Seloun Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Sorry to be Spock, but I don't think something largely driven by emotion will cut it. Kaladin's Third Oath involves moving past his hate. I'd imagine some Oaths from other Orders will also involved moving past emotions(Dustbringers and the Brave Attribute, the Stoneward(probably) oath of "I will stand when others fall", etc..). As will be covered in the "complicity" point further down, they did not abandon all that progress in a spur of the moment emotional slip, so it has to still hold an impact once cooler heads can think about it. The "Day" of Recreance was more than likely pre-planned so it could be carried out in concert, and emotions fade and shift. The cause of the Recreance has to have a logical component to it, or else people would change their mind once they calmed down/the more logical types will calm the others down and reconcile issues less drastically. Maybe I'm overestimating the human capacity to cope, but they coped long enough to think about it, and decided to go forwards with it anyway. I agree that the Recreance likely was planned given what we know of it so far. I don't think that rules out it being an emotional decision; it's not difficult to find reasons to double down on a decision even if it was originally made hastily. The circumstances likely had some impact on their decision making as well (if e.g. they had no reason to believe Desolations would return); in the middle of an actual Desolation the impact of the revelation is quite likely to different. It doesn't have to have the same impact for it to still serve Taravangian if he needs to fight the Orders. I'm also not suggesting that the decision was purely emotional. Intentionally breaking people without their knowledge to cause more potential KR candidates is probably pretty shady under most of the KR interpretations of the Oaths; the emotional aspect could e.g. be why they made a big show of it. I just don't think that the Recreance was something that was logically inevitable, i.e. the Recreance was not a necessary conclusion from whatever revelation that triggered it, and could potentially have not happened if not for the emotional aspect. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: And they had to die for it? I'm no Skybreaker, but I believe punishing the many for the actions of the few is... frowned upon legally. Windrunners might just frown upon that in general. You're a fan of majority opinions. Where do you think the majority of the KR would fall here? I concede this part is messy, but I think that's pretty inevitable given how many differing perspectives are going to be involved. In particular, it seems unlikely every Nahel spren could have been involved.The way I resolve it is that much as the different spren factions are more or less likely to be involved in something like bondfarming (e.g. it seems pretty out of character for honorspren) the way the different spren would react to such a revelation is also probably different. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two Orders we see in Dalinar's vision are Windrunners and Stonewards, who (given their placement on the chart) are likely the most 'honorable' Orders with associated honorable spren. Specifically, they're the ones most likely to interpret their Oaths the way Teft describes it. In that case, if the Orders were created (or sustained) in a dishonorable manner, the Windrunners and Stonewards probably couldn't in good conscience continue in that manner. So the specific proximate reasons why the spren die vary (punishment/accountability, fruit of the poisoned tree, etc.) but the catalyst is the bondfarming revelation. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: The Stormfather and Windspren are not helping your case. They affect the world by creating/moving things, which Ruin and Preservation could do quite easily when not fighting each other. What they could not do, is affect what people did. Ruin could do very little in the way of manipulating situations when not acting through an Inquisitor, even when Preservation was not at liberty to limit his actions. Manipulating situations so that people would break and become suitable candidates for Spren Bonding is just not something the Spren could reliably do. And I'll respond to this bit now: Recall how Kaladin felt when Syl was talking to him the first time in the slave wagon? How he thought the others would think he was crazy? He's not alone in thinking that. And if the Spren started telling you what to do in life, would you listen to them? And if they ask you to kill or steal? The crazy people might go along with the more.. out there requests, but crazies usually have things they can't do/places they can't go(like polite society). Additionally, using more intermediaries to get something done increases the chance of failure. Murphy's law: What can go wrong, will go wrong. The more people involved, the more chances for something to go wrong. This gets even worse when you include hiring the unstable. I don't see this method working consistently enough to account for the numbers the Recreance Era KR had. I don't see this method as consistent enough to warrant more than a cursory test and giving up on it. I don't see it becoming mainstream. Affecting other people merely requires the spren to be able to communicate with people. Suppose e.g. a spren was able to communicate with Amaram and was able to tell him that it knew how to bring the Heralds back (with some proof that it knew what it was talking about). We could certainly argue that Amaram and Gavilar were crazy, but what they were trying to do is essentially what the spren might ask for for their farming: bring back/extend the Desolations (which almost certainly increases the number of potential KR). The spren don't have to be able to specifically command people in order to get what they want in the bondfarming theory; all they need are more broken people, which hardly requires a lot of micromanaging. They don't have to tell people 'hey, go break those people'; they just need to be able to tell them something like 'you deserve it more than they do' or 'they have something you want'. There's nothing that says they need to be able to target specific people, just that they get more candidates, and just causing strife between people is probably a really easy way to get that. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: "spontaneously generate"? Logically, those are the Spren contained in their Gemheart like Fabrials. The Greatshell dies and the bond is broken. The Spren then leaves. The WoB posted here just says the spren get something out of the bond, which isn't really evidence whether or not the bond is involved in spren reproduction. I believe that the bond is related to spren reproduction, but it's not necessary for that to be true for the rest of the theory to hold; it's just an example of something sufficiently important to the spren that might cause them to behave in an extreme fashion. We know at the very least the nahel spren gain sentience, and that they seem to have a preference for being bonded. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: The incident I mentioned is a case of him having sworn two oaths and not believing that his actions fulfilling one oath would not be in line with fulfilling the other oath. If he truly believed that killing Elhokar(his second oath) would be in line with overall protection(his first oath), then his vendetta would not have broken his bond. If Kaladin can truly see a way for his vendetta to avenge Tien's death to be in line with overall protection of humanity, then his bond wouldn't break at all. If he can't, then his bond goes sporadic the moment he moves forwards with seeking revenge. I don't know that the bond responds that immediately to intent. In particular, Kaladin's bond doesn't immediately disappear, and he's able to draw in Stormlight (with effort) before his bond is actually broken. What appears to actually break his bond also doesn't seem to be the problem with the Oath as it occurs during the chasm falling, not taking action against Elhokar (occurring when he apparently 'overdraws' from Syl, somehow). This also addresses the concern about the Radiants being able to Surgebind immediately before their abandoning their Shards during Dalinar's vision. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Per the Sleepless, Shallan was "broken by cruelty." Also, what's this about being "fully broken"? Never heard this phrase used before. I'm assuming being 'broken' is not a binary thing but some sort of continuum. I also vaguely remember something about unbroken people being able to form sort of a proto-bond (but not do anything really significant) but I don't know if I'm remembering correctly (or if it was merely a hypothesis). 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Sadeas and the Battle of the Tower. He handled that rather well, wouldn't you say? As important as Gavilar may have been to him, he is just one man. Dalinar lost several thousand soldiers, and nearly lost the rest along with his son and his own life because Sadeas betrayed him. I think the answer to your question is no. Dalinar doesn't assault Sadeas on sight with no regards to consequence, it's true, but neither does he forgive Sadeas and Dalinar works to bring Sadeas down. They're certainly straightforward opponents after this point. Dalinar's clearly 'broken his bond' with Sadeas, and is no longer willing to cooperate with Sadeas. I don't think it's really that different from a bonded spren in that regard - someone who you think is a close friend but you find out has betrayed you. I'm assuming that you're really referring to Dalinar not acting irrationally in pursuit of his vengeance, but that's not what is required for the question, which is whether or not it would be sufficient for Dalinar to abandon/kill his spren. If he thought his spren was acting irredeemably dishonorably, he'd certainly consider the possibility. Whether circumstances make that actually practical is another matter, but that doesn't negate the point, as the question is in regards to what he'd be willing to do. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: I do think it's that crazy. Even disregarding the special relationship they'll have from her growing up with Wyndle, consider the Edgedancer Oaths. Remembering the forgotten, listening to the ignored, etc.. I don't think people with a mindset like that would be the type to pull the vengeance card. I don't think there's really enough evidence either way on this, given we don't know much about Lift's history. However, I'd argue that many people, if they found out someone they considered their friend was involved in causing the death of their mother, and benefited from said death, would react pretty strongly. Also, the Oaths don't really say much about 'friends who betrayed you'. I don't think that really qualifies as someone 'forgotten' or 'ignored'. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: I require further explanation. Quite a bit more actually, as I've no clue what you are trying to do here. The WoBs I linked don't really mesh with what you're trying to say. (Again - this is in reference to keeping the Desolation continuing longer) I assume you linked the WoB to note what actually causes the Desolations and what causes them to end (The Heralds returning to Roshar, and the Heralds having to go back). The spren apparently know this, so this part of the theory is that the spren could have made an offer/suggestion/tempting offhand remark to the Heralds about reasons why they should stick around a bit longer this time. Season to taste with the degree of complicity/altruism involved ('stay a bit longer to train up the Radiants a bit more so people don't lose as much...'). About the only thing I'm asserting with the bondfarming theory is that the spren took action to cause more broken individuals; there are a lot of ways of potentially going about this, with anything that extends or causes a new Desolation being one of them. 5 hours ago, The One Who Connects said: Your hypothetical generic reasons are valid. However, I do not think your current theory about "bondfarming" fits the bill for either scenario. It's in no way worse than the Desolation, and i don't particularly see how it would make the Desolation worse. So again, one of the ways to cause more KR candidates is by having more or longer Desolations. If this was one of the ways that the spren implemented bondfarming, it's actually as bad as the Desolations, or worse. I presume the comment about making the Desolation worse is in reference to how it applies to modern KR, given their circumstances, since Taravangian is apparently holding the reason for the Recreance as a backup card. I don't think it has to have the exact same impact with the modern KR as it did during the Recreance for it to still be a useful tool for Taravangian; if it 'only' removes a couple of Orders from play (because they can't accept using their abilities if it's ultimately derived from a dishonorable source) it's still plenty useful for him. If it 'merely' causes dissension within the KR, it's still quite valuable for him.
