TheDoomsday he/him Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 We always talk about what happened to the spren when the Radiants broke their oaths. But I feel like we never talk about what is, in my opinion, the biggest question in the series. Why did the Radiants break their oaths? What happened that was so monumental, the orders had to give up everything they were? I suspect we will find out over the next few books. But I'd like to see what people think. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 It might be due to the Heralds madness. Granted, I think there is at least some hundred years between breaking the Oathpact and the Recreance, so the madness would have had to come slowly in that case. Stil, since Roshar loves bonds, it would be logical to assume that there were some kind of bond between the Heralds and their Orders. And because of that, I think it is plausible that the Radiants went mad and abandoned their oaths, and betrayed mankind. They went mad along with their masters, simply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 Here we go... This is a topic that's died down a bit, but it's been discussed. A lot. On topic: I think that the Radiants are drawn into the Oathpact, and like the Heralds go to Braize when they die. Knowledge of this by itself, would be enough to break most. If in addition they learned that like the Heralds, their presence perpetuates the cycle of desolations... Walking away would be seen as the best option. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoomsday he/him Posted August 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 I agree that it is likely to do with the Heralds abandoning the Oathpact, but I feel like there is something else. The Braize idea makes sense. I still feel like we are missing something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 (edited) There is definetely a piece or several that we are missing. Some orders are nearly based on sacrifice, and some individuals would never kill their spren no matter what the cause. Madness doesn't entirely make sense, as it seems impossible that madness would come upon all the radiants together at the same time (as the Recreance was very fast, not accros years or decades I believe). Even going to Braize does not seem enough, some like Szeth would be honorable to a fault, if their fate was to spend eternity suffering some would do so stoically. Their presence perpetuating the desolations is a tricky one, this could be the most likely one, but even then it seems...to not entirely fit. They had been around for centuries without Desolations, why not, if they decide to stop the Radiants, just ask the spren to stop bonding with men? Elsecallers could apparently do a lot in Shadesmar, and had contact with the spren. If they did that the Orders would disappear after that generation died AND they wouldn't have to kill their spren to stop the cycle. This is even further complicated as we are not sure it is true that radiants cause the desolaations. None of these seem truly satisfactory, at least not on their own. The one piece we do know, is Mr T likely knows it (or knew on his day of making the Diagram), and knows it could be used again to topple the RK. Edited August 13, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passion he/him Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 I agree with whiteleapard that it seems a bit strange that they all betrayed at the same time and there were no self sacrificing kr. I also want to point out that we are presented with the narrative from the Soren perspective as one of complete betrayal with no recognition of any basis if the recreance had some self justified basis even if the Spren who were harmed don't see it that way they still wouldn't come across so self righteously indignant with no recognition what so ever one guess I've been pondering is the possibilities the knight radians thought to gain something in the fight with odium dirs any one no any connection between the radiant siren and odium or of any side benefit to abandoning soren in their fight with odium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix2563 Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 I think it might have something to do with the Herald's current attempts to prevent a future desolation. Edgedancer spoilers: Spoiler Nalan has been killing surgebinders in order to avoid the development of new Radiants. He is working with at least Ishar to this end. They think that somehow Radiants with a Nahel bond pose a risk of ushering in a desolation. The Heralds think they have broken their part of a future desolation by breaking the Oathpact, so now the second goal would be to stop the Radiants from being in existence, to ensure no future bonds are formed. The initial part of this plan was likely orchestrated by Ishar himself during the Recreance, in instructing the Radiants to do what they did (breaking the Nahel bonds, thus killing the Spren) for the future of mankind or something along those lines. If the act was not done in this manner (ie no spren are harmed), this does nothing to prevent the spren from forming new bonds later. In short, what better way to ensure no future Nahel bonds are formed than to scare off any potential Radiant spren with the knowledge of what occurred at the Recreance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Okay, minor Edgedancer spoilers that are kind of the basis of this idea. Not mine, and I don't quite remember who posited it, but it's become my head canon so I'll explain as best I can. Spoiler In Edgedancer, Nale implies that with the regulation of Honor, the Nahel bonds will progress beyond what they did in the past. So I believe that previously, the Radiants were drawn into the Oathpact, and their presence did help to bring about desolations, although much reduced to the effects the Heralds have. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#10 Quote QUESTION () What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture. BRANDON SANDERSON Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end. QUESTION Oh. So they've got a time limit. BRANDON SANDERSON They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again. QUESTION So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations? BRANDON SANDERSON They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think. So if this idea is correct, then without Honor the Radiants have the potential to progress to the point of becoming new heralds and triggering a desolation. As far as the old Radiants are concerned, they were by this idea, embryonic heralds. They may not have had the ability to trigger a desolation themselves, but their presence along weakened the boundaries. That said, this is a lie I think. The Heralds never left. The Radiants may have contributed to the weakening of the boundaries, but the Heralds themselves were still there and the Oathpact "not as broken as they'd like to believe." I think Odium could have started this desolation immediately, and has just decided to play the long con. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoomsday he/him Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, Calderis said: Okay, minor Edgedancer spoilers that are kind of the basis of this idea. Not mine, and I don't quite remember who posited it, but it's become my head canon so I'll explain as best I can. Reveal hidden contents In Edgedancer, Nale implies that with the regulation of Honor, the Nahel bonds will progress beyond what they did in the past. So I believe that previously, the Radiants were drawn into the Oathpact, and their presence did help to bring about desolations, although much reduced to the effects the Heralds have. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#10 So if this idea is correct, then without Honor the Radiants have the potential to progress to the point of becoming new heralds and triggering a desolation. As far as the old Radiants are concerned, they were by this idea, embryonic heralds. They may not have had the ability to trigger a desolation themselves, but their presence along weakened the boundaries. That said, this is a lie I think. The Heralds never left. The Radiants may have contributed to the weakening of the boundaries, but the Heralds themselves were still there and the Oathpact "not as broken as they'd like to believe." I think Odium could have started this desolation immediately, and has just decided to play the long con. That WoB may actually mean that Taln started the desolations again when he came back to Roshar. All the Heralds would be on Roshar While we are on the subject, how did Taln escape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 We don't have enough information, but IMO the Splintering of Honor is key here. This doesn't seem to be a known event on Roshar - the Vorin cultures still think Honor/the Almighty is alive & actively being God - so somehow Odium splintered Honor without creating the vast destruction and death of a Desolation. Honor was Splintered after the Recreance -- maybe shortly after? Somehow, the Radiants had a choice - to let Honor be Splintered, without harm to humanity; or to fight to prevent it, inducing another Desolation, which they might lose without the Heralds, and even if they won would kill off 90%+ of humanity and destroy civilization. So they broke their oaths, rejecting Honor, and let him die. I don't entirely think my old theory on these lines (linked in my signature) is 100% correct, since I don't know how to reconcile it with the 'Heralds breaking starts a Desolation' thing. OTOH, somehow we have to reconcile: - Honor was Splintered without a major cataclysm on Roshar; - Dominion and Devotion were Splintered on Sel, and despite their being no living Shard like Cultivation to oppose Odium there, humanity survived and the world remains "Earthlike", not twisted into some kind of hellscape. It's possible that Odium is only actually interested in killing and torturing beings of very high Investiture/power level like Shards/Heralds. He might not really be a threat to ordinary humans, or even 'ordinary' Cosmere magic users. (Yes, I know there is the vision of Roshar crumbling to dust. But if this idea is true, Honor isn't necessarily a reliable source. He isn't necessarily strictly a 'good' Shard - the word honor has a lot of meanings, many of which are good but some of which can be quite destructive. And it seems that the Shard Honor is about Oaths and Bonds, not necessarily Justice and Virtue. Even if he's honest, he might be warped by his Intent -- after thousands of years of the Oathpact, he might truly believe Odium escaping is the worst possible thing even if that's not actually true.