Cognitive Realm Destruction

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

What would happen if you traveled to the Cognitive realm and threw a stick of dynamite into the sea of beads? Would this affect the Physical Realm? If so, would it be a visible affect?

Are Physical objects even able to damage the cognitive beads? What if you tried to put out the flames that represent people's minds?

I am of the opinion that if this did damage the beads, they would regenerate since the object still has a Physical and Spiritual presence. I'm not sure if there would be a visible affect in the Physical Realm or what it would be if there was. Has there been any mention of these situations?

Edited August 8, 2017 by Faceless Mist-Wraith

[Calderis]

I've seen nothing addressing this particularly, but in my opinion, it's going to vary based on the type of objects. 

In the case of beads, which represent inanimate objects, I think your correct in that they would just, over time, regenerate. 

For the flames? The flames represent the Cognitive aspect of a living being. You would literally be destroying their mind. So while the physical aspect may not show any sign of damage, I think it would have a significant effect on a living creature. 

I'm positive that a physical object brought to Shadesmar would be able to effect things as well because of this WoB frome Boskone. 

Quote

113:15] (Bromo_Sapien’s questions) What happens to physical body when you travel to Shadesmar.  

Q: When somebody travels into the cognitive realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

A: Um, well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where you’re body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Q: So their physical self would also be in the cognitive realm?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Which is weird.

Q: Yeah.

A: But yes, um...

Q: As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

A: Yes, right. Or when Shallan is soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. Like… Um… It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Q: And when they leave the cognitive realm their physical self just leaves the cognitive realm the same...

A: Yep, mhm, yep.

Q: Perfect.

A: Basically you’re transferring into investiture and popping out of investiture, so...

Once you fully enter the Cognitive Realm, you become investiture. I'd have to imagine that anything brought with you would do the same. 

[+Extesian]

I've wondered this before, it's a good question. I'd be very surprised if you can destroy someone's cognitive aspect by beating the rust out of the flame that represents it. I know it's Scadrial, but Kel wasn't able to directly affect things through the cognitive realm unless the person was mad or broken. More than that, it wouldn't make plot sense. Anyone who can get into the cognitive realm could just destroy people without resistance, switch 'em off, like they're in the Matrix.

Whether a shardblade/honorblade/nightblood can is an interesting question, but even then it just seems too overpowered. 

[Nathrangking]

I am tempted to say that you cannot truly  destroy an idea in shadesmar it would not be able to impact the state of things in the physical world. If it were so easy to simply destroy things then...

Spoiler

All Shallan would have had to do was crush the bead and sink the ship in the beginning of WoR.

I think that as was theorized that the "bead" would heal itself. Only the investiture of power into the object can change it because breaking a bead will not impact the way an object views itself which...

Spoiler

as has been established in ES and WoR is very important.

 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I am tempted to say that you cannot truly  destroy an idea in shadesmar it would not be able to impact the state of things in the physical world. If it were so easy to simply destroy things then...

  Hide contents

All Shallan would have had to do was crush the bead and sink the ship in the beginning of WoR.

I think that as was theorized that the "bead" would heal itself. Only the investiture of power into the object can change it because breaking a bead will not impact the way an object views itself which...

  Hide contents

as has been established in ES and WoR is very important.

 

I don't think there's any contention on that point. Only the flames that represent living beings. 

I don't think we've actually seen anyone try to do anything other than communicating with them. 

[Nathrangking]

It would be too easy as a plot point if you could just extinguish a person from the other side and I think that the principle of viewership would apply here as well. That and the fire is almost certainly energy in composition so its destruction would be virtually impossible @Extesian's point about nightblood ... considered it would still be difficult to imagine.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

30 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

It would be too easy as a plot point if you could just extinguish a person from the other side and I think that the principle of viewership would apply here as well. That and the fire is almost certainly energy in composition so its destruction would be virtually impossible @Extesian's point about nightblood ... considered it would still be difficult to imagine.

My thoughts were that since 2/3 of the person would still exist, that the missing third would eventually rebuild itself. So if it did affect the person in the physical realm, I thought the most it might be would be a temporary catatonic state.

To use the stick as an example, it is constantly saying "I am a stick", but if you were to break its bead (or put out a person's mind flame) it would temporarily stop. However, since it still physically exists, the stick/object would rediscover itself and regrow its Cognitive state. 

[Nathrangking]

Perhaps though I am not sold that one could destroy the cognitive aspect of a person in any capacity.