Seloun Posted October 1, 2017 Posted October 1, 2017 5 hours ago, Calderis said: It's pretty simple really. The Spren are tied to their Radiants quite literally. Syl speaks of this when she recovers the Blackbane before Kal's near suicide at the honor chasm. Leaving means she could lose herself. Yes, the Spren have some ability to be out of earshot of their Radiants, but when your speaking of collusion on an act that will kill virtually all of the Spren to hundreds if not thousands of Radiants? It's absolutely not possible for it to have been secret. They knew, and they agreed. The alternative is the bond breaking prior to the coordinated event, or at the least, the surges failing those en route. I agree the spren knew about the plans for the Recreance; that's highly unlikely to have been kept a secret (though one imagines them telling them 'no, we're NOT going vet - we're going to the park!'). As mentioned in my other response though I don't think the bond is that immediately reactive to intent (compared to action - the one instance where the bond seems to fail Kaladin immediately and traceable to an Oath thing is when he tries to fight Adolin); Kaladin's able to draw in Stormlight and use it at least in a basic form after he's made his 'bad decision', even if with effort. Syl doesn't actually 'die' and Kaladin doesn't fully lose his ability until he falls into the chasm, and even that doesn't seem to be as a direct consequence to a broken oath (instead, it's because he seems to 'overdraw' from Syl; this might be the breaking of the oath but it's a lot more of a tenuous connection than his decision about Elhokar). It's also worth noting that we only know about how the Recreance apparently happened for (some portion of) two Orders (likely the most honorable of the Orders, too) assuming we take the vision as being accurate (currently no reason not to). Among other things it may mean that those particular spren were ones that agreed to the necessity while others did not. 5 hours ago, Calderis said: And on the note of keeping secrets, it has to be something that the Spren could never speak of. They, at least those tied to Honor are nearly incapable of lying. So the idea of some secret deal between the Spren and the Heralds is off the table as well. Not every spren has to be directly involved; the WoB actually suggests there's a wide variety of even Honorspren in terms of morality, so a 'high council' set up certainly seems possible. 5 hours ago, Calderis said: And to the idea of it being a highly emotional thing... Very very unlikely for the reasons that The One Who Connects already said. Take into account the Elsecallers. The focus of inkspren is on placing logical thought above emotion. So no. I disagree completely. I'd argue that Jasnah's dealing with/decision to deal with the footpads in Kharbranth was at least tinged with emotion, and likely the reason why she chose that means of 'practical philosophy' originated from emotion. Being more deliberate doesn't mean emotions don't factor in your decision making or that they can't trigger looking for justifications.
IllNsickly he/him Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 Imagine for a moment that you are a Herald. Honor has given you a Sword that gives you Deific abilities and tells you that YOU are the barricade between 'Humanity' and Eterninty. (Humaity used as a correlate) Think for another moment about the 'Ninety and Nine' battles that you have fought while bound to the Oathpact. When you find out that only ONE of you died in a Desolation and you abandon your Honorblade and subsequently the Oathpact; Would you keep silent about the things that you know? The things that you have endured between Desolations? The fires, the torture, the flaying, the HORROR? The Recreance can be laid directly at the feet of every Herald besides Taln. He was the dead one and therefore blameless.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, IllNsickly said: The Recreance can be laid directly at the feet of every Herald besides Taln. He was the dead one and therefore blameless. Except it can't. Brandon has directly said that's not what happened. Quote Brandon Sanderson The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: The WoB posted here just says the spren get something out of the bond, which isn't really evidence whether or not the bond is involved in spren reproduction. Of course the WoB I provided is not relevant to Spren reproduction. Why would it be? The portion of your comment I was responding to had nothing to do with Spren reproduction. Quoth You: Quote 3) The Stormfather creates highstorms. The Nightwatcher grants wishes. Simple windspren (or potentially non-sentient Honorspren) are capable of bonding items together. The capability of spren (at least some spren) to affect the world doesn't really seem to be in question. Not to mention spren can apparently bond with Rosharan life and influence them that way. Spren are definitely involved in the lifecycle of Rosharan life, and we see spren apparently spontaneously generate from e.g. corpses of gemhearts after their deaths. The portion of my comment that you made the above snippet in response to was about the capacity of the Spren to affect the world. I don't see where(or why) Spren Reproduction enters the conversation. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: I don't know that the bond responds that immediately to intent. In particular, Kaladin's bond doesn't immediately disappear, and he's able to draw in Stormlight (with effort) before his bond is actually broken. What appears to actually break his bond also doesn't seem to be the problem with the Oath as it occurs during the chasm falling, not taking action against Elhokar (occurring when he apparently 'overdraws' from Syl, somehow). This also addresses the concern about the Radiants being able to Surgebind immediately before their abandoning their Shards during Dalinar's vision. This fits completely with my "goes sporadic the moment he moves forward" comment. The bond becoming sporadic fits with him having difficulties with it. Eventually, those difficulties will get worse and reach a breaking point. Whatever he was currently doing at the time isn't supremely relevant. Although, perhaps trying to pull in Stormlight through a strained bond like that is what makes it get worse by straining it even further, which would mean it "breaking" when he tried to draw in Stormlight is relevant in a different way. That could put a damper in the plans of our Surgebinders right before the Recreance. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: I'm assuming being 'broken' is not a binary thing but some sort of continuum. I also vaguely remember something about unbroken people being able to form sort of a proto-bond (but not do anything really significant) but I don't know if I'm remembering correctly (or if it was merely a hypothesis). Given how "Snapping" is a thing, I see it as a bit more of a binary thing. As for this vague recollection, try and find it. I've never seen it before, and it would help settle this portion of the debate(and probably a few other debates throughout the forums). On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: I just don't think that the Recreance was something that was logically inevitable, i.e. the Recreance was not a necessary conclusion from whatever revelation that triggered it, and could potentially have not happened if not for the emotional aspect. I find it somewhat amusing how circular our disagreement on this point has become. You feel that the logical component is not enough to cause the Recreance, so it needs an emotional impact to push them over the edge. I feel that the emotional impact is not enough to cause the Recreance, so it needs a logical component to push them over the edge. We both appear to be pushing a 60/40 interpretation slanted our respective way. Weak logic alone will sputter out due to shortage of decisive evidence. Emotion alone will sputter out over time as cooler heads prevail. We seem to agree that neither bit(logic/emotion) is enough on its own. I'm proposing a 40/20/40 split. It's 40% logical & 40% emotional(not enough for either side to take action), and 20% intertwined(pushing both camps over the edge). Something in the revelation that plays to both sides equally, so that the logical thinkers can't just deny the emotional ones as brash or hotheaded, and the emotional ones actually have discussion points to win over logical thinkers. I have absolutely no idea what this revelation could be, but this seems like the best option. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: The spren don't have to be able to specifically command people in order to get what they want in the bondfarming theory; all they need are more broken people, which hardly requires a lot of micromanaging. They don't have to tell people 'hey, go break those people'; they just need to be able to tell them something like 'you deserve it more than they do' or 'they have something you want'. There's nothing that says they need to be able to target specific people, just that they get more candidates, and just causing strife between people is probably a really easy way to get that. I suppose I just have a higher opinion of how much the "insanity" stigma will limit people's actions, especially nowadays since Spren Bonds are even less common knowledge than they were in the past era. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: Suppose e.g. a spren was able to communicate with Amaram and was able to tell him that it knew how to bring the Heralds back (with some proof that it knew what it was talking about). We could certainly argue that Amaram and Gavilar were crazy, but what they were trying to do is essentially what the spren might ask for for their farming: bring back/extend the Desolations (which almost certainly increases the number of potential KR). Ah.. now I now why that never sat right with me. Extending the Desolation is against the basic instinct of self-preservation, and a Spren society smart enough to know how to expand their numbers should understand that. Longer Desolations --> More People Die --> Less Cognitive Thought --> Less Spren More Desolations --> Less Time for Humanity to Repopulate/Rebuild --> Desolation becomes Less of a Fight, More of a Slaughter --> Even Less Cognitive Thought --> Even Less Spren Shorter Desolation --> Fewer Casualties --> Smaller Loss of Cognitive Thought --> Smaller Loss of Spren Less Desolations --> More Time for Humanity to Rebuild --> Shorter Desolation .exe Less Desolations --> More Time for Humanity to Repopulate --> More Population, More Cognitive Thought --> More Spren Spren(like the Cognitive Realm itself) are a product of cognitive perception. Desolations kill off large portions of humanity, and Parshendi, and Aimians, and probably Greatshells. Pronounced losses of thinking beings is a pronounced loss of cognitive perception, which is a pronounced loss in the Cognitive Realm. Consider Nohadon's Desolation: 11 years of fighting. 9/10th of humanity dead in many places. The World torn asunder. Just imagine for a second how that affected the Cognitive Realm. I don't know about you, but I imagine that did quite a number on it, and if I were a Spren, I wouldn't be putting in place a plan that will(not might, will) replicate a situation like that. The potential gain in Nahel Spren is not worth the loss of Spren in general, coupled with an increased risk of Odium winning, which would decimate life in the PR, with the Cognitive crumbling down with it. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: I presume the comment about making the Desolation worse is in reference to how it applies to modern KR, given their circumstances No, that was me not understanding what you meant by "making it worse" at the time. I understand now, and have addressed it above. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: I don't think it's really that different from a bonded spren in that regard - someone who you think is a close friend but you find out has betrayed you. I hold a "potential betrayal" years ago as far less of a big deal than an actual betrayal in the here and now. I just don't see Dalinar doing it, and once again, I'm disagreeing with you due to levels of intensity: Dalinar was hit with a very heavy 1-2-3 combo in quick succession. He learned that his god is real. He then learned that his god is dead. He's told that he has to fight the deity that killed god, and he keeps on his path. In my opinion, it'd take a lot to rattle his personal convictions more than that. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: 1) I don't think there's really enough evidence either way on this, given we don't know much about Lift's history. 2) Also, the Oaths don't really say much about 'friends who betrayed you'. I don't think that really qualifies as someone 'forgotten' or 'ignored'. 1) I'd agree with you. Not enough information yet. 2) I never said it would qualify, merely that those who dedicate themselves to remembrance and listening to others don't seem the type to throw around the "vengeance card." Someone like Kaladin, who's all about protecting others? He's a reasonable fit for avenging the people he couldn't protect, in an attempt to protect others down the line. Lift though? I just don't see her character going on a vengeance tear. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: 1) I assume you linked the WoB to note what actually causes the Desolations and what causes them to end (The Heralds returning to Roshar, and the Heralds having to go back). 2) The spren apparently know this, so this part of the theory is that the spren could have made an offer/suggestion/tempting offhand remark to the Heralds about reasons why they should stick around a bit longer this time. Season to taste with the degree of complicity/altruism involved ('stay a bit longer to train up the Radiants a bit more so people don't lose as much...'). 3) About the only thing I'm asserting with the bondfarming theory is that the spren took action to cause more broken individuals; there are a lot of ways of potentially going about this, with anything that extends or causes a new Desolation being one of them. 1) I did. Glad to see me saying "The Heralds" was a clear enough statement. 2) And now we're back to the "How and Why" game. (as per usual) - How do you propose the Spren learned this information? Ishar made an assumption when they left Taln behind. If he's uncertain about the accuracy of his hypothesis, I don't see the Spren somehow knowing related information as fact or even as hearsay. - Why would the Heralds have agreed to this? As mentioned above, more/longer Desolations is against humanity's best interests, making it against the Herald's best interests as protectors of humanity. 3) Nahel Spren trying to inflate their numbers is a.. decent starting point for a theory, but you'll have to flesh out some of those other ways to go about it, as the Desolation path doesn't appear to be a lucrative idea in the long run. Short-Term maybe, but I don't imagine forces of nature focus on the short-term. On 10/1/2017 at 2:53 AM, Seloun said: Orders with associated honorable spren. Specifically, they're the ones most likely to interpret their Oaths the way Teft describes it. In that case, if the Orders were created (or sustained) in a dishonorable manner, the Windrunners and Stonewards probably couldn't in good conscience continue in that manner. And now we get into what might become a philosophical debate. (Surprised it took this long, all things considered) The Orders were created by Spren trying to imitate the Heralds, which, to me, would not have been "making the Orders in a dishonorable manner." I don't think the Spren would have even known about/understood the "must be broken" criteria when they first started bonding either. As such, I'll discuss the potential impact of the Orders being sustained by your theory. That's gonna split more on a person to person level than you think. Have a few potential reasons for why our honorable fellows may keep going in spite of this. If the Spren that the KR was bonded to was not one that was "in the know." If a valid reason was provided for why bondfarming is a good idea. The theoretical "greater good" argument and one's responsibility to it. The actual "greater good" and the lack thereof in the world at large. Personal interpretation of the situation and whether or not it's dishonorable. If the Spren explained the "must be broken" criteria. This is gonna need to be a bigger deal than just "we tried to make you into a KR candidate by royally screwing with your life." It's got to have something that makes the potential validations for it seem weaker in comparison, something that makes it more concisely dishonorable, and for the life of me, I can't imagine what that could be. Edited October 2, 2017 by The One Who Connects 1
IllNsickly he/him Posted October 2, 2017 Posted October 2, 2017 @The One Who Connects Cheers. I'm not up to scratch on WoB,
Dahak he/him Posted October 5, 2017 Posted October 5, 2017 On 30/08/2017 at 6:12 AM, Calderis said: I'll agree to disagree. There's a big difference in my mind between the Cognitive representation of a physical object like the beads, and a spren. The only spren we've seen capable of interacting with the physical realm without a bond are the Stormfather and, by way of the Old Magic, the Nightwatcher. I've seen no evidence that Nahel Spren are capable of what you suggest. Windspren. Kaladin first thinks Syl is a wind spren among other reasons because she plays practical jokes like they do. And Cryptics can lurk in your mirror where you can see them watching you. Not that it is necessary for a Bondfarming scenario since it could be bonded spren sneaking off and messing peoples lives up to break them so that other spren can bond them, or so they've got an alternative choice to switch to if they get to frustrated with thier current bond holder (Syl said she could choose to dissolve the bond). Unlike the Radiants, Spren don't need to sleep. I suspect the anwser is likely a] wierder and b] will be obvious in retrospect.