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDoomsday he/him Posted August 14, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) Just clarifying, the Recreance happened after the Heralds abandoned the oathpact, right? Edited August 14, 2017 by TheDoomsday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aemetha he/him Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 43 minutes ago, TheDoomsday said: Just clarifying, the Recreance happened after the Heralds abandoned the oathpact, right? Yes, apparently quite a long time after though the exact timeframe isn't known. My personal barely formed theory is that Honor betrayed the radiants, at least from their perspective. I think it's possible that Honor could have done things differently and spared humanity the suffering of the desolations, but his shardic intent wouldn't let him. Honor dictates that odium must be opposed whatever the cost, and the cost has been untold suffering for humanity. I wonder about the Tranquiline Halls too. If the Tranquiline Halls were Braize, and Braize is now Odiums prison, who does that suggest is more likely responsible for mankinds eviction, Honor or Odium? Feel free to debunk my barely formed theory, I likely won't have time to expand or debunk it myself until I finish composing my ode to Lift 'The girl who ate the world'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 The most important aspect of the Recreance from my perspective is what the Radiants apparently did during it, assuming Dalanar's vision is more or less accurate. In particular, they killed their spren. This is in my opinion the single most important aspect that needs to be explained by any theory regarding the reason for the Recreance. What would cause Kaladin to callously kill off Syl? Because this is effectively what the Windrunners do in Dalanar's vision. It's pretty hard to imagine that, if the Windrunners are anything like Kaladin, that they would all be so casually willing to kill off innocents regardless of the potential consequences or peripheral association with the real problem. Even if the bond was somehow causing the Desolations or whatever, I don't think that alone would be sufficient to treat their spren so coldly. If the spren weren't the cause or otherwise intimately involved, surely the Radiants could have found a different or at least a more respectful solution. This leads me to believe that the Recreance must have been somehow related to the spren themselves, in a fashion that would lead the Radiants to believe that the spren were guilty of something that justified killing them. Let's look at the end of WoR for a possible candidate for something that might qualify (emphasis mine): Quote “He let everyone believe that he’d killed her,” Shallan whispered. “That he’d murdered his wife and her lover in a rage, when I was the one who had actually killed them. He lied to protect me.” “I know.” “That secret destroyed him. It destroyed our entire family.” “I know.” “I hate you,” she whispered, staring into her mother’s dead eyes. “I know.” Pattern buzzed softly. “Eventually, you will kill me, and you will have your revenge.” “I don’t want revenge. I want my family.” Shallan wrapped her arms around herself and buried her head in them, weeping as the illusion bled white smoke, then vanished, leaving her in an empty room. Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1059). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. What's something that could cause Kaladin to consider killing Syl? Well, let's see what caused Kaladin to become broken enough to bond Syl in the first place: Tien's death. What if Kaladin was convinced that Syl caused Tien's death somehow? And that she benefited from Tien's death. We know that Radiants need to be 'broken' to bond with spren. We know that spren gain sentience from the bond, and that the spren like the benefits of being bonded. What if the spren (perhaps only a subset of them) intentionally caused trauma to make more hosts available for bonding? It doesn't necessarily have to just be the spren. Maybe somebody thought it might be really helpful to a bunch more Radiants around and made it seem like the spren were complicit (or perhaps just not opposed). Ultimately, something that seemed to indicate their spren were somehow benefiting or profiting from their breaking, and doing so intentionally. That's my 'bond farming' theory of the Recreance: The spren intentionally (or perhaps unintentionally, but inevitably, e.g. natural reaction as 'dumb' spren) created potential Radiants by 'breaking' them, or were framed as doing so. This 'secret' was what caused the Radiants to disassociate with the spren, and in a fashion that punished the spren. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowmancer he/him Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 So the "Wicked thing of eminence" [somewhere in the chapter headings, I'm too tired to look it up] that has been mentioned makes me think it's a bit more than a simple "we found out we're going to be tortured for all eternity" or "this spren made my family member die." I think that somehow, Odium was working on something that would bring about another Desolation. Perhaps something akin to the Preservation/Ruin dynamic, where they were diametrically opposed so that if one acted the other reacted to balance it out. Maybe by the increase of Radiants without the threat of the Desolation, Odium was able to squeeze Investiture into Roshar in a way he couldn't before. The wicked thing of eminence, I think, could be the Everstorm. Because Honor/Cultivation were creating Radiants, Odium was creating new forms for the Listeners, new forms that would bring on the Desolation cycle again in a new way. This new cycle, we have learned, is going to be different from the last cycle of Desolations [see Hoid at the end of WoR]. It might not be bound by the rules of the past, which could allow Odium to finally break free of his prison. If the Knights Radiant knew this, then I think they would have had a justifiable reason for all simultaneously breaking their oaths and consigning their friends to a fate worse than death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 The main thing that I still think needs to be considered is that the Nahel bond is consensual. The Radiants all broke their oaths together at a preset time. They planned the Recreance. This means that up to that point, whatever they had planned and acted on, the Spren agreed with. The main reason that I believe that the Radiants believed that Nale is correct, that the Radiants contribute to the cycle of desolations, us that the actions taken up to that point didn't inherently break the bond. So the Radiants believed that this choice was for the best and the Spren agreed. The Recreance wasn't a betrayal, no matter what the Spren that remained in the Cognitive Realm believe. The Spren were complicit and believed their deaths were necessary. Nothing else explains the ability to coordinate the Recreance. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calderis said: The main thing that I still think needs to be considered is that the Nahel bond is consensual. The Radiants all broke their oaths together at a preset time. They planned the Recreance. This means that up to that point, whatever they had planned and acted on, the Spren agreed with. Actually (with the usual caveat that assuming Dalanar's vision is correct): Quote “… the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.” ... “This is it, isn’t it? The Day of Recreance, the day you betrayed mankind. But why?” None of them spoke. It was as if he didn’t exist. People spoke of betrayal, of the day the Knights Radiant turned their backs on their fellow men. What were they fighting, and why had they stopped? Two orders of knights were mentioned, Dalinar thought. But there were ten orders. What of the other eight? Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 732). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. The Radiants didn't all break their bonds at once here (presumably). It's notable enough that Dalanar comments on it to himself. The ones that did break their bonds in this event are probably the two most 'honorable' Orders based on what we know about Windrunners, the founder of the Stonewards (Taln) and their apparent positions on the Surgebinding chart. It's quite possible (in the context of the bond farming theory) that their spren were only peripherally involved or most willing to accept the necessity of the broken bond. Again, whatever theory trying to explain the Recreance has to be able to explain why the Radiants (these particular ones) chose to break their bonds in this fashion. Surely there would have been ways to break their bond in a more private or more respectful manner towards the spren. The Radiants throw away their spren like trash, in a highly public way. It's hard not to interpret this as being something done out of highly personal motivation rather than simply calculated. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 3 minutes ago, Seloun said: Again, whatever theory trying to explain the Recreance has to be able to explain why the Radiants (these particular ones) chose to break their bonds in this fashion. Surely there would have been ways to break their bond in a more private or more respectful manner towards the spren. The Radiants throw away their spren like trash, in a highly public way. It's hard not to interpret this as being something done out of highly personal motivation rather than simply calculated. I disagree. If the goal were to prevent Radiants from occurring in the future, the best way would be to eliminate the Spren capable of forming a bond, and to intentionally and publicly pose it as the betrayal it's viewed as. Furthermore, just because we only see the two orders in the visions doesn't mean they alone did it. It's historically known as the "Day of Recreance" even if the time weren't perfectly coordinated, I'm betting the other Orders did the same in groups elsewhere. Goodnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 (edited) Yes, like Calderis pointed out, just because not all were there doesn't mean all radiants weren't all simultaneously doing it. From what we know it is quite likely that Windrunners and Stonewards got along well, and probably worked together often. If they were going to do a last act as Radiants, they