[Calderis]

35 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

My thoughts were that since 2/3 of the person would still exist, that the missing third would eventually rebuild itself. So if it did affect the person in the physical realm, I thought the most it might be would be a temporary catatonic state.

To use the stick as an example, it is constantly saying "I am a stick", but if you were to break its bead (or put out a person's mind flame) it would temporarily stop. However, since it still physically exists, the stick/object would rediscover itself and regrow its Cognitive state. 

The problem here is that an inanimate object and a thinking being present themselves differently. 

Stick was represented by a bead. An inert object, whose Cognitive aspect is merely a representation of its connection to everything else. You harm the bead and those perceptions and connections that formed it, will remake it. 

A living being is represented by a flame. A source of energy and change. Capable of action and self reflection. If it were snuffed out the and the body somehow still lived, the connections and perceptions may be able to create a bead to represent the body, but I doubt they would reignite the flame. 

31 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Perhaps though I am not sold that one could destroy the cognitive aspect of a person in any capacity.

Why not? I disagree with you and @Extesian here. 

Touching one of the flames while physically in the Cognitive Realm should have an effect, both on the flame and the person touching it. I doubt the presentation as a flame is merely cosmetic. 

How exactly would it be "easy" to kill from the Cognitive? You'd have to reach it, and then somehow identify the person you wanted to kill. It would be far far easier to simply kill them. Unless a person were trying to kill indescriminately, using this method would be pointless. Look at the populations of the planets we've seen, and look at the numbers that are even aware that worldhopping is possible, and this isn't exactly a scenario likely to pop up. 

I don't think that there is any reason that a Cognitive aspect is somehow magically protected from being effect in the Cognitive Realm, unless we're shown that it's integration with the physical realm is just to heavy for it to be touched. If that were true though, how can spren be attracted and form a bond in the first place? 

[Yata]

I think that in both of Animate or Inhanimate object, the Cognitive's destruction will carry an "obliterate" effect on the Physical.

The only clue about is really circumstantial therefore I could see how other people may think in another ways.

In the Cosmere (as far as I could rememeber) we know only an istance of Cognitive's damage... yeah I am talking of our beloved Destroy-Evil ex Machina. Nightblood cuts on all three Realms, while we know already the effect of a physical and Spiritual damage (We see this every time with a Shardblade), we didn't see otherwhere else the effect of a Cognitive damage.

The target hits by Nightblood (without his cover) is completely destroyed. I think this happen because Nightblood destroy the Cognitive and the physical simply collapse.
To be honest I also think that destroying or even damaging the Cognitive is really hard as for his own nature is a "flexible" target and problably less likely to be hurt by something.

[Calderis]

@Yata the fact that Nightblood inflicts damage in all three realms, in my opinion, makes him unreliable to gage what the Cognitive Realm effect alone would be. 

By damaging all three simultaneously, he completely removes something from existence. I think the effect would be very different if the damage inflicted were limited to the Cognitive Realm alone, and that the level of damage would be linked to the Cognitive complexity of the target. 

[Yata]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Yata the fact that Nightblood inflicts damage in all three realms, in my opinion, makes him unreliable to gage what the Cognitive Realm effect alone would be. 

By damaging all three simultaneously, he completely removes something from existence. I think the effect would be very different if the damage inflicted were limited to the Cognitive Realm alone, and that the level of damage would be linked to the Cognitive complexity of the target. 

I know and indeed is the reason I said "it's really circumstantial" but Nightblood obliterate something also with a simple scratch something extremelly different from we saw with physical and spiritual damage.

But yeah, this is just an idea of mine and could be horribly wrong

[Shadowmancer]

10 hours ago, Yata said:

I know and indeed is the reason I said "it's really circumstantial" but Nightblood obliterate something also with a simple scratch something extremelly different from we saw with physical and spiritual damage.

But yeah, this is just an idea of mine and could be horribly wrong

I think part of it could be that Nightblood is Invested up to his spheres. We know that a fair amount of Investiture is required to Soulcast an object. What if this is the Awakening equivalent of that? They turn into ash if I remember, but that might just be a side-effect of complete physical disintegration. I don't know, it's just a thought.

[DrakeMarshall]

I don't think you can break the beads in the cognitive realm with mundane means. Similar to how you could basically never break a shardblade (which is a spren, a manifestation of something from the cognitive realm, in the physical world).

I think the only way you can affect things in the cognitive realm, is cognitively. Literally crushing a bead or putting out a flame is a physical procedure, and probably wouldn't do anything to a cognitive aspect of something. The only way to shape the cognitive realm is with the mind, I would guess.

