Secret Society Radiants

[Toaster Retribution]

The number of Secret Societies on Roshar seems to be an important part in the story, and they all seem like antagonist material right now. However, if they are going to face off against our beloved Radiants, they will need some sort of power to be a threat (no Mraize, your blowgun won't do the trick) so it is logical to assume that some of the secret society members might end up as Radiants themselves. 

So, do you guys think that the Societies will get a bunch of Radiants? Will they try to hack the system, or get it the normal route?And which members have Radiant potential?

[aemetha]

I think some of the Sons of Honor may well become radiants. I think that for some they may experience a driving motivation to redress their terrible mistake that makes them very suitable to certain orders.

Ghostbloods are hard to say, we don't really know their motivations. They seem to oppose the Sons of Honor, so it's possible they are fighting for team Roshar using methods that we haven't seen yet in the radiants we've seen. They are world hoppers, at least some of them, so it's possible rather than fighting for team Roshar, they are fighting for team stop-Odium. If that's the case I'm not sure if they'll become radiants. I think it would be a mistake to underestimate Mraize, the blowgun is a passing fancy. He's likely a world hopper and may have magics and technologies from other worlds. Blow gun - not so scary. Aluminium rifle and bullets - now you're worrying a radiant.

The diagram could quite easily become radiants I think. I don't think the ends justify the means philosophy they adopt disqualifies them from certain orders, and dustbringers in particular are referenced in respect to scorched earth and described as not behaving terribly differently from voidbringers for all their protestations against the confusion in the names.

The 17th shard I doubt will become radiants. They seem far more concerned with stopping Hoid than with the fate of Roshar.

[maxal]

21 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The number of Secret Societies on Roshar seems to be an important part in the story, and they all seem like antagonist material right now. However, if they are going to face off against our beloved Radiants, they will need some sort of power to be a threat (no Mraize, your blowgun won't do the trick) so it is logical to assume that some of the secret society members might end up as Radiants themselves. 

So, do you guys think that the Societies will get a bunch of Radiants? Will they try to hack the system, or get it the normal route?And which members have Radiant potential?

I think there are chances Taravangian will become another Bondsmith, but one who's methods are directly opposed to Dalinar. He might have his horde of followers and he might serve to highlight the danger of reforming the Radiants without the support of... Radiants. We tend to forget our Radiants aren't Radiants: they all are trainees and because they are trainees, they might still fail, they might make massive mistakes ought not being broken and not having said enough oaths.

It may be causing a civil war, slaughtering innocents in order to get easier control over those who'll survive is the fastest way towards creating a "unity", but by doing so you are also destroying the countries military, crippling it and well it isn't a very moral thing to do. I would love to see such paths to ultimately turned out to be bad, to be discredit by future oaths. I would hate if Taranvangian ways ended up being praised within the story, but him as a "villain" Radiant would definitely be interesting.

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, aemetha said:

I think some of the Sons of Honor may well become radiants.

Sons of Honor are all about "ends justify the means" and that is in direct opposition to values of Radiants.

[Nathrangking]

I don't know that any of the members of the secret societies that we have seen will be able to articulate even the first oath to fruition. The nightbloods do not value life at all so their out immediately as are the diagramists. Only the sons of honor may be able to say the first part of the oath without earning a metaphorical laugh from the cosmere. Though they have no trouble following through with ends justify the means which nullifies the third part of the oath. They all have some shards and other unknown toys up their sleeve's they wont want for ways to fight against radiant's without becoming KR themselves.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Calderis]

The ends justifying the means invalidates the first oath in the viewpoint we get from Envisigers via Teft, and by Syl and therefore the Windrunners. This is not universal. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1181#26

Quote

ANDREWHB

Is Niccolo Machiavelli's political theory, the ends justify the means, incompatible with the Knights Radiants' First Oath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Although many of the Orders of KRs would find Machiavelli's theory that the ends justify the means incompatible with additional Oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. Brandon said that the Skybreakers where a Machiavellian could find a home.

QUESTION

As Brandon was signing my books, I asked if the Elsecallers would also accept a Machiavellian.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

So at least two orders could interpret the first oath very very differently. 