might as well do it with their partners. What I'm most curious about that vision, is that they say the Radiants were fighting someone. Who was that someone? It couldn't be Voidbringers, as it wasn't a Desolation, and I find it hard to believe they would fight anyone in Roshar when they were tasked with been the Knights of all humanity, and likely had members of all nationalities. Edited August 24, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 @WhiteLeeopard I think at that point the Knights were fighting the Dysian Aimians. They're the only things I can think of outside of a desolation that could actually stand up to a Radiant I'm a fight. Their also extremely knowledgeable. I think the Aimians were, and still are, considered "evil" because they knew that the Heralds lied and were trying to convince people that the cycle of desolations had not ended. So people were upset that their gods were being slandered and things escalate to fighting. I think the Recreance occurred because, whatever the secret was, the Aimians were finally able to convince the Knights of... Something, and the Spren were able to confirm it was true. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteLeeopard she/her Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 I've seen that theory. Its as good as any, but I think the major problem with it was the timeline, as the destruction of Aimia seemed to happen later on. But I'm not completely certain of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 24, 2017 Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 5 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said: I've seen that theory. Its as good as any, but I think the major problem with it was the timeline, as the destruction of Aimia seemed to happen later on. But I'm not completely certain of that. Well if I'm right, the scouring wouldn't have occurred then. The Aimians convinced the Radiants that they were correct and so the Radiants stopped fighting them. I don't think the intent was to cause what occurred... But I also don't think that that was the time of the scouring. That seems to have been done by non-magical means in the much more recent past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galendo Posted August 25, 2017 Report Share Posted August 25, 2017 My honest opinion is that Brandon's sort of written himself into a corner here. I've considered nearly every reasonable possibility and found them all unsatisfactory. Some of the theories I've heard, and their refutations: 1) Theory: The KR get drawn into Braise when they die, and they don't like finding out. Why it fails: this doesn't work because many Knights presumably just wouldn't care, at least not enough to abandon their oaths. Szeth does what he does modern-day believing that he'll be eternally damned for it, so clearly fear of damnation isn't enough by itself. Besides, this also doesn't explain why they all broke their oaths at once. All they have to do is each individually break their oath before they die; it's not like there's any rush. 2) Theory: The continued presence of the KR threatens a Desolation. Why it fails: this fails to explain why the KR could have existed for millennia without causing a Desolation. Plus, delaying the Desolation by a few hundred years at the cost of all the people who could possibly fight it seems pretty dumb. 3) Theory: The continued presence of the KR draws power from Cultivation, leaving her vulnerable to Odium. Why it fails: this doesn't work because the Investiture of the nahel spren doesn't get returned to Cultivation after the Desolation but gets trapped in the Shardblades, which the KR presumably knew. Also, even if for some reason there were too many KR, or they were consuming too much Stormlight, it does not follow that all of them must abandon their oaths, only enough to bring the number down to an acceptable level. 4) Theory: The KR abandon Honor, believing Odium will then flee Roshar and leave them all alone. Why it fails: this seems completely anathema to the "Journey before Destination" thing, is foolishly optimistic, and doesn't seem to have worked anyway. It also fails to explain why all the KR went along with this, as it seems that Radiants like Kaladin just wouldn't be willing to kill their spren for such a nebulous and unnecessary (at the time, since there hadn't been a Desolation in ages) goal. Plus, this could not be used "to destroy the new Orders if they arise" as Honor is already dead and Odium obviously still around. 5) Theory: The spren are involved in breaking the KR, so the KR destroy them in vengeance or to stop it. Why it fails: this fails for the same reasons as the first theory. Some KR just wouldn't care, and there's no reason to jump into the Recreance all at once or right away -- before they individually die is plenty soon enough. 6) Theory: The KR discover the Heralds' deception, so they give up. Why it fails: much like theories 1) and 5), there's no reason to suppose that all KR would feel the need to quit, nor does it explain why they all need to quit at once. 7) Theory: The KR were put in a rock-and-a-hard-place situation, where abandoning their oaths was somehow inevitable no matter the choice. Why it fails: given the disparate nature of the Knights' oaths, the contradiction must have to do with the first oath. While it might just be a failure of imagination on my part, I can't see any situation that would force such an inevitability. Plus, it doesn't explain why the Recreance went down the way it did. Why didn't the Windrunners and Stonewards explain the dilemma to the leaders of Feverstone Keep and arrange a peaceful transfer of their Shards rather than leave the soldiers to fight among themselves? 