Seloun Posted October 6, 2017 Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/2/2017 at 1:26 PM, The One Who Connects said: Of course the WoB I provided is not relevant to Spren reproduction. Why would it be? Hmm, apparently I got mixed up on the topic in discussion here. In regards to the point about spren being able to influence, the world and the bonding with Rosharian life, my point was that one of the ways spren could affect the world was through affecting creatures they were bonded with (Parshendi, among others). I don't think the WoB is relevant from that perspective, either. On 10/2/2017 at 1:26 PM, The One Who Connects said: I find it somewhat amusing how circular our disagreement on this point has become. You feel that the logical component is not enough to cause the Recreance, so it needs an emotional impact to push them over the edge. I feel that the emotional impact is not enough to cause the Recreance, so it needs a logical component to push them over the edge. We both appear to be pushing a 60/40 interpretation slanted our respective way. Weak logic alone will sputter out due to shortage of decisive evidence. Emotion alone will sputter out over time as cooler heads prevail. We seem to agree that neither bit(logic/emotion) is enough on its own. I'm proposing a 40/20/40 split. It's 40% logical & 40% emotional(not enough for either side to take action), and 20% intertwined(pushing both camps over the edge). Something in the revelation that plays to both sides equally, so that the logical thinkers can't just deny the emotional ones as brash or hotheaded, and the emotional ones actually have discussion points to win over logical thinkers. I have absolutely no idea what this revelation could be, but this seems like the best option. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I think I'm starting from a somewhat different spot. Specifically, I agree that whatever caused the Recreance is probably one big thing rather than lots of little things (given how weaponizeable Taravangian seems to think it is) and that it impacted all of the KR (even if not all exactly the same way or at the same intensity). So the main question from there is what attribute KR all share - the First Ideal seems like a good spot to start, but I agree with the conclusion that the Orders all interpret it in potentially fairly significantly different ways. The one thing we know the KR do share (in a mechanical way, given how the world works in the books) is that they're 'broken'/snapped. So that seems like a reasonable point of vulnerability. Up to this point I don't think I'm particularly invoking whether the reason must have been emotional or logical in impact. The main reason why I think there must have been a significant emotional component has to do with Dalinar's interpretation of his vision of the Recreance. Given that the vision only covers Windrunners and Stonewards, it's possible that the emotional component might have been specific to those Orders (this is what I was getting at earlier w.r.t. potentially different reactions to the same original cause). 'Bondfarming' is just where I end up given my other theory that the bonds are involved in spren reproduction. The main elements though are that (a) the fact the KR are all 'broken' is probably important to the reason for the Recreance and (b) Windrunners and Stonewards seemed upset at their spren. On 10/2/2017 at 1:26 PM, The One Who Connects said: Ah.. now I now why that never sat right with me. Extending the Desolation is against the basic instinct of self-preservation, and a Spren society smart enough to know how to expand their numbers should understand that. Longer Desolations --> More People Die --> Less Cognitive Thought --> Less Spren More Desolations --> Less Time for Humanity to Repopulate/Rebuild --> Desolation becomes Less of a Fight, More of a Slaughter --> Even Less Cognitive Thought --> Even Less Spren Shorter Desolation --> Fewer Casualties --> Smaller Loss of Cognitive Thought --> Smaller Loss of Spren Less Desolations --> More Time for Humanity to Rebuild --> Shorter Desolation .exe Less Desolations --> More Time for Humanity to Repopulate --> More Population, More Cognitive Thought --> More Spren Spren(like the Cognitive Realm itself) are a product of cognitive perception. Desolations kill off large portions of humanity, and Parshendi, and Aimians, and probably Greatshells. Pronounced losses of thinking beings is a pronounced loss of cognitive perception, which is a pronounced loss in the Cognitive Realm. Consider Nohadon's Desolation: 11 years of fighting. 9/10th of humanity dead in many places. The World torn asunder. Just imagine for a second how that affected the Cognitive Realm. I don't know about you, but I imagine that did quite a number on it, and if I were a Spren, I wouldn't be putting in place a plan that will(not might, will) replicate a situation like that. The potential gain in Nahel Spren is not worth the loss of Spren in general, coupled with an increased risk of Odium winning, which would decimate life in the PR, with the Cognitive crumbling down with it. I don't think the spren are any less prone to making poor decisions than humanity (Sons of Honor...). There's presumably a 'sweet spot' of bad things that can happen to humanity to optimize the number of bonds. Also, longer Desolations is merely one of the potential options to cause more potential bond candidates; it was a ready example of a way spren could potentially affect the Roshar in a way that was detrimental to humans. And it doesn't require every spren to decide the risk is worth it; a secret society of spren is kind of what I had in mind (everyone else seems to be in one at this point, anyway). But sticking with Desolations, in the short run Desolations quite likely increased the number of KR (and just having cognitive thought doesn't seem sufficient for whatever the Nahel spren 'want', individuals capable of the bond seem required). Based on Pattern's comments I don't think just having humanity around is necessarily associated with the number of/quality of life of the Nahel spren. As an aside, iIt's actually interesting to consider that Desolation -> more KR creates potentially negative feedback, perhaps providing a partial explanation of how humanity survived the many Desolations. On 10/2/2017 at 1:26 PM, The One Who Connects said: 2) And now we're back to the "How and Why" game. (as per usual) - How do you propose the Spren learned this information? Ishar made an assumption when they left Taln behind. If he's uncertain about the accuracy of his hypothesis, I don't see the Spren somehow knowing related information as fact or even as hearsay. - Why would the Heralds have agreed to this? As mentioned above, more/longer Desolations is against humanity's best interests, making it against the Herald's