[Emerald101]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

So at least two orders could interpret the first oath very very differently. 

Either that, or, as some have postulated, the first Ideal was added on later and doesn't actually hold realmatic weight.

[Nathrangking]

Even if a machiavellian would be acceptable for some I doubt people who kill without conscience or descrimination would be ok especially for the skybreakers. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Nathrangking

[Calderis]

13 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Even if a machiavellian would be acceptable for some I doubt people who kill without conscience or descrimination would be ok especially for the skybreakers. 

As long as those deaths adhere to the law, the Skybreakers could flat out enjoy it and it would be within their rules by what we've seen so far 

[Grahamfactor]

I agree that it's fairly likely that the secret societies will have access to powered individuals; whether it is some brand of voidbinding, off-world magic, fabrials, heraldic powers, or some other source.  Most of these organizations are actively looking for power; it would be surprising if they don't find it.  Alternatively, with some new power sources being able to bridge the gap from the cognitive to the physical, the secret societies seem like willing vehicles to deploy that power.

That said, all of the Radiants we have seen so far have been genuinely committed to some type of goodness or at least righteousness.  Their methods and even actions can range from selfless and heroic (for the most part, Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar/Lift/Ym), to hypertechnical, criminal, or even evil (think Jasnah's murders, or the Skybreakers' actions in general).  But I think that highlights one of the main points of the series, and perhaps even the cosmere in general--that commitment to a single ideal, no matter how laudable in the abstract, leaves too much wiggle room to justify one's actions (think Kaladin and Moash betraying Elhokar to "protect" the kingdom).  In real life, every laudable ideal requires context and an understanding of its limitations.  But on Roshar, spren give power to those who demonstrate singular devotion to one of the Radiant ideals representing some form of good in the world.

Of the secret societies, the only one who appear to have thought they were genuinely doing good were the Sons of Honor.  Gavilar was committed to the codes (and other objectives described in the Oathbringer prologue), and Amaram truly believed he did the right thing when he killed Kaladin's men and branded him a slave.  So I could see a Son of Honor attracting a spren based on that self-assured committment to "honor."  Amaram as a Radiant would be quite the twist, as would Amaram with an honorblade pretending to be a Radiant.

For the others, Taravangian has an element of doing good (trying to save humanity), but his "Diagram" appears to be influencing his followers to do things that would harm humanity.  My guess is that he has attracted the attention of a spren--but not the sort spren that would make one a Radiant.  The Ghostbloods appear to have no committment to any ideal, so it is hard to see them becoming a Radiant.  

[Nathrangking]

True, but what we have seen thus far have not exactly adhered to law and order. Amraam may have thought himself in the right , but as far as legal justification or otherwise there is little ground to stand on. Their reasons are flimsy and what they did was deplorable.

[Grahamfactor]

Yes, but that is also true of Jasnah and the Skybreakers.  For Jasnah, hiring assassins and murderous vigilantism is both illegal and deplorable, at least in the real world.  Jasnah's violence against traitors and attempted murderers/rapists is one thing; the Skybreakers are killing relative innocents.  The Skybreakers may hide behind the law, but they are seen pursuing their objectives by persuading others to change the apparent in-world legal norms (e.g., by authorizing execution without trials in otherwise highly process-driven legal systems).  So the Skybreakers change the law to get away with murder.  They are committed to legalism, not true justice.

But that's a tangent.  The point is that I don't think Amaram is any different than the Skybreakers from the perspective of taking innocent life; they both do it in the name of saving Roshar and in the name of some ideal.  The fact that they have different justifications means that Amaram can't be a Skybreaker; it doesn't mean that his actions or the actions of the other Sons of Honor would disqualify them from being Radiants.  We've seen that you can do very bad things and be a Radiant.  In-world, as long as you are totally committed to one aspect of doing "good," you can be a Radiant regardless of how bad your actions would be seen when viewed through other lenses of morality.  