8) Theory: The KR were mind-controlled by Odium. Why it fails: unlike the other theories, this is at least theoretically plausible (since we have no real idea what Odium is or isn't capable of doing), but it's not terribly satisfying and hasn't been foreshadowed in any way. Additionally, it seems to go against what we know about the way the magic works: the KR bonds to Honor and Cultivation ought to protect them from Odium's influence. Also, it could not be "the secret that broke the KR", since it's not a secret at all. There's probably a few more theories that I'm not thinking of at the moment, but I've never yet heard one that actually seemed believable. I've tried to include at least two objections to each theory mentioned above, but many of the theories have even more objections that I'm not stating for brevity. Basically, any believable theory has to answer the following objections: 1) Why did all the KR abandon their oaths? This is the big one. Note that all the above theories except the last and arguably the first and fifth fail to adequately address it. In my experience, you can't get ten people to all agree on where to have dinner on a given night. Getting thousands of people to all kill their bosom companions and, incidentally, give up on their superpowers, not to mention the oaths they've spent a lifetime upholding, just doesn't seem at all plausible. 2) Why did the Recreance happen all at once? Even if most or somehow all the KR were convinced to abandon their oaths, as in situations 1), 5), and 7), any believable theory needs to explain why they all did so at the same time. What time crunch were they under? This can be explained if the Recreance were some sort of mass suicide-pact in which there was fear that some individuals might not go along with it (it also leaves room for either the Lightweavers or Truthwatchers to be the betraying Order), but other theories, in particular any relying on individual dissatisfaction of the KR as its motivation, tend to founder here. 3) Why did the Recreance happen the way it did? Why didn't the Windrunners and Stonewards hand over their Shards peacefully? Why not explain their motivations to the people they were abandoning? There's a few other questions that individual theories would need to answer, but these are the big three. Of the theories listed, only the last can explain all three (it turns out that "mind control by Odium" can explain all sorts of things, from Tavargian to Amaram to Sadeas to Gaz to Nale to Elhokar's wife to whatever else you care to name; but it's neither satisfying, believable in its own right, nor well foreshadowed), and it has some other objections. All the others struggle to answer even one objection, and generally fail completely at the other two. None except arguably theory number four at all manages to explain objection number three. I've basically resigned myself to the fact that whatever Brandon comes up with, it's going to have some massive logical gaps in it or some pretty serious hand-waving cop-outs. It's annoying, and maybe one of Brandon's biggest flaws as a writer; but he did it in Mistborn, he did it in Elantris, he did it in Warbreaker, and I won't at all be surprised to see it happen here, too. (As an aside: that doesn't mean they're bad books. Brandon Sanderson is a far better writer than I am or will likely ever be. But he does have a tendency to over-promise and under-deliver when it comes to mysterious plot elements. And romances, but that's another story.) I'll be happy to be proven wrong -- I love that feeling of wonder when you've convinced yourself that something can't be done, only to finally see how it all works -- but I'm sure not holding my breath. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seloun Posted August 25, 2017 Report Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, galendo said: My honest opinion is that Brandon's sort of written himself into a corner here. I've considered nearly every reasonable possibility and found them all unsatisfactory. Some of the theories I've heard, and their refutations: ... 1) Why did all the KR abandon their oaths? This is the big one. Note that all the above theories except the last and arguably the first and fifth fail to adequately address it. In my experience, you can't get ten people to all agree on where to have dinner on a given night. Getting thousands of people to all kill their bosom companions and, incidentally, give up on their superpowers, not to mention the oaths they've spent a lifetime upholding, just doesn't seem at all plausible. 