You can't kill a spren by hitting it over the head really hard. But you can kill a spren by something more abstract, like breaking an oath. Because it isn't really physical. It's cognitive.

Similarly, without the interference of some kind of magic, your mental state doesn't really have any direct impact on the physical world.

Unless there is magic involved, for the most part, each realm follows a nice, neat set of rules. Each one stays in its respective boundaries.

 

This principle applies to nightblood, I believe. Like basically any object, nightblood exists in all three realms. Like any object, it is capable of interacting with other entities in all three realms. However, on all three realms, nightblood is geared towards destruction.

In the physical realm, well, Nightblood is a sword. Do I really need to say any more than that?

In the cognitive realm, Nightblood is imprinted with the command "Destroy Evil." I think that qualifies as destructive potential, in a cognitive sense.

In the spiritual realm, Nightblood has heaps of investiture, and is hungry to devour more investiture. That's a lot of spiritually destructive potential.

[FiveLate]

12 hours ago, Drake Marshall said:

 

You can't kill a spren by hitting it over the head really hard. But you can kill a spren by something more abstract, like breaking an oath. Because it isn't really physical. It's cognitive.

Well, we do have at least one other instance that cognitive beings can hurt at the very least, and possibly kill other cognitive beings while in the CR.  While Jansah is in the CR, Ivory mentions that painspren are coming and they need to flee.  Jansah says they are harmless, to which the reply is that they are harmless in PR, but harmmore in the CR.  

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, FiveLate said:

Well, we do have at least one other instance that cognitive beings can hurt at the very least, and possibly kill other cognitive beings while in the CR.  While Jansah is in the CR, Ivory mentions that painspren are coming and they need to flee.  Jansah says they are harmless, to which the reply is that they are harmless in PR, but harmmore in the CR.  

There's also an Oathbringer Spoiler. 

Spoiler

In the Released Kaladin chapter, Syl mentions hunts. If Spren hunt other spren for sport, it kind of implies a quasi-physical relationship in the CR. 

The evidence so far looks like two entities in the Cognitive realm should be able to harm each other. If that damage is lasting? I have no real idea, but it seems like the more complex and self contained a Cognitive being is, the harder it should be to naturally restore itself. 

I mean, if you've enter the Cognitive Realm physically, you become investiture. 

[DrakeMarshall]

22 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Well, we do have at least one other instance that cognitive beings can hurt at the very least, and possibly kill other cognitive beings while in the CR.  While Jansah is in the CR, Ivory mentions that painspren are coming and they need to flee.  Jansah says they are harmless, to which the reply is that they are harmless in PR, but harmmore in the CR.  

Yeah, but can a non-spren hurt a spren?

I think a spren attacking another spren probably qualifies as an attack that is cognitive in nature.

Something like exhaustionspren preying on other spren kind of makes sense, cognitively. I mean, in an abstract sense, exhaustion kind of interferes with thought and emotions. And the spren that exhaustionspren prey upon are basically embodiments of thoughts and emotions.

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

There's also an Oathbringer Spoiler. 

  Hide contents

In the Released Kaladin chapter, Syl mentions hunts. If Spren hunt other spren for sport, it kind of implies a quasi-physical relationship in the CR. 

The evidence so far looks like two entities in the Cognitive realm should be able to harm each other. If that damage is lasting? I have no real idea, but it seems like the more complex and self contained a Cognitive being is, the harder it should be to naturally restore itself. 

I mean, if you've enter the Cognitive Realm physically, you become investiture. 

Spren don't really die, but they can't really naturally "heal" either. So I'd guess the damage is pretty lasting. Probably, any damage would last indefinitely, but an outside force could repair it.

The WoB says you become investiture when you enter the cognitive realm, yes. It is possible that such an action would allow you to interact with the cognitive.

 

Even so, I think "physical" interactions between cognitive objects are not the most effective. I doubt even a radiant spren could crush one of those glass beads.

Because think about it. Those glass beads represent how an object perceives itself, and how others perceive it.

Is there very much you can do to just destroy that? It's kind of immutable. You can't just stop everybody from thinking about an object. Even in the very act of attempting to crush the bead, you yourself would be thinking about the object.

 

Also, imagine something like the fire in SH. It wasn't a real fire, it was the cognitive shadow of a fire. And I don't think Kelsier could have burned his hand if he put it in the fire. Because interactions in the cognitive realm follow different rules, I think.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said:

Even so, I think "physical" interactions between cognitive objects are not the most effective. I doubt even a radiant spren could crush one of those glass beads.

Because think about it. Those glass beads represent how an object perceives itself, and how others perceive it.

Is there very much you can do to just destroy that? It's kind of immutable. You can't just stop everybody from thinking about an object. Even in the very act of attempting to crush the bead, you yourself would be thinking about the object.

 

Also, imagine something like the fire in SH. It wasn't a real fire, it was the cognitive shadow of a fire. And I don't think Kelsier could have burned his hand if he put it in the fire. Because interactions in the cognitive realm follow different rules, I think.

I think we envision these in opposite ways, but for the same reasons. 

I pick the beads as easily breakable precisely because they literally only exist due to external perception/connections. There is no true mind to them. 

So I think they could be easily damaged because there's nothing internal to maintain their structure, but at the same time it would be pointless. 

Imagine your in a dream, and there's a vase on the table next to you. You pick up the vase and smash it into the wall and it shatters and you feel smugly satisfied that you destroyed this inanimate thing for no real compelling reason. You turn around to sit back down, and there the vase is on the table next to your chair, whole and unmarred, as if nothing happened. 

That's kind of how I picture the beads. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Calderis

[Shadowmancer]

I have to mention, we already know a way to destroy beads. Soulcasting. You turn an entity into a new substance, destroying it's cognitive presence and creating a new one -- or just spreading it out among a mass of other presences, like when Jasnah

Spoiler

Soulcast people into oblivion, or turned a rope into smoke.

So yes, it is possible to destroy a bead -- by Soulcasting it. A flame? You can affect that too, as far as we've seen. All it requires is Investiture and (we assume) a Nahel bond.

[Nathrangking]

 @Shadowmancer That is not pure destruction, but rather transformation. None argue about transforming the question is about unmitigated wholesale destruction in the CR.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Shadowmancer]

@Nathrangking I understand the distinction you're making. But destruction is just transformation. As Syl says in WoR

Quote

"You're the strange ones. Break a rock, and it's still there. Break a spren and she's still there. Sort of. Break a person, and something leaves. Something changes. What's left is just meat. You're weird."

[WoR pg 1044]

Matter and energy (and, in my mind, spren and other cognitive representations) can't be destroyed, only transformed. Even Nightblood leaves behind some ash. Breaking something in the PR still leaves behind a residue, but it is destroyed. The only way to fully get rid of it is to dump it into a Shardpool where (I assume) it dissolves into energy/Investiture. Essentially, chemical bonds are broken, and in the case of a living creature its body becomes unable to support a connection to the SR and CR. Breaking something in the SR ... well we've only seen Hemalurgy do any "breaking" and that, again, means the breaking of bonds and forging of new ones. The CR works the same way, in my mind. A person fights to survive in the PR. Even something as simple as a stick [see WoR pg 144] wants to stay a stick, and a rope [see Jasnah's spoiler] wants to stay a rope, but their very identity can be destroyed, ripped from them as they are transformed into something new. The idea is broken, the identity is shattered and made into something new. Soulcasting is a very powerful use of Investiture, one that I'm sure we're going to see more of in the Cosmere.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Shadowmancer
Citations

[FiveLate]

So a bit of a thought experiment like Schrodinger's cat....

What happens if you soulcast something that has been in its present state for a long time....like say a puller of rock into smoke.  The break its bead in the CR.  Does it return to rock?

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I imagine that the bead since the bead identified as smoke before being broken, that it would return as a smoke bead. I don't think that it would return as a rock bead since the soul caster managed to override its original cognitive template.

[FiveLate]

2 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I imagine that the bead since the bead identified as smoke before being broken, that it would return as a smoke bead. I don't think that it would return as a rock bead since the soul caster managed to override its original cognitive template.

Yes...but...breaking the bead should break the over write to smoke. Yes?  So since it has thought of itself as stone for so long, shouldn't it come back as stone?

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

1 hour ago, FiveLate said:

Yes...but...breaking the bead should break the over write to smoke. Yes?  So since it has thought of itself as stone for so long, shouldn't it come back as stone?

I don't think so. The way I see it, soul casting seems to tell an object "you are now this" and as a result it forgets its previous existence. We never see other objects return to their "original" state after soul casting, so I don't think it's a function of time.

If we go by my theory from before, when you soul cast a bead you change its cognitive aspect, which causes a change in the physical realm. If you were to then destroy the bead (the cognitive portion), it would use its remaining aspects (the physical and spiritual) to rebuild itself. Since the physical and spiritual aspects don't have memory or thought, the object would only know of its present existence and use this as a template for its new cognitive bead.

This is just my best guess though, so it's possible it might have some other affect.