best interests as protectors of humanity. IIRC what Ishar was uncertain was about was whether Taln going back alone would be sufficient (to trap Odium, presumably). If he didn't know, in general, how the system was supposed to work he wouldn't have have been uncertain whether it would keep working with just one person. As to why... well, we know why: the Heralds stay on Roshar for their own benefit at the prologue to the series. It doesn't seem too far fetched to consider that some of the Heralds may have broken in an earlier cycle than the others, or were 'merely' justifying a longer 'vacation'. Really the whole idea about some of the Heralds being in on it came from looking at the prologue. On 10/2/2017 at 1:26 PM, The One Who Connects said: 3) Nahel Spren trying to inflate their numbers is a.. decent starting point for a theory, but you'll have to flesh out some of those other ways to go about it, as the Desolation path doesn't appear to be a lucrative idea in the long run. Short-Term maybe, but I don't imagine forces of nature focus on the short-term. I think it's almost exactly the opposite. I don't think forces of nature would in general be particularly about planning in the long term; they behave mostly according to their natures rather than being particularly deliberate (except a few of the spren whose nature is to be deliberate, presumably). Ultimately the other ways are going to involve people fighting people, i.e. instigating wars. I don't think we have enough history to go into specific cases, but we can consider e.g. Alakavish, the Surgebinder that caused devastation before Nohadon's Desolation. Pre-KR it probably would have been quite trivial to (unintentionally or otherwise) traumatize people into being bond-capable by letting Surgebinders indulge their natures. On 10/2/2017 at 1:26 PM, The One Who Connects said: And now we get into what might become a philosophical debate. (Surprised it took this long, all things considered) The Orders were created by Spren trying to imitate the Heralds, which, to me, would not have been "making the Orders in a dishonorable manner." I don't think the Spren would have even known about/understood the "must be broken" criteria when they first started bonding either. As such, I'll discuss the potential impact of the Orders being sustained by your theory. That's gonna split more on a person to person level than you think. Have a few potential reasons for why our honorable fellows may keep going in spite of this. If the Spren that the KR was bonded to was not one that was "in the know." If a valid reason was provided for why bondfarming is a good idea. The theoretical "greater good" argument and one's responsibility to it. The actual "greater good" and the lack thereof in the world at large. Personal interpretation of the situation and whether or not it's dishonorable. If the Spren explained the "must be broken" criteria. This is gonna need to be a bigger deal than just "we tried to make you into a KR candidate by royally screwing with your life." It's got to have something that makes the potential validations for it seem weaker in comparison, something that makes it more concisely dishonorable, and for the life of me, I can't imagine what that could be. I concede that this is the weakest part (universality), though as noted it's probably the weakest part of any theory of the Recreance. The best I can come up with is the explanation above about there being a single root cause/reason, but the proximate cause for a given Order/group of like-minded KR falling apart may be different. I think that Dalinar only seeing Windrunners and Stonewards in his vision is important - while there could have been a more prosaic reason for this (they're the only ones close by) I think that it could indicate the Orders didn't necessarily break apart in the same fashion or for the same immediate excuse. The other aspect is that even if not all of the Orders broke up directly as a result of the cause of the Recreance, it may have e.g. convinced the Skybreakers that the KR should be disbanded, by force if necessary. Again, we only have seen two Orders (probably among the more martial Orders) apparently willingly disband. If some coalition of Orders decided that KR as a whole shouldn't exist, that may have been sufficient. Ultimately though I think the requirement the KR be broken may by its nature mean that each KR has some trauma that they won't be able to deal with rationally (at least, not without a lot of work). The evidence for this in the books as of now is admittedly somewhat limited, though that's at least in part because we've only proverbially visited two KR candidates (and the nature of their being protagonists, they are likely exceptional in some ways), and of the two Shallan still seems pretty fragile. I have to imagine, from a meta perspective anyway, that this point wouldn't be brought up repeatedly in the text/blurbs if it wasn't a significant plot point.
Humpty he/him Posted October 8, 2017 Posted October 8, 2017 I think I might literally go mad!! if this question isn't answered in Oathbringer... lol I just imagined an awesome scene at bookstore signing after Oathbringer comes out and the question isn't answered yet. Brandon saying RAFO , and then me putting him in a choke hold like Homer Simpson does Bart.. j/k
The One Who Connects he/him Posted October 9, 2017 Posted October 9, 2017 On 10/5/2017 at 9:15 PM, Seloun said: (and just having cognitive thought doesn't seem sufficient for whatever the Nahel spren 'want', individuals capable of the bond seem required). Based on Pattern's comments I don't think just having humanity around is necessarily associated with the number of/quality of life of the Nahel spren. I brought it up as a loss of cognitive thought screws up the cognitive realm itself. I don't think Spren in general(Nahel or normal) could exist on Roshar if there was no thinking life on Roshar. That was my point there. You are right that having more humans around does not necessarily make life better for Nahel Spren, but having much less humans around could make life worse for Spren in general. On 10/5/2017 at 9:15 PM, Seloun said: I don't think the spren are any less prone to making poor decisions than humanity (Sons of Honor...). There's presumably a 'sweet spot' of bad things that can happen to humanity to optimize the number of bonds. Also, longer Desolations is merely one of the potential options to cause more potential bond candidates Oh certainly. It's just that the Sons of Honor have a more.. skewed view of things than I would imagine the Spren do. Thus I felt the the poor decisions Spren make would be on a lesser scale than the SoH. I'm sure there's a sweet spot to maximize it, but that's a boatload of variables to keep track of. I have my doubts about even a Shard influencing events of that scale with that level of precision. Doesn't mean nobody tried, but they'd have limited success. On 10/5/2017 at 9:15 PM, Seloun said: IIRC what Ishar was uncertain was about was whether Taln going back alone would be sufficient (to trap Odium, presumably). If he didn't know, in general, how the system was supposed to work he wouldn't have have been uncertain whether it would keep working with just one person. You are correct about the origin of his uncertainty, but I still don't think this information would've reached the ears of the Spren. The Heralds don't have the same relationship with the Spren that the KR do, and (for some reason) I feel that the Oathpact was not really known about beyond the Heralds. On 10/5/2017 at 9:15 PM, Seloun said: I don't think forces of nature would in general be particularly about planning in the long term; they behave mostly according to their natures rather than being particularly deliberate (except a few of the Spren whose nature is to be deliberate, presumably). I mixed up my thoughts with the fact that they're kinda-immortal, and immortals should be thinking long(er) term. You can disregard that point. On 10/5/2017 at 9:15 PM, Seloun said: The main reason why I think there must have been a significant emotional component has to do with Dalinar's interpretation of his vision of the Recreance. Given that the vision only covers Windrunners and Stonewards, it's possible that the emotional component might have been specific to those Orders (this is what I was getting at earlier w.r.t. potentially different reactions to the same original cause). (b) Windrunners and Stonewards seemed upset at their spren. Guess I considered the sense of emotion in the wake of the bond-breaking as the pain of the dead/dying Spren rather than anything specific. What gave you the sense that they were upset at their Spren in the vision? I vaguely remember a pained expression on one of their faces, but I believe I remember Dalinar pointing out that it was a determined expression too. If there was both determination and pain, I felt the expression was with regards to the KR understanding what they were about to do to their Spren. On 10/5/2017 at 9:15 PM, Seloun said: Ultimately though I think the requirement the KR be broken may by its nature mean that each KR has some trauma that they won't be able to deal with rationally (at least, not without a lot of work). Odds are I'm underestimating how hard it is to get over things because I've fared pretty well at moving on from the past, but I feel like after a decade or so, a lot of the KR would reach a point where they've mostly moved past whatever broke them. Beatings were enough to snap people on Scadrial, so we know that not everyone's trauma will have to be someone's death.
Urithiru Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 So on rereading WoR I noticed one thing that may be helpful here, and if it’s common knowledge, I apologize. Eshonai repeatedly describes the history of her people as stemming from an even that happened “centuries” ago, when the listeners fled their gods by assuming Dullform. Not “millennia” but centuries. The last desolation was a lot longer ago than I think “centuries” implies. What we know did happen “centuries” but not millennia ago was the Recreance. This is hardly proof of anything, but it is suggestive. Perhaps also as important, we learn in WoR that the listeners, the implied natives of Roshar, believe that the Spren betrayed them by bonding with the human invaders, maybe because the spren can get something from the humans they can’t from listeners. But it in the real long sweep of Rosharian history, I’d say one of, if not the central, moral struggles has been one of invasion, conquest, slavery, and the mind/soul-murder of the indigenous inhabitants of Roshar. Humans have not been the only ones to blame here, as both they and the “gods” (of Odium?) have attempted to use and enslave the listeners, who fought back against odium’s enslavement/conscription “centuries” ago and are now in the midst of a massive slave revolt against their human enslavers. If the KR were founded primarily to kill enslaved-but-super listeners (who they call voidbringers), and those listeners freed themselves (or maybe had help somewhow during or in events surrounding the Recreance), maybe there is a link. Maybe both KR and the listeners had reason to believe they had become pawns, that both had been betrayed by the spren and that both “species” severed their magical bonds with their spren, at great cost to themselves, around the same time. The listeners’ songs indicate that they gave up power for both freedom and to prevent the return of their gods. Maybe the KR gave up their powers for similar reasons. Of course none of this explains what exactly precipitated this clearly coordinated event, nor why the KR gave away their Shards without explanation. 1
The One Who Connects he/him Posted November 4, 2017 Posted November 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Urithiru said: What we know did happen “centuries” but not millennia ago was the Recreance. Where do you draw the line on "centuries" not being a good indicator word? Is 2,200 years too much? Spoiler On 9/15/2016 at 10:43 AM, The One Who Connects said: Best we've got are these WoB's: Here and here Quote zas678 How long ago was the Recreance from modern day or from the Heirocracy? Brandon Sanderson The Heirocracy is in recent history, the Recreance is in ancient history. Quote Argent In terms of timeline-- So The Way of Kings and the Stormlight Archive takes place 1173-4 right now, how far ago, approximately, was the Recreance? Brandon Sanderson So you-- Let’s see-- So the Heralds leave at 4500 and we’re at 11-- Argent So we are at 5500 years after-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah. So Recreance is more recent than late. Argent So… In the thousands-- But it’s not like three hundred years ago. Brandon Sanderson It’s not like three hundred years ago, but it’s also not like 4000 years ago. Argent Okay, so from the middle-- Brandon Sanderson The Hierocracy happened after (the Recreance) and the Hierocracy was a couple hundred years ago. It’s longer than that even, it’s like five or six hundred years ago I think. Recreance is minimum 700+ years ago, considered "ancient history" by Brandon, but also "more recent than late." Personally, that makes it sound like ... 2,000-2,500ish? Opinions, comments, concerns? Spoilered for size
Soby Posted November 28, 2018 Posted November 28, 2018 Been a while since anyone posted to this topic. I have a theory: The possessors of shards are shaped by those shards. If Odium is able to tarnish the spren, maybe the Radiants realized that they had to separate from them in order to avoid being influenced by Odium?
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