He does not care if Adolin ends up being hurt by it because whether or not Adolin grows or not doesn't matter within his grand plans. In shorts, Hoid doesn't care about Adolin, he doesn't care if he grows, if he falls, if anything: to him he is not important and while it may be the right choice to make for him, I found it painful to read. Hence, I strongly dislike Hoid.

My point wasn't the fact Hoid doesn't make any effort towards Adolin, more the fact he doesn't care if he is collateral damage in his attempt to make the Radiants grow. Also, Adolin never fought for a girl. Kadash lectures him on being more persevere back in WoK. I doubt Hoid had any secondary intentions of having Adolin work for Shallan: it was entirely meant for Kaladin.

This is how I am reading it anyway, but we'll see how it evolves.

4 minutes ago, Darkness said:

On a different note, a few pages back you made the comment that 'Adolin is the most anticipated character in Oathbringer' or something like that, but you forgot to specify 'to me'.  Just saying that at least to me, Adolin's arc, even with the cliffhanger from WoR, still just feels like a distraction from the real story. Probably why I don't really enjoy Rysn that much either. Too much hype, not enough relevance. I see that Adolin lent valuable perspective to our main characters, and Rysn did a beautiful bit of world building, but I'm just not biting my nails over their personal stories.

Adolin is an anticipated character and not just to me which is why I phrased it this way. I base myself on the interest I have seen everywhere onto the fandom within his character: a lot of threads have been created in order to discuss him and a lot of people have commented on them. A lot of readers have said they had a lot of interest within his character: I have not seen a similar number of readers express the same thoughts for more prominent characters such as Shallan or Eshonai. Not to say there aren't readers deeply invested into them, but I haven't sensed a similar hype. Myself I have never created one thread to discuss Adolin: this was all the work of others, I merely commented, abundantly so, but I was not the investigator. I also did not hallucinate the people who actually responded.

In the end, it all ends up to what kind of readers we are: I find the tropes, subjects and conflicts evolving around Adolin to be very interesting and important too. I could also argue Kaladin going back home also is a distraction from the "real story" as it serves no "bigger" purpose other than writing something about his character. As far as I am concerned, all characters have story arcs which serve their character and not the "real story", I find it odd others would argue Adolin ought to not get one because it won't further the narrative. We do not know this. 

As for Rysn, she is just a recurring minor character. Brandon obviously as a plan for her and while her interludes weren't my favorite read, I am sure they will play a role, eventually, hence why we are reading them.

[PlanetReelo she/her]

Navani probably. She never grew on me, I suppose because I always felt a bit like she manipulated Dalinar in their first few interactions. Plus I have a soft spot for Gavilar so hearing her speak as if she didn't give a damnation about him even whilst he lived made me dislike her more. Not to mention her irrationally cold attitude towards Shallan initially, though I suppose she was just exhibiting grief in her own bizzare, entitled way.

I do agree that Adolin has a very reverent cult following on 17th Shard. Whilst I like the guy, I'm not sure I adore him the way a lot of people on here do so in that way I suppose he is 'overhyped', technically speaking.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

2 hours ago, StormblessDave said:

As for Syl, I enjoyed her moments due to her childlike innocence and openness, which makes her 'darker' actions more understandable. To a child, the whole world revolves around her, which is similar to Syl's case. As for her possessiveness, I feel that is necessary when you're dealing with someone who fears about losing everything all the time. Her claiming Kal would have been the biggest comfort to him.

I think Syl's pass for her actions expires before they come into play. She had. Her 'lost innocence' moment when Kaladin and Bridge Four decided to save Dalinar. Her personality certainly affects innocence and playfulness, but that's not an excuse for other manipulative actions. She's not a child, she remembers enough to be sentient, she understands death, and she remembers what happened to previous spren. More importantly, she remembers choosing to defy the stormfather, and does so again at the end of WoR. For me, having a playful attitude and maintaining childlike wonder doesn't excuse you from manipulation. 