2) Why did the Recreance happen all at once? Even if most or somehow all the KR were convinced to abandon their oaths, as in situations 1), 5), and 7), any believable theory needs to explain why they all did so at the same time. What time crunch were they under? This can be explained if the Recreance were some sort of mass suicide-pact in which there was fear that some individuals might not go along with it (it also leaves room for either the Lightweavers or Truthwatchers to be the betraying Order), but other theories, in particular any relying on individual dissatisfaction of the KR as its motivation, tend to founder here. 3) Why did the Recreance happen the way it did? Why didn't the Windrunners and Stonewards hand over their Shards peacefully? Why not explain their motivations to the people they were abandoning? If there's something dishonest underlying the Radiants, I think this could have resulted in all (or most) of the Knights abandoning their oaths. One of the big things about the first Oath is that the ends can't justify the means: Quote “Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.” Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 831). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. If the KR were founded through what they would have viewed as dishonorable means, I could see all or most of the Knights disbanding, since it breaks the first Oath.I don't think it's also definitively established that every KR abandoned their Oaths for the same reasons; it certainly seems possible that a large chunk of the KR disbanding could have caused the organization overall to start falling apart. Alternatively, the Skybreakers deciding that they suddenly had to hunt down all KR while the greater part of the military arm of the KR disbanding could have led to the organization collapsing. As to the second point, we actually don't know that the Recreance happened all at once. Dalinar's vision shows two Orders (and possibly not the entirety of the Orders) disbanding. This is likely the first instance since there's no rumors about this possibility or anything at all that suggests anyone besides the KR knows what might be going on, but it's not really at all clear that this was being simultaneously repeated by every KR nor that this is the entire Order of Windrunners and Stonewards. For the third point: I think it's possible that the entire point was to make the spren essentially unrevivable. It's still unclear what happens if a KR dies/retires in good standing, so to speak, but it seems unlikely that it results in a dead spren in the same way the abandoned shards do (or there should be a -ton- of dead shards floating around from before the Recreance). The trickiest part is the lack of good documentation or explanation for their actions; it's possible that it was documented (later) and it just didn't survive (quite possible given the scarcity of information from that era in general) or that documentation would defeat the purpose (e.g. KR wanted to make sure there would be no future KR by obfuscating as much as possible; this potentially ties in with the Skybreaker/Nale's activities). Basically we really don't know that all the Radiants disbanded in the same manner or for the same immediate cause, nor the specifics of the timeline, beyond what Dalinar's vision shows us (it's also worth noting as an aside that Dalinar's visions can't literally be what happened, since he can affect what happens in the vision). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted August 25, 2017 Report Share Posted August 25, 2017 19 minutes ago, Seloun said: It's still unclear what happens if a KR dies/retires in good standing, so to speak, but it seems unlikely that it results in a dead spren in the same way the abandoned shards do (or there should be a -ton- of dead shards floating around from before the Recreance). No, it's perfectly clear. If the radiant dies, the Spren is emotionally traumatized, and their sentience degrades again, but they are free to bond again. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1088#44 Quote QUESTION After a spren has been bonded, what happens if the person it's bonded with dies? BRANDON SANDERSON It is an emotional event for the spren, but not a damaging one. As long as their oaths are unbroken. ARGENT Kind of like if a close friend dies? BRANDON SANDERSON Maybe a little more personal than that. QUESTION I guess Helaran was not bonded to a spren then? BRANDON SANDERSON Why do you say that QUESTION I saw that his Blade had a gemstone at the bottom, so that was a clue. BRANDON SANDERSON That is a very good clue. The only explanation that explains them killing all the Spren, is the need to make them unable to bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swieczq he/him Posted August 25, 2017 Report Share Posted August 25, 2017 Well, there's another explanation that came to my mind, feel free to prove me wrong Maybe when KR dies, the trauma which the spren undergoes, allows Odium to take control over it? On one hand, inbetween the desolations it is not a big problem, as the bond can be transferred. On the other hand, when the desolation is triggered, each killed KR would mean one spren more for the Enemy to use, and fate worse than locked-in-shardblade-death for the spren. To be honest, i don't feel like it would cause such an immediate action as the Recreance was on its own, but maybe the reason was a combination of multiple theories listed in this thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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