[Nathrangking]

The key word I think is relative innocents they are not truly taking justiceinto their own hands and deciding that that is is the law .They are following the law if the most extreme interpretation of it. Even Jasnah killed those who were guilty of committing awful crimes. The Sons of honor make no qualms about killing those who have literally done nothing so long as it gets them to their goal .That is a stark difference between what the sons of honor have done and what  the others have done you may be able to get away with doing the wrong thing, but we have yet to see any who have been accepted and were as indescriminate as they are. They may also keep to an "ideal", however that may not be enough to earn them spren considering the severity of what they do and in fact the despicable nature of their goal.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Nathrangking

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Grahamfactor said:

Of the secret societies, the only one who appear to have thought they were genuinely doing good were the Sons of Honor.  Gavilar was committed to the codes (and other objectives described in the Oathbringer prologue), and Amaram truly believed he did the right thing when he killed Kaladin's men and branded him a slave.  So I could see a Son of Honor attracting a spren based on that self-assured committment to "honor."  Amaram as a Radiant would be quite the twist, as would Amaram with an honorblade pretending to be a Radiant.

This is where I may be disagreeing with you. As far as I can tell, the Sons of Honor are not committed to any level of good. Gavilar's crusade to unite Alethkar seemed to sprout from no other desire but to reinforce his personal glory. His desire to launch a new Desolation might have had for purpose to bring back the Heralds, but its real goal was to unite Alethkar against a common thread because Gavilar felt his kingdom is not strong enough. Even before he finished uniting it, Gavilar was obsessed over it out-lasting him.

I thus disagree the Sons of Honor are somewhat "better individuals" because they adhere to some notion of good: nothing within their goal is good. I read them as worst as the Diagramists. The Diagramists want to save humanity from the Desolation, not launch it. They are misguided in thinking Taravangian cannot be wrong on his very smart day.

I also do not think Amaram is thinking killing Kaladin's squad is a good action based on his moral frame. My reading of his character is he knew he did bad, but did it nonetheless. I really don't see any commitment made in the name of Amaram or the Sons of Honor which may embrace any ideal defended by the sprens.

This being said, I wouldn't mind him carrying a Honorblade and creating ruckus. Now that would be interesting and satisfying. I mean, someone's got to carry those Honorblades and Amaram as a conflicted villain with super-powers might just be a great plot twist.

[Calderis]

@Grahamfactor I agree with almost everything you said. 

The only reason I think Amaram would be unable to draw a spren is that he has shown shame towards his own actions.

Gavilar was a Son and he is a confirmed proto-bondsmith. He was dedicated to his cause and believed it was the right course of action. He was trying to bring about the same thing, as evidenced by Amaram's own words. 

Amaram is dedicated to Gavilar's cause and believes the goal is correct, but he is ashamed of his own actions. 

That's the difference to me. It's not just about believing that your actions are justified, it's about believing they are right. 

I don't believe Amaram believes that. He's just willing to do wrong for a worthy goal. Kaladin killing Syl is proof that doesn't work. 

[Emerald101]

Kaladin killing Syl is only proof that it doesn't work for a Windrunner. I read that as a violation of "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right", even though he swears that later in the book. We don't have conclusive proof that a radiant acting in a manner they perceive as justified but wrong is a violation of any oaths, and the quote with reference to Machiavelli which was cited earlier implies otherwise. 

[+Extesian]

I find it hard to judge entire societies based on the little we know. But my favorite WoB on Sons of Honor is this, not because they're necessarily bad, but because they're wrong.  

Quote

QUESTION

Another interesting thing I heard was when he was explaining a little about the secret organizations to a young lady who was a fairly new fan.

BRANDON SANDERSON

I didn’t hear the exact question, but Brandon spoke with certainty when he said that Amaram and Gavilar were Sonsof Honor. I had taken Gavilar’s involvement with a grain of salt to this point. He also said that we know the most about their purpose–to return the Voidbringers as a means of making the Heralds return–and they they were the “most wrong.” He said that we can pretty much infer the purposes of the diagram group through the epigraphs and text. He said we basically don’t know anything about the Ghostbloods’ purposes. (which matches what Mraize told Shallan. I am very excited to find out more about them and if they know Hoid)

 

[Toaster Retribution]

Personally I find it interesting that so many disqualifies the Ghostbloods so easily. As @Extesian's WoB said, we know next to nothing about them or their goals. They are admittedly willing to kill eachother for power, and Mraize referred to torturing Shallan as "fun". However, we dont know their goal, or who they are. I think that they will end up being morally grey characters, and that some of them might have shots at becoming Radiants.

When it comes to the Diagram, I really do believe that there is Radiant potential. The Diagrammists are not bad people, and while the Windrunners wouldnt accept them, others would. I like the Taravangian Bondsmith idea, and I also think that other characters in the organization has a chance (fingers crossed for Graves).

[Calderis]

@Toaster Retribution totally with you there. 

I think what we've been shown so far rules out the ability to judge whole factions, period. 

There will be individuals capable in every group I think, some just more likely than others. Without knowing the Ghostblood goals... We can't even debate likely hood. 

[aemetha]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

Without knowing the Ghostblood goals

Nonsense. It's quite apparent that the ghostbloods are Hoids lackeys employed to visit the violence upon his foes that he himself is incapable of .

On a more serious note though, the one main thing that we do have a very good idication about regarding the ghostbloods would seem to suggest they are unlikely to want to bind themselves to the Rosharan system. For that reason I think they (and the 17th shard) are unlikely to want to become radiants.

[Toaster Retribution]

On 6 augusti 2017 at 10:51 PM, aemetha said:

I think it would be a mistake to underestimate Mraize, the blowgun is a passing fancy. He's likely a world hopper and may have magics and technologies from other worlds. Blow gun - not so scary. Aluminium rifle and bullets - now you're worrying a radiant.

This is badass. I hope this ends up true. I would love to see Mraize fight Radiants with a rifle.

11 hours ago, aemetha said:

On a more serious note though, the one main thing that we do have a very good idication about regarding the ghostbloods would seem to suggest they are unlikely to want to bind themselves to the Rosharan system. For that reason I think they (and the 17th shard) are unlikely to want to become radiants.

They won't bind themselves to the system: 

Quote

QUESTION

So if I’m a Surgebinder and I have my own Cognitive entity with me, can I go off-world with that and [have] everything continue to work in exactly the same way? Because we’ve seen Cognitive entities that--

BRANDON SANDERSON

So...taking a Cognitive entity off-world is hard. So, Surgebinding, if you can find out how to make it happen, remember, the Investiture is keyed to Connection. This is why Kelsier is--Oh, sorry, spoilers! When a certain somebody [laughter] getting off Scadrial, because he basically was a spren by that point so…[laughter] So, yeah Surgebinding would work off planet, but you’d have to get the spren off first. It’s hard to do. Well, Cosmere-wide it’s not hard hard...You could learn how.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ghostbloods know how, and actually wants to bond spren and become Radiants. I doubt it is their main goal, but it could be a perk for some of them.

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is badass. I hope this ends up true. I would love to see Mraize fight Radiants with a rifle.

They won't bind themselves to the system: 

It wouldn't surprise me if the Ghostbloods know how, and actually wants to bond spren and become Radiants. I doubt it is their main goal, but it could be a perk for some of them.

I agree. There's also the whole bit that it would help them with their goals on Roshar, and if they decide to leave Roshar and don't know how to take their spren... Then they just don't take their spren. 

The Radiant and Spren separate. The bond degrades due to proximity... And that's that. 

[Tesh]

@Toaster Retribution You should check out the Surgefinders. Most of us are Radiants.  ( See my signature. The link is not the first link, but the second).

[Toaster Retribution]

23 hours ago, Tesh said:

@Toaster Retribution You should check out the Surgefinders. Most of us are Radiants.  ( See my signature. The link is not the first link, but the second).

Thanks for the tip. Dunno if roleplaying Surgefinding is my thing, but if I ever feel like checking it out, I know where to go.

[Tesh]

35 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Thanks for the tip. Dunno if roleplaying Surgefinding is my thing, but if I ever feel like checking it out, I know where to go.

I was just bored so I put that here. I don't know what I  honestly thought would happen.