 

Like I said, I really like Syl, but she's got a darker side that gets smokescreened by her levity and flippant nature.

[btcannon]

For me, after reading WoK and WoR, my clear choice was Lift. When I found out that Edgedancer was all about her, my response was a huge inner sigh. 

After reading Edgedancer, however, I feel like we definitely saw some character development and got some hints as to her encounter with the Nightwatcher that cause me to suspect that when we learn more about her background, we will perhaps feel more sympathetic to her eccentricities (which admittedly drove me crazy). We even saw her begin to question whether Wyndle was actually a voidbringer, finally.

I also agree that Lopen is hugely overhyped. As a character who (let's admit it) exists almost exclusively for comic relief, he hasn't contributed much to the depth of the plot thus far, in my opinion. I feel like he is kind of a cheap caricature. (Not to say that I didn't chuckle at a few of his lines--I simply feel jarred out of the story by his character from time to time.) It would be a lot like Brandon, however, to prove me absolutely wrong about him going forward. He has a way of taking characters that I don't love (Lift, Spook) and making them much more interesting over the course of multiple chapters and books.

[StormblessDave]

16 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I think Syl's pass for her actions expires before they come into play. She had. Her 'lost innocence' moment when Kaladin and Bridge Four decided to save Dalinar. Her personality certainly affects innocence and playfulness, but that's not an excuse for other manipulative actions. She's not a child, she remembers enough to be sentient, she understands death, and she remembers what happened to previous spren. More importantly, she remembers choosing to defy the stormfather, and does so again at the end of WoR. For me, having a playful attitude and maintaining childlike wonder doesn't excuse you from manipulation. 

 

Like I said, I really like Syl, but she's got a darker side that gets smokescreened by her levity and flippant nature.

Kaladin's character growth is accompanied by Syl's growth, with growth comes understanding. Manipulation?If your sentience which you have just gained back is at stake by someone who might make a different decision, you'd definitely do your best to make sure that doesn't happen, its very understandable to me.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

3 hours ago, StormblessDave said:

Kaladin's character growth is accompanied by Syl's growth, with growth comes understanding. Manipulation?If your sentience which you have just gained back is at stake by someone who might make a different decision, you'd definitely do your best to make sure that doesn't happen, its very understandable to me.

The first thing I notice about your argument is that you don't even attempt to refute that those actions I specified are indeed morally questionable, instead moving to identify mitigating circumstances. This typifies the exact reason I think Syl is over hyped: her actions deserve a pass because of 'x.' Still, I'm going to try to address your argument.

 

In some ways, Kaladin''s growth is stymied by Syl because she's manipulating him to shape him into who she wants him to be. It is still character growth when he comes to view assassinating Elokhar as surgery to remove a festering wound, even if it's not what might be considered positive character growth. As a matter of fact, Kaladin''s greatest 'positive' character growth comes when he is without Syl during the Weeping towards the end of WoR.

 

"If your sentience which you have just gained back..."

Gained back implies loss. Loss implies a lack of choice. The most important nuance to my argument is that Syl chose to lose her sentience and make herself vulnerable despite having the knowledge of what exactly that would entail. If someone chose to do something risky, like bungee jumping, and got severely injured, then went into kidney failure from the antibiotics, I would still consider it morally reprehensible for them to manipulate someone into giving them a kidney, even though their life is at stake. Syl does not lose personal responsibility for her actions and cognizant choices.

 

"It's very understandable to me."

There are a great number of morally questionable actions that I can understand the motivations and impetus behind them. That doesn't change the morality of it. The two aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

 

Let me give a clear example. Right before Kaladin jumps into the four shardbearer duel, he worries that things will turn out like they did with Amaram. Syl, only concerned with doing the 'honorable' thing, promises that it will be different. Kaladin ends up in prison. Syl has manipulated his trust in her, broken her own code (albeit without intent), and faces no personal consequences from it. 

Edited September 10, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak